View source for Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Witnesses

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|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Witnesses
|H=Response to MormonThink page "The Witnesses"
|T=[[../|MormonThink]]
|A=Anonymous
|<=[[../The Kinderhook Plates|The Kinderhook Plates]]
|>=[[../Doctrine & Covenants|Doctrine & Covenants]]
}}
[[File:Mormonthink.chart.witnesses.png|center|frame]]
<onlyinclude>
{{H2
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Witnesses
|H=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Witnesses"
|S=
|L1=Response to claim: "The witnesses' experiences may have only been visionary in nature"
|L2=Response to claim: "There are also several statements saying that the only time they saw the plates was when the plates were covered in a cloth or tow frock"
|L3=Response to claim: "God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints"
|L4=Response to claim: "All the witnesses had close ties to Joseph and his family"
|L5=Response to claim: "Some of the witnesses, especially Martin Harris, were easily swayed by tales of the supernatural, especially in a religious context"
|L6=Response to claim: "Of the witnesses that left the church, most believed that Joseph was at best a fallen prophet"
|L7=Response to claim: "The witnesses, who have been heralded as good, honest, Abe Lincoln-type of men were later called liars, counterfeiters, thieves, etc. by Joseph Smith himself"
|L8=Response to claim: "The 'testimony of the witnesses' is similar to testimonials which were commonly included in books"
|L9=Response to claim: "A personal promise (and a threat of condemnation) coming directly from God is bound to have a powerful influence on a person’s thinking"
|L10=Response to claim: "There are seven witnesses that say Solomon Spalding was the author of the Book of Mormon"
|L11=Response to claim: "There are many witnesses to James Strang's claim of having unearthed metal plates which he translated into scripture"
|L12=Response to claim: "Travis Walton, became an unwilling captive of an alien race when the other men fled in fear"
|L13=Response to claim: "just because a group of people claims something extraordinary happened to them, it doesn't make it so"
|L14=Response to claim: "There are many, many reported witnesses to UFOs, Bigfoot, the Lochness Monster, Abominable Snowman, alien abductions...Should they be believed as well?"
|L15=Response to claim: "Just because three witnesses signed a statement saying they saw an angel, doesn't mean it really happened or that it didn't happen either"
|L16=Response to claim: "this comparison shows some of the inherent weaknesses of the using just witnesses to prove historical events"
|L17=Response to claim: "Why should we believe all the Book of Mormon witnesses over the sworn affidavits of over dozens of unrelated townspeople?"
|L18=Response to claim: "None of the witnesses should have been related to Joseph or each other"
|L19=Response to claim: "The witnesses should not have already been eager believers"
|L20=Response to claim: "There should have been no financial motive"
|L21=Response to claim: "Each of the witnesses should each have written their own testimony"
|L22=Response to claim: "The witnesses should have been much more detailed about this amazing event"
|L23=Response to claim: "The witnesses should have been interviewed independently immediately after going public"
|L24=Response to claim: "The witnesses should not have used subjective language and say strange things like comparing seeing the plates with seeing a city through a mountain or using spiritual eyes instead of their natural eyes to view physical plates"
|L25=Response to claim: "why was 'a supernatural power' needed for the witness John Whitmer to be shown the plates?"
|L26=Response to claim: "The witnesses should not have been gullible people"
|L27=Response to claim: "All of the witness should have been much more vocal and been interviewed much more often"
|L28=Response to claim: "it would have helped had all the witnesses remained loyal to the Church for the rest of their lives"
|L29=Response to claim: "It's also quite possible that Oliver was in on a deception with Joseph"
}}
</onlyinclude>


{{SummaryItem
|link=/Source quotes without commentary
|subject=Source quotes without critical commentary
|summary=If you would like to read all of the source quotes without wading through all of the "Critic's comments," "Apologetic rebuttals" and "Our Thoughts" sections, we present the critical web page as it would appear if ''only'' the source quotes were provided without any additional commentary. We also try to provide accurate references and direct links to the original source text rather than simply linking to other websites where you have to search for them.
}}

