This week: Lesson 30, “The Prisoners Shall Go Free” (D&C 2; 124:25–55; 127; 128; JS—H 1:36–39).
Subjects covered: Priesthood ordinances for the dead; baptism for the dead; the building of the Nauvoo Temple.
Potential issues:
- Chance for repentance after death? (D&C contradicts the Book of Mormon.)
- Heathen saved without baptism. (D&C contradicts the Book of Mormon.)
- Baptism for the dead.
- Why is baptism for the dead not taught in the Book of Mormon?
- Symbols on the Nauvoo Temple.
- Do temples always face east?
- Temple obsolete after Christ.
If you can think of any other issues from this week’s lesson, please comment below so we can add more links.
PLEASE NOTE: This information is a preparatory resource for gospel doctrine teachers to help them formulate answers to questions that might arise during their class. It is not in any way a substitute for the Gospel Doctrine manual, nor should instructors make these topics the focus of class instruction. This information is provided with the understanding that it is an additional resource only.
Saints were excused from building a temple in Missouri
Other churches teach that we are born sinners, guilty, etc. and so little children need baptism; but even though our church teaches little children cannot sin and are whole and therefore don’t need baptism, the reason they are considered whole and cannot sin, and why they don’t need baptism is because Christ’s atonement is effective for them and others who die without the law. But if you look at it conversely, if Christ had not atoned for them they would be lost; why? Because they ARE born guilty sinners! This also eliminates the need for preaching to the dead or baptism for the dead, which doctrine is NOT taught in the Book of Mormon.
Mosiah 3:
11 For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned.
16 And even if it were possible that little children could sin they could not be saved; but I say unto you they are blessed; for behold, as in Adam, or by nature, they fall, even so the blood of Christ atoneth for their sins.
Moses 6:
54 Hence came the saying abroad among the people, that the Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world.
55 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.
D&C 93:
38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.
The article “Temple obsolete after Christ” uses the example of Paul offering sacrifice in the temple to show that temples were still used after Christ’s ascension. But the reason he did was because he was counseled to for his safety from the multitude that was about to come, since they had heard he was preaching against the law of Moses and circumcision. (Acts 21:18-26)
Acts 21:
26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,
28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
29 (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)
30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.
I believe the early Christians did use the temple as long as they could until it was obvious to the Jews they were not worthy to enter, since they were bringing in uncircumcised Gentiles, etc.
Ezekiel 44:
9 ¶ Thus saith the Lord God; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.
Paul taught that like the tabernacle/temple is symbolic of the creation of the earth, and the priest entering the holy of holies was symbolic of entering heaven heaven/God’s throne, so too was the sprinkled blood from sacrificed animals symbolic of purging of sins (Hebrews 9:22-24). The real purging of the real earth was done by Christ’s blood, and he was then able to enter the real heaven/throne to make intercession. This is why temples were no longer needed (“God dwelleth not in temples made of hands” Acts 7: 47-50; Acts 17: 24).
He taught temples were no longer needed because the Gentiles/uncircumcised could not enter the temple.
Are you saying that Paul was a sell-out?
I’m saying he was a heretic. He made up his own religion. He got rid of circumcision to attract the Gentiles because the Jews rejected him. They weren’t allowed to use the Jewish temple, so he said they didn’t need temples.
Christ didn’t change the Jewish law. Christ didn’t say we don’t need to be circumcised. I know the book of Thomas has him saying that, but I believe that was written long after Christ, and he didn’t really say that. Why? Because if he had there would not have been the controversy among the apostles over circumcision.
The Jews believe that God is using Christianity to bring the Gentiles to Judaism, by the way.
onika,
Just to clarify where you’re coming from, do you believe the decision of the Jerusalem council in Acts 15 was in error?
Mike,
As far as I can tell it is in error. I wrote a blog about the contradictions of the OT and NT.http://onikarenee.wordpress.com/
I would like to get feedback to see if I am wrong somewhere.
Acts 15 quotes this scripture:
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
This doesn’t prove they don’t need to obey the law of Moses or circumcision. Call me a Pharisee.. I wonder if Jesus was a Pharisee because they called him Rabbi, and he didn’t believe in eye for an eye like the Saducees. Jesus may have been a heretic since he broke the Sabbath. I think his answer sounded very presumptuous as well as his response about his mother and brother.
