Diferenças entre edições de "Utilizador:InProgress/Mormonism and Wikipedia/Academic among amateurs"

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!width="29%"|Wiki academic<br>"John Foxe,"<br>Bob Jones University,<br>Wikipedia article "First Vision."
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!width="29%"|Wiki academic<br>"John Foxe,"<br>Historian<br>Bob Jones University,<br>Wikipedia article "First Vision."
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!width="20%"|Real world academic<br>John Matzko, Chairperson, Division of Social Science, {{link|url=http://www.bju.edu/academics/faculty/facultymember.php?id=jmatzko}} Bob Jones University.<br>"The Encounter of Young Joseph Smith with Presbyterianism," ''Dialogue''40/3 (2007)
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!width="20%"|Real world academic<br>John Matzko,<br>Chairperson, Division of Social Science, {{link|url=http://www.bju.edu/academics/faculty/facultymember.php?id=jmatzko}}<br>Bob Jones University.<br>"The Encounter of Young Joseph Smith with Presbyterianism," ''Dialogue''40/3 (2007)
 
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*When Joseph reported his earliest vision to his mother, he did not tell her that all Christian sects were equally erroneous. He said that “Presbyterianism [was] not true.”
 
*When Joseph reported his earliest vision to his mother, he did not tell her that all Christian sects were equally erroneous. He said that “Presbyterianism [was] not true.”
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Citations: “Joseph Smith History, 1839,” in Early Mormon Documents, 1:143.
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*Citations: “Joseph Smith History, 1839,” in Early Mormon Documents, 1:143.
 
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*Note the Wikipedia article's claim that "Smith said that he made an oblique reference..." The sentence itself is oddly structured, since Joseph never ''said'' that he made an ''oblique'' reference. This is the Wikipedia editor's effort to insert as many qualifiers as possible in order to minimize the possibility that one might assume that Joseph was telling the truth. Oddly enough, a professor of historical writing ought to catch something such as this.
 
*Note the Wikipedia article's claim that "Smith said that he made an oblique reference..." The sentence itself is oddly structured, since Joseph never ''said'' that he made an ''oblique'' reference. This is the Wikipedia editor's effort to insert as many qualifiers as possible in order to minimize the possibility that one might assume that Joseph was telling the truth. Oddly enough, a professor of historical writing ought to catch something such as this.
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*[S]ometime before 1828 Lucy and three of her children—Hyrum, Samuel, and Sophronia—joined the Presbyterian church where Stockton was the pastor.[15]
 
*[S]ometime before 1828 Lucy and three of her children—Hyrum, Samuel, and Sophronia—joined the Presbyterian church where Stockton was the pastor.[15]
 
*Citations: Lucy Mack Smith, “Preliminary Manuscript” (1845), LDS Church
 
*Citations: Lucy Mack Smith, “Preliminary Manuscript” (1845), LDS Church
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Archives, Salt Lake City, in Early Mormon Documents, 1:306. For notice of the 1824-25 revival, see Wayne Sentinel, March 2, 1825. No membership records of the Western Presbyterian Church survive for this period, and the date of their membership remains controversial, but Lucy Smith strongly implied that she joined the Presbyterian Church after Alvin’s death. Stockton served as pastor of Western Presbyterian Church from February 1824 until October 1827, the mostly likely period of the Smiths’ church membership.
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*Archives, Salt Lake City, in Early Mormon Documents, 1:306. For notice of the 1824-25 revival, see Wayne Sentinel, March 2, 1825. No membership records of the Western Presbyterian Church survive for this period, and the date of their membership remains controversial, but Lucy Smith strongly implied that she joined the Presbyterian Church after Alvin’s death. Stockton served as pastor of Western Presbyterian Church from February 1824 until October 1827, the mostly likely period of the Smiths’ church membership.
 
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*"Foxe" continues his original research by inserting the comment "rather than the actual date of 1824-1825."  
 
*"Foxe" continues his original research by inserting the comment "rather than the actual date of 1824-1825."  
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=====Methodist Property=====
 
=====Methodist Property=====
 
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Edição atual desde as 19h16min de 10 de dezembro de 2009


Editors of LDS related Wikipedia articles
A FAIR Analysis of Wikipedia: A study in contrasts: An academic among amateurs
 A work by a collaboration of authors (Link to Wikipedia article here)
 An analysis of article "First Vision"
Note:
  • This page serves as either an index for or a review of claims and/or responses to attacks on LDS Church made by this online work. The work reviewed is the product of an online collaboration of various authors of varying degrees of faith or skepticism. FAIR has noted particularly bad scholarship related to the research contained in this particular work and/or considers significant elements of this work to be "anti-Mormon" in tone or content.
  • The name Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.. Wikipedia content is copied and made available under the GNU Free Documentation License.