==Response to claim: "The witnesses' experiences may have only been visionary in nature"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=The witnesses' experiences may have only been visionary in nature. There are many statements given by the witnesses that indicate they only saw the angel and the plates in a visionary experience. Why would people need to see real, physical plates in a vision or a real angel that was physically on the earth? 
}}
{{disinformation|There are many statements from the witnesses indicating that they physically viewed the plates.
}}
{{:Question: Did the three witnesses's experience of seeing the plates and the angel take place only in their minds?}}
[[Image:WhitmerGravestone.png|frame|right|David Whitmer's gravestone, upon which is engraved his testimony of the Book of Mormon: "The record of the Jews and the record of the Nephites are one."]]
{{:Question: Does the belief that the experience had visionary qualities contradict the claim that the plates were real?}}
{{:Source:Martin Harris:Painesville Telegraph:1831:He had seen and handled them all}}
{{:Source:David Whitmer:Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses:86:1:we were in the spirit when we had the view...but we were in the body also}}
{{:Source:Painesville Telegraph:16 Nov 1830:Cowdery pretends to have a divine mission and conversed with angels}}
{{:Source:Martin Harris:Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses:116:1:Do you see that hand}}
{{:Source:Edward Stevenson:1870:Millennial Star:Martin Harris:my belief is swallowed up in knowledge; for I want to say to you that as the Lord lives I do know that I stood with the Prophet Joseph Smith in the presence of the angel}}
{{:Source:Martin Harris:Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses:117:1:I know what I know}}
{{:Source:Echoes:Ch2:8:David Whitmer:I saw with these eyes and I heard with these ears}}

==Response to claim: "There are also several statements saying that the only time they saw the plates was when the plates were covered in a cloth or tow frock"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim= There are also several statements saying that the only time they saw the plates was when the plates were covered in a cloth or tow frock.
}}
{{misinformation|This is a common claim among critics of the Church. What they do not say is that this was a description from William Smith, Joseph's brother, who was ''not'' one of the Three or Eight witnesses. He is simply describing what happened when Joseph brought the plates home.
}}
{{:Question: Did one of the Book of Mormon witnesses actually only handle the plates while they were covered in a "tow frock"?}}
{{:Source:William Smith:William Smith on Mormonism:1883:he escaped to the house and brought the plates with him, wrapped up in a tow frock}}
{{:Source:William Smith:The Old Soldier's Testimony:1884:When the plates were brought in they were wrapped up in a tow frock. My father then put them into a pillow case}}
{{:Source:William Smith:Wm. B. Smith's last Statement:1893:I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock and judged them to have weighed about sixty pounds}}

==Response to claim: "God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=David Whitmer said "If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them." So which statement was David Whitmer lying about or had been mistaken about? Either way he doesn't sound like a completely trustworthy witness.
}}
{{misinformation|Actually, FairMormon doesn't have any problem believing that God told Whitmer to leave Far West. The author misinterprets the sources, however, when he assumes that Whitmer is saying that God told him to leave the Church. Whitmer had been excommunicated well before God told him to leave.
|provenance=Jerald and Sandra Tanner, ''The Changing World of Mormonism'', 97
}}
{{:Question: Did God tell David Whitmer to leave the Church and repudiate Mormonism?}}
{{:Question: How can we accept David Whitmer as a valid Book of Mormon witness if God told him to leave the Saints?}}
{{:Question: When did God tell David Whitmer to separate himself from the Latter-day Saints?}}

==Response to claim: "All the witnesses had close ties to Joseph and his family"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=All the witnesses had close ties to Joseph and his family. Some like Martin Harris had a substantial financial investment in the success of the Book of Mormon.
}}
{{propaganda|So what? The authors are implying that all of the witnesses lied because the had "close ties" to Joseph.
}}
{{:Question: Were the Book of Mormon witnesses not neutral because they were members of the Church and believers in Joseph's mission?}}

