Snow is only mentioned once in The Book of Mormon, and that is only when the Lehites were still in the Old World 1. This is very indicative of where The Book of Mormon took place. If they lived in an area that was cold, such as the area around the Great Lakes, surely the bitter winters known in that area would have been mentioned. Other than the one reference , there is no mention of snow at all where the primary events of The Book of Mormon took place. John Lund states “The pilgrims of Plymouth, Massachusetts in 1620 often referenced the cold and the snow. If the major events of The Book of Mormon all happened around the New York Hill Cumorah, one would expect to hear about snow.” 2
However, the cold is not what we hear about. Instead, we hear phrases like “heat of the day” 3, without any indication of a cold climate one would expect to see if The Book of Mormon took place in the North Eastern United States. The Lehites came from the Middle East, travelled years through the vast Saudi Arabian deserts, and then we only hear about the heat of the new land. If it were a new, colder climate, it would most certainly be mentioned.
There are several events in The Book of Mormon that just could not have happened in the Great Lakes region. In Alma14, Alma and Amulek were stripped naked and suffered “many days” 4. It has been stated that Amulek set the date as the ‘fourth day of the seventh month’ 5. The 7th month and the 4th day on a lunar calendar of twenty-nine or thirty days per month would be around September 27th. The day they were delivered from prison was ‘on the twelfth day of the tenth month’ 6. This would have been approximately ninety-six days later. This date corresponds to around the first week of January. The minimum amount of time they would have spent in that condition would have been five days 7. The average temperature in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, the area where some place Zarahemla which is by the Genesee and Niagra rivers, two rivers some interpret to be the river Sidon, has an average temperature of 31 degrees F during the day, with a nighttime average of 19 degrees F. This is hardly an area that would sustain life for someone cast into a cold prison without any clothing or blankets for “many days”. However, the average temperature in the Mesoamerican lowlands is in the mid-sixties. This temperature would make it much more plausible for someone to survive in extreme conditions. 8
Also, the clothing mentioned in The Book of Mormon is not consistent with the climate of North America. To the contrary, we read about them wearing “loincloths”, “leathern girdles”, etc… This kind of clothing would not be conducive to the cold climate of the Great Lakes region. The Lamanites would not have survived, or even thought about wearing a loincloth in battle, in an area that is known for it’s freezing winters, and copious amounts of snow. Enos describes the Lamanites as “wandering about the wilderness with a short girdle about their loins.” 9 Zeniff portrayed the Lamanites as having “their heads shaved and they were naked; and they were girded with a leathern girdle about their loins.”10 Alma said the Amlicites “had not shorn their heads like unto the Lamanites. Now the heads of the Lamanites were shorn; and they were naked, save it were skin which was girded about their loins.” 11. Zarahemnahs army is described as being “naked, save it were a skin which was girded about their loins, yea all were naked save it were the Zoramites and the Amalekites.” 12
Because of this “nakedness”, the Lamanites were exposed and had a higher death rate than the Nephites 13. Moroni said this of speaking about the Nephites:
“Behold, their naked skins and their bare heads were exposed to the sharp swords of the Nephites.” 14
Giddianhi, the leader of the Gadianton robbers, and his army wore “…lamb-skin about their loins, and they were dyed in blood, and their heads were shorn…” 15
These wars were not seasonal, but sometimes lasted for years as one continuous war 16. In one particular war, the Lamanites came to war in the sixth month 17, in the commencement of the year 18, and at the end of the year 19. In the “second month”, the fathers of the stripling warriors brought them provisions 20 before a commencement of a battle in the “seventh month” 21.
The only mention of heavier clothing is as a form of armor in battle. Alma calls this “thick clothing” 22, and “very thick garments” 23. However, this is not common clothing worn by the Nephites and Lamanites, and is only mentioned in context of warfare as a protection. This may seem out of place in a warm climate, but “thick clothing” was used as a type of armor among the Mayan 24, and matches The Book of Mormons definition.
1. 1 Nephi 11:8 , “It should be noted too that many Old Testament scriptures which pre-date the Lehi colony’s departure also use the term “snow,” (the Hebrew word sheleg appears 20 times in our Old Testament” This means it is not surprising that Lehi and Nephi (who knew Israelite scripture well) would use the term.” http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_anachronisms/Snow accessed May 20, 2009)
2. John L. Lund, Mesoamerica and The Book of Mormon: Is This the Place?, (The Communication Company 2007) pg 205
3. Alma 51:33
4. Alma 14:21,23
5. Alma 10:6
6. Alma 14:23
7. Alma 14:18, 20, 23-28
8. John L. Lund, Mesoamerica and The Book of Mormon: Is This the Place?, (The Communication Company 2007), pg 207
9. Enos 1:20
10. Mosiah 10:8
11. Alma 3:4-5
12. Alma 43:20
13. Alma 43:37
14. Alma 44:18
15. 3 Nephi 4:7
16. Alma 51-62
17. 3 Nephi 4:7, September according to the Hebrew calendar
18. 3 Nephi 2:17 April according to the Hebrew calendar
19. 3 Nephi 4:1; 3 Nephi 2:17; Alma 56:20; March, according to the Hebrew calendar
20. Alma 56:27
21. Alma 56:42
22. Alma 43:19
23. Alma 49:6
24. William J. Hamblin, “Armor in the Book of Mormon”, p. 413; in Warfare in the Book of Mormon, edited by Stephen D. Ricks & William J. Hamblin, (Provo, Utah: Deseret Book Co. and FARMS, 1990); This article can be read online at: http://www.farmsresearch.com/publications/books/?bookid=66&chapid=738 accessed 5/25/09
This was a good post that is similar to one I did during earlier:
http://mormonwar.blogspot.com/2009/12/if-its-so-hot-why-am-i-shoveling-all.html
Most Great Lake proponents end up messing with the calender system in order to make it a non issue. I think you did a good job of arguing why that would be insufficient based on their cultural history.
Nicely done.
Just a minor critique. You might want to change the Hebrew for snow into sheleg. Shegel is a biblical term for sexual intercourse.
Wow, thanks for catching that Allen. While it is now more accurate, it isn’t quite as entertaining 🙂
Morgan,
It is good to see other articles on the subject. You may be interested in Randall Spackmans work on The Book of Mormon calendar. He has done some amazing work in that area.
He has a website with a list of his articles here: http://www.bookofmormonchronology.net/calendars.html
I would recommend his article “The Jewish/Nephite Lunar Calendar,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 7/1 (1998) on how the Nephite calendar differs from the calendar in the old world.
John Lunds book, which I quote in this article and pulled a lot of information from, is another great source.
Your arguing for evidence lack thereof? Where are we told that Nephi saw snow in Israel? We’re not. In fact we are told that Nephite used words that would make sense to his future readers – where the Book of Mormon would come forth.
Where did the Book of Mormon come forth? Western New York. Could her readers in Western New York understand the use of the word snow? Yes.
Nevertheless I will quote an early Jesuit encounter of the Cat/Erie Nation of Western New York, 1655:
Are you really trying to argue that the Great Lakes area doesn’t get any snow, and is actually a temperate climate? I would love to see you try to convince that to someone who actually lives there. They may think you are a little crazy.
Just the facts.
Btw, weather patterns can and do change, ask around.
