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In this installment brother Ash relates the history of Dr. M. Wells Jakeman and Thomas Stuart Ferguson along with the work done by John L. Sorenson whose work was published in the 1984 Ensign.
The full text of this article can be found at Deseret News online.
Brother Ash is author of the book Shaken Faith Syndrome: Strengthening One’s Testimony in the Face of Criticism and Doubt, as well as the book, of Faith and Reason: 80 Evidences Supporting the Prophet Joseph Smith. Both books are available for purchase online through the FairMormon Bookstore. Tell your friends about the Mormon Fair-Cast. Share a link on your Facebook page and help increase the popularity of the Mormon Fair-Cast by subscribing to this podcast in iTunes, and by rating it and writing a review.
The views and opinions expressed in the podcast may not reflect those of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or that of FairMormon
I may not write comment often but I want you to know that I listen to all the Fair Mormon Blogs with great interest. I want to sincerely thank you for all your great work which is so needed. I do not question my testimony which is very powerful but what I learn from all of you helps me understand some of the things I don’t understand and it helps me to help members who are struggling.
I may not write comment often but I want you to know that I listen to all the Fair Mormon Blogs with great interest. I want to sincerely thank you for all your great work which is so needed. I do not question my testimony which is very powerful but what I learn from all of you helps me understand some of the things I don’t understand and it helps me to help members who are struggling.
In the Book of Mormon.. the narrow neck of land runs from the Land Southward.. to the land Northward and has a width of a day and halfs journey from the sea west.. to the sea east.
Why is does the narrow neck run in a east / west direction? And why is the sea east positioned north of the narrow neck… and the sea west positioned south of the narrow neck?
This goes against what the scriptures actually say. Are we ignoring the scriptures?
MrNirom,
This FairMormon Conference presentation by Brant Gardner addresses your question:
http://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2012-fair-conference/2012-from-the-east-to-the-west-the-problem-of-directions-in-the-book-of-mormon
Mike.. If this is true.. when did it change? Nephi did not use that system. When he left Jerusalem.. are we to assume that was the measuring system he was using then to describe his journey? So from the time he left Jerusalem.. he traveled ” for the space of four days, nearly a south-southeast direction, and we did pitch our tents again”
So my question would be.. then what direction did he really travel if not a south-southeast direction?
Then Nephi says: “And it came to pass that we did again take our journey in the wilderness; and we did travel nearly eastward from that time forth.” So eastward isn’t eastward.. what direction is it? And since it was the Liahona that was guiding them.. I guess it too had the MesoAmerican way of directions.. right?
MrNirom,
Keep in mind that Nephi’s writings are all in first person because Mormon put the small plates of Nephi directly into the plates of Mormon, so Nephi would have used Israelite cardinal directions.
After the Nephite people lived in the new world for 1,000 years, their cardinal directikns could have changed to adapt to their geography. So the directions we see from Mormon’s abridgement of the large plates would have been those of a fourth century AD Nephite.
Honestly Mike.. I look at it and all I see is someone trying to make a their geography work. MesoAmerica is filled with Nephite buildings and architecture… but why does that have to make it the Book of Mormon lands?
MrNirom,
It’s not just buildings that make Mesoamerica the likely location for the Book of Mormon: The distances described in the text, the cultures, the requirement of a written language, bodies of water surrounding the land, the narrow neck of land and narrow pass, the volcanism, the climate, the historical timeline for rise and fall of civilizations, and more all point there. Other geographies fail in most or all of these points.
John Sorenson’s work, from his 1984 Ensign articles (part 1 and 2) and 1985 book An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon to his 2013 book Mormon’s Codex explain this in great detail.
Mike,
Let me give you my scenario.. of what I think really happened.
Lehi and family did everything they said they did as it was captured in the Book of Mormon arriving in Bountiful… building a ship.. and then setting sail for the promised land.
Now upon the waters.. they traveled south to south east.. until they reached the Prevailing Westerlies wind and the strong West Wind Drift current taking them south of Australia and continuing east until they reached the Humbolt current which took them northward.. just west of South America.. and as they approached the 30 degree mark.. the current dies down to nearly a stand still. And at 30 degrees.. the now Chilean coast is exactly the same climate as Jerusalem.. where all the seeds they had were planted and grew fantastically!
See Picture: https://mlsvc01-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/c366c082301/b03fa82f-1977-4d5e-9b58-ba80f20b1252.jpg
Now.. at this time in the history of the earth.. the majority of South America was underwater.
