This week: Lesson 32, “To Seal the Testimony” (D&C 135).
Subjects covered: The martyrdom of Joseph Smith.
Potential issues:
- Joseph fired a gun in Carthage Jail (related: The Church is hiding this fact).
- Martyrdom in Christian history.
- The Nauvoo Legion was supposed to rescue Joseph.
- Joseph and his companions drank wine the night before the martyrdom.
- The Council of Fifty / Joseph Smith anointed “king of the world”.
- Joseph’s Presidential candidacy.
- The Nauvoo Expositor.
- “Oh Lord, my God” was a Masonic distress call.
- Status of Joseph Smith in LDS belief (related: Joseph as subject of hymns).
- Joseph Smith is the Holy Ghost.
If you can think of any other issues from this week’s lesson, please comment below so we can add more links.
PLEASE NOTE: This information is a preparatory resource for gospel doctrine teachers to help them formulate answers to questions that might arise during their class. It is not in any way a substitute for the Gospel Doctrine manual, nor should instructors make these topics the focus of class instruction. This information is provided with the understanding that it is an additional resource only.
I had never heard the claim that Joseph Smith was the Holy Ghost. The bizarre things you learn from reading blogs!
Ardis,
Yeah, that’s an obscure one, but it is out there. It’s an article of faith for many polygamist/fundamentalist Mormons (along with Adam-God and a few other things that never took off among mainstream Saints).
The idea that Joseph Smith now occupies the office of Holy Ghost was indeed popular among the early saints. One can Google “Joseph Smith Holy Ghost” and get some pretty interesting hits, both pro and con.
And, yes, us fundamentalist-types consider it to be true.
Some people, even some Mormons, foolishly look at fundamentalists and think they’re seeing *us* 125 years ago, as if fundamentalists were frozen in time instead of deviating along a tangent. I’ll add this to my list of “you don’t know what you’re talking about” points for the next time I hear that. Thanks, Mike.
Mike, would the bloodstain on the floor myth be applicable here?
The idea of Joseph Smith acting as king probably came from his interpretation of Isaiah 11 as himself being the root and rod of Jesse:
Isaiah 11:
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and cunderstanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge bafter the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
10 ¶ And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth
According to D&C 113, the rod and the root are the same person (Joseph Smith?), and the stem is Jesus Christ.
D&C 113:
1 Who is the Stem of Jesse spoken of in the 1st, 2d, 3d, 4th, and 5th verses of the 11th chapter of Isaiah?
2 Verily thus saith the Lord: It is Christ.
3 What is the rod spoken of in the first verse of the 11th chapter of Isaiah, that should come of the Stem of Jesse?
4 Behold, thus saith the Lord: It is a servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much bpower.
5 What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?
6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days.
According to Isaiah and Jeremiah, the Branch is the Messiah, Jesus to the Christians.
Jeremiah 23:
3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the Lord.
5 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8 But, The Lord liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.
But, according to Revelations the Root is Jesus Christ:
Revelations 5:
1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, bhaving seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Revelation 22:
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
The Branch, who was to build the Temple already came; his name was Joshua (Hebrew for Jesus), a Levite.
Zechariah 6:
11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
The Apostles expected the temple they had to remain until Christ’s second coming.
Revelation 11:
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Revelation 14:
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
The New Jerusalem will have no temple.
Revelations 21:
1 And I saw a new bheaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first dearth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new bJerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Juliann: I’d love to. Is there a document somewhere I can link to?
onika: The last book of the New Testament is “Revelation.” Note the title is singular, not plural.
Sorry Mike, I thought I took all of them off.
Interesting facts, history and trivia on bloodstains here:
http://www.mormontimes.com/studies_doctrine/church_history/?id=7914
Mike, this stuff is great. Although I’m not currently teaching Gospel Doctrine, I always read these preparatory tidbits you prepare each week in the hopes that some “enlightened” teacher will bring something similar up.
Thanks for your diligence.
Thanks, Jeremy. I’m glad to know someone appreciates the effort. 🙂
onika,
May I suggest that, in the future, instead of quoting long passages of scripture, you might simply cite the passage (e.g., “Revelation 5:1–9”) rather than cut-and-paste the entire text here? Your comments are much more likely to be read if they’re not long and jammed with prooftexts.
If your argument requires that you quote a passage, cite the entire passage itself, but only quote the most relevant portion of it.
We all have our own copies of the scriptures and are capable of looking up passages if necessary.
Thanks.
Ok Mike, I tried to only quote the relevant parts, but if I take things out of context then people may not understand my conclusions. Here are my comments:
The idea of Joseph Smith acting as king probably came from his interpretation of Isaiah 11(1-5; 10-12) as himself being the root and rod of Jesse (D&C 113:1-6. According to D&C 113, the rod and the root are the same person (Joseph Smith?), and the stem is Jesus Christ.
According to Isaiah and Jeremiah, the Branch is the Messiah, Jesus to the Christians(Jeremiah 23: 3-8).
But, according to The Revelation of St. John the Divine the Root is Jesus Christ (Rev. 5:1-9; 22:16).
The Branch, who was to build the Temple already came; his name was Joshua (Hebrew for Jesus), a Levite. (Zechariah 6:11-13)
The Apostles expected the temple they had to remain until Christ’s second coming. The New Jerusalem will have no temple (Rev. 11:1,2,19; 14:13-17; 21:1-3, 22).
To sum it up, all three books (OT, NT, D&C) contradict each other.
Thanks, onika. That was much more concise and understandable.
Obviously the NT interprets the OT in a way that non-Christian Jews would not accept. Some of those interpretations are certainly legitimate; others are questionable at best (e.g., Matthew 1:23 miscontexualizing Isaiah 7:14).
Similarly, LDS scripture interprets the OT and NT in a way that non-LDS Christians would not accept.
As someone who has taught Isaiah 11, I confess that I don’t quite follow the interpretation in D&C 113. Fortunately it isn’t a fundamental principle upon which Mormonism rises or falls, IMHO.
One issue that threw one of my fellow missionaries for a loop, back in the day, was Joseph and his fellow Carthage prisoners’ sharing a bottle of wine on the day of the martyrdom.
My guess is that Joseph was trying to explain why the Messiah (Prince) is described as a regular mortal human rather than a supernatural Jesus Christ. If the God of the OT (Jehovah) is Jesus Christ, why does he describe himself in the third person: “Messiah the Prince”; “my servant David a prince”? The prince even enters a different way than the Lord enters the sanctuary (Ezekiel 44). The prince offers up sacrifices to the Lord (Ez. 45, 46). Clearly Jehovah is not the Messiah, and not Jesus.