==Response to claim: "Some of the witnesses, especially Martin Harris, were easily swayed by tales of the supernatural, especially in a religious context"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=These men lived in the early 1800s and believed in magical things like many people did during that time period such as divining rods, second sight, magic, dreams, seer stones, etc. Some of the witnesses, especially Martin Harris, were easily swayed by tales of the supernatural, especially in a religious context.
}}
{{disinformation|Martin Harris was absolutely skeptical. He required confirmation, which he received from Charles Anthon.
}}
{{:Question: Was Martin Harris a gullible witness who would simply believe anything he was told?}}
{{:Source:Kenneth W. Godfrey:A New Prophet and a New Scripture:Ensign:January 1988:Once Martin found a rock closely resembling the seerstone}}

<!-- ==Response to claim: "By 1847 not a single one of the surviving eleven witnesses was part of the LDS Church"==
{{MormonThinkIndexClaimShort
|claim=Many of the witnesses ended up leaving the church and following other leaders and religions such as James Strang, the Shakers, Methodists, etc. By 1847 not a single one of the surviving eleven witnesses was part of the LDS Church.
}}
{{:Book of Mormon/Witnesses/Eight witnesses}} -->

==Response to claim: "Of the witnesses that left the church, most believed that Joseph was at best a fallen prophet"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Of the witnesses that left the church, most believed that Joseph was at best a fallen prophet, the church changed its doctrines in error and changed revelations against God's will.
}}
{{information|This is true. The witnesses that left the Church did so because they felt that Joseph had taken the wrong path, yet they held to their testimonies of the Book of Mormon. That fact that they did makes their testimonies of the Book of Mormon even more valuable, since it would have been the perfect opportunity to expose Joseph as a fraud.
}}
{{:Question: Did the Three Witnesses consider Joseph Smith a "fallen prophet" after they left the Church?}}
{{:Question: Did Oliver Cowdery ever deny his Book of Mormon witness because he thought that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet?}}
{{:Question: Did Martin Harris ever deny his Book of Mormon witness because he thought that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet?}}
{{:Question: Did David Whitmer ever deny his Book of Mormon witness because he thought that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet?}}

==Response to claim: "The witnesses, who have been heralded as good, honest, Abe Lincoln-type of men were later called liars, counterfeiters, thieves, etc. by Joseph Smith himself"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=The witnesses, who have been heralded as good, honest, Abe Lincoln-type of men were later called liars, counterfeiters, thieves, etc. by Joseph Smith himself.
}}
{{information|If Joseph was running a scam, why did he dare do this?  Why did he attack these men's later behavior in the strongest terms, if he knew they had the means to ruin him by exposing the fraud of the Book of Mormon? Why didn't the witnesses turn around an denounce Joseph as a liar about the angel and the Book of Mormon plates? If the witnesses stuck to their story even when alienated from and harshly criticized by Joseph, doesn't this strengthen their witness? Why does it seem like Joseph had no worries about these men denying their testimony? It seems like he knew they would feel bound to bear it, no matter what.
}}

==Response to claim: "The 'testimony of the witnesses' is similar to testimonials which were commonly included in books"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=The "testimony of the witnesses" is similar to testimonials which were commonly included in books etc. in those days to help spur sales. And of course, the BOM's producers originally intended to sell copies for $1.75 each.
}}
{{disinformation|No, they weren't similar at all. Testimonials where were commonly included in books didn't talk of seeing an angel. Additionally, if the point was simply to "spur sales" of the Book of Mormon, why did the witnesses stick to their testimonies until they died? They certainly weren't hoping to get any profits from the book by that time, right? Come to think of it, what ''was'' the financial motivation for all of the other witnesses with regard to sales of the Book of Mormon? Martin Harris was the only one invested in it.
}}