A study in contrasts: An academic among amateurs

In a recent (and excellent) article in the Journal of American History (June 2006), “Can History Be Open Source? Wikipedia and the Future of the Past,” the author, Roy Rosenzweig, notes how “academics and other highly-qualified people” who were initially excited by the project were “slowly worn down and driven away by having to deal with difficult people.” (140) I refuse to be worn down and driven away.
"John Foxe" 7 July 2006 (UTC) off-site

∗       ∗       ∗

The shield of anonymity

I often have sympathy for the practitioners of false religions, but unlike you, I have no "deep respect" for the religions themselves.
That's because they're false. They're lies. "What communion hath light with darkness?"’’
"John Foxe," responding to an LDS editor at "Three Witnesses" Wikipedia Talk Page (28 January 2009)

∗       ∗       ∗

Anonymity provides a passionate Wikipedia editor with certain advantages. A "pseudo persona" such as that created by the Bob Jones University professor who calls himself "John Foxe" [1] has no need to protect his academic reputation. "Foxe" has no stated academic credentials—hence, there is no reputation to maintain. This allows the persona to safely reflect the true inner thoughts of the corresponding "real world" editor without the danger of having any of the persona's activities reflect upon his or her "real world" reputation and credentials. Since "Foxe" has researched Mormonism at BYU and has interacted with a number of Latter-day Saints, we are confident that the real-world alter ego of "John Foxe" discusses Mormonism with Latter-day Saints in a more respectful and restrained manner than that of his more uninhibited on-line persona.

For example, it is difficult to imagine the real-world professor boldly declaring to Latter-day Saints he meets for the first time that "Joseph not only lied, he committed serial adultery," [2] or claiming "I often have sympathy for the practitioners of false religions, but unlike you, I have no 'deep respect' for the religions themselves. That's because they're false. They're lies. 'What communion hath light with darkness?'" [3]

"Foxe's" online boldness and sarcasm are not limited to Latter-day Saints. It is difficult to imagine the real-world counterpart of "John Foxe" telling someone: "Frankly, I don't care whether you're a reprobate, a pedestrian, or a Martian." [4] Yet, the online persona finds this type of interaction perfectly acceptable. The real-world professor, on the other hand, would find it embarrassing to have such comments attributed to him.

"Real world" academics versus wiki academics

At last, the truth comes out. Now your condescending attitude towards all of us amateurs makes more sense.
It has long been obvious that you are a better wordsmith than I, that doesn't make your words any more or less true.
Joseph Smith, Jr. was barely literate when he first saw God the Father and Jesus Christ, I am glad to stand with them.
—Wikipedia editor "74s181" (5 November 2007) off-site

∗       ∗       ∗

Consider a well written article such as Dr. John Matzko’s “The Encounter of the Young Joseph Smith with Presbyterianism” which is both stylistically and substantively superior when compared to what passes for scholarship in a typical LDS-related Wikipedia article. It is enlightening to contrast Dr. Matzko’s approach with the approach of wiki editor John "Foxe." Both editors are highly educated and involved with teaching history at BJU. While Dr. Matzko’s article goes through peer review in order to produce a final draft, [5] Wikipedia articles such as “First Vision” and “Joseph Smith, Jr.” essentially suffer through an endless and continuous “peer review.” The frustration for the “Wikipedia academic” is that many of the “peers” performing the review are not scholars. Even more frustrating for “Foxe,” many of the “peers” attempting to review an article are either passionate LDS believers or passionate critics who wish to insert any number of potentially unsubstantiated claims. Thus, while Dr. Matzko is able to produce an intelligent and coherent article (admittedly from a non-believer’s perspective), “Foxe” is unable to keep dedicated non-scholarly believers and critics from attempting to “spin” an article in a direction that he does not wish it to go. The articles that he cares about, therefore, must be continuously maintained. In essence, "Foxe" has his finger on the "dead man's switch" of these articles. After several years of editing, he by now realizes that his choices are to either watch what he has so carefully put together be taken apart by amateurs or spend the next 20 years of his life maintaining Wikipedia articles. The only other alternative is to bring in another like-minded editor to take over some of the workload. The frustration of an academic among amateurs becomes evident.

