View source for Criticism of Mormonism/Books/An Insider's View of Mormon Origins/Chapter 6

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|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Books/An Insider's View of Mormon Origins/Chapter 6
|H=Response to claims made in "Chapter 6: Witnesses to the Golden Plates"
|T=[[../../|An Insider's View of Mormon Origins]]
|A=Grant Palmer
|<=[[../Chapter 5|Claims made in "Chapter 5: Moroni and 'The Golden Pot'"]]
|>=[[../Chapter 7|Claims made in "Chapter 7: Priesthood Restoration"]]
}}
[[File:Chart.insiders.view.chapter 6 witnesses.png|center|frame]]
<onlyinclude>
{{H2
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Books/An Insider's View of Mormon Origins/Index/Chapter 6
|H=Response to claims made in An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, "Chapter 6: Witnesses to the Golden Plates"
|S=
|L1=Response to claim: 175 - The author claims that the Book of Mormon witnesses had a "magical mindset" and believed in "second sight"
|L2=Response to claim: 175-176, n2-4 - The witnesses believed in the ability to see spirits and their dwelling places within the local hills
|L3=Response to claim: 178, n7-8 - Martin Harris participated in his own "treasure adventures" after meeting Joseph Smith
|L4=Response to claim: 178, n9-10 - Martin Harris said that he "informed Joseph Smith about the gold plates" and that he could see the gold plates through a cloth
|L5=Response to claim: 179 - The author claims that the Whitmers all believed that they could see things with stones and dowsing sticks
|L6=Response to claim: 179, n11-12 - The author claims that Oliver Cowdery was a treasure hunter and "rodsman" before he met Joseph Smith
|L7=Response to claim: 179, n13 - Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris saw the plates in a vision before meeting Joseph Smith
|L8=Response to claim: 181 - David and possibly John Whitmer owned seer stones
|L9=Response to claim: 186 - According to the author, Brigham Young heard from the Smiths and believed all his life that "these treasures that are in the earth are carefully watched"
|L10=Response to claim: 186 - The Smith's often told neighbors stories about treasures Joseph found in the earth
|L11=Response to claim: 188 - Joseph claimed to know the location of Captain Kidd's treasure
|L12=Response to claim: 191 - A number of witnesses saw a cave in the Hill Cumorah when the plates were returned to the angel
|L13=Response to claim: 194 - Martin Harris said that marvelous things appeared to Hyrum, Joseph Sr. and Joseph Jr. while they were treasure hunting
|L14=Response to claim: 194-195 - The gold plates that the "witnesses" saw are said to have disappeared when placed on the ground at the hill Cumorah
|L15=Response to claim: 195 - The witnesses believed that there was a toad that turned into something else hiding in the box that held the plates
|L16=Response to claim: 197, n57 - The author claims that the testimony of the Three Witnesses was of a vision rather than an actual visit by an angel
|L17=Response to claim: 197-198, n58-61 - It is claimed that David Whitmer indicated that the visit of the angel was spiritual rather than real
|L18=Response to claim: 198, n62-64 - Martin Harris claimed to see the plates with "the eye of faith"
|L19=Response to claim: 200, n72-73 - David Whitmer is said to have claimed that he handled the plates in vision, but not physically
|L20=Response to claim: 204, n83 - The author claims that the testimony of the Eight Witnesses does not actually describe a physical incident
|L21=Response to claim: 206 - The Eight Witnesses are claimed to have "hesitated to sign" their testimony because their experience was not physical
|L22=Response to claim: 206, n89 - The author claims that the plates were able to sink and glide through the ground and made noise as they were "rumbling" through the hill
|L23=Response to claim: 206-207, n90 - Viewing the gold plates "too soon" would cause physical death
|L24=Response to claim: 207, n91 - According to the author, declarations of the witnesses "sounded more physical than was intended"
|L25=Response to claim: 207 - "These ideas may have been Joseph's inspiration for making a plate-like object to persuade belief"
|L26=Response to claim: 211, n94 - Joseph is claimed to have appointed James Strang as his successor
|L27=Response to claim: 208, n95 - James Strang also produced witnesses to metal plates
|L28=Response to claim: 212, n105 - All the living witnesses except Oliver Cowdery accepted James Strang's leadership
}}
</onlyinclude>