==Response to claim: "A personal promise (and a threat of condemnation) coming directly from God is bound to have a powerful influence on a person’s thinking"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=All three witnesses believed that God Himself had told them (through Joseph Smith) that they had been specially chosen to testify to the world that they had seen the angel and the plates –– if they had enough faith. Martin Harris was even told the exact words he must use: Joseph Smith said he had a revelation in which the Lord commanded Harris to say, “I have seen the things which the Lord hath shown unto Joseph Smith Jun., and I know of a surety that they are true, for I have seen them.” And just to clinch the command, God threatened Martin Harris, saying, “But if he deny this he will break the covenant which he has before covenanted with me, and behold, he is condemned.” A personal promise (and a threat of condemnation) coming directly from God is bound to have a powerful influence on a person’s thinking!
}}
{{propaganda|So, are the authors implying that Martin deliberately ''lied'' about seeing the plates because he was ''afraid of being condemned by God''? Why would Martin think that it was OK to break one of the ''ten commandments'' in order to avoid God's condemnation? Didn't the ten commandments come from God? Wouldn't Martin be more afraid of breaking the eighth commandment to not bear "false witness? Why did Martin "stay scared" of God after leaving the Church?  Why did he keep preaching the Book of Mormon and bearing his witness even when with other religious groups (much to those groups' irritation!)? Why would Martin believe these lines came from God unless he believed Joseph could really get revelation?  Why would he fear the words of a presumed false prophet more than the ten commandments, Bible, and his own reputation?
}}

==Response to claim: "There are seven witnesses that say Solomon Spalding was the author of the Book of Mormon"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=There are seven witnesses that say Solomon Spalding was the author of the Book of Mormon. Seven people wrote affidavits testifying that they had read early drafts of a book by author Solomon Spalding that appeared to be an early draft of the BOM. In some ways they are more credible than the BOM witnesses as they each wrote their own account instead of merely signing a prepared statement. 
}}
{{misinformation|Actually, the evidence is that Doctor Philastus Hurlbut authored these affidavits, and they were suspiciously similar in the elements they mentioned. Even ''critics'' such as Fawn Brodie rejected the Spalding claims because of this.
}}
{{:Question: Is the Spalding theory of Book of Mormon authorship credible?}}
{{:Question: What do the Hurlbut affidavits say about the Spalding manuscript and the Book of Mormon?}}
{{:Question: What are the Hurlbut affidavits?}}

==Response to claim: "There are many witnesses to James Strang's claim of having unearthed metal plates which he translated into scripture"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=There are many witnesses to James Strang's claim of having unearthed metal plates which he translated into scripture.
}}
{{information|Yes, and these witnesses never claimed to see an angel, and some later claimed to have assisted in the fabrication of the plates.
}}
{{:Question: Of what did the Strangite witnesses testify?}}
{{:Question: What are the differences between the Strangite witnesse statements and those of the Three and Eight Witnesses to the Book of Mormon?}}

==Response to claim: "Travis Walton, became an unwilling captive of an alien race when the other men fled in fear"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=On November 5, 1975, seven men witnessed a spacecraft from another world hovering silently between tall pines in the Apache-Sitgreaves National forest of north-eastern Arizona. One of those men, Travis Walton, became an unwilling captive of an alien race when the other men fled in fear.
}}
{{propaganda|We have a result of Joseph's efforts - the Book of Mormon itself. Show us the tangible evidence of alien abduction. MormonThink is comparing seeing ''space aliens'' with the Book of Mormon witnesses?? Really?
}}

