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{{título del recurso|Respuesta a PiensaMormón página "Corriendo con Planchas de Oro"}} | {{título del recurso|Respuesta a PiensaMormón página "Corriendo con Planchas de Oro"}} | ||
{{FairMormonAnalysisHeader | {{FairMormonAnalysisHeader | ||
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− | | | + | |autor=Anónimo |
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− | | | + | |sección=Corriendo con Planchas de Oro |
− | | | + | |anterior=[[../Tithing|Tithing]] |
− | | | + | |próximo=[[../Joseph's Translation of the Bible|Joseph's Translation of the Bible]] |
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<!-- {{Website response summary|date=29 April 2012}} --> | <!-- {{Website response summary|date=29 April 2012}} --> | ||
− | {{ | + | {{PiensaMormónResumenRubro|Joseph Running with the Plates}} |
* That the plates probably did not weigh 200 lbs, and yet despite this that it was impossible for Joseph to have run for 1-2 miles carrying the 40-60 lbs plates. | * That the plates probably did not weigh 200 lbs, and yet despite this that it was impossible for Joseph to have run for 1-2 miles carrying the 40-60 lbs plates. | ||
* That Joseph could not have fought off or evaded the three men trying to take the plates from him. | * That Joseph could not have fought off or evaded the three men trying to take the plates from him. | ||
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− | {{ | + | {{PiensaMormónReclamaciónÍndice |
− | | | + | |reclamación=The critics say that Joseph could not have possibly transported and worked with these heavy 200 pound plates. Also pure gold would be too malleable to be useful for permanent engraving....In this instance [MormonThink] disagree[s] with the critics' premise. We don't feel that the plates had to be made of solid gold. Although the plates are often referred to as 'gold plates' they didn't necessary have to be made of pure gold. The witnesses described them as having the 'appearance of gold'....We do however, wonder why the angel would give Joseph specific instruction that he could not use the plates for personal gain if they were not made of gold....So using the statements of the witnesses, it seems logical that the plates weighed about 50 pounds give or take 10 pounds. We summarily reject the critics' arguments that the plates must have weighed 200 pounds. |
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*MormonThink finally gets one right. Interesting, though, that they use this to appear as if they are "objective" and weighing the evidence--but they then go on to distort the evidence they present later. | *MormonThink finally gets one right. Interesting, though, that they use this to appear as if they are "objective" and weighing the evidence--but they then go on to distort the evidence they present later. | ||
*A ''solid block of gold'' of the dimensions described by Joseph Smith and the witnesses would weigh 200 pounds, but does not account for any air space between leaves. The plates were not a solid block of gold. Pure gold is too soft to create such plates. It makes you think—were the plates made of a [[Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Gold_plates#Of_what_material_were_the_plates.3F|lighter alloy]]? | *A ''solid block of gold'' of the dimensions described by Joseph Smith and the witnesses would weigh 200 pounds, but does not account for any air space between leaves. The plates were not a solid block of gold. Pure gold is too soft to create such plates. It makes you think—were the plates made of a [[Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Gold_plates#Of_what_material_were_the_plates.3F|lighter alloy]]? | ||
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|quote= | |quote= | ||
* The plates were "a mixture of gold and copper" - William Smith, ''The Saints' Herald'' (4 October 1884): 644. | * The plates were "a mixture of gold and copper" - William Smith, ''The Saints' Herald'' (4 October 1884): 644. | ||
− | | | + | |enlace=Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Description_of_the_plates |
− | | | + | |sujeto=Description of the plates |
− | | | + | |sumario=How did the many witnesses describe the plates and related items? |
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− | {{ | + | {{PiensaMormónReclamaciónÍndice |
