Difference between revisions of "Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods"

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{{Main Page}}  
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{{FAIRAnalysisHeader
 
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|title=''One Nation Under Gods''
 
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|author=Richard Abanes
 
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|section=
 
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|previous=
 
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|notes={{AuthorsDisclaimer}}
 
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*Other works by this author: [[Becoming Gods]]
 
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}}
 
  
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=About this work=
 
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==Quick navigation==
 
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*[[/Overview|Overview]]—[[/Index|Index of claims]]—[[/Use of sources|Use of sources]]—[[/Loaded and prejudicial language|Loaded and prejudicial language]]—[[/Absurd claims|Absurd claims]]—[[/Presentism|Presentism]]—[[/Mind reading|Mind reading]]—[[/Rewording secondary sources|Rewording secondary sources]]—[[/Sarcasm|Sarcasm]]
 
  
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==Notable and quotable==
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{{To learn more box:responses to: Richard Abanes}}
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<blockquote>
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{{H1
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''[T]o be honest, your FAIR analysis of the hardbound is actually hurting you in some very interesting ways -- and you don't even know it. Suffice it to say, I have been enjoying the many times I've had the pleasure of point out to lots of Mormons (many of them now former Mormons) where FAIR has not been completely honest, and where FAIR has shown itself to be terrifically nit-picky and petty. I thank you.''
+
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods
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<br>&mdash;The author, commenting on FAIR's previous analysis of this work]. [http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=39390&st=180 Posted to ''Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board''], Nov. 21, 2008
+
|H=Response to ''One Nation Under Gods''
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</blockquote>
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|S=
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|L1=
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|T=One Nation Under Gods
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|A=Richard Abanes
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|>=[[Becoming Gods]]
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}}
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{{ChartOneNationUnderGodsSummary}}
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<onlyinclude>
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{{H2
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|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods
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|H=Response to claims made in ''One Nation Under Gods'' by Richard Abanes
 +
|S=In early 2002 a new book entitled One Nation under Gods (ONUG) appeared on bookshelves, promising to tell the "real" history of the Mormon Church. The author attempts to pull disparate sources together to paint a picture that, when compared to objective reality, more closely resembles a Picasso than a Rembrandt—skewed and distorted—obscuring and maligning the actual doctrines and beliefs as understood and practiced by members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for more than 150 years. FairMormon's original review of ''One Nation Under Gods'' was of the original 2002 hardback edition. The author has responded that there were editorial problems with this edition. We acknowledge that corrections were made in the paperback edition released in 2003 in response to some of the original reviews. Consequently, all previous FairMormon reviews have been edited for accuracy and tone, and the paperback edition of this work has been evaluated on its own merits. (It should be noted that the corrected paperback edition bears no markings indicating that it is a second edition or an updated edition; it simply appears as a paperback edition of the original.) This is an index of claims made in this work with links to corresponding responses. An effort has been made to provide the author's original sources where possible. In the subarticles linked below the hardback edition is represented by "HB" and the paperback edition by "PB."
 +
|L1=Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Introduction: A Thread of Prophecy"
 +
|L2=Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 1: Vagabond Visionaries"
 +
|L3=Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 2: Moroni, Magic, and Masonry"
 +
|L4=Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 3: From Profit to Prophet"
 +
|L5=Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 4: Smith's Golden Book"
 +
|L6=Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 5: People of Zion"
 +
|L7=Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 6: No Rest for the Righteous"
 +
|L8=Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 7: Woe In Ohio"
 +
|L9=Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 8: Big Trouble In Little Missouri"
 +
|L10=Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 9: March to Martyrdom"
 +
|L11=Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 10: A New Beginning"
 +
|L12=Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 11: Bloody Brigham"
 +
|L13=Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 12: Wars and Rumors of Wars"
 +
|L14=Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 13: Unholy Matrimony"
 +
|L15=Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 14: The Politics of Compromise"
 +
|L16=Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 15: Making the Transition"
 +
|L17=Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 16: Mormon Racism: Black Is Not Beautiful"
 +
|L18=Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 17: Is Mormonism Christian"
 +
|L19=Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 18: Cover-Ups, Conspiracies, and Controversies"
 +
|L20=Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Postscript" (paperback only)
 +
|L21=Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Appendix A: Abraham's Book?"
 +
|L22=Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Appendix B: Failed Joseph Smith Prophecies"
 +
|L23=Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Appendix C: Recommended Resources"
 +
}}
 +
</onlyinclude>
 +
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Introduction}}
 +
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Chapter 1}}
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{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Chapter 2}}
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{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Chapter 3}}
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{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Chapter 4}}
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{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Chapter 5}}
 +
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Chapter 6}}
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{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Chapter 7}}
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{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Chapter 8}}
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{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Chapter 9}}
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{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Chapter 10}}
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{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Chapter 11}}
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{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Chapter 12}}
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{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Chapter 13}}
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{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Chapter 14}}
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{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Chapter 15}}
 +
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Chapter 16}}
 +
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Chapter 17}}
 +
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Chapter 18}}
 +
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Index/Postscript}}
 +
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Appendix A}}
 +
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Appendix B}}
 +
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Appendix C}}
  