And you believe it is a fact that the Great Lakes area doesn’t get snow? I am curious why you think they have found numerous snow shoes in archaeological sites in that area? Find that the Indians used to play games like “snow snakes” where they would have a more or less sledding contest of hickory snakes onto packed snow? Why are they finding winter clothes in sites in that area that probably do a better job at keeping someone warm than what we have today? Were they just getting ready for the next ice age? It is ludicrous to say that they didn’t have snow back then.
According to weather.com “Cleveland’s coldest month is January when the average temperature overnight is 18.8°F. In July, the warmest month, the average day time temperature rises to 81.4°F.”
I don’t think you are doing any good for your theory by making outlandish claims like this one. There was plenty of snow back then, just like there is now. Here is a weather report for Ohio and surrounding areas: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKicCRgaNFI
Second Fact:
From the St. Lawrence area in 1542:
Now, show them to be “naked” during winter times, as I have shown in the above post. I don’t dispute that other areas were warm, but again, I am not sure you read my post, and if you did read it, then you picked and chose what you wanted to get out of it. Because anyone can show that most every part part of North America gets warm enough to shed clothing and even get sunburned, but there are only very few spots that match the heat in the dead of winter as The Book of Mormon does.
Fact #3
Are there topics locating the geography you are ignoring?
Fact #3
Aren’t there topics for locating the true geography that you are avoiding?
First, the quote *in context* says:
“The women ornament themselves more than the men. And although the winters are very severe, they go naked until their thirteenth year; the lower parts of the girls bodies only are covered.”
So, using that logic, you are saying the armies of the ferocious Lamanites did not consist of ment, but consisted of little girls younger than 13. I don’t think I’d be to intimidated by that army.
Again, not very convincing. I believe you are doing more harm than good for you theory, with the kind of arguments you are making.
While I am beginning to realize what a waste of my time it is to try to show that it actually snows in an area that gets several feet a year, and that people actually dress in warm clothes, not loin skin clothes, in the dead of winter in sub-zero temperatures. I have found numerous photographs and paintings of what the NE Indians used to wear in times of winter. I like this one the best because it is a whole tribe of people, standing in snow, dressed in very warm, thick clothes.
This is found in the Library of Congress:
http://summertownstock.com/panoramicsforweb/iroquoisgroup1914.htm
The young and the old are more vulnerable, which shows how adapted even they were.
You’re no better than an anti who tries to use logic as a defense, whereas I use the Word of God, facts, and common sense.
You’re ignoring the first post, skirting and sliding, to avoid the indefensible hole Mesotheorists like yourself think discounts Western New York. What’s next, volcanoes?
1. Will you admit that weather patterns can change?
2. Will you accept the report by Parker that the area of Cat/Erie nation, i.e. Western New York in 1655 did not have snow or ice in the winter?
3. Will you admit your blog post is baseless because of it?
4. Will you acknowledge that Book of Mormon prophets wrote toward the understanding of the future inhabitants of ancient Book of Mormon lands?
5. Will you acknowledge that use of the word “snow” would make more sense to those in “modern day” Western New York than Quatemala?
6. Will you acknowledge that you purposely left out the Book of Mormon verses that DO refer to seasons and seasonal illnesses that were curable by herbs?
7. Will you acknowledge that to place weather requirements before land promises is weak and desperate?
Against my better judgement, I will respond one last time.
You say “The young and the old are more vulnerable, which shows how adapted even they were.”
Are you arguing that they adapted to the cold and were practically naked in the snow, or that weather patterns changed so drastically, that it didn’t snow in New York 2,000 years ago? That is a rhetorical question. I really don’t want you to respond. I just wanted to point out your shotgun approach to the subject.
I will briefly respond in chronological order to the questions you posed.
1. Are you arguing that the weather patterns changed so as to show that it didn’t snow? Is that why they are finding snow shoes in archaeological digs?
2. Does one unusually mild winter, if that passage is correct, mean that every other winter in the history of the area is the same? Absolutely not. If true, it is only an anomaly of the area as any sane person would agree.
3. Nope. See above.
4. The Book of Mormons spiritual message was for the future. However, they did not change the geography of their own land to match a future geography.
5. When it was hot, BOM Prophets said it was hot. They wore next to nothing year round because of that heat. Likewise, if it were cold, they would mention that cold and wear more, warmer clothing.
6. It has Mesoamerican application as well, so no need to hide it. BTW, this isn’t an exhaustive article on the subject, but an introduction. There is a lot more detail I could have added (in favor of a Mesoamerican setting), but did not. See this article: http://www.fairlds.org/DNA_Evidence_for_Book_of_Mormon_Geography/DEBMG06F.html
Also, Mayans were known for medicine and healing. A simple google search could have answered that question for you. Listed below are a description of broad sicknesses and diseases by Roys, for which medicine men used their plant remedies. These categories also contain subcategories to specialize the mixtures used even further.
HERBAL REMEDIES FOR: Aches and Pains; Asthma; Colds; Disease of the Lungs and Breathing Passages; Birth and Obstetrics; Diseases of Women; Bites and Stings of Animals and Insects; Bleeding; Bowel Complaints, Abdominal Pain and Vomiting; Burns; Charms and Magic; Chills and Fever; Convulsions, Nervous Complaints – Irritability, Depression, Loss of Sleep, Nightmares, Vertigo, Insomnia; Dislocations and Complaints of the Bones; Earaches; Eye Complaints; Fainting and Unconsciousness; Falling; Hair and Disease of the Scalp; Headache; Hiccoughs; Inflammation; Insanity; Jaundice; Mouth and Tongue Problems; Nosebleed and Excessive Sneezing; Poisoning; Skin Diseases, Ulcers, Abscesses, Cancer and Tumors; Sunstroke; Sweating; Teeth and Gums; Urine (bladder problems); Wounds, Cuts, Bruises, and Ruptures.Roys, Ralph L. (1931) The Ethno-Botany of the Maya. Tulane University
7. I am sorry that you this information does not line up with your theory, and feel that you must do whatever you can to dispute the facts. But that’s just it, they are facts and there is no way around them. Perhaps you should re-evaluate your theory if something does not fit. I have done this several times myself, and believe in a theory that matches the facts that I have come across. And if I come across something in the future that doesn’t fit my geography, I won’t stubbornly disregard the facts because they don’t line up with what I think is true, but will re-evaluate my beliefs in BOM geography.
Good luck to you.
BTW, I won’t be responding to you anymore. I have many other things that I should be doing.
Tyler, you wrote:
The clothing mentioned may not be consistent with the northern portions of North America, but it is certainly consistent with the southern portions. As none of the events describing this clothing took place in the Land Northward, or the Land of Desolation, your reasoning does not preclude these lands from being in the area of the Great Lakes. The warm weather events all occurred in lands further south, perhaps the lands along the Gulf of Mexico.
There are very few events described in the lands Northward and Desolation until the books of Mormon, Ether and Moroni, and there are no clues in any of these writings about weather, hot or cold. The absence of the word “snow” in these writings is not evidence for the absence of snow in these lands.
Theodore
Theodore, you are absolutely correct. I should have made it more clear that I was speaking about the weather where the main events of The Book of Mormon took place, and does not mean that the lands northward did not reach the Great Lakes region.
What is the source of the “snow shoes in archaeological digs”?
Both of you should state whether you accept the official LDS Church History that said the final Nephite battle occurred in Palmyra?