See Daniel 9:25; Ezekiel 34:23–24; 43:4–5; 44:1–3.
Edited by admin for brevity.
Thomas,
Thanks for the suggestion. I added a link that addresses that issue.
Interesting illustration and notes here:
http://www.imagesoftherestoration.org/blog/?p=12
Actually, this article contains a few interesting tidbits – Clayton’s journal entry explaining why they weren’t wearing their garments (there’s not a FAIR Wiki page on that, is there?) and then in the comments section there’s a link to an article explaining that John Taylor would have sung “Poor Wayfaring Man” to a different tune than we do today. (Article even contains sheet music and a sampling of the tune.)
http://www.mormontimes.com/studies_doctrine/church_history/?id=4102
(And Mike – I, too, greatly appreciate these Gospel Doctrine posts.)
At a temple dedication, I’m afraid I couldn’t resist jousting with some of the Protestant protestors outside. They brought up the fact that Joseph went as a particularly well-armed lamb to the slaughter, and asked if there was ever a prophet who killed people.
They were a little taken aback when I reminded them of the story of how Samuel “hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord” as the captured king pleaded for his life. Ah, the perils of relying on the Cliffs Notes version….
Reed,
The creator of the “Images of the Restoration” is a critic of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Church’s artwork portraying historical events is not always accurate, but “Images of the Restoration” suffers from the same problem from the other side of the spectrum — the depictions are designed purely for polemical effect.
Take for the example the image you linked: In this one scene, we have all the criticisms of Joseph’s last night in Carthage lumped into one. John Taylor and Hyrum Smith are both smoking pipes, while Joseph Smith is not just drinking, but guzzling from a wine glass that he evidently intends to refill from the bottle in his other hand. Joseph has his shirt wide open to expose his garment-less breast, and Joseph and Hyrum are openly toying with the pistols that were smuggled in to the jail by their associates.
Rather than striving for historical accuracy, IotR attempts to exploit Mormons’ unfamiliarity with the details of their own history. I have found that to be true of every drawing hosted there.
To the best of my knowledge, there isn’t a wiki entry on Joseph, Hyrum, and John Taylor’s choice not to wear the temple garment (or “robe”) at Carthage. The Clayton diary sums up the reasons well. We also have to keep in mind that the early Saints didn’t have the defined procedures for the garment that have evolved down to our current status. (An exploitation of the fallacy of presentism.)
Thomas,
Nice call there.
My personal favorite is the story of Elisha calling in the she-bears to kill 42 children who made fun of his baldness.
As one web site warns the modern reader: Don’t dis’ Elisha!
(The animation is priceless: “Horrifying ursine killing machines!”)
“We also have to keep in mind that the early Saints didn’t have the defined procedures for the garment that have evolved down to our current status.”
Evolved? EVOLVED??!!!
I thought I was being heretical when I entertained the thought that an awful lot of Church practice looks like it consists of maybe 10% revelation, 90% making it up as we go along.
Kevin Barney talks about the bloodstain on the floor, scroll to response #20. http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/05/21/mha-springfield-2009-open-thread/
Thomas,
I don’t remember the context of any previous comment you made about evolution of Church practice, but, FWIW, I largely agree with you.
For example, I strongly doubt that the Church policy forbidding videotaping in chapels was based on a direct revelation. It’s more of a practical response to previous problems the Brethren have faced.
That is why we have “living” prophets!
Mike,
It wasn’t any comment on this board. Rather, it was comments in other settings that had people looking at me with arched eyebrows and kind of edging away sideways.
Does anyone have anything to say about my comments or is everyone stumped? I would have countered, “Jehovah must be Jesus, so the Messiah that Daniel and Ezekiel prophesy about cannot be Jesus, but the servant of Christ mentioned in D&C 113.” To which I would say, “But that contradicts the Revelation of John which says Jesus is that Messiah, besides Jesus himself (and his apostles) saying he is the Messiah and Son of God (annointed one).” Even if there were two messiahs, one to teach the law (Jesus of Judah) and the other to gather Israel (of Joseph), you still have the contradiction in John’s Revelation. My only conclusion is that Christianity is just a reformed Jewish religion. if I were to believe any, it would have to be Judaism! But I think that is just a reformed pagan religion (Abraham planting a grove to worship, for example. A grove is an idol! Mandrakes (which Rachel bought from Leah) are idols.) My only conclusion can be that religions are just man-made ways to enforce moral standards; a type of government.
Not stumped, onika, just haven’t had time to address it. If no one else picks it up I will discuss it with you next week.
Onika,
Since nobody else says anything about this, I read an interesting book about DSS. A chapter addresses the problem of two Messiahs apparent in them.
There is a high priest/Messiah (presumably Jesus could be inferred?) and a king/Messiah. The Qumranites combined both in one in their Teacher of Righteousness.
Apparently the High Priest/King dichotomy also is present in careful reading of some of the OT texts you cite, while the Revelation citation would be a way to affirm that Jesus was that Messiah-High Priest. Time references in scripture are too vague to make firm conclusions on when a specific prophesied event may be fulfilled, or if it is going to be fulfilled several times. I think this is by design, lest people think that it is a simple matter of deduction to come by definable dates or even years or centuries.
About Joseph Smith as the Holy Ghost supposition:
I wonder if many people realize how unfamiliar the vast majority of early saints were with Joseph Smith’s authentic quotes in general and the BoM in particular. It appears the early saints, including Apostles, mostly assumed that BoM’s mere existence as a proof of Joseph’s prophetic calling had been a sufficient fulfillment of its mission.
Joseph Smith used the KJV as his basis for expounding scripture, and seems to rarely be citing either the BoM or D&C. Am I completely in the woods about this? And is the saints’ lack of the study of those books a cause or effect of that?
I am of the view, that as humans, we are inherently incapable of grasping the Truth of eternities with our finite minds. Thus, for us there is merely an adequately close approximation of it, subject to change as we learn more (perhaps – hopefully – forgetting mistaken notions from the past in the process?).
onika said:
I don’t think that Joseph Smith ever considered himself acting as a king although he would have thought of himself as the root and rod of Jesse.
Right.
The “Root” in Isaiah 11:10 it the “root of Jesse.” The “Root” in Revelation 5 and 22 is “the root of David.” In these references Joseph Smith is designated as the root of Jesse and Jesus Christ is designated as the root of David. Not the same designation and not the same person.