==Response to claim: 175 - The author claims that the Book of Mormon witnesses had a "magical mindset" and believed in "second sight"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
The author claims that the Book of Mormon witnesses had a "magical mindset" and believed in "second sight"
|authorsources=<br>
#None	
}}
{{propaganda|These men, regardless of whatever beliefs they had in folk magic, were successful and respected in their community. To imply that they didn't actually see what they claimed to see is an attack on their character.
}}
{{:Question: Is someone unreliable because they practiced "treasure hunting" and believed in the use of seer stones to find lost objects?}}

==Response to claim: 175-176, n2-4 - The witnesses believed in the ability to see spirits and their dwelling places within the local hills==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
The witnesses believed in the ability to see spirits and their dwelling places within the local hills.
|authorsources=<br>
*Lucy Mack Smith, History of joseph Smith by His Mother, Lucy Mack Smith (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1958),92, 104.
*Ezra Booth to Presiding Elder, 8 Nov. 1831, in {{CriticalWork:Howe:Mormonism Unvailed|pages=186}}.
*{{s||D&C|110|1}}
*{{s||D&C|76|12}}
*{{s||D&C|76|19}}
*{{s||D&C|110|2-4}}
*{{s||Revelation|1|14-18}}
*Sylvester Smith, quoted by {{JDfairwiki|author=Jedediah M. Grant|disc=44|vol=6|start=254}}
}}
{{propaganda|The author takes several hostile second hand sources and claims that "the witnesses" were all superstitious, unreliable men. Then, he takes scriptures such as Doctrine and Covenants 110:1 to support his odd assertion:
<blockquote>
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
</blockquote>
This scripture provides no support for the notion that the Book of Mormon witnesses could see "spirits and their dwelling places within the local hills."	
}}
{{:Question: Is someone unreliable because they practiced "treasure hunting" and believed in the use of seer stones to find lost objects?}}

==Response to claim: 178, n7-8 - Martin Harris participated in his own "treasure adventures" after meeting Joseph Smith==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
The author claims that Martin Harris participated in his own "treasure adventures" after meeting Joseph Smith.
|authorsources=<br>
*Ole A. Jensen, "Testimony Given to Ole A. Jensen by Martin Harris," July 1875,3, archives, Historical Department, Church ofJesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City (hereafter LDS archives); quoted in Dan Vogel, ''Early Mormon Documents'' 2:376.
*{{JDfairwiki|author=Brigham Young|disc=8|vol=19|start=37}}
*Brigham Young, Office Journal, 21 Nov. 1861, LDS archives.
}}
{{propaganda|The author is stretching things when he claims that Martin Harris participated in "treasure adventures" after meeting Joseph. Here's what Brigham Young said:
<blockquote>
I will tell you a story which will be marvelous to most of you. It was told me by Porter, whom I would believe just as quickly as any man that lives. When he tells a thing he understands, he will tell it just as he knows it; he is a man that does not lie. He said that on this night, when they were engaged hunting for this old treasure, they dug around the end of a chest for some twenty inches. The chest was about three feet square. One man who was determined to have the contents of that chest, took his pick and struck into the lid of it, and split through into the chest. The blow took off a piece of the lid, which a certain lady kept in her possession until she died. That chest of money went into the bank. Porter describes it so [making a rumbling sound]; he says this is just as true as the heavens are. I have heard others tell the same story.
</blockquote>	
}}
{{:Question: What did Martin Harris's non-Mormon associates say about his character?}}

==Response to claim: 178, n9-10 - Martin Harris said that he "informed Joseph Smith about the gold plates" and that he could see the gold plates through a cloth==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
Martin Harris said that he "informed Joseph Smith about the gold plates" and that he could see the gold plates through a cloth.
|authorsources=<br>
*Martin Harris, interview by Joel Tiffany, Jan. 1859, in "Mormonism," ''Tiffany's Monthly'' (New York City) 5 (Aug. 1859): 166; quoted in Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 2:306.
*Martin Harris, interview by John A. Clark, 1828, in "Modern Superstition-The Mormonites," The Visitor, or Monthly Instructor, for 1841, 239; quoted in Vogel, ''Early Mormon Documents'', 2:270.	
}}
{{misinformation|These are not reports of what Martin Harris said - they are third-hand accounts of things that Martin is alleged to have said. The comment about seeing the plates "through a cloth" refers to the early days of the Book of Mormon translation when the plates were covered by a cloth and were not allowed to be viewed by anyone. This is prior to Harris' witness of the angel and the plates, during which he saw the plates directly.
}}
{{:Question: Did Martin Harris tell people that he did not see the plates with his natural eyes, but rather the "eye of faith"?}}