Arlin,
In case you missed it, I was arguing that the land Northward/Desolation could reach to the Great Lakes area and Tyler did not disagree, based on the weather argument.
Was a brilliant attack, however, the size of BoM lands is as important as the weather and where the Nephite battle occurred, imo.
I find nothing in the Book of Mormon that would confine the combined lands into a small area of either Mesoamerica or Northeastern US. On the contrary, there are many statements in the Book of Mormon that require a vast land area.
May I make some observations?
1. I was born in northern Indiana, and grew up in the Chicago area. Weather patterns there are not terribly different from those of upstate New York or Upper Canada. While wearing loincloths are probably suitable for the summer months in both places, it is certainly NOT suitable year-round, and probably would be unsuitable during the last and first months of any year–roughly March and April (Jesus was crucified on the fourth day of the first month; see III Nephi 8:5.).
2. While weather patterns do change and have changed, they haven’t change overmuch. For example, even though temperatures now are apparently the warmest since the “Medieval Warm Period,” since the end of the “Little Ice Age” slightly more than a century ago, they have only increased roughly one degree Celsius (two degrees Fahrenheit).
3. Moreover, the Medieval Warm Period began around AD 800–several centuries after the Nephites’ extinction. Since we aren’t dealing with either global warming or an “Ice Age” during the times of the Nephites, I think it safe to assume that temperatures were somewhere between these two extremes; colder than the Medieval Warm Period (or nowadays), yet warmer than the Little Ice Age.
4. Even under present global warming, substantial snowfall in April is not unknown as far south as the Carolinas (in 2009) and New Mexico (in 2010). I have some lovely photos of my wife slinging snowballs in my direction taken at the times and places I mentioned. 😉
5. While I can accept little children wearing no clothes at home near the fire (or in summer weather), what is appropriate under those conditions would not do at all in the face of an icy, windy, and snowy Great Lakes winter! 😉
6. I know there are anomalous Aprils and Septembers–even anomalous years. I must remind you, though, that anomalies do not establish a normal pattern.
7. While I recognise that the Book of Mormon not telling us that those warm-enough-to-wear-loincloths periods are anomalous do not prove that they are the norm, coupled with this, the fact that the Book of Mormon appears quick to identify other anomalies make it more likely than not that loincloth weather is the norm.
To sum up, the fact that year-round loincloth weather is the norm in Mesoamerica and peninsular Florida, while less common in the Mississippi delta region and quite uncommon (even in summer!) around the Great Lakes, argues that it is more likely that the Book of Mormon Land Southward is in either of the former two, and progressively less likely in either of the latter two.
See http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/2008/12/25/horse-hockey-climate-scientology-%E2%80%9Cgetting-rid%E2%80%9D-of-the-medieval-warming-period/ and http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html#q3 and http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/temperature/ and http://www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/tar/wg1/005.htm for further weather and climate details.
Hi Steven!
It is good to talk with you again. I see that you are still searching for evidence to place the Book of Mormon lands in your home state of Florida. 🙂
Most of the text that mentions bare skin is in the context of war and battle preparations. Hand to hand combat is extremely physical. In these situations bare skin would not be uncomfortable in cooler air, and would actually be a physical advantage. (However, the Nephites trumped this advantage by the protection of their armor.)
Climate differences would not be enough to weigh the probability of Book of Mormon lands from Louisiana in favor of Florida.
Touche Brandley.
The weather thing is a straw man anyway. Does it mention items pertaining to tropical weather like the “rains” “mud” “mud slids” “tempest” or “floods”?
Danderson, some logic however the record shows Western New York enduring a warm climate during BoM times and droughts.
There is a mental view for some reason being held by you all that no one had shelter??
Western New York is rich in a number of fuel sources so keepign warm would not have been a problem during the seasons of the year that were cold.
Theodore says:
Nice “cyber-seeing” you too! 😉
I’m not only seeking evidence, I’m finding it! 😉
Theodore continues:
True enough, but heavy physical activity is not enough to offset conditions common to the Great Lakes in April (Hi: 50’s, Lo: 30’s)–and colder.
When I was in the military, under such conditions, I have always worn a sweatsuit when doing physical training–or taking my physical fitness tests.
Theodore continues:
More accurately, climate ALONE MIGHT be insufficient, but other factors add considerable weight to that.
By the by, April averages in New Orleans is Hi 78, Lo 58; in Tampa it is Hi 82, Lo 62. See
http://www.rssweather.com/climate/Louisiana/New%20Orleans/
and
http://www.rssweather.com/climate/Florida/Tampa/
Arlin Nusbaum says:
While that was sometimes true, on average, it was NOT warmer than the Medieval Optimum, or even modern times. Indeed, it was considerably colder.
I have some recent photos of substantial snow in the region–and of a frozen Irondequoit Bay. If New York and other Great Lakes States and Provinces are subject to heavy snow and ice in the 21st century, it is probably more true in Book of Mormon times.
Arlin Nusbaum continues:
I haven’t the foggiest where you got that. I definitely did NOT say–or even imply–anything of the sort! What I DID say was that those naked kids were indoors, warmed by fire in the hearth.
Pray don’t ascribe beliefs to me that I don’t hold.
Arlin Nusbaum continues:
While that is true overall, it was NOT so in the heat of battle on the field.
Mind you, I have no problem with the idea of the Nephites’ last stand being in upstate NY. I have photos showing that Hill Cumorah is a VERY defencable position. Where my problem lies is your placement of the Land Southward; it does violence to the text of the Book of Mormon.
Steven,
I see from the other post that you have still not come to a correct understanding of the direction of flow of the Sidon. Let me see if I can help you one more time. 🙂 Please set all preconceptions aside for a moment. The direction of flow of the Sidon is clear from the following text.
From this text we learn that:
1. The narrow strip of wilderness runs east and west on the borders of a seashore. Therefore this seashore runs east and west on one side of the narrow strip of wilderness.
2. The land of Zarahemla borders the other side of the strip of wilderness. Zarahemla is on the north side of the narrow strip and therefore the sea is on the south side. Zarahemla is therefore north of the sea.
3. From many other scriptures we know that Zarahemla was on the River Sidon, and the river was oriented north and south.
4. Rivers flow to the sea.
From the analysis of the above text, which direction does the river Sidon flow? From Zarahemla to the north? Or from Zarahemla to the south?
Theodore
I stand by my original post:
And ask that anyone discussing weather as some determiner for a geographical location 2k years ago respect their reference to “seasons” and “seasonal illnesses” that were curable by herbs (malaria is not curable by herbs).
Steve, explain why my Land Southward is violent.
Theodore,
The twising of verse to support a pre-determined geography doesn’t work. To substaniate that there was zero amounts of water south of Zarahemla read this:
What was south of the Land of Zarahemla and Nephi? Lamanite lands – not an ocean.
DISTANCE FROM BOUNTIFUL TO MANTI
To substantiate how ridiculous your and others models are, consider the distance from Bountiful to the river’s head:
DISTANCE FROM CITY OF ZARAHEMLA TO THE EAST SEA
Next calculate the distance from the City of Zarahemla to the East Sea:
It’s a waste of time to discuss models that don’t reflect the smallness of Book of Mormon lands.