Thus speaketh the history professor...

I've replaced older material in this section with new, narrative content that is more concise, more readable, well-referenced, and is better focused on Joseph Smith, Jr.
I expect editing to be adequately explained.
"John Foxe," "Joseph Smith, Jr." Wikipedia Talk Page (15 September 2008)

...and the writer...

I won't argue that what I've written is of higher quality than what you are trying to preserve—though it is...
"John Foxe," "Joseph Smith, Jr." Wikipedia Talk Page (21 September 2008)

Frustrated editors fall by the wayside...

The day will come when John Foxe... like the rest of us... will tire of this current fight and move on with his life. I'm taking the long term view of this particular article, and doing a wait and see on how this is eventually going to turn out.
--"Robert Horning" 20:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC) off-site

The only reason the article became "basically stable" is that I finally quit--I just gave up fighting with him. I consider him a bully. He is tenacious and very focused.
--"Rocketj4" 13:17, 19 September 2008 (UTC) off-site

Freedom of biased expression

The fact that this article has been stable for months suggests that other Mormons have found the evidence unassailable.
"John Foxe," responding to an LDS editor at "Three Witnesses" Wikipedia Talk Page (27 January 2009)

∗       ∗       ∗

Anonymity allows editors to freely express their bias in ways that would never be included in a “real world” academic article. We contrast Dr. Matzko's professionalism with the lack of such in John "Foxe."

Dr. Matzko notes in his article:

“Especially valuable were the comments of Richard Bushman, seminar co-director, and Mark Sidwell, the author’s colleague at BJU.”

In contrast, “Wikipedia academic” "John Foxe," notes on the "Joseph Smith, Jr." Talk page:

“...the statements of Joseph and Emma are not credible. No historian of any persuasion takes them seriously. That's because both Joseph and Emma lied.”

Dr. Bushman is one of the foremost “believing” historians to have documented the life of Joseph Smith, Jr. Surely Dr. Bushman considers the statements of Joseph Smith to be credible. John "Foxe" has actually met the man and respects him, claiming that he is a "super nice guy." Yet, Dr. Matzko acknowledges that Dr. Bushman is a historian worthy of reviewing his work, since he praises Dr. Bushman’s input and review of his article draft. The anonymous academic John "Foxe," in contrast, states that “no historian of any persuasion takes [Joseph’s statements] seriously,” thus implicitly condemning Dr. Bushman’s credentials as a historian. “Foxe” would not be able to get away with such a statement without the protection of anonymity. His “real world” credentials remain intact, while his Wikipedia credentials are essentially disposable.


A comparison: Wikipedia bias versus the tempering of peer review

In order to illustrate how bias can be inserted in a Wikipedia article in a way that would never be possible in a professional peer-reviewed article, we compare entries in the "First Vision" article crafted by John "Foxe" with similar statements from John Matzko's article "The Encounter of Young Joseph Smith with Presbyterianism," published in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, vol. 40, no 3 (Fall 2007). The comparison is useful for illustrating the difference between what constitutes an allegedly "balanced" Wikipedia article versus an actual scholarly publication.

The comparison is quite valid—Both authors are history professors employed by Bob Jones University and both do not believe in the foundational stories of Mormonism. Yet, Dr. John Matzko produces an interesting, informative, and readable article, even if one does not necessarily agree with all of his claims. John "Foxe," on the other hand, is required to interact and compromise with other editors of varying degrees of belief and skepticism, and thus produces a convoluted and tortured text in his attempts to spin the article in the direction he wishes it to go.