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<blockquote>
+
{{SummaryItem
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''...what ONUG [One Nation Under Gods] did was to provide needed information to non-Mormons, evangelicals, secularists, and from what I hear, even many Mormons (many of whom, thanks to ONUG, are no longer Mormons).''
+
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Overview
−
<br>&mdash;The author, commenting on the value of his book. [http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=39797&st=120 Posted to ''Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board''], Dec. 7, 2008
+
|subject=Overview
−
</blockquote>
+
|Summary=
 +
}}
 +
{{Epigraph|...after seven years, FAIR has been able to raise only twenty-seven objections to a book weighing in at 651 pages (471 pages of main text + nearly 150 pages of endnotes + bibliography + indexes). Particularly interesting is how most these so-called errors-mistakes (minus the ones too petty to even address) have all been resolved in the paperback version.''  
 +
<br>
 +
&mdash;The author, posted on his [https://web.archive.org/web/20081225233812/http://abanes.com/Errata2.html website "ERRATA FOR ONE NATION UNDER GODS"] (Dec. 2008 - web page has since been removed. This link goes to the web archive for the page)
 +
}}
 +
{{parabreak}}
  
−
==Overview==
+
==== ====
−
It should be noted that the author's response to the list of problems documented by FAIR is that the editing on the hardback edition of ''One Nation Under Gods'' (ONUG) was incomplete and that many of the problems were corrected in the paperback edition, published a year later. (This corrected paperback edition bears no markings indicating that it is a second edition or an updated edition; it simply appears as a paperback edition of the original.) This review primarily treats the paperback edition of this work, with an acknowledgment of corrections made by the author to the hardback edition.
+
{{SummaryItem
 +
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Notes
 +
|subject=Notes
 +
|summary=Responses to claims made in "Notes" (473-617) (PB)
 +
}}
  
−
In early 2002 a new book entitled One Nation under Gods (ONUG) appeared on bookshelves, promising to tell the "real" history of the Mormon Church. In the words of its author,
+
{{SummaryItem
 +
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Use of sources
 +
|subject=Source analysis
 +
|summary=An examination and response to how the author of ''One Nation Under Gods'' interprets the sources used to support this work, indexed by page number.
 +
}}
 +
{{SummaryItem
 +
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Loaded and prejudicial language
 +
|subject=Loaded and prejudicial language
 +
|summary=An examination of how the author employs loaded and prejudicial language in this work in order to discredit Mormonism.
 +
}}
 +
{{SummaryItem
 +
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Absurd claims
 +
|subject=Absurd claims
 +
|summary=Some of the claims made in this work are simply absurd. We list and respond to those claims here.
 +
}}
 +
{{SummaryItem
 +
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Presentism
 +
|subject=Presentism
 +
|summary=“Presentism” is an analytical fallacy in which past behavior is evaluated by modern standards or mores. We examine some of our favorite examples of this fallacy in ''One Nation Under Gods''.
 +
}}
 +
{{SummaryItem
 +
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Mind reading
 +
|subject=Mind reading
 +
|summary=The author often attempts to interpret what Joseph was thinking as a way to lead the reader to a predetermined conclusion regarding Joseph Smith.  
 +
}}
 +
{{SummaryItem
 +
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Rewording secondary sources
 +
|subject=Rewording secondary sources
 +
|summary=A list of paragraphs which echo the prose of Fawn Brodie's ''No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith''.
 +
}}
 +
{{SummaryItem
 +
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Sarcasm
 +
|subject=Sarcasm
 +
|summary=The author of ''One Nation Under Gods'' uses sarcasm to belittle what he claims to be LDS beliefs and doctrine.
 +
}}
 +
</onlyinclude>
  
−
<blockquote>
+
==About this work==
−
''It is beyond legitimate dispute that the Mormon church has for decades been painting for the general public a decidedly biased picture of the Latter-day Saint faith, especially with regard to the origins of the Book of Mormon. Fortunately, a more objective sketch of Mormonism's earliest years can be drawn using non-LDS witnesses, secular media articles, and private journals (Mormon and non-Mormon).''
 
−
 
 
−
''All of these sources will be used in this book to discover how Mormonism's founder&mdash;Joseph Smith&mdash;formed, controlled, and expanded his church, which today is one of the wealthiest and most influential religions in the world.'' [ONUG, xvi]
 
−
</blockquote>
 
−
 
 
−
With his thesis stated and his purpose laid bare, the author attempts to pull disparate sources together to paint a picture that, when compared to objective reality, more closely resembles a Picasso than a Rembrandt&mdash;skewed and distorted&mdash;obscuring and maligning the actual doctrines and beliefs as understood and practiced by members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for more than 150 years.
 
−
 
 
−
{{Main|One Nation Under Gods/Overview|l1=An Overview of "One Nation Under Gods"}}
 
−
 
 
−
==Claims made in this work==
 
 
<blockquote>
 
<blockquote>
 
''[M]ore than a few Mormons, although they had never actually read my book, declared without hesitation that it was rife with errors.''
 
''[M]ore than a few Mormons, although they had never actually read my book, declared without hesitation that it was rife with errors.''
Line 48: Line 129:
 
</blockquote>
 
</blockquote>
  
−
We did indeed read the book. This is an index of claims made in this work with links to corresponding responses within the FAIRwiki. An effort has been made to provide the author's original sources where possible.
+
We did indeed read the book (both the Hardback and the Paperback), thoroughly. They are, and continue to be, rife with errors.
−
{{Main|One Nation Under Gods/Index|l1=Index to claims made in ''One Nation Under Gods''}}
 
  
−
==Source analysis==
+
==Quotes from the author==
−
This section performs a detailed analysis of the use of selected sources by this work.
+
<blockquote>
 +
''[T]o be honest, your FAIR analysis of the hardbound is actually hurting you in some very interesting ways&mdash;and you don't even know it. Suffice it to say, I have been enjoying the many times I've had the pleasure of point out to lots of Mormons (many of them now former Mormons) where FAIR has not been completely honest, and where FAIR has shown itself to be terrifically nit-picky and petty. I thank you.''
 +
<br>&mdash;The author, commenting on FAIR's previous analysis of this work. Posted to ''Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board'', Nov. 21, 2008
 +
</blockquote>
  
−
{{Main|One Nation Under Gods/Use of sources|l1=Source analysis of selections from ''One Nation Under Gods''}}
 
−
 
−
==Loaded and prejudicial language==
 
−
There are many instances in this work which employ loaded or prejudicial language in order to lead the reader to a specific conclusion. A number of instances of this practice are documented in this section.
 