Deleted, off-topic
Arlin,
What you label as “twisting,” because it does not fit your model, I consider to be a careful reading of the Alma 22:27 text. Do you deny that the text states that the “narrow” strip of wilderness ran east and west? Do you deny that the text states that the “narrow” strip of wilderness ran along the seashore? Do you deny that the text states that the land of Zarahemla was north of the “narrow” strip of wilderness?
The narrow strip of wilderness, which was inhabited by the Lamanites, was south of the land of Zarahemla. The Land of Nephi was south and west of the land of Zarahemla, as Mexico is south and west of Louisiana.
“Now, the more idle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness, and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; yea, and also on the west of the land of Zarahemla…” (Alma 22:28)
The Nephites considered everything in the azimuth angle of the rising sun as east, and everything within the azimuth angle of the setting sun as west (54 degrees (at 30 degrees north latitude)). Every thing else (126 degrees) was either north or south. (see Larry Poulsen, Directions in the Book of Mormon, http://bomgeography.poulsenll.org/bomdirections.html )
I have no idea how you came to that conclusion from those scriptures.
Arlin, these scriptures are all about Manti, which was south of Zarahemla, and do not even mention the East Sea. I am sorry, but I simply cannot follow your reasoning.
Then please do not waste your time on me because I do not agree with the confinement of the lands of the Book of Mormon in a small area of either Northeastern US or Mesoamerica.
Theodore
editor: please correct my error in blocking. Thanks
Theodore, where is your Land Northward surrounded by FOUR SEAS?
JayDee, why resist a book supporting Jesus?
Deleted
Deleted. JayDee, if you would like to contribute to the subject, feel free to. But this isn’t the place to come and throw out random anti-Mormon attacks.
Arlin, you wrote:
That is a legitimate question. In Alma 22:32 we read:
“…the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward.” (Alma 22:32)
I interpret this scripture to mean that the combined lands of the Lamanites and the Nephites (the North American Continent) was nearly surrounded by water. That means there was a sea on the south, the Gulf of Mexico; a sea on the east, the Atlantic; a sea on the west, the Pacific; and a sea on the north, the Arctic (includes Hudson Bay). Nephi knew that they were on “an isle of the sea.” (2 Nephi 10:20)
The scripture I think you are referring to states:
“And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east.” (Helaman 3:8)
I interpret this scripture to mean that they spread over much of the continent.
Theodore
Most modelers confuse the location of the Sea South because they failed to fashion their Internal Map prior to choosing a physical map.
Where is your Internal Map?
In my opinion, creating an internal map has the potential to lead one away from the truth.
I began my research when I discovered from the text that the river Sidon flowed from north to south. The best river on the continent to meet the Sidon criteria is the Mississippi. To confirm this, there had to be archaeological remains of Zarahemla about two hundred miles or so from the Gulf, on the west side of the river. Right where it should be, the majestic remains at Poverty Point fit the requirements perfectly, including King Benjamin’s tower on the west end of the temple mound. With the Mississippi as Sidon and Poverty Point as Zarahemla every other major land mark fell into place exactly where the text said it was to be. Anyone who is interested can download my research at
http://brandley.poulsenll.org/
Theodore
“Leads one from the truth” only if one had a preconceived idea of its size and location.
Where is your sea WEST OF ZARAHEMLA?
The fact that almost everyone comes up with a different internal map indicates that it is not helpful in finding the truth.
With Louisiana as the land of Zarahemla, the land west of Louisiana also borders on the sea.
The errors of others is not an excuse. The only people avoiding the creation of an Internal Map are those who:
a. Failed to create one before picking a geographical location.
b. Are afraid of exposing their intellect.
At least Clark and FAIR have it right, ALL MODELERS MUST FIRST PRODUCE INTERNAL MAPS!
Regarding Zarahemla, your West Sea is south of it, not west where it is supposed to be.
Arlin Nusbaum asks:
Because there is no acceptable “small neck of land” connecting it with the Land Northward–that seems to be the only exception to its being COMPLETELY surrounded by water. Moreover, there is no navigable northward-flowing river, required by Alma 22:37.
Mind you, I have no problem with upstate New York being part of the Land Northward, or with the Nephites’ last stand being on Hill Cumorah near Palmyra, NY, but the goegraphy and climate of the area strikes me as a VERY bad setting for the Land Southward.
Arlin Nusbaum, to Theodore Brandley:
Not quite right; southern Louisiana IS a peninsula, and Vermillion, Atchafalaya, and West Cote Bays probably qualify as an adequate “West Sea,” and Chandeleur Sound may be an OK “East Sea.” However, by your standards, we’re still missing a “North Sea,” unless you count Lake Pontchartrain–and I don’t.
Arlin Nusbaum says, to nobody in particular:
Or lack of intellect. 😉
Your statement is true for the very good reason that internal maps are necessary is to make sure proposed sites align with the text.
We must beware, though, that we do not read our assumptions into the text–for obvious reasons. 😉
Steven, we have an official watershed map of the area which reveals the Narrow Neck clearly, have a look.
There is no Alma 22:37. If you’re referring to the River Sidon, it is the Buffalo River, which does flows northward out to a sea, big enough to carry dead bodies – if that’s what you were meaning to address.
Seriously?
I’ll presume you live in that area and for that reason are blind to the requirements for an east and west sea.
Arlin wrote:
There is nowhere in the text that states there was a sea west of Zarahemla. “West Sea” is the name of the sea. The Nephites inhabited the land from Louisiana to the Atlantic and the names “East Sea” (Atlantic Ocean) and “West Sea” (Gulf of Mexico) differentiated between the two.
Honestly, the fruit of the condemned IS confusion.
You disavow the reference to the Land Northward being surrounded by FOUR SEAS; you ignore the verses showing that the distance from Bountiful to Manti was a day and the distance from the City of Zarahemla to the East Sea was a day; and you refuse to acknowledge the sea west of Zarahemla.
Where is your Internal Map?
Are you in bed with Covino Jr.?
Arlin,
Alma 22:28 clearly states that the was a wilderness west of the land of Zarahemla full of Lamanites. Therefore, there cannot be a sea on the west side of the land of Zarahemla. That is a perfect example of the problems of doing an internal map.
“Now, the more idle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness, and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; yea, AND ALSO ON THE WEST OF THE LAND OF ZARAHEMLA…” (Alma 22:28, emphasis added)
You did not give any evidence to support your points of view, only assertions, and attempts to insult, which do not enhance the discussion.
Brandley, cite the entire verse:
There is a review of Theodore’s map on our web site, just search for his name.
So?
Arlin,
Your point in highlighting the last half of the verse is…?
Arlin Nusbaum Says:
I’ve seen Wikipedia’s version. Your entire Land Southward is a narrow neck tilted 90 degrees.
Moreover, I have a problem with your placemnt of the South Sea to the north of the Land Southward. The text clearly states that the Land Southward is “nearly surrounded by water” except for a “small neck of land” connecting it to the Land Northward. Your model (http://www.bookofmormongeography.org/book-of-mormon-geography-map) does not have that “nearly surrounded” Land Southward.
It was Alma 22:27. Sorry for the misprint.
At least you get the fact that it flows northward right! 😉
Danderson said earlier:
To which Arlin Nusbaum asked,
Why shouldn’t I take an honest attempt to find answers seriously?
Really, I take your model quite seriously, even though I don’t find it persuasive; it is an honest attempt to find answers.
