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In the summer of 2013, the United Kingdom is playing host to the first official pageant of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints outside of North America. In the USA, pageants are a big part of Latter-day Saint culture in the summer months, with annual events in Manti UT, Palmyra NY, and Nauvoo IL. These events commemorate important events from Church history and the scriptures, and attract audiences of thousands each year.
The British Pageant follows the same format, but with a focus on the history of the Church in the British Isles, and is written and performed by members from around the United Kingdom. Throughout their history, the British people have demonstrated their desire to do God’s will, requiring personal sacrifice and tremendous courage. This pageant will tell the story of Latter-day Saints who sacrificed much to build their faith and strengthen their communities. Through their abiding faith and deep love for one another, and for the Saviour, the Saints discovered their lives were full of the joy of the gospel. This they taught their children, who carried on a legacy of devotion to the principles of the restored Gospel. Today, families and youth in the British Isles know this joy and continue to take it to all the world. The pageant explores events surrounding the beginnings of the Church, and the impact of these events in the British Isles through the years.
This is a compilation response to several articles posted at the anti-Mormon web site, “Mormonism Investigated UK”, regarding the basic teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Bobby and Vickie Gilpin represent themselves as faithful Christians engaged in publishing a blog featuring what they claim to be the true teachings of the Mormons, as opposed to what is being taught by the LDS Church. They have been present at the pageant on a daily basis to promote their views, in much the same way as those who show up at temple dedications or at the semi-annual general conferences of the LDS Church held in Salt Lake City UT.
The doctrine of salvation is a common thread in the articles at this web site. Brother Scarisbrick explains this core Christian doctrine in a way that clarifies what may appear on the surface to be a marked difference between non-LDS Christian teachings and the more nuanced teachings of salvation or degrees of glory within general salvation. What we receive within the judgment of rewards (general salvation) is dependent, at least in part, on our works in this life. This principle, along with the “Teachings of Presidents of the Church – Lorenzo Snow”, which also received attention at this web site, is discussed in this podcast.
The views expressed by the host of this podcast are his own and does not necessarily reflect those of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter – Day Saints or that of the FairMormon group.
The introductory piano music is provided by Paul Cardall and is available for purchase here .
I appreciate that the purpose of your podcast is not to engage usefully with what Bobby Gilpin hot others have written. I say that because you first try to discredit him by lumping him in with those “protesters” at North American pageants or other events. I have been shouted at at the Palmyra pageant and it wasn’t pleasant. Bobby Gilpin does not operate like that, but behaves in a most respectful way.
I think you could more fully develop what you have addressed a little more without making your podcast too much longer which I am sure must limit what you can get into.
I only want to comment on two things. As Mormons we do accept that Jesus was an intelligence just like the rest of us here on earth and was organised into a spirit son of God and one of his polygamous wives. Jesus like the rest of us, made choices. Some were more valiant than others and some rebelled. Never-the-less Jesus chose to play the role of Messiah and organised the world for us on behalf of our common father. This is what I learn at church. While Bobby doesn’t quite speak with Mormom language, his point on the origin of Jesus is not in conflict with what we talk about in Church or has been historically presented and is not out of step with the Quote from President Smith which you did not really address.
Second, I not anyone I would think would disagree with you that the temple does not make us worthy. Certainly Jesus, who ascended to the Father advocates for us, perfects our prayers and repentance and our sins are forgiven through his work. I think you expressed that and of course this would be a common way of looking at Jesus for Mormons and Bobby too. However, the Atonememt only makes it a posssibility to have communion with God in the life to come if I have received the signs and tokens in the Mormon temple. You suggest temple worship is part of our response to the atonement and doesn’t form a checklist of things that must be done as if we can come to God in the future through the checklist. However in practice, the Atonememt is not sufficient but must be complimented by a required response, a specified response of compliance with particular ordinances and achievements. If that was not so, Mormons would not spend time in Temes performing work for and in behalf of the dead.
There is a reason why Bobby and others out there say what they do. I think it would be more productive to consider why he and others say what they do, address those causes and then present a position. In my opinion this would be more genuine and helpful then attempting to discredit someone who most people would enjoy as a neighbour.
First of all I think one can be a protester without being violent or having a “in your face style.” I don’t know the man personaly and I don’t believe my podcast was in any way an attempt to discredit his character. My focus was on the gospel issues he and his group raise. If you believe I have mis-represented his beliefs I would be pleased to clarify any issue.