I should probably explain. this scripture is referring to the last days:
Ezekiel 44:
9 ¶ Thus saith the Lord God; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.
Referring to Heathen saved without baptism :
Moroni 8:
22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—
23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.
Assuming those “without the law” are just those who don’t know right from wrong (even though the cross reference to Acts 17:30 is about the Gentiles who worshiped idols) does this mean those who have died before the age of eight do not have baptisms performed on their behalf in the temple?
More on Heathen saved without baptism: The apology for the following scripture takes the scripture out of context.
If you add vs. 23, 24, and 27 it is clear the law he is talking about is not just living a good life but being baptised! He is saying that those who are not taught the law of baptism (those who do not have ALL the commandments “like unto us”) are not condemned. And Moroni 8 says those who are not condemned don’t need to repent or be baptised.
2 Nephi 9:
23 And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.
24 And if they will not repent and believe in his name, and be baptized in his name, and endure to the end, they must be damned; for the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has spoken it.
25 Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him.
26 For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; and they are restored to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel.
27 But wo unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state!
Clearly there is a contradiction and it explains why baptism for the dead is not taught in the Book of Mormon, because they’re already saved. In any case, some get automatically saved and some don’t, which doesn’t seem fair if we’re all to be tested.
This is the final proof:
D&C 137:
5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;
6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.
7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;
9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.
10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.
This revelation came to him Jan.21, 1836., before any revelations that I’m aware of about baptism for the dead:
D&C 124 Jan. 19, 1841
D&C 127 Sept. 1, 1842
D&C 128 Sept.6, 1842
“You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.”–Morpheus
It’s kind of fascinating trying to figure out exactly where you are coming from onika.
Christian? Mormon? Ex-Mormon? Jewish?
Very irritating trying to find the right label…
How about searching.
Really Seth, I’m not trying to take sides, I’m just trying to be objective and find the truth.
onika said,
You have given several good quotes on this subject but you have missed something in your reasoning. The scriptures you cited make it clear that little children cannot sin. However, because of the fall of Adam they are born into a fallen world. They themselves have not sinned but they have entered a sinful world from which they could not be rescued were it not for the atoning sacrifice of the Savior for the original sin of Adam and Eve which caused the fall.
I don’t follow your reasoning. It doesn’t eliminate the need to preach the gospel to all the dead, including dead children. They also need to know the gospel in order to progress even if they have no need to repent. The atonement of Christ is effective for Adam and Eve who repented, for little children who need no repentance, those who died without law, and for all others who repent. All need to be baptized except little children who die before the age of accountability, and any others who are not mentally accountable. Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ all will be redeemed from physical death. All will be resurrected. Being redeemed from spiritual death, which is separation from God, requires repentance and baptism for all except those not accountable.
Theodore,
I don’t believe we are born guilty, but the scripture sounds like it is saying that. It says children can’t sin, but they are fallen and would be lost without the atonement. I have thought it may mean they are fallen in the sense that they are mortal and would not resurrect without the atonement/redemption of Jesus, but it seems they automatically unworthy to be in God’s presence because they have been in a mortal body.
Moses 6:
54 Hence came the saying abroad among the people, that the Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world.
In other words if it weren’t for the atonement, the sins of the parents could be answered upon the heads of the children!
D&C 93:
38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.
If it weren’t for God having redeemed man from the fall, men would not be innocent before God in their infant state!
Moroni 8:
8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin;
wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.
They don’t have to be circumcised any more now that Christ has taken away the curse. Before Christ, if they were not circumcised they would not be whole. The reason little children are not capable of committing sin is because they are not held accountable or condemned, because of Christ. Their sins fall into the unintentional category. But even a new born baby who hasn’t done an unintentional sin would not be whole without circumcision or the atonement!
D&C 74:
5 Wherefore, for this cause the apostle wrote unto the church, giving unto them a commandment, not of the Lord, but of himself, that a believer should not be united to an unbeliever; except the law of Moses should be done away among them,
6 That their children might remain without circumcision; and that the tradition might be done away, which saith that little children are unholy; for it was had among the Jews;
7 But little children are holy, being sanctified through the atonement of Jesus Christ; and this is what the scriptures mean.