Why should I take Theodore’s model, which I don’t find any more persuasive, any less seriously? While I don’t accept those bays as the West Sea, they ARE substantial bodies of water, and thus, I cannot reject the Louisiana Peninsula on that score.
I DO, however, reject it because of OTHER factors! 😉
You presume wrongly. I’ve never lived in Louisiana, though my wife and I had occasionally traveled there before we married.
I warn you again about preconceptions. Yours appear to contain assumptions of illegitimate motives in others who disagree with you. I really don’t like your accusing question whether Theodore was “in bed with Covino, Jr.”
Steven,
You mentioned that you were finding evidence to support your Florida theory. I would be interested to hear about that evidence.
No, the entire Land Southward is bordered by Lake Erie & Niagara Gorge on the west which flows north, no turns; and the east is bordered by the Genesee River/Gorge which also flows north, no turns.
The watershed map shows the lay of the land and yes, the River Sidon flows north west.
How large each sea was during BoM time is open to discussion.
Danderson, thanks for looking but you failed to read, take note what EVERYONE fails to comprehend:
Obviously, if the Land Northward had a Sea South then that sea would be the northern border of the Land Southward. Thus, the “nearly surrounded by water” reference for the Land Southward means NO WATER ON THE SOUTH.
These Disclosures should be required of all modelers:
a. Did or do you live, work, visit or serve a mission there? NO.
b. Do you know someone who did? NO.
c. Are you friends with a person who already has a model? NO.
d. Is the model based on someones “spiritual” insights? i.e. Covino’s is based on Elieson’s. NO.
e. Do you have a financial interest, currently or in the future, directly or indirectly, in for model? NO.
Arlin,
I am curious about what you think of Thomas S Monson as the living prophet of God to the earth?
Answer Disclosures a.- e.
That is what I thought.
How one feels about the living prophet should be a reasonable disclosre for someone who claims special insights into the Book of Mormon.
That’s what I thought. Say hi to Cavino.
Mr. Nusbaum, who is Cavino?
You really must tell us who it is we’re supposedly in bed with before accusing us! 😉
To Tyler, Steven, and all other sincere seekers of the truth of the geography of the Book of Mormon:
For 180 years Latter-day Saints have been searching to match the text of the Book of Mormon to the real and correct locations where the events occurred. During this time there have probably been 180 serious proposals as to where those events may have happened. Even in the two most popular areas, Mesoamerica and the Great Lakes, there are many competing scenarios. With all of this time and all of these proposals, there has not risen a consensus, and the prophets have not endorsed any one of them. Why is this so?
The detractors of the Book of Mormon point to this confusion as prime evidence that the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction and therefore no such real place exists. However, serious, sincere seekers of the truth know that the Book of Mormon is true and factual, and that the events described in it occurred on real ground which still exists today. Mormon wrote the book for us, whom he had seen in detailed vision. From the wealth of detailed geographical information that Mormon provided for us, it is obvious that he wanted us to know where he was writing about. He wrote it 400 years after the cataclysmic geologic changes that occurred in America at the death of the Savior, so we may be assured that the places he wanted us to know about still exist in our day. Why can we not then understand it? Why is it such a riddle and such a puzzle?
There must be some basic misunderstanding of the interpretation of the text. There must be one or more primary details that are commonly misinterpreted by all models. I am convinced that reason that the real Book of Mormon lands have not been recognized and accepted is that we have been misreading and misunderstanding two key elements of Mormon’s descriptions. The error in these two primary elements are preventing and precluding the finding of the truth. I believe these two key elements are, the direction of flow of the river Sidon, and the meaning of the “narrow neck of land.”
FLOW DIRECTION OF THE RIVER SIDON
As mentioned previously, the direction of flow of the Sidon is contained in the following verse:
From this text we learn that:
1.The narrow strip of wilderness runs east and west on the borders of a seashore. Therefore this seashore runs east and west on one side of the narrow strip of wilderness.
2.The land of Zarahemla borders the other side of the strip of wilderness. Zarahemla is on the north side of the narrow strip and therefore the sea is on the south side. Zarahemla is therefore north of the sea.
3.From many other scriptures we know that Zarahemla was on the River Sidon, and the river was oriented north and south.
4.Rivers flow to the sea.
From the analysis of the above text it is clear that the river Sidon flows from Zarahemla to the south? However, the confusion comes from a following word of the same verse:
It is automatically presumed that the word “head” refers to the source of the river, even though the context of the description is about the nearness to the seashore. Rivers end by the seashore and they rarely have their source near the sea. Rivers never have their source by the sea when they run perpendicular to the sea, as does the river Sidon. There is a second witness from the text in confirming that the head of the river Sidon was by the sea:
The “head” of the river Sidon is by the sea, and therefore the word “head” cannot refer to the source of the river Sidon. There are two other possible meanings for “head” in this context. First, the word “head” has a different meaning when it relates to lands by the sea. In this case it refers to a promontory or headland that juts out into the sea, such as Hilton Head in South Carolina, or Nags Head in North Carolina. A large river forms a delta or a “headland” where it empties into the sea as the silt carried by the river is deposited there over time. An alternative explanation is that Joseph Smith understood the phrase “head of the river” to mean where the river empties into the sea. This probability is supported by the fact that in 1792 the New York State Legislature passed a bill creating the town of RIVERHEAD in Suffolk Count, New York, on the north shore of Long Island. The name signifies that the MOUTH of the Peconic River is in this town where it flows into Flanders Bay at the east end of Long Island. Joseph Smith, was born and raised in New York where the State law makers considered the MOUTH of the river to be the “HEAD” of the river. It is reasonable to assume therefore that Joseph Smith also understood the mouth of the River Sidon to be the “head of the River Sidon.” There are two reasonable alternatives to the traditional reading of the “head of the river Sidon.”
UNDERSTANDING THE “NARROW NECK OF LAND”
The following are the only two references to “the narrow neck of land.”
From these verses it is commonly assumed that the “narrow neck of land” is an “hourglass” that separates the land of Bountiful from the land Desolation. However, a careful reading of these verses describes these events as occurring “by” the narrow neck of land, rather than on it, or through it. Nothing in the text ever goes “through the “narrow neck of land.” There is a “narrow neck of land” “by” the border of land Desolation and the land Bountiful. Also, the narrow neck of land is by the place where the “SEA divides the land” rather than where the LAND divides the sea. For example, the hourglass created by the Isthmus of Panama divides the “seas” (plural). It joins North America to South America. “The sea” (singular), does not divide the Americas. No one ever speaks of “the sea” (singular) dividing the Americas. A more reasonable understanding of these scriptures is that there is a long major inlet or bay coming in from the seacoast that divides the land, and creates a peninsula. The peninsula is the “narrow neck of land.” The head of the narrow peninsula is “by” the border of the land Bountiful and Desolation.
It is also assumed that the “west sea” mentioned in Alma 63:5 is the same west sea mentioned in other scriptures. However, directional notations in the Book of Mormon are always relative to the context. A more probable reading is that Hagoth launched his ship into the sea on the west side of the narrow neck of land; into the sea on the west of the narrow peninsula.