−
 
−
{{Main|/Loaded and prejudicial language|l1=Loaded and prejudicial language}}
 
−
 
−
==Absurd claims==
 
 
<blockquote>
 
<blockquote>
−
''Unlike most men, however, Jesus did not need these wives, nor temple rituals to become a god. He became a god before coming to earth through perfect obedience to Elohim's commands. For others the road to godhood is far more difficult and takes considerably longer.''
+
''...what ONUG [One Nation Under Gods] did was to provide needed information to non-Mormons, evangelicals, secularists, and from what I hear, even many Mormons (many of whom, thanks to ONUG, are no longer Mormons).''
−
<br>
+
<br>&mdash;The author, commenting on the value of his book. Posted to ''Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board'', Dec. 7, 2008
−
&mdash;The author, stating that Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus Christ took the easier road to godhood. ''One Nation Under Gods'', p. 288
 
 
</blockquote>
 
</blockquote>
−
{{parabreak}}
 
−
Some claims made in this work are simply absurd to the point of being unrecognizable by any practicing Latter-day Saint. Some of these claims are discussedd in this section.
 
  
−
{{Main|/Absurd claims|l1=Absurd claims}}
 
−
 
−
==Presentism==
 
−
Sometimes authors of Church related historical works apply twenty-first century values to 19th century people. This section documents such instances in this work.
 
−
 
−
{{Main|/Presentism|l1=Presentism}}
 
−
 
−
==Mind reading==
 
−
Authors sometimes assume that they can deduce the thoughts, dreams and motivations of long-dead historical figures. This section documents instances of "mind reading" found in this work.
 
−
 
−
{{Main|/Mind reading|l1=Mind reading}}
 
−
 
−
==Rewording secondary sources==
 
−
Sometimes when reading a work critical of the Church, we feel that we've seen the flow of concepts and sometimes even similar wording somewhere before. This section documents some such instances in this work.
 
−
{{Main|/Rewording secondary sources|l1=Rewording secondary sources}}
 
−
 
−
==Sarcasm==
 
 
<blockquote>
 
<blockquote>
−
''Well, all I can say is, I combat the errors of the ages. I solve mathematical problems of universities, with truth—diamond truth; and God is my 'right hand man.' God made Aaron to be the mouth piece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in His stead...I have more to boast of than ever any man had....I boast that no man ever did such a work as I.''
+
''Props to FAIR for reacting so quickly to my responses to what they had kept up at their website for 5 years. After my refutation of their so-called critique of ''One Nation Under Gods was posted'', it took them about 1-2 weeks to take everything down. Good job, FAIR!''
−
<br>
+
<br>&mdash;The author, responding to this "so-called" critique. The statement, however, is not accurate. The original 27 articles were taken off the FAIR website and moved ''here'' to the FAIR Wiki, where over 100 ''new'' articles were added. Posted to ''Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board'', May 14, 2009
−
''Oh, wait, all of that material has been already used. Sorry. Nevermind. Sorry, my bad.''
 
−
<br>
 
−
&mdash;The author, using a [[/Use of sources/Joseph Smith's Narcissism|compound quote that he created from multiple sources]] in ''One Nation Under Gods'' to ridicule Joseph Smith, [http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=39797&hl=i%20combat%20the%20errors%20of%20the%20ages&st=20 Posted to ''Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board''], Dec. 4, 2008
 
 
</blockquote>
 
</blockquote>
 
{{parabreak}}
 
{{parabreak}}
  
−
Sometimes, the author simply resorts to sarcasm regarding beliefs which Latter-day Saints hold sacred and about their belief that Joseph Smith was a prophet. This section discusses some of those instances.
+
It should be noted that the author's response to the list of problems documented by FAIR is that the editing on the hardback edition of ''One Nation Under Gods'' (ONUG) was incomplete and that many of the problems were corrected in the paperback edition, published a year later. (This corrected paperback edition bears no markings indicating that it is a second edition or an updated edition; it simply appears as a paperback edition of the original.) This review primarily treats the paperback edition of this work, with an acknowledgment of corrections made by the author to the hardback edition.
  
−
{{Main|/Sarcasm|l1=Sarcasm}}
+
In early 2002 a new book entitled One Nation under Gods (ONUG) appeared on bookshelves, promising to tell the "real" history of the Mormon Church. In the words of its author,
  
−
<!-- Commenting out until I figure out which subpages these items fit in. I'm going to make this top level page a summary page only - RN
+
<blockquote>
−
==Quote mining, selective quotation and distortion==
+
''It is beyond legitimate dispute that the Mormon church has for decades been painting for the general public a decidedly biased picture of the Latter-day Saint faith, especially with regard to the origins of the Book of Mormon. Fortunately, a more objective sketch of Mormonism's earliest years can be drawn using non-LDS witnesses, secular media articles, and private journals (Mormon and non-Mormon).''
−
===Non-existent quotes===
 
−
{{BeginQuoteMiningTable}}
 
−
|281
 
−
||The author quotes Brigham Young as saying "We shall pull the wool over the eyes of the American people and make them swallow Mormonism, polygamy and all."
 