Little children would be unholy without being sanctified through the atonement. They would be considered sinners without the atonement.
Re preaching and baptism for the dead:
If those who die without the law includes the heathen among those who are saved automatically by Christ’s atonement(and I think I showed that in my later post) then there would be no need for preaching/baptism for the dead. Like D&C 137 says,
7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;
9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.
That explains why there is no mention of it in the Book of Mormon.
Ezekiel 44:
9 ¶ Thus saith the Lord God; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.
Now who are you going to believe, Ezekiel or the apostles? Which one is right? I’ll tell you how you can know which one is right: Ezekiel said, “Thus saith the Lord God”, but the apostles decided circumcision wasn’t necessary after using their rational minds and reasoning among themselves (Acts 15).
onika said,
Notice in context that it was referring to the “original sin” of Adam and Eve which brought about the fall. If it were not for the atonement no one could be saved or redeemed from the fall, not even innocent little children.
No, that is not the way it reads. It says that because of the redemption, men became as they were in their infant state, that is, innocent before God.
Nope. The scripture makes it clear that “little children are whole” and the “whole need no physician.” They are incapable of committing sin, period. Christ does not atone for their sins because they are incapable of committing sin.
“Wherefore the CURSE OF ADAM is taken away from them in me.” Again, it is the original sin of the fall, caused by Adam, that “is done away” in Christ that is essential for them to be redeemed from the fall.
Taken by itself this scripture could be interpreted that way. But all the other scriptures make it clear that the sanctification of the atonement redeems little children from the fall of Adam and one cannot be holy until they are redeemed from the fall. Little children “cannot sin” (D&C 29:47) so they could never be considered a sinner. They live in a fallen and sinful world and require the atonement to be redeemed and sanctified from it, but they themselves are incapable of sin.
More later re: Baptism for the dead
Theodore
onika wrote:
You needed to read the next section to get the full picture:
Notice that everyone will be taught the gospel in the Spirit World including the principle of “vicarious baptism.” Man cannot be saved in ignorance (D&C 131:6). The vision that Joseph had of his brother Alvin in the Celestial Kingdom was obviously a vision of the future. Notice that the vision was given on the occasion of them administering the ordinance of the endowment, as far as it had been revealed at that time.
The ordinances of baptism and the endowment are not given to little children who died before the age of accountability, nor to those who because of mental capacity are not accountable. I would assume that may also be true of those who knew NO law. But, as this would apply only to an unknown few it is not an issue in the work done in the Temples today. Perhaps it will abe pplied to some during the Millennium when all things are revealed and it will be known who those people are.
Theodore,
So, you’re saying the atonement as applied to children is for the resurrection only, to overcome physical death. They can be unholy without sinning. Mortality makes them unholy, but not sinners. I was equating unholiness with sin, but in the law of Moses people were considered unholy or unclean without sinning.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Excellent! More later on the Temple.
Theodore,
I hate to disappoint you, but I disagree with your post on baptism for the dead. D&C 138 was given to Joseph F. Smith in 1918. If you read D&C 137 again I think it is clear Joseph was not aware of baptism for the dead.
D&C 137:
5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;
6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.
He marveled that he would be in the celestial kingdom since he had not been baptised before he died. This indicates to me he did not know about baptism for the dead. Can you show me he was aware of it or practised it by January 1836?
7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;
9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.
I believe we will be judged according to our knowledge, so a heathen who knows murder is wrong will be judged if he commits murder. I think D&C 137 and the Book of Mormon scriptures are saying if he doesn’t know about baptism he will not be held accountable for it/will not need it, and God will judge his heart.
I think D&C 93:38 can be interpreted both ways, but I thought it fit my interpretation better (infants are not innocent before God without Christ’s atonement) because of this scripture:
Mosiah 3:
16 And even if it were possible that little children could sin they could not be saved; but I say unto you they are blessed; for behold, as in Adam, or by nature, they fall, even so the blood of Christ atoneth for their sins.
18 For behold he judgeth, and his judgment is just; and the infant perisheth not that dieth in his infancy; but men drink damnation to their own souls except they humble themselves and become as little children, and believe that salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.