When concepts such as the northerly flow of the river Sidon, or the hour glass shape of the land between Bountiful and Desolation, are firmly fixed into our minds, it is very difficult to see another reading of the same scriptures. The traditional reading of these scriptures has restricted the geographical search for possible locations to areas that have a northerly flowing river and an hourglass separation of lands. For 180 years this understanding has not produced a probable location that most Latter-day Saints would agree with. After 180 years it is time to examine alternative readings for the flow of river Sidon and the narrow neck of land.
Theodore
Arlin Nusbaum says,
But that’s what is DOESN’T mean.Being surrounded on 2 1/2 sides is NOT “nearly surrounded by water.”
Moreover, while the text of Ether 10:20 does state that the “sea divides the land” (except for the “narrow neck”), it does not name the sea.
Remember, as advocates of particular models, WE have the burden of proof. It does no good to call the judges in the matter (those we try to persuade) fools.
Arlin Nusbaum posits:
Fair enough. I can understand the desire to know where the person is coming from, though I would beware of the ad hominem and similar fallacies.
My answers are, in order:
a. Yes. I live in Florida, and I discuss its strengths and weaknesses below and:
http://www.fairblog.org/2008/10/05/usingand-misusing-scholarship-and-revelation/ and
http://www.fairblog.org/2009/03/31/a-look-at-meldrums-revised-dvd/
b. Yes. Pretty obvious, in light of question a! 😉
c. No. I presume you mean has a model that I adhere to.
d. No. I base my views on my understanding of the plain meaning of the text, and
e. No.
Theodore Brandley says:
The answer is simple: Other than the Book of Mormon, we have no other evidence directly known to link to the Nephites and Lamanites. Temporally speaking, we have evidence that MIGHT be a link, but that is a far cry from having evidence that IS a link.
On the spiritual side, other than the Book of Mormon itself, God has been quite mum on its geographic setting. My guess is that He wants us to exercise some effort to “Prove all things” [I Thessalonians 5:21].
Theodore Brandley says:
Theodore, we’ve been over this before. I mentioned that both the Ocklawaha and Saint Johns Rivers have heads, or sources, quite near the Atlantic Ocean.
Moreover, KTNelson said in his comment at http://www.fairblog.org/2009/03/31/a-look-at-meldrums-revised-dvd/#comment-31379 that according to I Nephi 8:14, Lehi saw the head of the river by looking “from whence it came.”
A final comment: Words mean things, and thus, convey certain mental pictures. While we definitely should not, as the Saviour put it, “strain at a gnat” [Matthew 23:24], neither should we be so loose in our definition that the text means something wholly other than what it says. For example, when the text mentions a narrow neck of land, while it may be debatable whether 90 miles is narrow enough compared to a peninsula that is about 130 miles at its widest, the narrow neck MUST be narrower than the land to which it connects.
Steven wrote:
Yes, and these rivers run parallel to the sea. That is why I specified that “rivers never have their source by the sea when they run perpendicular to the sea, as does the river Sidon.”
However, Mormon did not write this. It was translated directly from the writings of Nephi. It was Mormon who wrote “head of the river Sidon” in his abridgement of the Book of Alma, and Mormon may have meant something different than did Nephi. The translation process was such that Joseph did not go back and check how he used one word earlier in his work to make sure it was the same. One the other hand, I personally prefer the alternative explanation that the “head of the river Sidon” is the “headland” of the river Sidon, or more commonly stated, Sidon Head.
Of course. What I believe to be the “narrow neck of land” is the Delmarva Peninsula, which is only 12 miles wide where it connects to the US mainland.
You are probably right, and I think many of us have been trying to do just that.
Theodore
The ENTIRE WIDTH of BoM land was 1.5 days wide, NOT the Narrow Neck.
The word “narrow” was used by an “on the ground observer” not someone staring at a satellite map. In order for snakes to block passage to running, jumping animals, it would have been less than a hundred yards, probably less than a hundred feet. Respect what the text says!
Arlin,
Your reasoning is becoming even more absurd.
Keep in mind, I began without the curse and without any predispositions.
Steven,
On September 19th, 2010 at 9:35 pm you wrote:
Then we have a common reference point. Cumorah was in the land Northward/Desolation Alma 22:30). There was a sea east of where the Nephites were destroyed (Ether 9:3). This eastern sea can then only be the Atlantic Ocean. The southern border of Desolation was common with the land of Bountiful (Alma 22:29-30). Mormon identified the border between Desolation and Bountiful with two landmarks. The first landmark was a narrow neck of land (Alma 63:5; Ether 10:20), and the second landmark was a “narrow pass” (Alma 50:34).
Trace east on the map from Cumorah until you come to the Atlantic. Then go south along the Atlantic shore unit you come to a significant “narrow neck of land,” “where the sea divides the land.” This can only be the Delmarva Peninsula, with Delaware Bay on the east side and Chesapeake Bay on the west side. This would mark the southern border of the land Northward/Desolation, and the northern border of the land Bountiful. To confirm this we also need to check for the second landmark along this border, a “narrow pass.”
In 68 BC, a Nephite by the name of Morianton, head of the city of Morianton, attempted to conquer the people of the land of Lehi. Both cities were by the east sea in the land of Bountiful. The people of the land of Lehi fled to the camp of Moroni and plead for assistance. Morianton’s fear of Moroni caused him to take his people and flee to the land which was northward (Alma 50:29). Moroni sent an army commanded by Teancum, with their supply camp, to head the people of Morianton and stop their flight into the land northward.
Webster’s 1828 dictionary lists “pass” as a “narrow passage, entrance or avenue; a narrow or difficult place of entrance and exit; as a pass between mountains.” Mormon described a “narrow pass” which led from the sea into the land northward, which was the land of Desolation. This pass was near a place where there was a sea on the west and a sea on the east. About 50 miles west of Chesapeake Bay there is an unusual tectonic transect through the Blue Ridge Mountain Range that created a corridor through which the Potomac River flows to the sea. It is known as Harper’s Ferry. This narrow pass is the only river pass through the Blue Ridge Mountains for 700 miles to the south. It leads into the land Northward from the costal plain, near a place where there was a narrow neck of land with a sea on the east and a sea on the west. The location of this narrow pass confirms the probable location of border between the land Northward/Desolation and the land Bountiful. The land Bountiful would then run south from there, as the coastal plain between the Atlantic and the Blue Ridge Mountains.
Perhaps we still have common ground as to where the northern end of the land Bountiful would be, in relation to the land Northward/Desolation?
Theodore
You’re ignoring the facts:
1. The sea they crossed did not directly border BoM lands. Never is that sea reference except for their journey across it. Thus, neither the Atlantic nor Pacific oceans directly bordered BoM lands.
2. BoM lands were hidden.
Both your models fail.
Theodore says:
That is true. However, Mormon was almost certainly familiar with Lehi’s (and Nephi’s!) use of the word. While I already stipulated that Mormon (or Joseph Smith) misused the word, the miracle of what Friedrich Hayek called the “Catallaxy” (a spontaneous order emerging when people interact with each other) would STRONGLY imply that both Mormon and Joseph Smith used the word at its standard meaning–as did Lehi and Nephi.
The burden rests with YOU to prove that they did not.
While the northern part of the Delmarva Peninsula certainly qualifies as a “narrow neck,” and the peninsula itself is definitely “nearly surrounded by water,” you must keep in mind that the “narrow neck” connects the Land Northward with the Land Southward. I cannot see how the Delmarva Peninsula could qualify as the Land Southward, however, because as far as I can tell, it lacks a northward-flowing river and substantial hills to the east of any river that is there.