See Picture:
https://mlsvc01-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/c366c082301/0a732364-20f4-4714-ac6d-b3f8a8139fd2.jpg
This is where in the scriptures that Jacob speaks about.. and it then makes sense when he says:
“And now, my beloved brethren,
seeing that our merciful God
has given us so great knowledge concerning these things,
let us remember him,
and lay aside our sins,
and not hang down our heads,
for we are not cast off;
nevertheless,
we have been driven out of the land of our inheritance;
but we have been led to a better land,
for the Lord has made the sea our path,
and we are upon an isle of the sea.”
Let me repeat that last line:
AND WE ARE UPON AN ISLE OF THE SEA.
He continues:
“But great are the promises of the Lord
unto them who are upon the isles of the sea;
wherefore as it says isles,
there must needs be more than this,
and they are inhabited also by our brethren.” 2 Nephi 10:20-21
So knowing that they are upon an isle.. and are surrounded by water… one can now understand when reading about the final battle that Mormon tells us about.. that it starts to make sense. Ask yourself. Why did Mormon quit running north with all of his people and make a final stand at the hill cumorah? Why did the people have to stand there and watch the great Lamanite army fall upon them? Why was it that Mormon never mentioned anyone continuing to go North.. but did make mention that some tried to leave but went south? Why South?
Simple..
There was no North to go to.
The people that lived upon the land in Peru.. before the Inca’s… were the Nephites. It was the Nephites that built those buildings. I can show you how the buildings and walls that are built in Peru are identical to that which is found in Israel. There are identifiable markers that show that.
Now looking at Peru as the Book of Mormon lands.. you can easily see how when the Hagoth built his ships and people went North.. they went North by boat only.. and what is North of Peru?
MesoAmerica.
And why does much of MesoAmerica look like the buildings that are in Peru?
Simple.
The Nephites that left the promised land.. and built them.
500 years of wars between the Lamanites and Nephites. People were tired of it and they got on ships and went North. No Lamanites were there to hate them.
The Book of Mormon speak much about highways and walls around cities.. and a wall that extended from the west sea and went inland. Peru has all of that.
When you speak about the special ore that Nephi mentions when he lands in the promised land.. both of gold and silver and copper.. Chile has that specific ore that contains all three.
So Chile is the landing spot.. but Peru is where Zarahemla is.
If you are interested in details.. I will be happy to share. If you don’t want to jeopardise your paradigm.. then I need not share.
But let me share one last thing with you.
See Picture:
https://mlsvc01-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/c366c082301/1615e596-7dcc-4ac5-b0b7-1269c5011581.jpg
The only thing that happens by researching this.. is finding a better truth. Everything about MesoAmerica and the Nephites being there is true..
What is NOT true.. is that Lehi Saw It and set foot upon it. MesoAmerica is NOT the land where the Nephites and Lamanites did battle. It is NOT the land where the stories told in the Book of Mormon took place. It is the place where Hagoth’s ships landed.
Mike,
You said: After the Nephite people lived in the new world for 1,000 years, their cardinal directikns could have changed to adapt to their geography. So the directions we see from Mormon’s abridgement of the large plates would have been those of a fourth century AD Nephite.
I say: I can not understand why they would need to change their cardinal directions. If the sea is on the north.. call it the north sea.. if it is on the south.. call it the south sea. Why would they care? The only people who care are those that are trying to fit a piece of land in a place that does not belong. Just the complication of creating the scenario to explain why north is not north.. etc is mind boggling. The only reason one would do that is make it fit into what they believe rather than what it is. It is sad to think that prophets of God who have all lived on the same land for 1000 years.. would all of a sudden change their cardinal directions so that we can say.. oh.. the sea west is really the sea south… and the sea east.. is really the sea north. Can you see how entirely whacky it seems to be?
MrNirom,
Can I assume that you are either Del DowDell or a follower of his writings?
Mike,
Is that the answer to my questions? A question to me? I am telling you what I think and explaining why. Can you address just that?
Mike,
To assume I was someone other than me says that you would believe that people would masquerade themselves to avoid someone from knowing that it is really them. So Del DowDell is the kind of man that hides his true identity?
Our primary concern is that comments made on our blog be genuine and not anomalous or a misrepresentation.
MrNirom,
I’m just trying to understand where you’re coming from. It’s easier to do that if I know who you are and what source materials you’re reading (or have written).
It’s one of the real challenges of anonymous blog comments.