- Wiki academic
"John Foxe,"
Historian
Bob Jones University,
Wikipedia article "First Vision." 		Real world academic
John Matzko,
Chairperson, Division of Social Science, off-site
Bob Jones University.
"The Encounter of Young Joseph Smith with Presbyterianism," Dialogue40/3 (2007) 		Comments
Reference
  • Smith said that he made an oblique reference to the vision in 1820 to his mother, telling her the day it happened that he had "learned for [him]self that Presbyterianism is not true." (Roberts, 1902)
  • When Joseph reported his earliest vision to his mother, he did not tell her that all Christian sects were equally erroneous. He said that “Presbyterianism [was] not true.”
  • Citations: “Joseph Smith History, 1839,” in Early Mormon Documents, 1:143.
  • Note the Wikipedia article's claim that "Smith said that he made an oblique reference..." The sentence itself is oddly structured, since Joseph never said that he made an oblique reference. This is the Wikipedia editor's effort to insert as many qualifiers as possible in order to minimize the possibility that one might assume that Joseph was telling the truth. Oddly enough, a professor of historical writing ought to catch something such as this.
  • Dr. Matzko's article simply correctly states the facts and back them up with a citation: "Joseph reported his earliest vision to his mother."
Connection
  • In Smith's 1838 narrative, his family's decision to join the Presbyterian Church occurs prior to his First Vision. But Lucy Mack Smith said that she and some of her children sought comfort in the church after the death of her oldest son, Alvin, in November 1823, which if her memory was correct, would place the date of the first vision no earlier than 1824.
  • Citations; (Vogel (2004), p. 58); (Hill (1982) , p. 39)
  • Thus, not surprisingly, when Lucy reached Palmyra, she developed a connection with the Presbyterian church, even though she held aloof from membership.
  • Citation: Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling, 11-13. Solomon Mack, Lucy’s father, was a Universalist during her childhood but converted to orthodox Christianity in 1810. (Matzko, p. 70)
  • The Wikipedia author has carefully selected the facts that he wants to present. Lucy’s baptism prior to 1820 (recorded in her history) is not mentioned. (EMD 1:242) He states what Joseph said, and then adds the inevitable "but..." He performs a bit of original research by drawing a conclusion (not allowed in Wikipedia) that the First Vision therefore could not have happened prior to 1824.
  • Dr. Matzko, on the other hand, acknowledges that Lucy had some sort of connection with the Presbyterians after the Smith family moved to Palmyra. He does not mention her baptism (as it cannot be proven that it was performed by a Presbyterian minister). Matzko concludes that Lucy "held aloof from membership," although there are no extant membership records from the Western Presbyterian Church during this period—this statement is therefore an assumption based upon an absence of evidence.
Timing
  • William said the religious excitement in Palmyra had occurred in 1822-23 (rather than the actual date of 1824-25), that it was stimulated by the preaching of a Methodist, the Rev. George Lane, a "great revival preacher," and that his mother and some of his siblings had then joined the Presbyterian church.
  • Smith (1883), p. 6 (Foxe)
  • [S]ometime before 1828 Lucy and three of her children—Hyrum, Samuel, and Sophronia—joined the Presbyterian church where Stockton was the pastor.[15]
  • Citations: Lucy Mack Smith, “Preliminary Manuscript” (1845), LDS Church
  • Archives, Salt Lake City, in Early Mormon Documents, 1:306. For notice of the 1824-25 revival, see Wayne Sentinel, March 2, 1825. No membership records of the Western Presbyterian Church survive for this period, and the date of their membership remains controversial, but Lucy Smith strongly implied that she joined the Presbyterian Church after Alvin’s death. Stockton served as pastor of Western Presbyterian Church from February 1824 until October 1827, the mostly likely period of the Smiths’ church membership.
  • "Foxe" continues his original research by inserting the comment "rather than the actual date of 1824-1825."
  • Matzko correctly notes that Lucy and her children joined the Presbyterian church "sometime before 1828." He also somewhat correctly indicates that Lucy "strongly implied" that she joined a church, although Lucy does not indicate specifically that it was Presbyterian. This is inferred from the fact that her family was listed on the membership rolls up until they were disfellowshipped in 1830.
Methodist Property
  • Citation: Bushman, 69-70. The Methodists did not acquire property on the Vienna Road until July 1821, so it is likely that Smith's first dabble with Methodism occurred during the 1824-25 revival in Palmyra.
  • Citation: Since the Methodists did not acquire property on the Vienna Road until July 1821, the camp meetings were almost certainly held after that date. Wesley Walters, "A Reply to Dr. Bushman," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 4, no. 1 (Spring 1969): 99. (Matzko, p. 78 note 2).
  • "Foxe" cites Bushman, then adds a fact, followed by a speculation. Neither the fact nor the speculation are supported by the Bushman citation. No citation is even provided for the statement regarding the Methodist property.
  • In contrast, Matzko notes the same information and cites it to Walters' response to Bushman.
Exhorter
  • He may have even spoken during some Methodist meetings—a childhood acquaintance of Smith's, Orsamus Turner (1801-1855), described him as a "very passable exhorter," which Dan Vogel has interpreted to mean some involvement with the Methodists "during the 1824-25 revival in Palmyra. Nevertheless, Vogel admits that Smith "could not have been a licensed exhorter since membership was a prerequisite."EMD, 3: 50, n. 15; Turner (1851) , p. 429
  • Turner says that "after catching a spark of Methodism in the camp meeting, away down in the woods, on the Vienna road, he was a very passable exhorter in evening meetings." According to the Oxford English Dictionary, an "exhorter" is either "One who exhorts or urges on to action" or "a person appointed to give religious exhortation under the direction of a superior minister." Exhorters were common in early Methodism. (For instance, see Abel Stevens, History of the Methodist Episcopal Church in the United States of America (New York: Phillips & Hunt, 1884), 2: 235.)
  • Nevertheless, according to Craig N. Ray, the word "exhorter" refers to Smith's activities in a debating club, not in Methodist meetings. (No other reputable scholar has adopted this interpretation.)Brown (no date) The full text of the Turner quote can be found at Olivercowdery.com It is a single very lengthy sentence, but in summary, it says: "...the mother's intellect occasionally shone out in him feebly, especially when he used to help us to solve some portentous questions of moral or political ethics, in our juvenile debating club... and, subsequently, after catching a spark of Methodism in the camp-meeting, away down in the woods, on the Vienna road, he was a very passable exhorter in evening meetings."
  • At some point between 1821 and 1829, Smith served as “a very passable exhorter” at Methodist camp meetings “away down in the woods, on the Vienna Road.”[2]
  • [2] Orsamus Turner, History of the Pioneer Settlement of Phelps and Gorham's Purchase, and Morris' Reserve (Rochester, N.Y.: William Alling, 1851), 214, in Early Mormon Documents, 3:50.
  • Note how much convoluted text John "Foxe" uses to describe the citation that Dr. Matzko effectively uses in a single line, although Matzko does make an assumption that Joseph was an "exhorter" at the Methodist meetings, rather than noting the debate club. "Foxe" doesn't like the fact that the citation clearly mentions a debating club, and that Joseph was an "exhorter" in evening meetings after he caught "a spark of Methodism" at the camp meetings. Turner mentions the debating club, but "Foxe" has to break the quote into parts and insert a lengthy dictionary definition of the word "exhorter" in order to make sure the reader understands the citation the way he wants them to. "Foxe" is trying very hard to obscure the fact that it was the primary source Turner that mentioned the "debating club," and does not actually allow the source quote that mentions it to appear until toward the end of the citation. "Foxe" even inserts the editorial comment that "no other reputable scholar has adopted this interpretation," thus casting doubt on Ray's credentials.
  • In contrast, Dr. Matzko simply states his conclusion: That Joseph was an "exhorter" at Methodist camp meetings, and cites Turner as a source. There are no unprofessional comments casting doubts upon other scholars in this paper, which was required to pass a peer review.