Danderson wrote earlier:
To which Theodore replied:
Which is why, unlike those who think we SHOULDN’T be looking for evidence, I applaud your efforts.
Moreover, unlike some people with models, you play by the rules of the game. This is also praiseworthy.
This has two effects:
a. You aren’t likely to devolve into apostasy.
b. It is easier to keep a charitable attitude with those you disagree.
Not devolving into apostasy and keeping a charitable attitude are ESSENTIAL to maintaining a testimony of the Gospel! 😉
Arlin Nusbaum says:
But the test does not say that. According to Alma 22:32, it is the line between Bountiful and Desolation, which stretches from sea to sea, that can be crossed in 1.5 days.
This line, as Alma 63:5 informs us, is at the narrow neck.
That is certainly true. Keep in mind, though, that there are several ways to “observe.” Taking the phrase “on the ground observer” too tightly would eliminate anything in Anglo North America.
You appear to be conflating the narrow pass with the narrow neck. If they were the same, you would, along with other factors, eliminate EVERY geographic location. While that would please anti-Mormons to no end, I DON’T think that is your intention! 😉
I am. Those who present a model have the obligation to defend it. Just because others disagree with YOURS, it doesn’t follow that they disrespect the text.
Arlin Nusbaum says:
Impossible. We ALL have predispositions based on past experience.
The only exceptions are newborns. EVERYTHING is new to them! 😉
Theodore says:
All of this appears to work. 😉
.
That would make the Delmarva Peninsula the Land Southward, since the narrow neck separates it from the Land Northward. Other factors force me to conclude that this is unlikely–to say the least! 😉
While this is true, please remember that the narrow pass is IN the narrow neck. Harper’s Ferry, WV would NOT be the narrow pass in the Book of Mormon, for that reason.
There ARE, however, 250-foot-tall hills in north-central Florida, with valley floors up to 200 feet below the hilltops. One example is the Devil’s Millhopper Geological State Park, near Gainesville, Florida. The terrain is such, the floor of this park is substantially cooler than the area surrounding it.
I cannot see why the Hill Cumorah, near Palmyra, NY, cannot be part of the Land Northward.
Arlin Nusbaum says:
That is certainly true of all of us at one time or another–and possibly true of us here.
Can you not concede the possibility that you may be ignoring facts, as well?
I don’t see how the latter sentence follows from the first.
Moreover, this is not true. Since the sight of first landing (See Alma 22:28-32) is near Zarahemla, it follows that at least ONE of the seas must be either the Atlantic or Pacific Ocean (or a gulf or bay or sea attached thereto).
That would illustrate the folly of attaching ANY known geographic setting to the Book of Mormon.
I don’t think you mean this. 😉
That may be true, but you haven’t proved it with your arguments here. 😉
1. You stated your predisposition.
2. You’re missing the verse in conjunction with the width of BoM lands. It does not refer to the “Narrow Neck or Pass”.
3. You’re ignoring the curse you are under. Do you understand the effects of the curse?
4. Where is your Internal Map? Instead of pontificating, go make a map.
Arlin Nusbaum says:
No kidding Sherlock! 😉
Now, be clear about yours–or risk being dismissed as a crank who cannot see his own biases.
This is the text of Alma 22:32:
From the text, it was the boundary between Bountiful and Desolation that was 1 1/2 days travel. It says NOTHING about the width of the Land Southward as a whole.
We learn from Alma 22:31 that Desolation was in the Land Northward and Bountiful was in the Land Southward–and from the next verse, cited above, that the narrow neck divided the two.
You figure it out. 😉
I really don’t give a Flying Fickle Finger of Fate Award about any curse you give me.
Any curse in the Book of Mormon, however, doesn’t apply to me, since I don’t hold it as a thing of naught. 😉
If you’re not clear about my internal map, there’s no hope for you! 😉
I’m not the one who insists that MY model is the only correct one–and cursing those who disagree.
Now, from your web site, I see that you have an MA; thus, you should know the rules of the research game! YOU bear the burden of proving YOUR model!
I’ve given you many reasons for not being convinced of your model. Instead of being all hot and bothered that I don’t bow to your model, answer my concerns and give more reasons to support it!
54 And your MINDS in times past have BEEN DARKENED because of unbelief, and because you have TREATED LIGHTLY the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the WHOLE CHURCH UNDER CONDEMNATION.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And THEY SHALL REMAIN UNDER THIS CONDEMNATION UNTIL THEY REPENT AND REMEMBER THE NEW COVENANT EVEN THE BOOK OF MORMON, NOT ONLY TO SAY BUT TO DO (D&C 84)
But Mr. Nusbaum, I DO remember the Book of Mormon! It is the word of God!
However, it is your INTERPRETATION that I discount! 😉
Hmmm…are you LDS?
Arlin Nusbaum asks:
Yes. For obvious reasons, most people who are interested in Book of Mormon geography are, you know! 😉
It’s a church wide curse.
Arlin Nusbaum Says:
So? Inactivity is also a Church-wide curse (perhaps related to the curse you speak of?), but it doesn’t follow that EVERY member of the Church is inactive.
Why, then, assume that every member of the Church treats the Book of Mormon lightly?
President Benson confirmed that the church wide curse was not lifted. I can confirm his assessment, look at the darkness.
Steve, perhaps now you see why I stopped my communication with Arlin…
Arlin Nusbaum Says:
Still irrelevant. Just because the curse is Church-wise, it doesn’t follow that every member is under that curse.
Don’t they teach logic anymore? 😉
Tyler Livingston Says:
You know me; I’m an optimist. Maybe he’ll learn…. 😉
Steven Danderson said on September 27th, 2010 at 11:38 am
From Alma 22:27 we learn that the seashore, south of the land of Zarahemla, runs east and west. There are 12 references to people and lands being either one the east side or the west side of the river Sidon. There are no references to anything on the north or the south of Sidon. Manti was on the east of the river Sidon (Alma 16:7). Manti was on the north side of the narrow strip of wilderness that was running east and west along the seashore (Alma 22:27). Manti was also by the head of the river Sidon. It is clear from the text that the Sidon ran perpendicular to the sea from Zarahemla, south, to the head of the river Sidon.
Lehi and Nephi wrote 1,000 years before Mormon. During that time the language was changed considerably. Mormon wrote that both the Hebrew and the Egyptian had been altered by them and that no one else knew their language (Mormon 9:32-34). It is probable that Mormon would have written a different word than did Nephi from which Joseph translated the words “head” (even if Mormon had wanted it to mean the same thing).
The proof that “head of the river Sidon” is something other than its source, is in the context. The river Sidon ran to the sea, perpendicular to it, to the head of the river, near the sea. The word “head” must therefore either refer to the mouth of the river or the headland formed by the river.
There is nothing in the text that says the narrow neck of land “connects the Land Northward with the Land Southward.
“And they built a great city BY the narrow neck of land, BY the place where the sea divides the land” (Ether 10:20, emphasis added; see also Alma 63:5).
Notice that the city was not built ON the narrow neck of land,” it was BY the narrow neck. The narrow neck was BY the border between the two lands. The idea that the southern portion of the narrow neck IS the Land Southward, or that it has a river, or substantial hills, is a misconception that is not found in the text. Your assertions are not founded in fact, and the burden of proof of them now lies with you.