==Response to claim: 179 - The author claims that the Whitmers all believed that they could see things with stones and dowsing sticks==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
The author claims that the Whitmers all believed that they could see things with stones and dowsing sticks.
}}
{{propaganda|So what? Many people believed in the ability to use divining rods and seer stones. It says nothing about the character of these men.	
}}
{{:Question: What did David Whitmer's associates say about his character?}}

==Response to claim: 179, n11-12 - The author claims that Oliver Cowdery was a treasure hunter and "rodsman" before he met Joseph Smith==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
The author claims that Oliver Cowdery was a treasure hunter and "rodsman" before he met Joseph Smith, and that William Cowdery (Oliver's father) was associated with a treasure seeking group in Vermont.
|authorsources=<br>
*Vogel, "Barnes Frisbie Account," ''Early Mormon Documents'', 1:599-621.
*Book of Commandments 7:3 (1833), in Wilford C. Wood, ed., Joseph Smith Begins His Work: The Book of Commandments, 2 vols. (Salt Lake City: by the Author, 1962), vol. 2; d. D&C 8:6-8.	
}}
{{information|Oliver did use a divining rod, but this says nothing about Oliver's character or reliability.
}}
{{:Source:Revelations in Context on history.lds.org:Oliver Cowdery's Gift:Cowdery was among those who believed in and used a divining rod}}
{{:Question: What did Oliver Cowdery's associates say about his character?}}

==Response to claim: 179, n13 - Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris saw the plates in a vision before meeting Joseph Smith==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris saw the plates in a vision before meeting Joseph Smith.
|authorsources=<br>
*Martin Harris, interview by Joel Tiffany, Jan. 1859, in "Mormonism," ''Tiffany's Monthly'' (New York City) 5 (Aug. 1859): 166; quoted in Vogel, ''Early Mormon Documents'', 2:306.
*Dean C. Jessee, ed., ''The Papers of Joseph Smith: Autobiographical and Historical Writings'' (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1989), 1: 10.	
}}
{{information|Joseph's mother Lucy Mack Smith reported that Oliver had seen the plates in a vision prior to meeting her son:
<blockquote>
Lord appeared unto a young man by the name of Oliver Cowdery and showed unto him the plates in a vision.<ref>''Early Mormon Documents'' 1: 379.</ref>
</blockquote>
}}

==Response to claim: 181 - David and possibly John Whitmer owned seer stones==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
David and possibly John Whitmer owned seer stones.
|authorsources=<br>
#
}}
|authorsources=<br>
#{{CriticalWork:Quinn:Magic World View|pages=239-40, 247-48}}.	
}}
{{information|This is likely correct. One of David Whitmer's issues with Joseph Smith was that Joseph stopped using the seer stone to receive revelation. Whitmer felt that this was incorrect and that the only valid revelations were those received using the stone (referred to as the "Urim and Thummim" in the Doctrine and Covenants).
}}

==Response to claim: 186 - According to the author, Brigham Young heard from the Smiths and believed all his life that "these treasures that are in the earth are carefully watched"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
According to the author, Brigham Young '''heard from the Smiths''' and believed all his life that '''"these treasures that are in the earth are carefully watched; they can be removed from place to place"''' by the angels. {{ea}}
|authorsources=<br>
#{{JDfairwiki|author=Brigham Young|disc=8|vol=19|start=36|end=37}}
}}
{{misinformation|The author takes a quote spoken by Brigham Young in 1877 in which he discourages prospecting for minerals in Utah, and implies that his belief regarding "moving treasure" originated with "the Smiths." Brigham goes on to talk about the difficulty in obtaining treasures from the earth, and relates a story involving Porter Rockwell as well as a story he heard from Oliver Cowdery about how the plates were returned to the angel Moroni. Nowhere in his discourse does Brigham mention "the Smiths."
}}

==Response to claim: 186 - The Smith's often told neighbors stories about treasures Joseph found in the earth==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
The Smith's often told neighbors stories about treasures Joseph found in the earth.
|authorsources=<br>
#Jesse Smith to Hyrum Smith, 17 June 1829, Joseph Smith Letterbook, 2:59-61, LDS archives; quoted in Vogel, ''Early Mormon Documents'', 1:552.
}}
{{information|It was well known that Joseph acted as a "village seer" and was able to locate items.
}}
{{:Question: Was Joseph Smith's participation in "money digging" as a youth a blot on his character?}}