− | | | + | |reclamación=How could any man, especially a man that had a slight limp run with a 50 pound weight and avoid capture by three assailants? The journey through the woods was about 3 miles as Joseph indicated above. It's inconceivable that anybody could run carrying a 50 lb. set of metal plates, jumping over logs and such and be able to outrun three men for some 1 to 2 miles that were bent on taking the plates from Joseph. And all this from a young man that had a slight limp and would have difficulty running at a high speed for a long distance -especially carrying a 50 lb. weight. |
− | | | + | |pensar= |
* Several people [[Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Description_of_the_plates#Weight|testified of the plates' weight]], and they all knew Joseph Smith. None of ''them'' found the story inherently impossible. None of them challenged Joseph's tale—including his family who both knew him best ''and'' handled the plates. | * Several people [[Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Description_of_the_plates#Weight|testified of the plates' weight]], and they all knew Joseph Smith. None of ''them'' found the story inherently impossible. None of them challenged Joseph's tale—including his family who both knew him best ''and'' handled the plates. | ||
* Joseph's mother (who [[Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Description_of_the_plates/Too_heavy_for_Joseph_to_run_with#Lucy_Mack_Smith.27s_account|told this story]]) did not say that Joseph "outran" the three men—instead, he was attacked three separate times on his way home. In each case, ''a single man'' tried to ambush him alone, and Joseph struck them, knocked them down, and ran on. | * Joseph's mother (who [[Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Description_of_the_plates/Too_heavy_for_Joseph_to_run_with#Lucy_Mack_Smith.27s_account|told this story]]) did not say that Joseph "outran" the three men—instead, he was attacked three separate times on his way home. In each case, ''a single man'' tried to ambush him alone, and Joseph struck them, knocked them down, and ran on. | ||
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* Hitler's SS trained to run 3 km (1.87 miles) in twenty minutes with full gear.{{ref|ss.1}} | * Hitler's SS trained to run 3 km (1.87 miles) in twenty minutes with full gear.{{ref|ss.1}} | ||
* Israel Defense Force officer candidates must past the "[http://www.foiwa.org.au/aggregator/sources/18 Loren test]"—"scaling a two-meter wall, climbing a three-meter wall, completing an obstacle course, running two miles, and then target-shooting — all in under 22 minutes," and done in full battle gear. | * Israel Defense Force officer candidates must past the "[http://www.foiwa.org.au/aggregator/sources/18 Loren test]"—"scaling a two-meter wall, climbing a three-meter wall, completing an obstacle course, running two miles, and then target-shooting — all in under 22 minutes," and done in full battle gear. | ||
− | | | + | |enlace=Book of Mormon/Translation/Description of the plates/Too heavy for Joseph to run with |
− | | | + | |sujeto=Plates too heavy for Joseph to run with |
− | | | + | |sumario=How heavy were the plates? Could Joseph have run with them as described? |
}} | }} | ||
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− | {{ | + | {{PiensaMormónReclamaciónÍndice |
− | | | + | |reclamación=And all this from a young man that had a slight limp and would have difficulty running at a high speed for a long distance -especially carrying a 50 lb. weight. |
− | | | + | |pensar= |
* Joseph [[Joseph_Smith/Early_Smith_family_history/Early_work_as_a_farmhand|was well-known for his strength and ability to do serious amounts of physical work]], as well as wrestle and pull sticks. | * Joseph [[Joseph_Smith/Early_Smith_family_history/Early_work_as_a_farmhand|was well-known for his strength and ability to do serious amounts of physical work]], as well as wrestle and pull sticks. | ||
* Joseph managed fine during the Zion's Camp march of nearly a thousand miles on foot at 25-40 miles per day (Bushman, ''Rough Stone Rolling'', 239). He'd had the limp since his boyhood operation, and was likely well-adjusted to it. | * Joseph managed fine during the Zion's Camp march of nearly a thousand miles on foot at 25-40 miles per day (Bushman, ''Rough Stone Rolling'', 239). He'd had the limp since his boyhood operation, and was likely well-adjusted to it. | ||