Steven Danderson said on September 27th, 2010 at 12:31 pm
Again, that is not in the text.
The land Northward/Desolation goes east to the Atlantic Ocean (Ether 9:3; Alma 22:30), and south to the land of Bountiful. Therefore the east-west border between the land Desolation and Bountiful lies at a point along the Atlantic seaboard, somewhere between Cumorah and Florida.
“And [Bountiful] bordered upon the land which they called Desolation, it being so far northward that it came into the land which had been peopled and been destroyed, of whose bones we have spoken, which was discovered by the people of Zarahemla, it being the place of their first landing.” (Alma 22:30)
Therefore, the border we are seeking is a considerable distance north, somewhere along the Atlantic Coast, where there are the two landmarks of a “narrow neck of land,” and a “narrow pass.” These landmarks match perfectly with the Delmarva Peninsula and Harpers Ferry. The land of Bountiful therefore runs south from there, between the sea and the Blue Ridge Mountains, to what we now call Florida. Bountiful is the connector between Desolation and Florida.
Theodore
Theodore Brandley Says:
Actually, from the text, it is the wilderness that runs east to west. The text is reproduced here (emphasis mine):
Possibly, but the burden is on you to prove it.
It is a poor argument that is based on the unlikely–unless the more likely possibilities are impossible in that particular context.
Agreed–especially in the context of yours, mine, and the Mesoamerican models.
Except, according to Alma 22:32, the border between Desolation runs from sea to sea (emphasis mine):
Theodore quotes Alma 22:30:
Theodore reasons from the text:
Well, you’re getting closer! 😉
There are some problems with your reasoning. First, Hagoth’s launching point, according to Alma 63:5, is from the West Sea, near the narrow neck:
According to Alma 50:34, the narrow pass was near the border of the Land Desolation, and, according to Alma 52:9, it led into the Land Northward. That puts the narrow pass at or near the narrow neck.
Moreover, Hagoth’s launching point was near the point where the Nephites, Mulekites, or Jaredites first landed on this continent.
Harpers Ferry is on the Potomac River–hundreds of miles away from anything that can be called a sea–which disqualifies the area from being the narrow pass–and from being Hagoth’s launching point. I cannot imagine a reason that they would sail hundreds of miles inland before setting foot on land.
Thus, a heartland model just won’t work….
Steven writes:
Steven, you neglected to highlight the last phrase, “and round about on the borders of the seashore.” With a narrow strip of wilderness running east and west, and bordering on the seashore, then the seashore also must run east and west.
Regarding your questions about Hagoth’s launching point:
Sorry, I messed up my block formating again 🙁
Theodore Brandley Says:
So it does–SOUTH of Lehi-Hephi. Note that the Land Southward is “nearly surrounded by water” except for “a small neck of land” to the north.
Similarly, the northern strip of wilderness separates Lehi-Nephi from Zarahemla; then, at the coast, follows that coast southward, looping around northward when at the peninsula’s southern terminus.
That would make the Delmarva peninsula the Land Southward. Besides the climate problems, there is a whole host of topographical problems….
Harpers Ferry is roughly 110 miles west of the western-most point of Delmarva’s narrow neck. I overspoke–just a little! 😉
Since Hagoth launched his ships–and the “first landing” was–near the narrow neck, it struck me as more logical to consider the distance from Harper Ferry to the narrow neck, rather than to the nearest point on Chesapeake Bay.
Still, my point stands; Harpers Ferry is just too far away.
The northerly flow of the Sidon is evident from the fact that the Sidon’s head is SOUTH of an abutting downriver city! 😉
While I admit that it is POSSIBLE for Alma, Mormon, and/or Joseph Smith to misuse the word “head,” the burden is on YOU to show that it is ACTUAL. 🙂
Citing a Book, chapter, and verse demonstrating that would be nice! 😉
Fr the text I cited beforehand, I place the narrow pass in or by the narrow neck.
That is because the text is nearly absolutist in language. For example, the text specifically states that the land containing Zarahemla and Lehi-Nephi is “nearly surrounded by water.” Therefore, any model placing those cities outside of a peninsula or other land “nearly surrounded by water” is untenable.
You just upended the layout of the land. 😉
According to the text, Bountiful and Desolation abut the narrow neck–and each other, with Desolation to the north and Bountiful to the south.
Actually, it is the NORTHERN border of Bountiful that can be traversed in a day and a half. 😉
Oh, but it DOES exist! Look at a map of Florida! 😉
Steven,
Do I understand that you think that the northern border of Bountiful is northern Florida?
Theodore Brandley asks:
Or could be! That’s where the narrow neck is! 😉
I’m not yet convinced that Florida is truly the site of the Land Southward, but it meets–as far as I can tell–all of the geographic and climatic markers.
Steven said:
Steven, your narrow neck is 100 miles wide, and only slightly more narrow than the land on both sides of it. I don’t think that would qualify as a “narrow neck.” Perhaps if the land on both side of it were four or five hundred miles wide? The Delmarva Peninsula is only 14 miles wide where is attaches to the mainland.
No problem with the climate but there are a few problems with the geography.
First of all there is not enough room. The Nephites and Jaredites shared the continent for 400 years without contact. That would be highly improbable if the middle of Florida divides the land Bountiful from the land Desolation. Alma and his people fled from King Noah’s army for eight days then later from the Lamanites for thirteen days, for a total of twenty-one days travel from Lehi-Nephi to Zarahemla. Alma was traveling with children and flocks but they were fleeing for their lives. “The Lord did strengthen them that the people of King Noah did not overtake them to destroy them.” They would had to have done a minimum of 30 miles a day or the pursuers would have caught them. That makes it 600 miles from somewhere in the land of Nephi to the city of Zarahemla. From the southern tip of Florida to its narrowest waist is only 300 miles, and that is to the land Desolation! On size alone it won’t work.
If your north flowing St. John’s River is the Sidon, there is no room for the land of Jershon, the land of Antionum and the land of Bountiful, between the east side of the river and the sea, south of your narrow neck.
Where are your archaeological ruins of Zarahemla on the west side of Sidon? It was the center of the civilization for at least 500 years and there should be some evidence of it.
But, I will forgo further critique. I don’t want to make you feel discouraged. 😉
I’m away from my computer until next week.
Best regards, Theodore
I would like to start my own blog one day. This was a really nice blog that you made here. Keep up the success 😛
Theodore Brandley Says:
Certainly the width of the narrow neck mentioned in the Book of Mormon is debatable. However, I DON’T think that an isthmus roughly 50 miles thinner than the attached peninsula is only “slightly more narrow”! 😉
Is Delmarva where Zarahemla and Lehi-Nephi are located? If not, then its northern part cannot be the narrow neck.
There is even LESS room in Delmarva!
Florida’s land mass is not so improbable to have two groups without much contact with each other. The Calusas in south Florida had minimal interaction with the Timuacan to their near north.
YOU try to travel 30 miles per day in swamp! 40,000 square miles, much of it swamps, rivers, or lakes, are PLENTY of room!
Actually, I think the Ocklawaha River is more suitable as the Sidon River. That means there is plenty of room for the former two lands. Bountiful, which stretches from sea to sea, is north from them.