Format correction. Mike will you please delete the above?
onika,
I agree. He was not aware of baptism for the dead at that time. About ten weeks later, on April 3 1836, Elijah appeared to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland Temple and bestowed upon them the keys, or the authority, for the ordinances of the Temple. (D&C 110:13-16). This was the authority that whatsoever is bound on earth shall be bound in heaven (D&C 128:8-10). These are the same keys that were given to the Apostle Peter:
The Prophet Joseph did not introduce baptism for the dead until Aug. 15, 1940 during his funeral sermon for Seymour Brunson. One of the first benefactors of the new ordinance was Alvin Smith, the deceased brother of the Prophet. In September of 1840, Hyrum Smith acting as the proxy, was baptized for and in behalf of his brother Alvin, who was dead. Even though four years earlier, Joseph had seen the vision of his brother Alvin in the Celestial Kingdom, Joseph knew that Alvin had to be baptized to get there. Joseph knew that the vision was of the future, as many visions are.
Jesus put it very clearly. Baptism and the Gift of the Holy are essential for anyone to enter the Kingdom of God. Jesus even had himself baptized, although he had never sinned, to “fulfill all righteousness.” Therefore the billions and billions of people who were never baptized by those holding authority from God would be shut out of the Kingdom of God.
But God prepared a way to overcome this problem by introducing the ordinance of baptism for the dead by proxy. Christ’s ancient Apostles new this and performed the ordinance under the authority given to Peter. Writing about some who did not believe in the resurrection Paul said:
Theodore,
You’re the first person, by the way, who was able to answer my question about being born guilty. You get 100 points! 🙂
This is a very important point of doctrine because it is a foundational principle of Evangelists.
I am going to write more about baptism for the dead.
Since it isn’t our fault we are mortal, the resurrection is a free gift, but it was Adam’s fault so the death of Jesus must have been done as a substitution for Adam (Adam and Eve are considered one person since they’re married) and since Adam represents all mankind and we are his seed, we inherit the effects of Adam’s sin (mortality) and also the substitutionary part of the atonement.
You may get annoyed at the next part:
I am attempting to show evidence that at the time the Book of Mormon was written, the doctrine of salvation was according to what Joseph understood and believed, and that it gradually evolved into what it is now.
Excerpts from “Teaching of Presidents of the Church Joseph Smith”:
Early in the Prophet Joseph Smith’s ministry, he had an experience that would help to prepare him for the time when the doctrine of salvation for the dead would be revealed. In November 1823, Alvin Smith, the oldest child of Lucy Mack Smith and Joseph Smith Sr., suddenly became seriously ill and lay near death.
When Alvin died, the family asked a Presbyterian minister in Palmyra, New York, to officiate at his funeral. As Alvin had not been a member of the minister’s congregation, the clergyman asserted in his sermon that Alvin could not be saved. William Smith, Joseph’s younger brother, recalled: “[The minister] … intimated very strongly that [Alvin] had gone to hell, for Alvin was not a church member, but he was a good boy and my father did not like it.”
I believe it is possible that, because of this experience, Joseph wrote in the Book of Mormon that Christ atoned for those who died without the law to explain what happened to his brother. He knew everyone had to be baptised to enter God’s Kingdom, and he did not want to believe that his brother went to hell, so based on the teaching of “in my Father’s house are many mansions” he reasoned that there was a place for those who had not had the opportunity to be baptised and died without the law.
February 16, 1832 D&C 76:
Prefacing his record of this vision the Prophet wrote: “Upon my return from Amherst conference, I resumed the translation of the Scriptures. From sundry revelations which had been received, it was apparent that many important points touching the salvation of man had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled. It appeared self-evident from what truths were left, that if God rewarded every one according to the deeds done in the body, the term ‘Heaven,’ as intended for the Saints’ eternal home, must include more kingdoms than one. Accordingly, while translating St. John’s Gospel, myself and Elder Rigdon saw the following vision.” It was after the Prophet had translated John 5: 29 that this vision was given.
The baptised inherit the Celestial Kingdom:
50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—
51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.
65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.
69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.
Those who were not baptised in this life because they were not taught the gospel (died without the law) but lived good lives, and were taught in spirit prison and received a testimony of Jesus, inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom:
71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.