==Response to claim: 188 - Joseph claimed to know the location of Captain Kidd's treasure==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|titleAn Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
Joseph claimed to know the location of Captain Kidd's treasure.
|authorsources=<br>
#Statement of W. R. Hine in Deming, ''Naked Truths'' 1 Jan. 1888: 2.
}}
{{propaganda|This claim comes from a single, hostile, late third-hand source. From the cited source:
<blockquote>
Jo Smith claimed to be a seer. He had a very clear stone about the size and shape of a duck's egg, and claimed that he could see lost or hidden things through it. He said he saw Captain Kidd sailing on the Susquehanna River during a freshet, and that he buried two pots of gold and silver. He claimed he saw writing cut on the rocks in an unknown language telling where Kidd buried it, and he translated it through his peep-stone. I have had it many times and could see in it whatever I imagined. Jo claimed it was found in digging a well in Palmyra, N.Y. He said he borrowed it. He claimed to receive revelations from the Lord through prayer, and would pray with his men, mornings and at other times. His father told me he was fifteen years old.<ref>"W. R. HINE'S STATEMENT," ''Naked Truths About Mormonism'', Vol. I. No. 1. (January, 1888) edited by Arthur B. Deming.</ref>
</blockquote>
}}

==Response to claim: 191 - A number of witnesses saw a cave in the Hill Cumorah when the plates were returned to the angel==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
Brigham Young spoke of a cave in the Hill Cumorah where the plates were returned to the angel.
|authorsources=<br>
*{{JDfairwiki|author=Brigham Young|disc=8|vol=19|start=38}}.
*Wilford Woodruff's journal, 1833-98, typescript, ed. Scott G. Kenny, 9 vols. (Midvale, UT: Signature Books, 1984), 11 Dec. 1869, 6:508-9.
}}
{{information|Multiple witnesses report that the plates were returned to a cave at the Hill Cumorah.	
}}
{{:Question: Is there a cave in the Hill Cumorah containing the Nephite records?}}

==Response to claim: 194 - Martin Harris said that marvelous things appeared to Hyrum, Joseph Sr. and Joseph Jr. while they were treasure hunting==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
Martin Harris said that marvelous things appeared to Hyrum, Joseph Sr. and Joseph Jr. while they were treasure hunting. 
|authorsources=<br>
#Martin Harris, ''Tiffany's Monthly'' 5 (Aug. 1859): 165; quoted in Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 2:305.	
}}
{{information|Martin told such stories.
}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith and his contemporaries believe in supernatural entities with real power?}}

==Response to claim: 194-195 - The gold plates that the "witnesses" saw are said to have disappeared when placed on the ground at the hill Cumorah==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
The gold plates that the "witnesses" saw are said to have disappeared when placed on the ground at the hill Cumorah.
|authorsources=<br>
#{{CriticalWork:Howe:Mormonism Unvailed|pages=242}}.	
}}
{{disinformation|The author loosely defines who were considered "witnesses." William Stafford is the one that reported treasure "sinking into the ground," yet Stafford never saw the plates. He was ''not'' one of the Book of Mormon witnesses.
}}
{{:Question: What did William Stafford claim about Joseph Smith in the Hurlbut affidavits?}}

==Response to claim: 195 - The witnesses believed that there was a toad that turned into something else hiding in the box that held the plates==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
The witnesses believed that there was a toad that turned into something else hiding in the box that held the plates.
|authorsources=<br>
#{{CriticalWork:Howe:Mormonism Unvailed|pages=}}.	
}}
{{disinformation|The author redefines who the "witnesses" are: Willard Chase was not of the Book of Mormon witnesses.
}}
{{:Question: What did Willard Chase claim about Joseph Smith in the Hurlbut affidavits?}}