Conclusion

Only in Wikipedia can you observe LDS believers, non-believers and critics attempting to work together to produce a coherent encyclopedia article. Sometimes "working together" is in reality an edit war between believers and critics, with the winner being the person who can outlast the others without blatantly violating Wikipedia editing guidelines.

Endnotes

  1. [note] The pseudonym "John Foxe" is not the editor's real name—it is taken from the author of "Foxe's Book of Martyrs."
  2. [note]  "...you have to understand that from my perspective, Joseph not only lied, he committed serial adultery." John "Foxe" (13 January 2009) off-site
  3. [note]  Comment posted on "Three Witnesses" Talk page by John "Foxe" (28 January 2009) off-site
  4. [note]  "Frankly, I don't care whether you're a reprobate, a pedestrian, or a Martian." Posted to the "Bob Jones University" Talk page by John "Foxe" (12 July 2006) off-site
  5. [note] Dr. Matzko's article thanks “participants in the 2005 NEH Seminar on ‘Joseph Smith and the Origins of Mormonism’ for criticism of an earlier draft. Especially valuable were the comments of Richard Bushman, seminar co-director, and Mark Sidwell, the author’s colleague at BJU."
Obtida de "https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/respostas/index.php?title=Utilizador:InProgress/Mormonism_and_Wikipedia/Academic_among_amateurs&oldid=55019"