−
||
 
−
From the author's cited source, it cannot be determined that Brigham ever actually said this.
 
−
||
 
−
*E.A. Folk, "The Story of Mormonism," which in turn is cited in ''Proceedings Before The Committee On Privileges And Elections Of The United States Senate In The Matter Of The Protests Against The Right Of Hon. Reed Smoot, A Senator From Utah, To Hold His Seat'' (Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1904), vol. 1, 15. E.A. Folk was the editor of the ''Baptist and Reflector'', a Nashville, Tennessee paper published by the Tennessee Baptist association. His source for the alleged quote cannot be verified.
 
−
*The commonly used source for this quote is "The Manifesto," ''Millennial Star'' 52 (24 Nov. 1890): 744. There is no mention of this quotation anywhere in the cited article.  See [http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/u?/MStar,33220 scan of original] at: "The Manifesto," ''Millennial Star'' 52 (24 Nov. 1890): 744.
 
−
{{EndQuoteMiningTable}}
 
−
'''Commentary'''
 
−
* The author seems to have relied on a secondary source without verifying its claim.  There is no evidence in the secondary source provided that Brigham actually made the statement. 
 
  
−
* See: [[Brigham Young pulling the wool over America's eyes|Brigham Young&mdash;pulling the wool over Americans' eyes?]]
+
''All of these sources will be used in this book to discover how Mormonism's founder&mdash;Joseph Smith&mdash;formed, controlled, and expanded his church, which today is one of the wealthiest and most influential religions in the world.'' [ONUG, xvi]
 +
</blockquote>
  
−
{{parabreak}}
+
With his thesis stated and his purpose laid bare, the author attempts to pull disparate sources together to paint a picture that, when compared to objective reality, more closely resembles a Picasso than a Rembrandt&mdash;skewed and distorted&mdash;obscuring and maligning the actual doctrines and beliefs as understood and practiced by members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for more than 150 years.
−
 
 
−
===Plural marriage difficulties?===
 
−
{{BeginQuoteMiningTable}}
 
−
|582||The author writes:
 
−
*"The fact that plural marriage brought great sorrow to many of the women involved can hardly be denied. Heber C. Kimball once stated: 'There is a great deal of quarelling in the houses, and contending for power and authority; and the second wife is against the first wife, perhaps, in some instances' (Heber C. Kimball, January 11, 1857, JOD, vol. 4,178)",
 
−
||The Tanners write:
 
−
*"The fact that plural marriage brought great sorrow to many of the women involved can hardly be denied. Heber C. Kimball once remarked: 'There is a great deal of quarrelling in the houses, and contending for power and authority; and the second wife is against the first wife, perhaps, in some instances' (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p.178)."
 
−
||
 
−
*Jerald and Sandra Tanner, [[The Changing World of Mormonism|''The Changing World of Mormonism'']], page 226
 
−
*This repeats an assertion made by the Tanners, which takes the quote out of context.
 
−
{{EndQuoteMiningTable}}
 
−
'''Commentary'''
 
−
*The author takes this quote out of context in the same manner as his source. See: [[Did early Church leaders speak of plural marriage difficulties?]]
 
−
{{parabreak}}
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
===Joseph was a "natural speaker," yet "afraid of the people"===
 
−
 
 
−
{{BeginQuoteMiningTable}}
 
−
|6-7||
 
−
*Nathaniel Lewis made the comment, "Joseph...is not a man of truth and veracity;...his general character in this part of the country, is that of an impostor, hypocrite and liar."
 
−
*Orasmus Turner said that Joseph "was an excellent 'exhorter' at '''Methodist camp meetings'''." The author notes that the term "exhorter" refers to "a position created by preachers for youths with public speaking talent." {{ea}}
 
−
||Here is additional material from Lewis' statement in ''Mormonism Unvailed'', p. 267:
 
−
"From my standing in the '''Methodist Episcopal Church''', I suppose he was careful how he conducted or expressed himself before me. At one time, however, he came to my house, and asked my advice, whether he should proceed to translate the Book of Plates (referred to by Mr. Hale) or not.  He said that God had commanded him to translate it, '''but he was afraid of the people.''' {{ea}}
 
−
||
 
−
*Nathaniel Lewis statement cited in Eber D. Howe, ''Mormonism Unvailed'', p. 267.
 
−
*Orasmus Turner, ''History of the Pioneer Settlement of Phelps and Gorham's Purchase''.
 
−
{{EndQuoteMiningTable}}
 
−
'''Commentary'''
 
−
*So, was Joseph "afraid of the people," or did he have "public speaking talent?" Lewis' testimony is suspect on a number of issues, and the author excluded the portion of the testimony that conflicted with Turner's statement.
 
−
*Lewis is ''the only person that ever claimed that Joseph asked his advice regarding whether he should translate the Book of Mormon''&mdash;a ridiculous assertion that is contrary to numerous other published testimonies of the event.
 
−
*See [[The Hurlbut affidavits#Nathaniel Lewis|The Hurlbut affidavits&mdash;Nathaniel Lewis]]
 
−
{{parabreak}}
 
−
 
 
−
===Celestial sex?===
 
−
The author uses the offensive term "celestial sex" to characterize LDS beliefs related to the pre-existence. The author makes similar claims in his later book [[Becoming Gods#Latter-day Saints believe in Celestial Sex?|''Becoming Gods'' (a.k.a. ''Inside Today's Mormonism'')]]
 
−
{{BeginQuoteMiningTable}}
 
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|285, 573n21||""Coexisting with these two deities was a limitless amount of cosmic spirit matter known as "intelligence," out of which Elohim and Heavenly Mother made countless spirit babies via '''celestial sex'''." {{ea}}
 
−
||
 
−
*The sources quoted, Bruce R. McConkie, Brigham Young, and Orson Pratt never use the term "celestial sex."
 