==Response to claim: "just because a group of people claims something extraordinary happened to them, it doesn't make it so"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Obviously both sets of witnesses cannot be correct. At least one set, possibly both sets, of witnesses were either lying or were mistaken or deceived. Which group is to be believed or are they both in error?
We're not saying we believe the Spalding witnesses over the Book of Mormon witnesses, but it proves the point that just because a group of people claims something extraordinary happened to them, it doesn't make it so.
}}
{{propaganda|The Spalding witnesses didn't claim that anything "extraordinary" happened to them - they claimed that Spalding had read them a manuscript. What's so extraordinary about that? Seeing an angel is ''extraordinary''&mdash;hearing a manuscript read is not. Why not mention that all of these Spalding witnesses testimonies came through Dr. Phiastus Hurlbut, and that they were published in the first true anti-Mormon work, ''Mormonism Unvailed'', by Eber D. Howe? Why not mention that the Spalding manuscript was in Howe's possession, but he didn't use it because it bore no resemblance to the Book of Mormon? And that it was lost for years only to turn up later, and that it can be read today and that it ''still'' doesn't resemble the Book of Mormon?
}}

==Response to claim: "There are many, many reported witnesses to UFOs, Bigfoot, the Lochness Monster, Abominable Snowman, alien abductions...Should they be believed as well?"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=There are many, many reported witnesses to UFOs, Bigfoot, the Lochness Monster, Abominable Snowman, alien abductions, gurus with magic powers, psychics, etc. There are literally hundreds of thousands of witnesses to these amazing phenomena. Should they be believed as well?
}}
{{propaganda|This is nonsense.
}}
{{:Question: If we believe the story of the Three Witnesses, should we also believe witnesses of UFO's, Bigfoot, Loch Ness Monster?}}

==Response to claim: "Just because three witnesses signed a statement saying they saw an angel, doesn't mean it really happened or that it didn't happen either"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Just because three witnesses signed a statement saying they saw an angel, doesn't mean it really happened or that it didn't happen either.
}}
{{propaganda|Well, the critics certainly cover all the bases on this one: it either happened or it didn't happen. Of course, if we applied the critics' logic to court cases, the numerous witnesses called would have little value to the proceeding, since they are either telling the truth....or they are not telling the truth.
}}
{{:Question: What did Oliver Cowdery's associates say about his character?}}
{{:Question: What did Martin Harris's non-Mormon associates say about his character?}}
{{:Question: What did David Whitmer's associates say about his character?}}

==Response to claim: "this comparison shows some of the inherent weaknesses of the using just witnesses to prove historical events"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Faithful members would likely come up with explanations to counter these claims like the 3+8 witnesses signed a single statement because they so strongly agreed with their unified experience. However, this comparison shows some of the inherent weaknesses of the using just witnesses to prove historical events. This also underscores the weaknesses in the BOM process to obtain witnesses to verify the BOM.
}}
{{disinformation|The logic being displayed by the critics here is truly naive: The ''only'' window we have to historic events is through the eyes of witnesses! A witness is "One who can give a firsthand account of something seen, heard, or experienced." That's what they did. ''That's what witnesses do''. That's why they call them "witnesses," because they witnessed the events that they are relating as part of history. What does MormonThink that ''all'' history is based on? First person witness accounts. People witness history, and they leave behind documents: journals, government records, art, etc.  If you get rid of witnesses, then there's hardly any such thing as "history" at all. It is only very recently that we have things like photographs or video&mdash;and even these are records made by witnesses at the time.
}}

==Response to claim: "Why should we believe all the Book of Mormon witnesses over the sworn affidavits of over dozens of unrelated townspeople?"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Why should we believe all the Book of Mormon witnesses over the sworn affidavits [regarding the Spalding manuscript] of over dozens of unrelated townspeople?
}}
{{propaganda|Were any of these dozens of unrelated townspeople there when the angel was present? How would they know? Why are you comparing the witnesses to the plates to the Hurlbut-Howe affidavits anyway? One group said they saw the plates (and some an angel), the other group said that they heard a manuscript read. Why is it that when we try to verify matters in the affidavits that we ''can'' verify, they aren't confirmed?  For example, those who wrote the affidavits claimed that the Spalding manuscript matched the Book of Mormon&mdash;but it doesn't, and even anti-Mormons abandoned this argument more than a century ago.  So, why should we uncritically accept those claims in the affidavits that we ''can't'' verify?
}}
{{:Question: What do most critics think of the Spalding theory of Book of Mormon origin?}}