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This doesn't sound like a man whose limp is crippling him--and Joseph was younger and likely more fit during the Book of Mormon translating period, when he was focused almost entirely on farming, rather than splitting his attention as required for Church administration. | This doesn't sound like a man whose limp is crippling him--and Joseph was younger and likely more fit during the Book of Mormon translating period, when he was focused almost entirely on farming, rather than splitting his attention as required for Church administration. | ||
− | | | + | |enlace=Book of Mormon/Translation/Description of the plates/Too heavy for Joseph to run with |
− | | | + | |sujeto=Plates too heavy for Joseph to run with |
− | | | + | |sumario=How heavy were the plates? Could Joseph have run with them as described? |
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− | {{ | + | {{PiensaMormónReclamaciónÍndice |
− | | | + | |reclamación=If the story is but a 'tall tale', regardless of its origins, it should not be taught in church as a true historical account, as we have been taught growing up in the church, just to provide a faith-promoting event. |
− | | | + | |pensar= |
* We have no reason to think it a "tall tale" save MormonThink's "[[Logical_fallacies/Page_1#Argument_from_ignorance|argument from incredulity]]"—they don't believe it can be done, so therefore it's a tall tale. But, people clearly can and ''do'' do what Joseph claimed he did, especially when the story which his [[Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Description_of_the_plates/Too_heavy_for_Joseph_to_run_with#Lucy_Mack_Smith.27s_account|mother actually told]] (three separate attacks by individual men) is considered. | * We have no reason to think it a "tall tale" save MormonThink's "[[Logical_fallacies/Page_1#Argument_from_ignorance|argument from incredulity]]"—they don't believe it can be done, so therefore it's a tall tale. But, people clearly can and ''do'' do what Joseph claimed he did, especially when the story which his [[Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Description_of_the_plates/Too_heavy_for_Joseph_to_run_with#Lucy_Mack_Smith.27s_account|mother actually told]] (three separate attacks by individual men) is considered. | ||
* MormonThink needs to do better than this before labeling a "tall tale" just because they want a faith-destroying non-story. | * MormonThink needs to do better than this before labeling a "tall tale" just because they want a faith-destroying non-story. | ||
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#{{note|ss.1}} Christopher Ailsby, ''SS: Hell on the Eastern Front: The Waffen-SS War in Russia, 1941-1945'' (Osceloa, WI: MBI Publishing Co., 1998), [http://books.google.ca/books?id=HAMd81LJJs4C&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=%22cross-country+running%22+%22full+kit%22&source=bl&ots=UQHKPO0Sp_&sig=l1G51-Qi7kPCiWU46LrA6g3UEj4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UPOdT_H7AuiU2gX5osSaDw&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22cross-country%20running%22%20%22full%20kit%22&f=false p. 18] | #{{note|ss.1}} Christopher Ailsby, ''SS: Hell on the Eastern Front: The Waffen-SS War in Russia, 1941-1945'' (Osceloa, WI: MBI Publishing Co., 1998), [http://books.google.ca/books?id=HAMd81LJJs4C&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=%22cross-country+running%22+%22full+kit%22&source=bl&ots=UQHKPO0Sp_&sig=l1G51-Qi7kPCiWU46LrA6g3UEj4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UPOdT_H7AuiU2gX5osSaDw&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22cross-country%20running%22%20%22full%20kit%22&f=false p. 18] | ||
#{{note|henrie.1}} {{Book:McConkie:Remembering Joseph book|pages=Henrie, William account citing Callie O. Morley, "History of William and Myra Mayall Henrie, Pioneers of 1847 and 1847," Delta, West Millard County, Utah, October 1955, LDS Church Archives, Salt Lake City, Utah, 4-5.}} | #{{note|henrie.1}} {{Book:McConkie:Remembering Joseph book|pages=Henrie, William account citing Callie O. Morley, "History of William and Myra Mayall Henrie, Pioneers of 1847 and 1847," Delta, West Millard County, Utah, October 1955, LDS Church Archives, Salt Lake City, Utah, 4-5.}} |
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