−
*''No LDS leader'' has ever used the term "celestial sex."
 
−
*The term "celestial sex" was popularized in Ed Decker's 1982 anti-Mormon film [[The God Makers]]. This source is not credited as a source by the author, but its influence is obvious.
 
−
*The author defends his use of the offensive term in his later book [[Becoming Gods#Latter-day Saints believe in Celestial Sex?|''Becoming Gods'']]
 
−
||
 
−
*McConkie, ''Mormon Doctrine'', 387
 
−
*Brigham Young, June 18, 1865, ''Journal of Discourses'', vol. 11, 122.
 
−
*Orson Pratt, "The Pre-Existence of Man," ''The Seer'', March 1853, vol. 1, no. 3, 38
 
−
{{EndQuoteMiningTable}}
 
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{{parabreak}}
 
−
 
 
−
===Conception of Jesus Christ===
 
−
The author makes similar claims in his later book [[Becoming Gods#Jesus Christ's conception|''Becoming Gods'' (a.k.a. ''Inside Today's Mormonism'']]).
 
−
{{BeginQuoteMiningTable}}
 
−
|287 575n38(PB)||"This is not to say that Christ was conceived in any way that might be considered supernatural. He was not miraculously begotten, for instance, by the Holy Ghost, as Christianity teaches." In endnote 38, the author includes the following quote from Brigham Young: "Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost."
 
−
||
 
−
*From the Book of Mormon:
 
−
**{{s||Alma|7|10}}:And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.
 
−
**{{s|1|Nephi|11|18-20}}:And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh. And it came to pass that I beheld that she was carried away in the Spirit; and after she had been carried away in the Spirit for the space of a time the angel spake unto me, saying: Look! And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms.
 
−
*Modern references:
 
−
**"The manner of his conception had been miraculous, and she must have trembled to realize that the responsibility of nurturing this divine child was hers." (Barbara B. Smith, "No Ordinary Child", ''Liahona'', Dec. 1989)
 
−
**"...she knew her cousin Elisabeth would lend a sympathetic ear, for had she not also experienced a miraculous conception?" (Mary Pratt Parrish, "Mary", ''Ensign'', Dec. 1971)
 
−
||
 
−
*Brigham Young, April 9, 1852, [http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Journal_of_Discourses/Volume_1/Self-Government%E2%80%94Mysteries,_etc. ''Journal of Discourses'', vol. 1, 51].
 
−
*Here is more of Brigham's statement: "'''Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost'''. I will repeat a little anecdote. I was in conversation with a certain learned professor upon this subject, when I replied, to this idea—"if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children, to be palmed upon the Elders by the people, bringing the Elders into great difficulties." {{ea}}
 
−
{{EndQuoteMiningTable}}
 
−
'''Comments'''
 
−
*The author's statement is false.
 
−
*See also [[Jesus Christ's conception]]
 
−
{{parabreak}}
 
−
 
 
−
==="Mormon Beliefs About Jesus" versus "Christian Beliefs About Jesus"===
 
−
It would be enlightening for any Latter-day Saint to read the book's description of the "Mormon Jesus" in the left column and see just how much of this is recognizable as church doctrine. The list is taken from page 378 (PB). This claim is repeated in the author's later work [[Becoming Gods#The "Mormon Jesus" versus the "Traditional Jesus"|''Becoming Gods''&mdash;The "Mormon Jesus" versus the "Traditional Jesus"]].
 
−
{| valign="top" border="1" style="width:100%; font-size:85%"
 
−
!width="40%"|The author's presentation of "Mormon Beliefs About Jesus"
 
−
!width="40%"|Jesus Christ, as viewed by Latter-day Saints
 
−
!width="20%"|For more information...
 
−
|-
 
−
|A ''literal'' son (spirit-child) of a god (Elohim) and his wife.||
 
−
*Latter-day Saints believe that ''everyone'' is a spirit child of Heavenly Father, including Jesus. What is a spirit child?  We don't have the details. 
 
−
*Our eternal nature was organized into a spirit person, whatever that is.  We don't know the details.  We don't know the process in which we became a spirit person.
 
−
*The difference between us is that Jesus is divine, while the rest of us are not.
 
−
*Why the emphasis on the word "literal"? Apparently, to once again call attention to the subject of "Celestial Sex."
 
−
||
 
−
*[[Jesus Christ's conception]]
 
−
|-
 
−
|The elder brother of all spirits born in the pre-existence to Heavenly Father.||
 
−
*Latter-day Saints do not claim to know by what method a spirit is "born."
 
−
*Christ is the "eldest," but what this means is not also not clear.  Is it a question of temporality?  (i.e., He came first in time)  Is it a rank?  Does it describe His relationship to us?  We simply don't claim to know, since time is only measured unto man.
 
−
*Latter-day Saints do believe that Christ was ''not'' created ex nihilo at some moment; He is eternally self-existent.
 
−
||
 
−
*[[Creation in Colossians 1:16]]
 
−
|-
 
−
|A polygamous Jewish male.
 
−
||
 
−
*This is not a belief among Latter-day Saints, and is based entirely upon non-doctrinal statements made by Orson Hyde and Orson Pratt.
 