Joshua, the High Priest, returned to Jerusalem with Zerubbabel to rebuild the Temple in the days of King Cyrus (Ezra 1:2-3). Zachariah prophesied in the days of Cyrus’ successor, King Darius (Zechariah 1:1). This vision of Zachariah was a vision of the Last Days (see Zachariah 2:10-3:10). Zachariah is symbolically using the names of the leaders who returned to Jerusalem in the days of Cyrus to represent the leaders who would return to Jerusalem in the Last Days. “The Branch” (Messiah, Jesus Christ) would oversee the construction of the Temple in “that day” (Zachariah 3:10). It is this scripture that has led most Jews to believe that the Temple in Jerusalem will not be rebuilt until the coming of the Messiah.
Again, this is a vision of John of the Temple of the Last Days. That the Apostles did not expect the temple to last is evidenced by the fact the Jesus told them it was to be destroyed (Matthew 24:2), and the fact that John made this prophecy while he was exiled on Patmos during the reign of Emperor Domitian, ten years AFTER the Second Temple was destroyed.
A Temple is symbolic of the Celestial Kingdom and contains the rungs of the ladder that help us, and are necessary for us, to get to the Celestial Kingdom (see Genesis 28:12, 17-19). When the earth becomes a Celestial Kingdom at the end of the Millennium there will be no need for a Temple. That Revelation 21:22 refers to this time period is confirmed in the subsequent verses of Revelation 21.
It was the Angel Gabriel (v 21) not Jehovah who referred to “Messiah the Prince” in Daniel 9:25. Exekiel 34:23-24 reads:
23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, [even] my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken [it].
I don’t see a problem with Jehovah referring to His future role as Jesus Christ in the third person. Especially when there is so much scriptural evidence that Jehovah would be and is Jesus Christ (sample – Isaiah 43:11, 45:21; John 1:1-4, 14; Mosiah 3:5, D&C 110:1-3).
Clearly Jehovah is the Messiah and is Jesus Christ.
Ezekiel mentions several different princes. Clearly, the prince he is speaking about in chapters 44 through 46 is not the Messiah but some other unidentified priesthood authority during the Millennium. Probably one of the two that Zachariah saw in his vision:
Zech 4:14
14 Then said he, These [are] the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
You would need to provide the references so that I can follow your reasoning.
That is a standard conclusion for an intelligent mind that lacks faith in God. However, to go beyond personal reasoning and conclusions to knowledge of the things of God requires another dimension. Knowledge of God can only come through personal revelation from God by faith and by prayer.
Theodore
Theodore wrote:
Caution is warranted on that claim:
Theodore, I thee adore :),
As far as I can tell, there is just one prince ruling over the people and further evidence that he is mortal is that he has sons and they receive an inheritance of land:
Ezekiel 46:
16 ¶ Thus saith the Lord God; If the prince give a gift unto any of his sons, the inheritance thereof shall be his sons’; it shall be their possession by inheritance.
17 But if he give a gift of his inheritance to one of his servants, then it shall be his to the year of liberty; after it shall return to the prince: but his inheritance shall be his sons’ for them.
I’m sure there were princes over each tribe, but just one from Judah ruled over Israel.
Paul says the root of Jesse is Christ:
Romans 15:
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
Rod refers to ruler:
Ezekiel 19:
11 And she had strong rods for the sceptres of them that bare rule, and her stature was exalted among the thick branches, and she appeared in her height with the multitude of her branches.
14 And fire is gone out of a rod of her branches, which hath devoured her fruit, so that she hath no strong rod to be a sceptre to rule. This is a lamentation, and shall be for a lamentation.
Rod is referring to Branch:
Isaiah 11:
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
The Branch is a descendant of David, son of Jesse, and he shall be a king/ruler:
Jeremiah 23:
5 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Also Jeremiah 33:15
Now I think I know what Malachi 4 means:
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
They won’t have an anointed king, messiah! That is the root and branch.
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Malachi 3:
7 ¶ Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
So, turning away from the fathers means turning away from the ordinances which were instituted with the fathers. They will turn their hearts back (return to the law) and that is how the Messiah gathers them back, and the temple is rebuilt to perform these ordinances (Malachi 3).
Ezekiel 11:
17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
In conclusion, either Jehovah is God and the Messiah is a mortal king, or Jehovah is Christ and the Messiah is a mortal king. He can’t be both God and king (as evidenced by the scriptures). The NT authors make Christ God and Messiah/king, probably because the gentiles were not familiar with the OT. Joseph being the messiah would make sense since the church expected the Millennium to come in his day.
Velska,
I was just wondering the same thing last night, whether or not Joseph quoted the book of Mormon very much. I will look into it.
Mike,
The caution is warranted, however, it is probable that Joseph’s sacred anointing as king would only have been effective after his resurrection, during the Millennium. In the summation remarks on the article you referenced it states, “The fact that Joseph’s prior anointing was referenced in his position as presiding authority over this body creates the confusion that he had been anointed King of the Earth. He was in fact only anointed as the presiding authority over an organization that was to prepare for the future reign of Jesus Christ during the Millennium.”
In Hyrum Andrus’ comment on this issue he writes:
So, I will stand by my statement that “I don’t think that Joseph Smith ever considered himself ACTING as a king.”
Theodore
onika
I agree. What I was referring to is that Ezekiel mentions several princes in his writings, some good, some bad (Ezekiel 21:25; 28:2; 30:13; 38:2-3; 39:1). In Ezekiel 34:24 and 37:25 he is referring to the Messiah (Jesus Christ, Jehovah, Lord). In Ezekiel 44 through 48 however, he is referring to a prince over Judah who is not the Lord:
onika said:
I think Paul got this one wrong.
I agree.
Yes, the rod in Isaiah 11:1 is referring to the Branch who is Jesus Christ.
Well, that could be one interpretation, that the wicked will not have Jesus as their king. However, I think the main interpretation is that the wicked will have no further posterity.
Why not?
When Jesus was brought before Pilate he was asked if He was a king. Jesus answered that his kingdom was not of this world (John 18:33-37). This is the mistake that the Jews at Jerusalem made. They were expecting a mortal king that would save them from the power of Rome. The throne of David rightfully belonged to Jesus by lineage but he would not ascend to the throne as king of Israel until after His resurrection.
Lol, you’re funny, Theodore: “I think Paul got this one wrong.”
I believe the Lord is speaking about Zedekiah (2 Chronicles 36:10-13):
Ezekiel 21:
25 ¶ And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,
26 Thus saith the Lord God; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.
27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.
God is saying he is taking away the authority of wicked King Zedekiah, and there will be no king with authority until Shilo come. Shilo is the Messiah, prince David, because he “whose right it is” is the one God anointed, and the Messiah is the anointed one. (Ez.34:23-24) All anointed kings descended from David are messiahs.
What we don’t agree on is whether the prince he talks about in Ezekiel 44-48 is THE Messiah of the last days. What evidence do you have that he isn’t?