==Response to claim: "None of the witnesses should have been related to Joseph or each other"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=None of the witnesses should have been related to Joseph or each other. Most of the witnesses were either related or good friends. Having unrelated people as witnesses would be far more effective than using your brothers and father.
}}
{{propaganda|Why should Joseph go off and find a bunch of total strangers to witness such a miracle? Wouldn't he want to have his family and friends share the experience? After all, he had not been allowed to show them the plates for many months. Who would you rather share such an amazing experience with? Your brother, or some total stranger who doubts everything you say?
}}

==Response to claim: "The witnesses should not have already been eager believers"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=The witnesses should not have already been eager believers. There should have been some skeptics.
}}
{{propaganda|Why would an angel show up for ''skeptics''? Are these men then supposed to immediately convert and risk their reputations by declaring to the world that they saw an angel?
}}

==Response to claim: "There should have been no financial motive"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=There should have been no financial motive. Martin Harris mortgaged his farm and invested at least $3,000 of his own money into printing the Book of Mormon, so of course he had incentive to 'promote' the book.
}}
{{propaganda|This is nonsense. So, how exactly ''was'' the Book of Mormon supposed to get published? Was a printer supposed to magically do the work for free?
}}

==Response to claim: "Each of the witnesses should each have written their own testimony"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Each of the witnesses should each have written their own testimony instead of merely signing a prepared statement written by Joseph. If the prepared document wasn't 100% accurate many people would simply sign it anyway as it would be too much of a hassle to have it completely rewritten by hand - especially in the 1800s.
}}
{{propaganda|Really? Would it really have been "too much of a hassle" to completely rewrite ''one paragraph of text'' consisting of ''only 300 words? If you were going to be ''inaccurately'' quoted in a book for which you hoped to sell ''hundreds of copies'', wouldn't ''you'' have taken the time to insist that either the paragraph be rewritten or take the time to write your own version of it? Oliver Cowdery ''rewrote'' almost the entire manuscript of the Book of Mormon (the "printer's manuscript") so they would always have a copy of the translation in their possession.  How likely is he to be put off from rewriting a 300 word document that he's going to sign as a solemn witness? Were people "in the 1800s" really ''less'' concerned with the accuracy of their signed statements than we are now? Think about it.

Also, if this was true, why didn't the witnesses complain about it, especially later when they were alienated from Joseph Smith?  Instead, they consistently ''referred'' people to their statement and affirmed its accuracy. Remember that Joseph needed Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris to act as scribes for the Book of Mormon (and David Whitmer helped a bit too). How likely is it that Joseph sat down and wrote out the statement for them to sign?  Isn't it more likely that one or more was involved in at least acting as scribe, and that they may have even participated in drafting it?  Oliver Cowdery would help draft some sections of the Doctrine and Covenants, for example. Where's MormonThink's evidence that Joseph wrote the statement with no input from the witnesses?
}}

==Response to claim: "The witnesses should have been much more detailed about this amazing event"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=The witnesses should have been much more detailed about this amazing event. What did the angel look like? What exactly did he say? How did he speak? There are almost no details provided which can be analyzed and compared. If each witness had simply written their own account and provided significant details then their individual testimonies could corroborate each other.
}}
{{propaganda|There are many later accounts by the witnesses that corroborate each other.  Yet, MormonThink does not mention these, or consider that to increase the witnesses' credibility. Isn't this a double standard? If there were lots of details in the printed edition of the Book of Mormon, wouldn't MormonThink just turn around and claim that this close match was evidence of collusion?  Or, they could always claim (without evidence) that Joseph wrote or dictated all the statements.  It's easy to find "reasons" to dismiss evidence you don't want to accept.
}}