−
*It is surprising that this claim is still in the paperback edition. It was, however, removed from ''Becoming Gods''.
 
−
||
 
−
|-
 
−
|One of three gods overseeing this planet.||
 
−
*There is only one God. Christ is one of three divine beings in the Godhead. They are one in purpose, not one in person. {{s||John|17|3}}, {{s||John|17|20-22}}
 
−
*Regardless of this, a creedal Christian ought not to have a problem with one God consisting of more than one Person.
 
−
||
 
−
*[[Godhead and the Trinity]]
 
−
|-
 
−
|Atoned only for Adam's transgression by sweating blood in Gethsemene.
 
−
||
 
−
*This statement is completely false.
 
−
*The Book of Mormon teaches that Christ's sacrifice was "infinite and eternal." (2 Nephi) It could not be exceeded in any sense.  Christ suffered for the sins, griefs, and pains of all humanity (Alma 7), whether or not they repent.
 
−
*The benefits of that atonement are restricted if we refuse to do that which He asks of us to accept it (i.e. have faith, repent, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, and endure to the end.)
 
−
*Note that this statement was changed in [Becoming Gods#The "Mormon Jesus" versus the "Traditional Jesus"|''Becoming Gods''&mdash;The "Mormon Jesus" versus the "Traditional Jesus"]] to "Atoned only for Adam's transgression, thereby providing the opportunity for us to obtain "eternal life" by our own efforts. The change, however, didn't really do anything to correct this falsehood.
 
−
||
 
−
*[[Salvation by faith alone]]
 
−
*[[Neglect grace]]
 
−
*[[Early Christian views on salvation]]
 
−
|-
 
−
|The ''literal'' spirit brother of Lucifer.||
 
−
*Again, note the emphasis on the word "literal." Latter-day Saints do ''not'' consider Jesus in any way to be Satan's "peer."
 
−
||
 
−
*[[Jesus Christ is the brother of Satan]]
 
−
|-
 
−
|Jesus' sacrificial death is not able to cleanse some people of ''all'' their sins.||
 
−
*Latter-day Saints believe that only those who ''reject the atonement'' cannot be cleansed from all their sins. If one doesn't accept the atonement, then the atonement can't save him or her.  But, that is a reflection on the sinner, and does ''not'' imply that Christ's atonement was "not able" to cleanse our sins.
 
−
*This is probably alluding to blood atonement.
 
−
*Jesus Christ Himself taught that blasphemy against the Holy Ghost was an "unforgivable sin." {{s||Matthew|12|31-32}}
 
−
||
 
−
*[[Unforgivable sin]]
 
−
|-
 
−
|There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God.||
 
−
*Latter-day Saints believe that there is no salvation without accepting Jesus Christ as our Saviour and Redeemer. Salvation is obtained by receiving Jesus and his atoning sacrifice. The statement presented in the book is nonsense.  All save the sons of perdition are saved.  All will be resurrected.
 
−
*A fullness of salvation requires accepting the words of ALL the prophets--including those who wrote the Bible, and including Joseph Smith.
 
−
*If one believes that you have to accept the Bible witness to be saved, then how can one fault Latter-day Saints for believing that another prophet's witness must also be accepted? LDS doctrine saves infidels and non-Christians in a resurrection of glory, and provides for their evangelization after death.
 
−
||
 
−
*[[Joseph Smith's status in LDS belief]]
 
−
|}
 
−
{{parabreak}}
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
===Lack of research===
 
−
The following claims show a lack of research of the subject being discussed.
 
−
 
 
−
{{BeginQuoteMiningTable}}
 
−
|25||"But Moroni's most urgent message, which he repeated during each visit, involved the golden plates ''buried in the hill called Cumorah, just outside the village of Manchester''. {{ea}}||The hill near Joseph's home was ''not'' called Cumorah by the angel Moroni, nor was it named Cumorah at the time that Joseph received the plates. The name ''Cumorah'' was applied later, ''as a result'' of Joseph finding the plates there.||None
 
−
|-
 
−
|25||"Obviously, if the angel in Smith's room spoke ''about'' Moroni, then he certainly could not have ''been'' Moroni.||The author is referring to Joseph's 1832 account, in which he states: "an angel of the Lord came and stood before me and it was by night and he called me by name and he said the Lord had forgiven me my sins and he revealed unto me that in the Town of Manchester Ontario County N.Y. there was plates of gold upon which there was engravings which was engraven by Maroni & his fathers the servants of the living God in ancient days and deposited by the commandments of God and kept by the power thereof and that I should go and get them."||Note that Joseph is not citing Moroni's words&mdash;he is describing a summary of the event that happened. In other words, this passage does not indicate that Moroni referred to himself in the third person.
 
−
{{EndQuoteMiningTable}}
 
−
{{parabreak}}
 
−
===Reversing the meaning of sources===
 
−
The following claims show how the author took a source quote and completely reversed its meaning.
 
−
 
 
−
{| valign="top" border="1" style="width:100%; font-size:85%"
 
−
{{BeginQuoteMiningTable}}
 
−
|86-87 (HB); 377 (PB)||
 
−
*"In 1984, Brigham Young University professor Kent Jackson went even further, stating in the LDS church's official magazine, ''Ensign'', that "'''Satan sits in the place of God in Christianity.'''" {{ea}}
 
−
*"As late as 1984, Mormonism's official ''Ensign'' magazine painted Christianity as satanic..."
 