To clarify further on Malachi, not having a king means they (the wicked Israelites) will not be a nation.
I thought you might bring up scriptures about the Lord being king. That’s true, he is King of kings, and his throne is in heaven. There are many references by David to the Lord as King, even though David was king at the time.
When God was king there were no other mortal/earthly kings, just priests:
1 Sam. 12:
12 And when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said unto me, Nay; but a king shall reign over us: when the Lord your God was your king.
13 Now therefore behold the king whom ye have chosen, and whom ye have desired! and, behold, the Lord hath set a king over you.
When the people wanted a mortal king, David and his heirs became the governor (political), and there were still priests (spiritual). The priests were responsible for making sure the people obeyed the law (commandments). The king dealt more with international affairs (wars, etc.).
1 Chron. 29:
20 ¶ And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the Lord your God. And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshiped the Lord, and the king.
22 And did eat and drink before the Lord on that day with great gladness. And they made Solomon the son of David king the second time, and anointed him unto the Lord to be the chief governor, and Zadok to be priest.
23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the Lord as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.
24 And all the princes, and the mighty men, and all the sons likewise of king David, submitted themselves unto Solomon the king.
Jesus is a spiritual leader/governor (maybe he was a Levite since his mother’s cousin’s husband was), but the Messiah had a political role, and that is why it talks so much about wars and defeating the heathen nations in the OT, and that was king David’s role.
After the heathen nations are defeated, the Lord will be king because the heathen will worship him and no other gods.
Notice they are still called heathen/gentiles.
Zech. 14:
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
16 ¶ And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Psalms 47:
7 For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding.
8 God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness.
Notice in Ezekiel the priests still function in their normals roles of making sacrifice daily and observing all the ordinances.
Theodore said:
“In Ezekiel 34:24 and 37:25 he is referring to the Messiah (Jesus Christ, Jehovah, Lord).”
After more thorough reading of the scriptures I have come to the conclusion that “my servant David a prince among them” is just a symbolic term for any descendant of David who is anointed king and is righteous. His name doesn’t have to be David. It is just the Lord’s way of keeping David on the throne.
Psalms 89:
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
Psalms 132:
10 For thy servant David’s sake turn not away the face of thine anointed.
11 The Lord hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.
12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.
Psalms 2:
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.
Theodore said:
“Clearly, the prince he [Ezekiel] is speaking about in chapters 44 through 46 is not the Messiah but some other unidentified priesthood authority during the Millennium. Probably one of the two that Zachariah saw in his vision…”
That’s right, he is speaking about Zerubbabel, the Messiah to build the temple. In other words all that was prophesied, except the battle with Gog of Magog, already happened.
There are two anointed ones, Zerubbabel (governor) and Joshua (High Priest):
Zechariah 4:7-13; Zechariah 6:11-13
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
The Levites will offer sacrifices continually:
Ezekiel 46:
5 Thus shall they prepare the lamb, and the meat offering, and the oil, every morning for a continual burnt offering.
Now, you may say these scriptures are not referring to the Last(Latter) Days. In my next post I will attempt to show that they do.
onika said:
You didn’t give any references for this so I don’t know why you have come to this conclusion. There is only one true Messiah, but all those who receive and honor the Priesthood of God are to become saviors, kings and priests.
onika said:
The prince of Ezekiel 44-48 sits and eats “bread before Jehovah” (Ezekiel 44:3) and “offers burnt offerings unto Jehovah” (Ezekiel 46:4). The Messiah is Jehovah! He doesn’t sit and eat bread before himself nor offer sacrifices to himself.
onika you said:
I don’t disagree that these scriptures refer to the Last Days. The sacrifice of the Savior ended sacrifice by the shedding of blood (Alma 34:13, 3 Nephi 9:19, however, D&C 13:1 and 124:39 leaves open the possibility that animal sacrifice may be reinstituted for a time near the end of the Last Days, prior to the Millennium. The other possibility is that these references, which were addressed to the Jews who lived the Law of Moses, are symbolic of the sacrifices of a broken hearts and a contrite spirit, and of the sacrifices made in the temple for our kindred dead.
Theodore said:
“This vision of Zachariah was a vision of the Last Days (see Zachariah 2:10-3:10). Zachariah is symbolically using the names of the leaders who returned to Jerusalem in the days of Cyrus to represent the leaders who would return to Jerusalem in the Last Days. “The Branch” (Messiah, Jesus Christ) would oversee the construction of the Temple in “that day” (Zachariah 3:10).”
The headings interpret it that way, but I believe Zechariah’s vision was not of Christ, but of Joshua, who would build the temple with Zerubbabel. Why? Because it says Joshua has filthy garments, the Lord causes his iniquity to pass from him, and the angel of the Lord protests, “If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house…” Zechariah 3:1-7. That doesn’t sound like a sinless Jesus.
God overthrows the kingdoms of the heathen during the time of Zerubbabel:
Haggai 2:
20 ¶ And again the word of the Lord came unto Haggai in the four and twentieth day of the month, saying,
21 Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth;
22 And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother.
23 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the Lord, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the Lord of hosts.
Jeremiah prophesied (note seventy years):
Jeremiah 25:
11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
12 ¶ And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the Lord, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.
Jeremiah 29:
10 ¶ For thus saith the Lord, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.
11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
14 And I will be found of you, saith the Lord: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the Lord; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.
Then in Zechariah 1 we read:
1 In the eighth month, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the Lord unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet, saying,
2 The Lord hath been sore displeased with your fathers.
3 Therefore say thou unto them, Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Turn ye unto me, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will turn unto you, saith the Lord of hosts.
12 ¶ Then the angel of the Lord answered and said, O Lord of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years?
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the Lord of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem.
Zechariah 4:
8 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto you.
Notice the Lord says, “I am returned unto Zion…” Zechariah 8:
The prophesies of Jeremiah were fulfilled:
2 Chronicles 36:
20 And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia:
21 To fulfil the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.
22 ¶ Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
23 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath the Lord God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? The Lord his God be with him, and let him go up.
Ezra 1:
1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The Lord God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
Ezra 3:
1 And when the seventh month was come, and the children of Israel were in the cities, the people gathered themselves together as one man to Jerusalem.
2 Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God.
8 ¶ Now in the second year of their coming unto the house of God at Jerusalem, in the second month, began Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and the remnant of their brethren the priests and the Levites, and all they that were come out of the captivity unto Jerusalem; and appointed the Levites, from twenty years old and upward, to set forward the work of the house of the Lord.
10 And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the Lord, they set the priests in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites the sons of Asaph with cymbals, to praise the Lord, after the ordinance of David king of Israel.