==Response to claim: 197, n57 - The author claims that the testimony of the Three Witnesses was of a vision rather than an actual visit by an angel==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
The author claims that the testimony of the Three Witnesses was of a vision rather than an actual visit by an angel.
|authorsources=<br>
#Jessee, ''Papers of Joseph Smith'' 1:296.
}}
{{propaganda|The author has to disregard many direct statements of the Book of Mormon witnesses in order to draw this conclusion.
}}
{{:Question: Did the three witnesses's experience of seeing the plates and the angel take place only in their minds?}}
{{:Question: Does the belief that the experience had visionary qualities contradict the claim that the plates were real?}}
{{:Source:Martin Harris:Painesville Telegraph:1831:He had seen and handled them all}}
{{:Source:David Whitmer:Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses:86:1:we were in the spirit when we had the view...but we were in the body also}}
{{:Source:Painesville Telegraph:16 Nov 1830:Cowdery pretends to have a divine mission and conversed with angels}}
{{:Source:Martin Harris:Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses:116:1:Do you see that hand}}
{{:Source:Edward Stevenson:1870:Millennial Star:Martin Harris:my belief is swallowed up in knowledge; for I want to say to you that as the Lord lives I do know that I stood with the Prophet Joseph Smith in the presence of the angel}}
{{:Source:Martin Harris:Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses:117:1:I know what I know}}

==Response to claim: 197-198, n58-61 - It is claimed that David Whitmer indicated that the visit of the angel was spiritual rather than real==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
It is claimed that David Whitmer indicated that the visit of the angel was spiritual rather than real.
|authorsources=<br>
*James Henry Moyle, Journal, 28 June 1885,James Henry Moyle Papers, F508:1, LDS archives.
*Nibley, ''Witnesses of the Book of Mormon'', 92-95.
*David Whitmer, interview by Zenas H. Gurley Jr., 14 Jan. 1885, typescript, 04681, LDS archives.
*David Whitmer, interview by Edmund C. Briggs, in "Letter from Edmund C. Briggs to Joseph Smith III," 4 June 1884, Saints' Herald, 21 June 1884, 396
*David Whitmer, interview by Edward Stevenson, Journal, 22 Dec. 1877,4806:2, LDS archives.
*David Whitmer, ''An Address to All Believers in Christ'',32
*Francis Kirkham, ''A New Witness for Christ in America'', 2:349-50.
}}
{{misinformation|When David Whitmer's description of his witness experience was misrepresented, he made great efforts to publicly correct it. A good example of this is his public rebuttal to John Murphy's claims that Whitmer's experience was merely a "delusion."
}}
{{:Source:Echoes:Ch2:8:David Whitmer:I saw with these eyes and I heard with these ears}}
{{:Source:David Whitmer:Rebuttal to John Murphy 19 March 1881:EMD 5:69:Which has so long since been published with that book as one of the three witnesses}}

==Response to claim: 198, n62-64 - Martin Harris claimed to see the plates with "the eye of faith"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
Martin Harris claimed to see the plates with "the eye of faith."
|authorsources=<br>
*Martin Harris, interview by Anthony Metcalf, ca. 1873, in ''Ten Years before the Mast'' 70; quoted in Vogel, ''Early Mormon Documents'', 2:346-47.
*Martin Harris, quoted in The Visitor, or Monthly Instructor, for 1841, 239; quoted in Vogel, ''Early Mormon Documents, 2:270.
*Marvin S. Hill, "Secular or Sectarian History? A Critique of ''No Man Knows My History,'' Church History 43 (Mar. 1974): 92-93; quoted in Vogel, ''Early Mormon Documents'', 2:385, 526.
}}
{{misinformation|The author selectively focuses on a few reported quotes in which Martin mentioned "spiritual eyes," and ignores the multitude of quotes in which Martin said straight out that he saw the angel and handled the plates with his hands. 
}}
{{:Question: Did Martin Harris tell people that he did not see the plates with his natural eyes, but rather the "eye of faith"?}}
{{:Question: Did Martin Harris tell people that he only saw the plates with his "spiritual eye"?}}
{{:Question: Why would Martin Harris use the phrases "eye of faith" or "spiritual eye" to describe his visionary experience?}}
{{:Question: Do Martin Harris's statements related to the "spiritual eye" or "eye of faith" contradict the reality of his witness?}}
<!-- ====198, n65====
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title={{check}}
|claim=Some of the three witnesses claimed that they handled the plates during the angel's visit.
}}
|authorsources=<br>
#65. Lucy Smith, "Preliminary Manuscript," in Vogel, ''Early Mormon Documents'', 1:395.	
}} -->