==Response to claim: "The witnesses should have been interviewed independently immediately after going public"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|claim=The witnesses should have been interviewed independently immediately after going public. They should have been interviewed the same way police do with witnesses to crimes or that investigators do with UFO cases. Ask questions to see if their stories match; How was the angel dressed? How tall was he? How did he speak?, etc.
}}
{{propaganda|The Mormons are not to be blamed because the non-believing townfolk in Joseph's area didn't interview the witnesses the way MormonThink believes they should have been. If the interviews matched, couldn't MormonThink just use that as evidence that Joseph and the witnesses had conspired together to concoct a story?  And, if the witnesses had different perspectives, wouldn't that be used as evidence they were making it up?
}}

==Response to claim: "The witnesses should not have used subjective language and say strange things like comparing seeing the plates with seeing a city through a mountain or using spiritual eyes instead of their natural eyes to view physical plates"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=The witnesses should not have used subjective language and say strange things like comparing seeing the plates with seeing a city through a mountain or using spiritual eyes instead of their natural eyes to view physical plates
}}
{{misinformation|There are only a few reported second- or third-hand quotes in which Martin mentioned "spiritual eyes," while critics ignore the multitude of quotes in which Martin said straight out that he saw the angel and handled the plates with his hands. 
}}
{{:Question: Did Martin Harris tell people that he did not see the plates with his natural eyes, but rather the "eye of faith"?}}
{{:Question: Did Martin Harris tell people that he only saw the plates with his "spiritual eye"?}}
{{:Question: Why would Martin Harris use the phrases "eye of faith" or "spiritual eye" to describe his visionary experience?}}
{{:Question: Do Martin Harris's statements related to the "spiritual eye" or "eye of faith" contradict the reality of his witness?}}
{{:Question: What did the Book of Mormon witnesses mean when they used the word "supernatural" to describe their experiences?}}
{{:Question: What did the other witnesses say regarding "spiritual" versus "natural" viewing of the plates?}}
{{:Question: How did newspaper accounts describe the nature of the witnesses experience?}}
{{:Question: How did the apostle Paul describe spiritual experiences?}}
{{:Source:Martin Harris:Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses:117:1:I know what I know}}
{{:Source:George Mantle to Marietta Walker:Autumn Leaves:1888:Do you know that is the sun shining on us? Because as sure as you know that...he translated that book by the power of God}}
{{:Source:Edward Stevenson:1870:Millennial Star:Martin Harris:my belief is swallowed up in knowledge; for I want to say to you that as the Lord lives I do know that I stood with the Prophet Joseph Smith in the presence of the angel}}

==Response to claim: "why was 'a supernatural power' needed for the witness John Whitmer to be shown the plates?"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=One of the eight witnesses, John Whitmer claimed, "I now say, I handled those plates; there were fine engravings on both sides. ...they were shown to me by a supernatural power" (History of the Church, Vol. 3, p. 307) The obvious question is, why was “a supernatural power” needed for the witness John Whitmer to be shown the plates? If he handled the plates, did he handle them while in a visionary state of mind, or in his imagination?
}}
{{misinformation|The term "supernatural" is used as a synonym for "miraculous."
}}
{{:Question: Did John Whitmer, one of the Eight Witnesses, actually say that he saw the plates by a "supernatural power"?}}
{{:Question: What did the Book of Mormon witnesses mean when they used the word "supernatural" to describe their experiences?}}

==Response to claim: "The witnesses should not have been gullible people"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=The witnesses should not have been gullible people that believed in things like 'second sight', divining rods, finding treasure by placing a rock in a hat, etc. That the Three Witnesses were a gullible sort is illustrated by an incident in July, 1837. Joseph had left on a five-week missionary tour to Canada, only to find on his return that all three of the Witnesses had joined a faction opposing him. This faction rallied around a young girl who claimed to be a seeress by virtue of a black stone in which she read the future. David Whitmer, Martin Harris, and Oliver Cowdery all pledged her their loyalty, and Frederick G. Williams, formerly Joseph's First Counselor, became her scribe. The girl seeress would dance herself into a state of exhaustion, fall to the floor, and burst forth with revelations. (See Lucy Smith: Biographical Sketches, pp. 211-213).
}}
{{propaganda|Martin Harris was considered a wealthy man. How did he get that way if he was so gullible?