12 But many of the priests and Levites and chief of the fathers, who were ancient men, that had seen the first house, when the foundation of this house was laid before their eyes, wept with a loud voice; and many shouted aloud for joy:
The angel shows Ezekiel the temple they are to build when they return to Jerusalem:
Ezekiel 43:4-7
7 ¶ And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile…
So, the temple where the priest will make continual offerings, is where the Lord will dwell forever.
The Lord rehearses how the house of Israel was wicked, they deserved to be punished, and now he is ready to forgive:
Ezekiel 36:16-28; Ezekiel 20:3-42; Ezekiel 37:21-28; Ezekiel 28:25,26; Ezekiel 16:45-62; Amos 9:8-15
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
The Lord says, “There shall none of my words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done…”
Ezekiel 11:
17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
24 ¶ Afterwards the spirit took me up, and brought me in a vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea, to them of the captivity. So the vision that I had seen went up from me.
25 Then I spake unto them of the captivity all the things that the Lord had shewed me.
Ezekiel 12:
27 Son of man, behold, they of the house of Israel say, The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off.
28 Therefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; There shall none of my words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done, saith the Lord God.
The second temple is the temple prophesied to be built after the gathering, and the gathering happened after Babylon was defeated and the captives were released:
Jeremiah 50:
1 The word that the Lord spake against Babylon and against the land of the Chaldeans by Jeremiah the prophet.
2 Declare ye among the nations, and publish, and set up a standard; publish, and conceal not: say, Babylon is taken, Bel is confounded, Merodach is broken in pieces; her idols are confounded, her images are broken in pieces.
3 For out of the north there cometh up a nation against her, which shall make her land desolate, and none shall dwell therein: they shall remove, they shall depart, both man and beast.
4 ¶ In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek the Lord their God.
5 They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the Lord in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten.
17 ¶ Israel is a scattered sheep; the lions have driven him away: first the king of Assyria hath devoured him; and last this Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon hath broken his bones.
18 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will punish the king of Babylon and his land, as I have punished the king of Assyria.
19 And I will bring Israel again to his habitation, and he shall feed on Carmel and Bashan, and his soul shall be satisfied upon mount Ephraim and Gilead.
20 In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.
28 The voice of them that flee and escape out of the land of Babylon, to declare in Zion the vengeance of the Lord our God, the vengeance of his temple.
Jeremiah 51:
10 The Lord hath brought forth our righteousness: come, and let us declare in Zion the work of the Lord our God.
11 Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the Lord hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the Lord, the vengeance of his temple.
Isaiah 44:
28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
One reason these scriptures are misunderstood is because we have a “presentist” view of the term “Latter Days”. The Latter Days were in the time of Nebuchadnezzar:
Daniel 2:
28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;
36 ¶ This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
Everything that happened in the king’s dream was in the latter days, and the first thing that happened was the overthrow of his kingdom. Another example is the return of the children of Israel from Babylon to Jerusalem was considered in the latter days:
Hosea 3:
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the clatter days.
When they returned from Babylon they did get a king and make sacrifices, so they have already been gathered. They just got scattered and their temple destroyed again, and there are no contemporary prophesies about that so people just keep repeating the same old prophesies that were already fulfilled…
In my next post I will try to explain why there is so much confusion on this.
More evidence that the prophesied temple was the second temple:
Ezekiel 44:
9 ¶ Thus saith the Lord God; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.
Theodore said, “You didn’t give any references for this so I don’t know why you have come to this conclusion. ”
Because “messiah” means anointed one and the king and high priest both were always anointed. The Messiah you keep referring to is the one in Daniel, which the Revelation of John refers to.
In Ezekiel 37 the Lord says Israel will be gathered and he will make an everlasting covenant with them. Then after they have lived “many days” in the land that he gave his servant Jacob, Gog of Magog will come with his heathen allies and try to destroy Israel, but they will fail. (Ezekiel 38-39)This is to show the heathen who the true God is.
This didn’t happen, so someone added to the prophesies of Daniel to explain things. I’ll later show why I think this.
Daniel was a prince of Israel and, being educated, the king wanted him and others of the king of Judah’s seed to learn his language and serve him.
God gave King Nebuchadnezzar a dream that affected him directly. Note that God did not give Daniel the dream and tell him to prophesy to the king. God gave Daniel the interpretation of King Nebuchadnezzar’s dream so the king could understand the message and know that Daniel’s God was the true God. This was a message for King Nebuchadnezzar.
Daniel 2:
30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king [Aramaic: in order that the interpretation may be made known to the king], and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.
What was the result of the king gaining this knowledge? The king praised Daniel’s God to all the world:
1 Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you.
2 I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that the high God hath wrought toward me.
34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.
37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
When Belshazzar, King Nebuchadnezzar’s son, became king, he saw a hand, sent from God, writing on the wall, and became troubled wanting to know the interpretation of the writing:
Daniel 5:
10 ¶ Now the queen, by reason of the words of the king and his lords, came into the banquet house: and the queen spake and said, O king, live for ever: let not thy thoughts trouble thee, nor let thy countenance be changed:
11 There is a man in thy kingdom, in whom is the spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of thy father light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, was found in him; whom the king Nebuchadnezzar thy father, the king, I say, thy father, made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers;
12 Forasmuch as an excellent spirit, and knowledge, and understanding, interpreting of dreams, and shewing of hard sentences, and dissolving of doubts, were found in the same Daniel, whom the king named Belteshazzar: now let Daniel be called, and he will shew the interpretation.
13 Then was Daniel brought in before the king. And the king spake and said unto Daniel, Art thou that Daniel, which art of the children of the captivity of Judah, whom the king my father brought out of Jewry?
14 I have even heard of thee, that the spirit of the gods is in thee, and that light and understanding and excellent wisdom is found in thee.
Again a message is sent directly to the king, for the king, from God. Notice, Belshazzar didn’t know Daniel before. The message was that his kingdom would be taken from him because drank from the vessels of the temple and praised the idols.
Daniel 5:
28 PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.
30 ¶ In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain.
31 And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.
(Belshazzar must have been a vassal of Cyrus.)
The reason I point out these verses is to show how God worked through Daniel and the relationship Daniel had with each king.
In chapter 6 Darius becomes king, favors Daniel, and makes him first president over the 120 princes.
Then in chapter 7, the story suddenly reverts back to the time of king Belshazzar! In the first year, Daniel has a dream for his own PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE (not to interpret for the king), when earlier he said, “…this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living…”! This is a very different scenario. Then in the third year, Daniel has another vision, and at the end he says:
Daniel 8:
27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king’s business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.
How did he do the king’s business when the king didn’t even know him??