==Response to claim: 200, n72-73 - David Whitmer is said to have claimed that he handled the plates in vision, but not physically==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
David Whitmer is said to have claimed that he handled the plates in vision, but not physically.
|authorsources=<br>
*Moyle, Journal, 28 June 1885.
*Nibley, Witnesses of the Book of Mormon, 94-95.
}}
{{misinformation|Whitmer was always careful to correct those who tried to portray his witness experience as anything less than real.
}}
{{:Question: Did the three witnesses's experience of seeing the plates and the angel take place only in their minds?}}
{{:Question: Does the belief that the experience had visionary qualities contradict the claim that the plates were real?}}
{{:Source:David Whitmer:Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses:86:1:we were in the spirit when we had the view...but we were in the body also}}
{{:Source:Echoes:Ch2:8:David Whitmer:I saw with these eyes and I heard with these ears}}

==Response to claim: 204, n83 - The author claims that the testimony of the Eight Witnesses does not actually describe a physical incident==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
The author claims that the testimony of the Eight Witnesses does not actually describe a physical incident.
|authorsources=<br>
#Stephen Burnett to Lyman E. Johnson, 15 Apr. 1838, Joseph Smith Letterbook, 2:64-66, d155/2:2, LDS archives; quoted in Vogel, ''Early Mormon Documents'', 2:288-93.
}}
{{misinformation|The term "supernatural" is used as a synonym for "miraculous."
}}
{{:Question: Did John Whitmer, one of the Eight Witnesses, actually say that he saw the plates by a "supernatural power"?}}
{{:Question: What did the Book of Mormon witnesses mean when they used the word "supernatural" to describe their experiences?}}

==Response to claim: 206 - The Eight Witnesses are claimed to have "hesitated to sign" their testimony because their experience was not physical==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
The Eight Witnesses are claimed to have "hesitated to sign" their testimony because their experience was not physical.
|authorsources=<br>
#Reference for phrase "hesitated to sign" is related to earlier note 83, page 204. Stephen Burnett to Lyman E. Johnson, 15 Apr. 1838, Joseph Smith Letterbook, 2:64-66, d155/2:2, LDS archives; quoted in Vogel, ''Early Mormon Documents'', 2:288-93.
}}
{{misinformation|A second-hand account is used to claim that the witnesses never saw the plates and that they were only viewed while covered with a cloth. However, the reference to the plates being covered with a cloth refers to the period during the translation process, at which time nobody was allowed to view the plates. This occurs prior to the experience of the Three and Eight Witnesses, during which they actually viewed the plates.
}}
{{:Question: Did Martin Harris claim that he only saw the gold plates as they were covered "as a city through a mountain"?}}
<!-- ====206====
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title={{check}}
|claim=The author claims that the gold plates belong to another world rather than this one.
}}
*[[Book of Mormon/Anachronisms/Gold plates|Book of Mormon anachronisms&mdash;Gold plates]]
|authorsources=<br>
#Author's opinion.	
}} -->

==Response to claim: 206, n89 - The author claims that the plates were able to sink and glide through the ground and made noise as they were "rumbling" through the hill==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
The author claims that the plates were able to sink and glide through the ground and made noise as they were "rumbling" through the hill.
|authorsources=<br>
*Martin Harris, quoted in John A. Clark, "Modern Superstition-The Mormonites," 63; quoted in Vogel, ''Early Mormon Documents'', 2:265.
*Affidavit of Willard Chase, 11 Dec. 1833, in {{CriticalWork:Howe:Mormonism Unvailed|pages=242}}.
*Lucy Smith, History of Joseph Smith, 83-84.
}}
{{disinformation|Nobody ever claimed that the gold plates sunk and glided through the ground with a rumbling sound. This appears to be a misrepresentation of a story told years later by Brigham Young about searching for "old treasures" in the earth that moved and made a "rumbling" sound as they moved. This was ''not'' a description of the gold plates. Brigham said:
<blockquote>
I will tell you a story which will be marvelous to most of you. It was told me by Porter, whom I would believe just as quickly as any man that lives. When he tells a thing he understands, he will tell it just as he knows it; he is a man that does not lie. He said that on this night, when they were engaged hunting for this old treasure, they dug around the end of a chest for some twenty inches. The chest was about three feet square. One man who was determined to have the contents of that chest, took his pick and struck into the lid of it, and split through into the chest. The blow took off a piece of the lid, which a certain lady kept in her possession until she died. That chest of money went into the bank. Porter describes it so [making a rumbling sound]; he says this is just as true as the heavens are. I have heard others tell the same story.<ref>{{JDfairwiki|author=Brigham Young|disc=8|vol=19|start=37}}</ref>
</blockquote>	
}}
{{:Question: What did Willard Chase claim about Joseph Smith in the Hurlbut affidavits?}}