−
||
 
−
*"To say that Satan sits in the place of God in Christianity after the time of the Apostles is not to say that all that is in it is satanic. '''Indeed, Latter-day Saints should rejoice—as the heavens undoubtedly do—at the great works of righteousness and faith, and the leavening influence on the world, of those whose lives are touched in any degree by Him whose gospel the Saints enjoy in its fulness'''." {{ea}}
 
−
||
 
−
*Kent P. Jackson, [http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=401605481ae6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1 "Early Signs of the Apostasy"], ''Ensign'', p. 8 (Dec. 1984)
 
−
|-
 
−
|289 (HB)||
 
−
*The author said, "According to the late BYU scholar Eugene England, Mormon women '''literally are to become "birth machines"''' so Mormon males can continue creating and populating various worlds without end." (HB) {{ea}}
 
−
*In 1987, BYU scholar Eugene England noted how many "influential" Mormons and LDS religion teachers still saw women as mere "birth machines"—a view he called "one of the more popular rationales for eternal polygyny." '''Just recently''' "an increasing number of faithful Mormons" have started rejecting such a notion. (PB) {{ea}}
 
−
||
 
−
*Eugene England said, "If humans can already produce test-tube babies and clones, '''God has certainly found more efficient ways to produce spirit children than by turning celestial partners into mere birth machines'''. To anticipate such a limited, unequal role for women in eternity insults and devalues them. {{ea}}
 
−
*And where does the author come up with "just recently???" Where have Latter-day Saints ''ever'' been "taught such a notion?"
 
−
||
 
−
*Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought (Winter 1987), vol. 20, no. 4, 148.
 
−
{{EndQuoteMiningTable}}
 
−
'''Comments'''
 
−
*The author has completely reversed the meaning of these quotes to make it appear as if the speakers said that opposite of what they meant.
 
−
*See [[/Use of sources/LDS "Birth Machines"|Use of sources: LDS "Birth Machines"]].
 
−
{{parabreak}}
 
−
 
 
−
===Saying things that the source never said===
 
−
{{BeginQuoteMiningTable}}
 
−
|514n73||"Mormon apologist John Sorenson has '''suggested that Smith mistranslated numerous words''' from the Book of Mormon golden plates. For example, cattle and oxen should have been rendered deer and bison. Moreover, horses should also have been translated deer, while swine more accurately refers to the wild pig." {{ea}}
 
−
||
 
−
*"One thing is clear. The '''terminology the Nephite volume uses''' to discuss animals follows a different logic than the scheme familiar to most of us whose ancestors came out of western Europe." (John Sorenson, ''An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon'', 288. {{ea}}
 
−
*"In one column are listed Book of Mormon terms for various animals. In the other are names in modern and scientific nomenclature that could reasonably correspond. Several beasts are possible for each Book of Mormon name. Usually there is no basis for preferring one candidate above another. Take your choice. But the purpose is not to finalize identifications. Instead it is to '''show that there are plausible creatures to match each scriptural term'''." (John Sorenson, ''An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon'', 299. {{ea}}
 
−
|| 
 
−
*John Sorensen, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon, 191-276, 299.
 
−
{{EndQuoteMiningTable}}
 
−
'''Comments'''
 
−
*Dr. Sorenson ''never'' suggested that Joseph "mistranslated" anything from the Book of Mormon. The word "mistranslated" or "mistranslation" doesn't even appear in Sorenson's book: He is instead describing the concept of "loan-shifting." Sorenson's suggestion was that the ''writers'' of the Book of Mormon may have applied these terms to the animals, ''not'' Joseph Smith.
 
−
-->
 
−
 
 
−
==Further reading==
 
−
===FAIR wiki articles===
 
−
{{FAIRAnalysisWiki}}
 

Latest revision as of 22:57, 11 May 2024

Contents


Learn more about responses to: Richard Abanes
Wiki links
Online
  • Craig L. Foster, "'Doing Violence to Journalistic Integrity (Review of ''Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of a Violent Faith by Jon Krakauer)'," FARMS Review 16/1 (2004). [149–174] link
  • Michael G. Reed, "Abanes's Revised History (Review of One Nation Under Gods: A History of the Mormon Church)," FARMS Review 16/1 (2004). [99–110] link
Navigators

Response to One Nation Under Gods



A FAIR Analysis of: One Nation Under Gods, a work by author: Richard Abanes
 		Becoming Gods
Claim Evaluation
One Nation Under Gods
Chart one nation under gods summary.jpg
Summary chart breakdown to claims tag.jpg

Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods by Richard Abanes

Summary: In early 2002 a new book entitled One Nation under Gods (ONUG) appeared on bookshelves, promising to tell the "real" history of the Mormon Church. The author attempts to pull disparate sources together to paint a picture that, when compared to objective reality, more closely resembles a Picasso than a Rembrandt—skewed and distorted—obscuring and maligning the actual doctrines and beliefs as understood and practiced by members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for more than 150 years. FairMormon's original review of One Nation Under Gods was of the original 2002 hardback edition. The author has responded that there were editorial problems with this edition. We acknowledge that corrections were made in the paperback edition released in 2003 in response to some of the original reviews. Consequently, all previous FairMormon reviews have been edited for accuracy and tone, and the paperback edition of this work has been evaluated on its own merits. (It should be noted that the corrected paperback edition bears no markings indicating that it is a second edition or an updated edition; it simply appears as a paperback edition of the original.) This is an index of claims made in this work with links to corresponding responses. An effort has been made to provide the author's original sources where possible. In the subarticles linked below the hardback edition is represented by "HB" and the paperback edition by "PB."