Another clue that this part of the record was added later is that it is so similar to the writings in the book of Enoch when it talks about the Ancient of Days, and compares the kingdoms to animals. Remember, Cyrus was the first Zoroastrian king of Persia, so his religion, which was monotheistic, had a big influence on Abrahamic religions. The Israelites may originally have had more of a reformed Egyptian religion. Then when the Israelites were dominated by the Babylonians, Assyrians, and Persians, their religion evolved, and that’s where they got a lot of their stories in Genesis.
onika you said:
No, it isn’t. I must not of been clear on what I meant. I don’t think that either Joshua nor Zerubbabel of the last Days is Jesus Christ. Joshua of the Last Days is shown “the Branch” but is not himself “the Branch.” I am quite sure that Joshua and Zerubbabel of the Last Days that Zechariah described in Zech 3&4 are the same prophets that John described in Revelation 11:3-12 (see also D&C 77:15; 2 Nephi 8:17-20; Daniel 12:5; Matthew 20:21-22).
The ancient Hebrew prophets frequently used events of their day as a type for events that are to happen in the Last Days. They also frequently switched from their present to the future very quickly without warning, so sometimes it is difficult to differentiate. The prophets wrote by the Spirit of God so sometimes their meanings can only be deciphered by the Spirit of God. Sometimes it takes a prophet to correctly understand a prophet. This is by design, and it is the same reason that Jesus spoke in parables.
Theodore,
What I thought you were saying was that anointing Joshua and Zerubbabel was a prophecy, symbolic of Jesus being anointed in the future. I was trying to point out that it wasn’t a prophecy of Jesus, but applied directly to them.
You are saying Joshua was anointed, but also shown the future Branch:
8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
That is possible, but I also interpreted it to be referring to Zerubbabel.
Theodore, you said, “I am quite sure that Joshua and Zerubbabel of the Last Days that Zechariah described in Zech 3&4 are the same prophets that John described in Revelation 11:3-12…”
I agree that is who John is talking about, so the anointing of Joshua and Zerubbabel was a prophecy of these two prophets in Revelation 11, even though Joshua and Zerubbabel were not prophets.
I know everyone thinks the prophesies have dual meanings, but I was trying to show they don’t. What makes you think they do? Here’s one example:
Jeremiah 25:11-12, 29:10 talks about the Lord’s people being in captivity for seventy years and then returning
to the land of their inheritance. They did, but they never were really completely a free and independent nation; they were always subject to some other nation. “Daniel” makes the explanation that they would be in captivity, not seventy years, but seventy weeks of years, so 490 yrs.
Daniel 9:
2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
That would make it around the time of Christ’s mortal ministry, when everyone was looking for THE Messiah. The Messiah was supposed to die, resurrect, and make atonement (cleanse the land) by destroying the wicked and subduing the heathen nations. Jesus didn’t do that so John the Revelator makes his explanation of Daniel and Babylon is the world, not just the country.
But the Lord himself said they had accomplished their seventy years of bondage:
Zechariah 7:
4 ¶ Then came the word of the Lord of hosts unto me, saying,
5 Speak unto all the people of the land, and to the priests, saying, When ye fasted and mourned in the fifth and seventh month, even those seventy years, did ye at all
fast unto me, even to me?
3 Thus saith the Lord; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain.
He is returned unto Zion because they suffered the penalty of seventy years captivity.
onika, you said:
Jeremiah 25 is a good example of what I was referring to. Verses 1 to 14 were the prophesies of the immediate destruction of Jerusalem, the return of the exiles and the fall of ancient Babylon. The fall of Babylon is the trigger point for the prophecy to fast-forward to the Last Days and the destruction of the world, or modern day Babylon. This runs from verse 15 to the end of chapter 25. Chapter 26 then reverts back to Jeremiah’s day. Chapters 30 & 31 again fast-forward to the Last Days.
I agree with you to this point.
Here again you are making the same mistake that the Jews at Jerusalem made, and continue to do so. The atonement was not to cleanse the land but to cleanse the people. The cleansing of the land and the destruction of the wicked etc, was to happen in the Latter Days. In Daniel chapter ten the Lord appears to Daniel and says, “Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people IN THE LATTER DAYS: for yet the vision is for many days (Dan 10:14).
John saw the same vision of the Latter Days as did Daniel, as did Isaiah, and Nephi and Mormon and Moroni and many other prophets, including Jesus Christ (see Matthew 24). The visions are all consistent, some emphasizing certain things and some emphasizing other details. John was commissioned to write much of the vision (see 1 Nephi 14, especially v 19-30; also Ether 4:16). However, the fullness of the vision of the last days and through to the end of the world was sealed, as Nephi was told, and is not available to us as yet.
Again, the vision has fast-forwarded to the Last Days. This is evidenced by the fact that Jehovah has not yet dwelt in the midst of Jerusalem nor has Jerusalem become a city of truth; and the mountain of the lord of hosts.
onika, you have a keen intellect and are an ardent student of the scriptures. However you approach these studies as if there is no God, and prophets write from their own intellects and not from visions and dictations from God. You seem to assume that no prophet can know the details of the future and that they just make up things from their own imaginations.
The problem with your approach is that there is a God, and he does speak to prophets and give them revelations concerning the future, of which He knows every detail. That being the case, your conclusions will frequently be in error because your basic premise is in error.
If you would add prayer to your studies it would improve your understanding of the scriptures many fold. (Just a suggestion, not a criticism)
Theodore
Theodore,
You’re very sweet to put up with me.
I don’t see how the rest of Jer. 25 is evidence of something happening 2000 yrs. into the future. It is just saying that after the heathen have done God’s will in punishing God’s people, he will now punish the heathen to show them who the true God is (Jer. 25:6-8)(Daniel 9:18-19).
After Nebuchadnezzar’s invasion of Judah the “remnant” scattered to surrounding nations, and those nations took advantage of them:
Jer. 25:
14 For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands.
Egypt is one of the nations the Lord is talking about in Jeremiah 25:18-25 who served themselves of the Jews.
Jeremiah tells the people who were left in Judah (the remnant) that if they stay and serve King Nebuchadnezzar they will be spared, but if they go to Egypt they will die (Jer. 42-44).
In Joel 3 the Lord says that after his people have returned to Jerusalem (after the seventy years) the heathen nations will gather in an attempt to overcome them:
1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
He specifically mentions Egypt as one of the nations who will be punished for their treatment of the Jews after they fled to Egypt:
19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
So, God is going to punish Egypt for their treatment of the Jews 2000 yrs. ago!