==Response to claim: 206-207, n90 - Viewing the gold plates "too soon" would cause physical death==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
Viewing the gold plates "too soon" would cause physical death.
|authorsources=<br>
*Joseph Smith-History 1:42.
*Affidavit of Sophia Lewis, 20 Mar. 1834, Susquehanna Register, 1 May 1834, 1.
*{{CriticalWork:Howe:Mormonism Unvailed|pages=272}}.	
}}
{{misinformation|Joseph said that if he showed the plates to anyone that God would strike ''Joseph'' down, not Martin.
}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith say that viewing the gold plates would result in death?}}

==Response to claim: 207, n91 - According to the author, declarations of the witnesses "sounded more physical than was intended"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
According to the author, declarations of the witnesses "sounded more physical than was intended."
|authorsources=<br>
*Moses 6:36.
*D&C 67:10; 131:7.
*Lucy Smith, ''History of Joseph Smith'', 92.
}}
{{propaganda|This is pure speculation on the part of the author.
}}
{{:Question: Did the three witnesses's experience of seeing the plates and the angel take place only in their minds?}}

==Response to claim: 207 - "These ideas may have been Joseph's inspiration for making a plate-like object to persuade belief"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
{{AuthorQuote|These ideas may have been Joseph's inspiration for making a plate-like object to persuade belief.}}
|authorsources=<br>
#Author's speculation.
}}
{{propaganda|This is circular reasoning: The author offers a number of documented instances in which witnesses described the physical plates...then concludes that Joseph must have made a physical object to fool them!
}}
{{:Question: What material were the plates made from?}}
{{:Question: How much did the gold plates weigh?}}
{{:Question: What was the size of each of the gold plates?}}
{{:Question: What was the thickness of each gold plate}}
{{:Question: What was the thickness of entire volume of gold plates?}}
{{:Question: What were the characteristics of the sealed vs. unsealed portion of the gold plates?}}
{{:Question: What were the characteristics of the rings which held the gold plates together?}}
{{:Question: What was the appearance of the engravings on the gold plates?}}

==Response to claim: 211, n94 - Joseph is claimed to have appointed James Strang as his successor==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
Joseph is claimed to have appointed James Strang as his successor.
|authorsources=<br>
#James J. Strang, "Letter from Joseph Smith to James J. Strang," 18 June 1844, in Voree [WI] Herald 1 (Jan. 1846).
}}
{{information|Strang is the one who claimed this.
}}
{{:Question: Who was James Strang?}}

==Response to claim: 208, n95 - James Strang also produced witnesses to metal plates==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
James Strang also produced witnesses to metal plates.
|authorsources=<br>
#James J. Strang, "Revelation Given to James J. Strang," 1 Sept. 1845, Voree Herald 1 Gan. 1846): [3-4]; Van Noord, King of Beaver Island, 33-35.
|provenance={{CriticalWork:Tanner:Changing World|pages=99-100}}
}}
{{information|Yes, and these witnesses never claimed to see an angel, and some later claimed to have assisted in the fabrication of the plates.
}}
{{:Question: Of what did the Strangite witnesses testify?}}
{{:Question: What are the differences between the Strangite witnesse statements and those of the Three and Eight Witnesses to the Book of Mormon?}}

==Response to claim: 212, n105 - All the living witnesses except Oliver Cowdery accepted James Strang's leadership==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
All the living witnesses except Oliver Cowdery accepted James Strang's leadership.
|authorsources=<br>
#"Kirtland," in Voree Herald 1 (Sept. 1846): [4]
}}
{{propaganda|Every Latter-day Saint knows that all three of the Three Witnesses left the Church due to disagreements with Joseph Smith and the belief that he was a fallen prophet, yet they still believed in the Book of Mormon. So they were searching for a replacement, and after years of searching, Oliver and Martin returned to the Church. Is the author implying that these men still had the spirit of discernment after they were excommunicated?
}}
The witnesses were all disaffected with Joseph Smith as a prophet and had rejected him as the leader of the Church, yet they continued to believe in the divinity of the Book of Mormon and never denied their witness. Each of the witnesses attempted to fill the void by either joining other churches or attempting to reestablish the original church that Joseph had started. It is no surprise that some of the witnesses gravitated to Strang's effort to re-create the Church, including a new set of plates and a new translated record.
{{endnotes sources}}