The idea that Lehi’s “isle of the sea” was Chile and that the Amazon basin was completely underwater during Book of Mormon times is not new, however. It goes back at least 26 years to Arthur Kocherhans’ book Lehi’s Isle of Promise: A Scriptural Account with Word Definitions and a Commentary. I remember seeing this book within a year or two of its printing in 1989. There’s a brief review of it here:
http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1426&index=8
Anonymous and anomalous. I would say that since the standard norm for this blog would be to believe in and accept the MesoAmerican theory, anything contrary to that would be anomalous. As far as anonymous goes.. just because someone writes a name like Mike Parker or Ned Scarisbrick.. does not mean that is who that person really is. I have used the name MrNirom from the first time I started dealing with anti and ex Mormons on the internet. I mean.. I have used this name for so long one could actually Google it and get results. Let me ask.. Did you google my name?
Honestly Gentlemen.. I was hoping for a response to what I actually thought. I was hoping that someone would tell me why my line of thinking is wrong. For example.. if the proof was there that South America was indeed once underwater.. would that give credence to everything else I wrote about? Would that make the similarities between Peru and MesoAmerica now believable? Would that now make the climate similarities between Jerusalem and Chile a reality? I can tell you this much. If I were to ask you to fill in the blanks on the following scripture.. could you put a value in for xxxxx and yyyyyy? Here.. let us try:
“And they also had horses, and asses,
and there were elephants and xxxxx and yyyyyy;
all of which were useful unto man,
and more especially the elephants and xxxxx and yyyyyy.”
Please share with me what those values could be.
I can.
What I am trying to say.. is that in every theory that is out there.. based on what has been presented.. no one has thought about why Mormon just stood and waited for the Lamanite Army to pounce on them and annihilate women and children.. when in every theory out there.. there is an escape route. He did not have to stop running…. camp out and wait. But no one will even address the issue. They dismiss it. At least I have a plausible reason as to the why.
I am not familiar with Arthur Kocherhans’ book. But I did notice that the review of it… was done in 1991. In 24 years has anything been added to his book?
MrNirom,
There’s no need to be pugilistic. I don’t feel any compulsion or desire to debate you or respond to every point you make or rebut your theory. I’m interested in discussing points here and there, but that’s about it. I have lots of other activities that require my time and energy.
Please rest assured that my name and photograph are real. I’m a firm believer in putting my actual identity online when I talk to other people. It keeps me accountable for the things I write.
I’m curious if there is any reputable evidence that the Amazon basin was submerged 2,000 years ago. I haven’t seen anything to indicate that this theory is taken seriously by experts in geology and so forth. The only people making the claim appear to be a handful of Latter-day Saints who are advancing a South American geography for the Book of Mormon.
In fact, falling river levels in the Amazon have recently uncovered etchings that are about 7,000 years old; this seems to indicate that there were people living in the Amazon during the time when it was supposedly underwater.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/nov/10/amazon-brazil-stone-age-etchings
Mike,
If I disagree with you.. I am pugilistic? Well.. I see that this “discussion” is going nowhere.
It was then brought up about a book that was written some 26 years ago.. and a “review” that was done on that book. You presented the “review” as the end of discussion. This “review” being done by James H. Fleugel. I recently read a review of the “review”. The reviewer was quite insightful to notice one very important thing: Kocherhans book was written about a location that FARMS is totally opposed to, that is, South America.
He notes as an example, one of Fleugel’s comments of Kocherhans’ book is: “it ultimately leaves its own arguments incomplete, since it takes insufficient account of the best scholarship in the field.”
And what is that “best scholarship in the field”?
Look at Fleugel’s comment about Kocherhan, “Rejecting John L. Sorenson’s views on Nephite and Jaredite cohabitation with other peoples”. So we now know who Fleugel believes is the “best scholarship in the field.
Problem I see is that this idea of “cohabitation with other peoples” is totally a Mesoamericanist belief, since that model promotes interaction with other people despite the fact that there is not one mention, suggestion or inference in the entire Book of Mormon record of 531 pages to indicate there was any other people in the Land of Promise. But.. that is who we are suppose to listen to?
So by throwing out the web address in response to my belief that South America was an island.. you also have to accept Fleugel’s opinion on the whole matter. And to accept his opinion.. you also have accept John Sorenson’s opinion. And quite honestly.. I don’t. I think John Sorenson is wrong.
But then I guess it is foolish of me to ask those who follow the beliefs of Sorenson to answer my questions in some unbiased way. So I withdraw my questions and throw in the towel on this perceived boxing match.
Thank you for your time. You need spend no more time on me. Please pursue those many activities that require your time and energy.
P.S. As far as the article in the Guardian is concerned.. you will notice that the picture I sent to you still had parts of South America on the east side that were still above water. Here is a copy of that picture again:
https://mlsvc01-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/c366c082301/0a732364-20f4-4714-ac6d-b3f8a8139fd2.jpg