You mentioned ch. 30 & 31 being about the Last Days (2000 yrs. later). Still it appears to me these verses are not about the distant future. It describes Israel and Judah as being in physical (not spiritual) captivity:
Jeremiah 30;
3 For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the Lord: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
Here he says Jacob’s captors were stronger than he, meaning physical force:
Jeremiah 31:
11 For the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.
In Isaiah it says the Lord gave Egypt for Israel’s ransom, because Nebuchadnezzar smote Egypt. (Isaiah 43:3)(Ezekiel 30:10, 25)
Then he talks about making a covenant with Israel which is
more enduring than the first covenant he made when he brought them out of Egypt. If this were about the future 2000 yrs or even 490 yrs (like Paul claims) that would mean there was no new covenant made with Israel when they built the second temple. But there must have been since it was a commandment, so these verses must be referring to the covenant he made when they were released from the nation Babylon to build the second temple:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
You mentioned all these things in Daniel are to happen in the Latter Days, but as I tried to explain in a previous post (I don’t know how to format the text, and I know I post a lot of scripture so maybe you didn’t see it) Latter Days is a relative statement or “presentist”. I gave the example of the dream of king Nebuchadnezzar. The downfall of his kingdom was considered in the latter days. Peter considered his days the last days and quotes Joel as if that prophecy were referring to Peter’s time:
Acts 2:
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Theodore, you said: Again, the vision has fast-forwarded to the Last Days. This is evidenced by the fact that Jehovah has not yet dwelt in the midst of Jerusalem nor has Jerusalem become a city of truth; and the mountain of the lord of hosts.
The Lord dwelling in Jerusalem in the OT was not of a resurrected being living in the city; it meant his spirit would dwell there:
Joel 2:
26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
The people know he dwells there because they are prosperous, not because they see him there physically.
I don’t think the prophets made up things, but reported past events and explained them by saying the people were wicked. For example, the temple building was halted in the second year of Darius. Suddenly in the text, Daniel is confessing the sins of the people one year before the halting of the building. He then receives the vision that the Messiah won’t come for 400+ years from the decree to build the temple. So, anyone asking why the building of the temple was halted when it was God’s decree, has an explanation.
The person that wrote this must have been living around the same time as the book of Enoch and other Texts in the dead sea scrolls were written, 200-150 B.C. (I showed previously why I didn’t think the book of Daniel was written by one person.)
All through the OT the explanation for the scattering of Israel is their worshiping idols and commiting other sins such as passing their children through the fire. This is why they were cursed:
Daniel 9:
11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.
What did they do to deserve to be cursed again, which they must be if their temple was destroyed again! They weren’t worshiping idols, etc. In fact they were very strict about the law. Speaking of atonement, they believed if they allowed anyone to sin and didn’t punish them according to the law, the whole nation would suffer the wrath of God. Punishing the wicked was making atonement. When Jesus broke the Sabbath he was threatening the safety and security of their nation. Now Christians say the Jews were cursed for demanding capital punishment of Jesus, when it was according to the law of Moses.
If the OT is talking about the Israelites being cursed 2000 yrs. in the future, why doesn’t it say they were cursed because they killed God in the flesh?
onika, you said:
As I previously mentioned Jeremiah 25:1-14 is about Jeremiah’s day and shortly thereafter. Verse 15 begins, “For thus saith the Lord,” and He speaks of the fury that will descend upon “all nations.” He then lists all of the nations, as they were known by in their day, and even “the Kings of the isles which are beyond the sea.” (v22 – the Americas) and adds, “AND ALL THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD, WHICH ARE UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH” (v26). Then the Lord proceeds to explain what is going to happen to them:
This is obviously the destruction of the wicked in the Last Days. It has never happened before except in the Great Flood. There are dozens more references confirming the same destruction in the Last Days.
Look at the last verses of Joel chapter 2:
The “great and terrible day” of the coming of the Lord in the Last Days. Then, Joel 3 that you cited begins:
It is quite clear that Joel is speaking of the Last Days.
Not for their treatment of the Jews 2000 years ago, but for their treatment of the Jews in the Last Days. The Last Days are the total subject of Joel’s prophecy. I don’t think that I need to get into a discussion with you about the treatment of the Jews by the Egyptians and the Arabs in our day. And it isn’t over yet.
Has Judah not been in captivity for the past several hundred years? Did the Lord not break the yoke of their oppressors and bring them back to the land the He gave to their fathers? Are we not seeing exact fulfillment of these prophesies in our day? Note the last verse of Jeremiah 30, “IN THE LATTER DAYS…”
“Because Nebuchadnezzar smote Egypt” is your unfounded assumption, it doesn’t come from Isaiah. Isaiah in fact explains what 43:3 meant in 45:14:
This hasn’t happened yet.
A covenant with the Lord is a sacred agreement between the Lord and his people but it is not a commandment. One is free to enter into the covenant or not. The Jews in Babylon, and when they returned to Israel, were still under the covenant the Lord made with them at Sinai. You cited Jeremiah 31:32-33, but you left out verses 34 &35:
Again, it hasn’t happened yet. It is in process but we are not there yet.
Not so, you need to read the vision again. The vision described many subsequent kingdoms.
Peter may have thought they were in the last days but Jesus had given His Apostles many signs to watch for in Matthew 24 that were yet in the future:
As explained above, the book of Joel is all about the Latter Days and the beginning of the Millennium when the Lord will dwell personally upon the earth.
D&C 29:11 “For I will reveal myself from heaven with power and great glory, with all the hosts thereof, and dwell in righteousness with men on earth a thousand years, and the wicked shall not stand.” (see also Moses 7:63-64)
The Jews at Jerusalem condemned their Jehovah to death. They condemned Him to death for claiming that He was the Son of God. It would have been blasphemy, and punishable by death, if He had not been the Son of God. But the Sanhedrin never even investigated that possibility. They hated Him and were simply looking for a way to kill Him.
Because they are not. That is a fallacy promoted by Satan. Satan has been trying to destroy all of the Jews since Haman had King Ahasuerus set aside a day when all of the Jews in the empire would be killed. This was hundreds of years before a few Jews in Jerusalem condemned Jesus to death. Satan if afraid of the Jews because he knows they will eventually cause his downfall.
Theodore
Theodore, I admire your gumption and vigor:)
You said:
“Because Nebuchadnezzar smote Egypt” is your unfounded assumption, it doesn’t come from Isaiah. Isaiah in fact explains what 43:3 meant in 45:14:
If you read in Ezekiel it is more clear; Egypt was attacked by Nebuchadnezzar:
Ezekiel 30:
10 Thus saith the Lord God; I will also make the multitude of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon.
25 But I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and the arms of Pharaoh shall fall down; and they shall know that I am the Lord, when I shall put my sword into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall stretch it out upon the land of Egypt.