72 Behold, these are they who died without law;
73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;
74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.
76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.
77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
Those of the Telestial Kingdom are the wicked, who, I am assuming were taught in spirit prison, but did not receive a testimony of Jesus:
81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.
82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.
83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.
84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.
85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.
December 27 and 28, 1832, and January 3, 1833. D&C 88:
14 Now, verily I say unto you, that through the redemption which is made for you is brought to pass the resurrection from the dead.
15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man.
16 And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul.
17 And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it.
(Baptism)
18 Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory;
21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.
(Celestial Kingdom)
96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him.
97 And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—
98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God.
(Terrestrial Kingdom)
99 And after this another angel shall sound, which is the second trump; and then cometh the redemption of those who are Christ’s at his coming; who have received their part in that prison which is prepared for them, that they might receive the gospel, and be judged according to men in the flesh.
(Telestial Kingdom)
100 And again, another trump shall sound, which is the third trump; and then come the spirits of men who are to be judged, and are found under condemnation;
101 And these are the rest of the dead; and they live not again until the thousand years are ended, neither again, until the end of the earth.
(Sons of Perdition)
102 And another trump shall sound, which is the fourth trump, saying: There are found among those who are to remain until that great and last day, even the end, who shall remain filthy still.
From the preceding verses it appears that Joseph understood or believed that Alvin would be in the Terrestrial Kingdom, which was still part of Heaven because they receive of the “presence of the Son” and are “Christ’s at his coming”. Then in 1836 he received the vision of Alvin in the Celestial Kingdom, and God explained that those who would have been baptised if they had had the opportunity in this life will go to the Celestial kingdom. This would have been a good opportunity to tell Joseph about baptism for the dead, but instead he said he judges men’s hearts.
Excerpts from “Teaching of Presidents of the Church Joseph Smith”:
In December 1840 Joseph Smith wrote to members of the Quorum of the Twelve and other priesthood leaders who were serving missions in Great Britain: “I presume the doctrine of ‘baptism for the dead’ has ere this reached your ears, and may have raised some inquiries in your minds respecting the same. I cannot in this letter give you all the information you may desire on the subject; but … I would say that it was certainly practiced by the ancient churches; and St. Paul endeavors to prove the doctrine of the resurrection from the same, and says, ‘Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?’ [1 Corinthians 15:29.]
“I first mentioned the doctrine in public when preaching the funeral sermon of Brother Seymour Brunson; and have since then given general instructions in the Church on the subject. The Saints have the privilege of being baptized for those of their relatives who are dead. … Without enlarging on the subject, you will undoubtedly see its consistency and reasonableness; and it presents the Gospel of Christ in probably a more enlarged scale than some have imagined it.”
It appears that Joseph did not receive the doctrine of baptism for the dead by revelation, but by reading the scriptures and the use of reasoning. This explains why the doctrine is not taught in the Book of Mormon.
onika said,
Except that you are ignoring volumes of evidence that it was impossible for Joseph Smith, or for that matter anyone else in the Nineteenth Century, to have written the Book of Mormon. The preponderance of scholarly evidence is that it was a translation of an ancient document, just as he said it was.
Baptism for the dead is a Temple Ordinance and because of their sacredness the revelations for all of the Temple Ordinances have never been made public. So I cannot point out a particular revelation on a particular day.
Baptism for the dead was not had on the earth prior to the atonement of Jesus Christ. That is when Jesus appeared to the righteous in the Spirit World and gave them the keys for the preaching of the gospel there (D&C 138). It would have made no sense to do, or to teach, baptisms for the dead on earth if none of those being baptized for could hear the Gospel in the Spirit World and have the opportunity to either accept or reject it. The Apostle Peter taught these principles:
Notice that Peter links preaching the Gospel to those who are dead with being saved by water. The basic principles of the Gospel are faith, repentance, baptism and receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost. Why teach the Gospel of baptism to the dead if they cannot be baptized? Joseph Smith didn’t make it up any more than Peter did.