Jump to details:


Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Introduction: A Thread of Prophecy"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 1: Vagabond Visionaries"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 2: Moroni, Magic, and Masonry"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 3: From Profit to Prophet"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 4: Smith's Golden Book"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 5: People of Zion"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 6: No Rest for the Righteous"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 7: Woe In Ohio"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 8: Big Trouble In Little Missouri"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 9: March to Martyrdom"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 10: A New Beginning"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 11: Bloody Brigham"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 12: Wars and Rumors of Wars"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 13: Unholy Matrimony"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 14: The Politics of Compromise"


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Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 15: Making the Transition"


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Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 16: Mormon Racism: Black Is Not Beautiful"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 17: Is Mormonism Christian"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Chapter 18: Cover-Ups, Conspiracies, and Controversies"


Jump to details:


Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Postscript" (paperback only)


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Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Appendix A: Abraham's Book?"


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Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Appendix B: Failed Joseph Smith Prophecies"


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Response to claims made in One Nation Under Gods, "Appendix C: Recommended Resources"


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Overview

...after seven years, FAIR has been able to raise only twenty-seven objections to a book weighing in at 651 pages (471 pages of main text + nearly 150 pages of endnotes + bibliography + indexes). Particularly interesting is how most these so-called errors-mistakes (minus the ones too petty to even address) have all been resolved in the paperback version.


—The author, posted on his website "ERRATA FOR ONE NATION UNDER GODS" (Dec. 2008 - web page has since been removed. This link goes to the web archive for the page)

∗       ∗       ∗

Notes

Summary: Responses to claims made in "Notes" (473-617) (PB)

Source analysis

Summary: An examination and response to how the author of One Nation Under Gods interprets the sources used to support this work, indexed by page number.

Loaded and prejudicial language

Summary: An examination of how the author employs loaded and prejudicial language in this work in order to discredit Mormonism.

Absurd claims

Summary: Some of the claims made in this work are simply absurd. We list and respond to those claims here.

Presentism

Summary: “Presentism” is an analytical fallacy in which past behavior is evaluated by modern standards or mores. We examine some of our favorite examples of this fallacy in One Nation Under Gods.

Mind reading

Summary: The author often attempts to interpret what Joseph was thinking as a way to lead the reader to a predetermined conclusion regarding Joseph Smith.

Rewording secondary sources

Summary: A list of paragraphs which echo the prose of Fawn Brodie's No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith.

Sarcasm

Summary: The author of One Nation Under Gods uses sarcasm to belittle what he claims to be LDS beliefs and doctrine.


About this work

[M]ore than a few Mormons, although they had never actually read my book, declared without hesitation that it was rife with errors.
—One Nation Under Gods, p. 438 (paperback edition)

We did indeed read the book (both the Hardback and the Paperback), thoroughly. They are, and continue to be, rife with errors.

Quotes from the author

[T]o be honest, your FAIR analysis of the hardbound is actually hurting you in some very interesting ways—and you don't even know it. Suffice it to say, I have been enjoying the many times I've had the pleasure of point out to lots of Mormons (many of them now former Mormons) where FAIR has not been completely honest, and where FAIR has shown itself to be terrifically nit-picky and petty. I thank you.
—The author, commenting on FAIR's previous analysis of this work. Posted to Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board, Nov. 21, 2008

...what ONUG [One Nation Under Gods] did was to provide needed information to non-Mormons, evangelicals, secularists, and from what I hear, even many Mormons (many of whom, thanks to ONUG, are no longer Mormons).
—The author, commenting on the value of his book. Posted to Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board, Dec. 7, 2008

Props to FAIR for reacting so quickly to my responses to what they had kept up at their website for 5 years. After my refutation of their so-called critique of One Nation Under Gods was posted, it took them about 1-2 weeks to take everything down. Good job, FAIR!
—The author, responding to this "so-called" critique. The statement, however, is not accurate. The original 27 articles were taken off the FAIR website and moved here to the FAIR Wiki, where over 100 new articles were added. Posted to Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board, May 14, 2009

∗       ∗       ∗

It should be noted that the author's response to the list of problems documented by FAIR is that the editing on the hardback edition of One Nation Under Gods (ONUG) was incomplete and that many of the problems were corrected in the paperback edition, published a year later. (This corrected paperback edition bears no markings indicating that it is a second edition or an updated edition; it simply appears as a paperback edition of the original.) This review primarily treats the paperback edition of this work, with an acknowledgment of corrections made by the author to the hardback edition.

In early 2002 a new book entitled One Nation under Gods (ONUG) appeared on bookshelves, promising to tell the "real" history of the Mormon Church. In the words of its author,

It is beyond legitimate dispute that the Mormon church has for decades been painting for the general public a decidedly biased picture of the Latter-day Saint faith, especially with regard to the origins of the Book of Mormon. Fortunately, a more objective sketch of Mormonism's earliest years can be drawn using non-LDS witnesses, secular media articles, and private journals (Mormon and non-Mormon).

All of these sources will be used in this book to discover how Mormonism's founder—Joseph Smith—formed, controlled, and expanded his church, which today is one of the wealthiest and most influential religions in the world. [ONUG, xvi]

With his thesis stated and his purpose laid bare, the author attempts to pull disparate sources together to paint a picture that, when compared to objective reality, more closely resembles a Picasso than a Rembrandt—skewed and distorted—obscuring and maligning the actual doctrines and beliefs as understood and practiced by members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for more than 150 years.
Retrieved from "https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/index.php?title=Criticism_of_Mormonism/Books/One_Nation_Under_Gods&oldid=257895"