Did the witnesses remain convinced that the girl was a prophet?  Did they dedicate the rest of their lives to insisting that her experience was legitimate? By 1837, the witnesses were all opposed to and alienated against Joseph Smith.  This incident illustrates that beautifully--so, why did they not follow up and finish off Joseph's destruction by admitting to the fraud?

Members of the Church would not be surprised that those who apostatize can come to believe all sorts of strange or frankly false things to explain and justify their unbelief--MormonThink is, in fact, a good example of that phenomenon.  This does not impact the truthfulness of the witnesses' accounts--in fact, it increases them since they would have been highly motivated to find a way to explain away what they had seen.  But they did not.
}}

==Response to claim: "All of the witness should have been much more vocal and been interviewed much more often"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=All of the witness should have been much more vocal and been interviewed much more often. There are very few interviews done with the witnesses that provide any additional information or corroboration of their statements. You would think that these people, after seeing such a magnificent sight, would spend their time testifying to the world about their experience instead of largely just signing a prepared statement and avoiding interviews by the media. Only three of the eight witnesses made separate statements that they had handled the plates. They were Joseph's two brothers, Hyrum and Samuel, and John Whitmer.
}}
{{disinformation|What? You mean they didn't? There are many testimonies and statements of the witnesses&mdash;especially David Whitmer. So, are we supposed to believe that these men would simply put their lives on hold for the next 50 years or so and just continue talking about their experience endlessly? They gave all the detail that there was to be had&mdash;what more are you looking for? There are only so many ways to describe an angel and a set of plates. Who said that they avoided interviews with "the media" (a 20th-century term if there ever was one). There are well-documented interviews with some of the witnesses in "the media." (See, for example, {{Book:Cook:David Whitmer Interviews}})
}}

==Response to claim: "it would have helped had all the witnesses remained loyal to the Church for the rest of their lives"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=And of course it would have helped had all the witnesses remained loyal to the Church for the rest of their lives instead of having most of them abandon it later on. It doesn't make much sense to leave the one, true Church of God if you have really received an indisputable witness that it was true. Why would these people risk being cast in Outer Darkness for all eternity for denying what they KNEW to be true unless they maybe had some doubts?
}}
{{disinformation|Actually, quite the opposite is true. Their witness is much stronger ''because'' they left the Church after disagreeing with Joseph. If the witnesses did not really see what they claimed to have seen, then why did they not expose the deception when they had their fallings out with Joseph Smith and the Church? Why didn't a single witness expose the sham?

Why not correctly state that the witnesses were ''not'' witnesses of the "one, true Church of God?" They were witnesses to the angel and the existence of the gold plates. That is all. They never denied their witness. Isn't it more persuasive to be alienated from Joseph Smith and the Church, and yet continue to insist that you'd seen the plates (and, for the three, the angel)? If the witnesses had all remained faithful for their entire lives, wouldn't MormonThink now be claiming that they had a "vested interest" in sticking to their story?
}}

==Response to claim: "It's also quite possible that Oliver was in on a deception with Joseph"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=It's also quite possible that Oliver was in on a deception with Joseph, assuming the BOM story isn't true. If so, he could have helped convince the others that they were experiencing something that was not tangible, like the second-sight experiences many people had at the time.
}}
{{propaganda|Yet more groundless speculation. If Oliver was "in on a deception" with Joseph, then why didn't he expose the deception after he had his falling out with Joseph? Why did Oliver continue to hold to his story of being a witness of the plates? Why didn't Oliver denounce the statement signed by him in every copy of the Book of Mormon?
}}

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