26 And I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and disperse them among the countries; and they shall know that I am the Lord.
What Isaiah is referring to is when Persia conquered Egypt. (Thanks for correcting me.) They became a very weak nation after that.
Isaiah 45:
1 Thus saith the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
You think the Jews were in captivity before moving to the land of Israel? I strongly disagree! They have been as free as any other people, especially the ones living in America. We all pay taxes! If not having your own nation means being in captivity,ok, but they haven’t been slaves to other nations.
Theodore:
He then lists all of the nations, as they were known by in their day, and even “the Kings of the isles which are beyond the sea.” (v22 – the Americas) and adds, “AND ALL THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD, WHICH ARE UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH” (v26).
This is talking about the isles beyond the Mediterranean Sea. The nations upon the face of the earth are the ones on the old continent, not the new.
Now, I do agree the battle of Gog hasn’t happened, but maybe that was a battle expected to happen, especially if it would keep the people in line so they could get the Lord’s protection when it happened (sometime after Zion is established).
Now Theodore, if you think Daniel’s prophecy about the seventy weeks of years and the Messiah being cut off is about Christ being crucified, then everything should be done shouldn’t it?
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
onika:
Latter Days is a relative statement or “presentist”. I gave the example of the dream of king Nebuchadnezzar. The downfall of his kingdom was considered in the latter days.
Theodore:
Not so, you need to read the vision again. The vision described many subsequent kingdoms.
Daniel 2:28
28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be IN THE LATTER DAYS…
… God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass HEREAFTER: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
Yes, his nation fell AFTER he had the dream, and the dream was about many nations taking over and falling, starting with his in the LATTER DAYS.
onika,
I am aware that Nebuchadnezzar defeated the Egyptians but I disagree your assumption that it was because of that battle that Isaiah said, “the Lord gave Egypt for Israel’s ransom.” Isaiah also included Ethiopia and Seba (Southern Arabia) in the prophecy and then explained that the Egyptians and the Ethiopians and the Sabeans would come to Israel and make supplication to Israel saying, “Surely God is in thee; and there is none else” (Isa 45:14). This obviously has nothing to do with Egypt’s defeat by Nebuchadnezzar because these countries never made obeisance to Israel. This event in Isaiah appears to be the same event at the beginning of the Millennium that is described in the last chapter of Zechariah:
I think that the Jews living during the Spanish Inquisition, the Pale of Russia, the Ghettos of Europe, and in Germany during the Nazi reign, would strongly disagree with you. It was only recently, with the fall of the Soviet Union, that the Jews of Russia were free to go to Israel.
Here is an example of how your perspective boxes you in to a restricted view and limits your understanding of the scriptures. It was the Lord that was speaking and referring to “all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth” (Jeremiah 25:26). Surely God’s knowledge of the world is not limited to the old continent.
However, if you don’t believe that there is a God who speaks to his prophets and gives them visions of the future then how do you account for the words, “Thus saith the Lord.” All of the prophets are then just literate learned liars.
Christ being crucified wasn’t the end. His atonement and resurrection was the beginning of the redemption of all mankind. (Daniel 9:26-27 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by Titus in 70 AD)
onika, how could the kingdom of Nebuchadnezzar be in the Latter Days if all the described successions of kingdoms came after him? The Latter Days are the Last Days. No more earthly kingdoms after the Last Days. The fulfillment of the dream would be in the Latter Days. The vision of the establishment of the Kingdom of God on the earth in the Latter Days was the whole purpose of the dream.
onika, I don’t think that your efforts to reinterpret the scriptures with the exclusion of God is working for you. And there is no way that it can because the scriptures are all about God and are mostly from God. Trying to take God out of the scriptures is like trying to take oxygen out of the atmosphere. Everything dies.
I don’t see where continuing this thread will be of further value to either of us, unless of course you have a sincere question about the scriptures that I could help you with. I have enjoyed our discussion and wish you all the best. You, of course may have the last word if you so wish.
Theodore
Theodore, I am coming from the perspective that the prophets are not truly prophesying. This doesn’t mean they are liars. They believed they were speaking for God.
The kingdom of God which was established in the Last Days was supposed to be after the second temple was built. It just didn’t pan out exactly as expected. I need to find in the scriptures prophecy of some huge gap of 2000 yrs from the time the temple was destroyed until Zion is established forever. I will reread everything to make sure of my conclusions though, in case I’m wrong. Thanks!
Theodore:
Isaiah also included Ethiopia and Seba (Southern Arabia) in the prophecy and then explained that the Egyptians and the Ethiopians and the Sabeans would come to Israel and make supplication to Israel saying, “Surely God is in thee; and there is none else”
I believe he was saying they would make supplication to Cyrus, his anointed.
13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the Lord of hosts.
14 Thus saith the Lord, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.
I’ll stop now.
Theodore,
I have to add, my questions have been sincere; I was trying to find holes in my arguments. I have to have a reason to have faith in something, and not just because someone tells me to. That is the purpose of understanding the scriptures–to develop faith if it is warranted. This discussion has been of immense value to me in helping me to clarify my thoughts. I have learned more through this than I did on my own. Thank you very much.
Namaste,
Onika
Onika Shalom
It is interesting that the scripture you seek is the vision of Daniel we were discussing:
The Babylonian Empire was the head of gold.
What empire followed the Babylonian Empire?
The breast and his arms of silver represented the Persian Empire.
What empire followed the Persian Empire?
The belly and thighs of brass was the Macedonian Empire that was extended under Alexander to cover the former Persian Empire. The combination of the belly and thighs is symbolic of the split in the Macedonian Empire shortly after the death of Alexander.
What empire followed and subdued the Macedonian Empire?
The legs of iron was the Roman Empire.
Now it is down to the time of the destruction of the Second Temple.
What kingdoms did the Roman Empire splinter into?
From the two feet of the Western and Eastern Roman Empires the toes splintered into the kingdoms of Europe. Some were strong, some weak and broken, but for some reason they did not cleave together as the former Empires had done.
The detail in the symbolism of the vision is unmistakable in its fulfillment of the succession of empires and kingdoms from Nebuchadnezzar to the Last Days. In 1830 God set up His kingdom on the earth and it shall never be destroyed.
The exact fulfillment over a period of 2200 years of Daniel’s prophetic interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream is powerful evidence that there is a God, who does know the future, and who does reveal it to His prophets.
I hope this helps,
Theodore
onika and Theodore,
Your discussion is very interesting, but it’s completely off the topic of this post. I’d appreciate it if you could close it now.
If you’d like to continue the conversation in private, I’d be happy to send your email addresses to each other.
That would be OK.
That is fine with me. Thanks Theodore, this explanation does help a lot.