Next I would disagree with you on the Savior being the same as you and I in the pre-existance. We are brothers because we were created by the Father. However, He was God the Son before the world was and you and I and everybody else were not. To me this is considerable difference.
The desire to obey God and bring our lives in line with His will may require us to take upon ourselves gospel covenants contained within ordinances such as baptism and those of the temple. However this is not universal. Those who die before the age of accountanbility and those with certain disabilities do not need these ordianances being innocent before God.
I do believe I have represented their views and I have tried to explain where they may be coming from in relationship to the way they seem to understand the teachings of the LDS Church. Much of our culture, tradition and speculation have been substituted for true doctrine and it is my desire to clear up any such mis-understandings that may have resulted in some leaving the Church because of these issues.
I have no desire to discredit anyone. Therefore I do not engage in debates on gospel topics because it is my view that debates do not resolve conflict, establish truth or generate faith. I provide my understanding of issues and allow others to do the same without personal bias. We can then agree to disagree without becoming disagreeable children of our Father in heaven.
I am glad that you have acknowledged no personal acquaintance with Bobby. If you did, you would not have suggested that Bobby should be lumped in with those present at Conference or Temple dedications. He doesn’t drag a BOM around on the ground or shout at people. I think some of your choice of words and style of presentation do serve to discredit.
To correct your write up leading to the link to your audio file, Bobby was not at the pageant every day and his wife did not attend at all. I don’t think that the President of the pageant would agree that those Christians in attendance were there to protest in any way. He provided shelter to them when it rained, and was in contact with Bobby prior to the pageant to see about arranging to address any health and safety issues.
When I was on my mission, I street contacted in the High Street. I went there to engage in conversation with those who’s attention I could capture. Bobby, and those at the British pageant had to go there to talk to members of the LDS because we can’t be identified easily on the street. What was done there is no different to the missionaries here setting up their table on the sidewalk outside the main entrance to the mall or at the University where I work inside the main entrance to the food court and library accompanied by young adult members. This is not protesting.
I don’t think you are in disagreement with me on the nature of Jesus and our own shared nature. You acknowledge that in Mormon theology, Jesus and you and I share a common Father (but perhaps not a common mother). Since we existed as intelligences prior to becoming a spirit child of God and one of his wives, I don’t use the word created as you do. Organised I think is the correct word used in Mormon doctrine to describe the existence of the present world and those who populate it. This is the point that I was making. Further, you give Jesus a status in the pre earth life is completely consistent with what I was communicating. This is in contrast to the traditional Christian view of the nature of Jesus.
It is important that Mormons do not use Trinitarian phrases when describing Jesus. The phrase you used, “God the Son” is a Trinitarian phrase describing a coeternal and perocheretic relationship. This is not the sort of relationship or existence that is described in the Mormon concept of God. But it does describe the Christian view of the relationship between Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit. You cannot say that Jesus is created and then use the phrase God the Son as these are inconsistent references. Please refer to C Baxter Kruger or T. F. Torrance among many others.
It is not that God created both Jesus and us that makes us brothers in the Christian doctrine. To describe this would make this post even longer, but please refer to Romans 8. N. T. Wright would be a good place to go to appreciate the Christian idea of brotherhood with Christ as described by Paul.
To close, I appreciate your words that you do not seek to discredit anyone but do not fully agree. I quite agree that debating is not the thing to do but an open discussion of the roots of differences with the aim of understanding is very worthwhile. I hope that you have appreciated that I have identified some points of difference here and that these points of difference are the root cause of the Mormonism Investigated site in the UK and the recent presence of Bobby Gilpin at the British Pageant and others. I think their participation at the pageant will be considered positive from both sides.
Hi there Ned thanks for giving my site some attention. I think you could have been much harsher toward us in your comments if you wanted too.
As Michael said we were by no means “protesting” but rather witnessing to a people group we love very much. However I think titles such as “Anti-Mormon” and “protesters” are fairly unavoidable with the extent these terms are used by many Mormons, its no big deal.
We are putting some responses up on my site to some of your comments (www.mormonisminvestigated.co.uk) one just went on today, you are welcome to comment but no problem either way.
Thanks for noticing us, talk soon.
Hi Ned,
You mention in your podcast about a previous show on Calvinism and Arminianism – do you have a link for that please?
The Calvinism / Armenianism podcast is available at http://www.fairblog.org/2013/04/05/4th_watch_5the-theolgy-of-john-jacobus/
This is a overview and not a in-depth study.
All podcasts are available at http://www.fairblog.org