The resurrected Jesus Christ was with and taught his Apostles for forty days:
Jesus had been with his Apostles for three years. Why was it necessary for Him to spend another forty days teaching them after his resurrection? None of what Jesus taught them during this forty days is recorded, but we do catch glimpses of some of those teachings in the subsequent teachings of the Apostles.
The ancient Israelite prophets, Mormon and Moroni wrote the Book of Mormon for our day, which they had seen. They wrote what God inspired them to write to begin the restoration of the Gospel in our day. The foundation principles of the Gospel needed to be established through the Book of Mormon first before more advanced details would be given by revelation later, “line upon line, precept upon precept” (Isaiah 28:10; 2Nephi 28:30; D&C 98:12).
Onika, through all of your studies there is only one way that you can know for certain that the Book of Mormon is the word of God and that is to ask Him.
Notice that it must be done with “real intent.”
I did this many years ago and I know for certain that the Book of Mormon is the word of God.
Theodore
Theodore,
I agree that baptism for the dead would not have been taught before Christ if the gospel were not. But it could have been taught after Christ came in the Book of Mormon, especially in the book of Moroni. If Joseph received a revelation on it why didn’t he say so when he was writing to the priesthood leaders who were serving missions? Instead he used logic to persuade them it was a true doctrine.
I don’t think Joseph could have written the Book of Mormon by himself because he wasn’t a very good writer at the time. Why do you say it could not have been written by anyone of the nineteenth century?
I would pray about it if I had the faith, but I don’t and won’t until I can get my questions answered. Thank you for trying to help me. I mean that sincerely.
onika said,
1. Many things not known about the Near East in 1929 are written in the Book of Mormon.
2.Artistic literary forms, writing styles and names used in ancient Israel are readily identified in the Book of Mormon.
Here are a couple of introductory overviews listed on the FAIR Website on the subject. They each have excellent endnotes to follow for further detailed study.
onika said:
Baptism for the dead probably was performed amongst the Nephites after Christ’s resurrection and visit to them. The other Temple ordinances for the dead were also probably performed by them as well even though they are not mentioned either. The mention of baptism for the dead in the New Testament is only a passing comment on the subject of the resurrection and not intended to teach the principle of temple work for the dead. There is an adage amongst archaeologists that, “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” I think this principle also holds true in this case. Because Moroni did not mention baptism for the dead is not evidence that they did not practice it.
I agree absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but this forum brought up the subject so I was giving my theory, which I think is pretty good. I have some more to say related to this subject.
Onika, absence of evidence is not *always* evidence of absence. Sometimes it is.
When the circumstances are such that it would be more likely than not for evidence to have been left by an event, the absence of evidence can be (circumstantial) evidence that the event did not occur.
An example might be the absence of bloodstains on a carpet. That could be evidence that a particularly gory murder did not recently take place on that carpet, as it would be more likely than not for the event to have left some evidence.
Theodore (and anyone else who wants to comment):
The following is further evidence that Joseph Smith wrote the the doctrine of salvation in the book of Mormon as he understood it at the time and that it evolved to the doctrine it is today.
In the Bible, the only book that uses the phrases “lake of fire ” and “second death” is the book of Revelations. But the book of Mormon, which was supposed to be written during OT times, has many references to the lake of fire and the second death.
The lake of fire and second death are rewarded to all those who do not accept Jesus Christ (heaven or hell doctrine) in Revelations, the Book of Mormon, and the D&C, until the revelation given in D&C 76 (Feb. 16, 1832). In D&C 88 (Dec. 27, 1832) the doctrine changes again. The Book of Mormon describes the second death as a spiritual death. Revelations makes it sound a lot more physical.
Rev. 19:
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
The beast and the false prophet were cast ALIVE into the lake. Does this sound like a spiritual death?
Rev. 20:
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
On whom does the second death have no power? Those who have part in the first resurrection; those who reign with Christ for 1000 years.
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Everyone who did not take part in the first resurrection are judged and cast into the lake of fire forever!
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Who ARE written in the Book of Life? The saints. Who are the saints? Those who believe in Christ. The UNBELIEVER is cast into the lake of fire with all the murderers!
Rev. 21:
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Book of Mormon and D&C agree with Revelations; after the wicked resurrect they shall go into the lake of fire forever:
2 Nephi 9:
15 And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment-seat of the Holy One of Israel; and then cometh the judgment, and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God.
16 And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end.
19 O the greatness of the mercy of our God, the Holy One of Israel! For he delivereth his saints from that awful monster the devil, and death, and hell, and that lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.
2 Nephi 28:
23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.
Jacob 3:
11 O my brethren, hearken unto my words; arouse the faculties of your souls; shake yourselves that ye may awake from the slumber of death; and loose yourselves from the pains of hell that ye may not become angels to the devil, to be cast into that lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death.
12 And now I, Jacob, spake many more things unto the people of Nephi, warning them against fornication and lasciviousness, and every kind of sin, telling them the awful consequences of them.
Jacob 6:
6 Yea, today, if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts; for why will ye die?
7 For behold, after ye have been nourished by the good word of God all the day long, will ye bring forth evil fruit, that ye must be hewn down and cast into the fire?
8 Behold, will ye reject these words? Will ye reject the words of the prophets; and will ye reject all the words which have been spoken concerning Christ, after so many have spoken concerning him; and deny the good word of Christ, and the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and quench the Holy Spirit, and make a mock of the great plan of redemption, which hath been laid for you?
9 Know ye not that if ye will do these things, that the power of the redemption and the resurrection, which is in Christ, will bring you to stand with shame and awful guilt before the bar of God?
10 And according to the power of justice, for justice cannot be denied, ye must go away into that lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever, which lake of fire and brimstone is endless torment.
Mosiah 3:
24 And thus saith the Lord: They shall stand as a bright testimony against this people, at the judgment day; whereof they shall be judged, every man according to his works, whether they be good, or whether they be evil.
25 And if they be evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls.
26 Therefore, they have drunk out of the cup of the wrath of God, which justice could no more deny unto them than it could deny that Adam should fall because of his partaking of the forbidden fruit; therefore, mercy could have claim on them no more forever.
27 And their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever. Thus hath the Lord commanded me. Amen.
Alma 12:
15 But this cannot be; we must come forth and stand before him in his glory, and in his power, and in his might, majesty, and dominion, and acknowledge to our everlasting shame that all his judgments are just; that he is just in all his works, and that he is merciful unto the children of men, and that he has all power to save every man that believeth on his name and bringeth forth fruit meet for repentance.
16 And now behold, I say unto you then cometh a death, even a second death, which is a spiritual death; then is a time that whosoever dieth in his sins, as to a temporal death, shall also die a spiritual death; yea, he shall die as to things pertaining unto righteousness.
17 Then is the time when their torments shall be as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever; and then is the time that they shall be chained down to an everlasting destruction, according to the power and captivity of Satan, he having subjected them according to his will.
18 Then, I say unto you, they shall be as though there had been no redemption made; for they cannot be redeemed according to God’s justice; and they cannot die, seeing there is no more corruption.
Alma 13:
27 And now, my brethren, I wish from the inmost part of my heart, yea, with great anxiety even unto pain, that ye would hearken unto my words, and cast off your sins, and not procrastinate the day of your repentance;
28 But that ye would humble yourselves before the Lord, and call on his holy name, and watch and pray continually, that ye may not be tempted above that which ye can bear, and thus be led by the Holy Spirit, becoming humble, meek, submissive, patient, full of love and all long-suffering;
29 Having faith on the Lord; having a hope that ye shall receive eternal life; having the love of God always in your hearts, that ye may be lifted up at the last day and enter into his rest.
30 And may the Lord grant unto you repentance, that ye may not bring down his wrath upon you, that ye may not be bound down by the chains of hell, that ye may not suffer the second death.
Christ redeems all mankind from the first spiritual death (mortality; separation from God’s presence), but those who don’t repent suffer the second death which is the lake of fire:
Helaman 14:
15 For behold, he surely must die that salvation may come; yea, it behooveth him and becometh expedient that he dieth, to bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, that thereby men may be brought into the presence of the Lord.
16 Yea, behold, this death bringeth to pass the resurrection, and redeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death; for all mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual.
17 But behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord.
18 Yea, and it bringeth to pass the condition of repentance, that whosoever repenteth the same is not hewn down and cast into the fire; but whosoever repenteth not is hewn down and cast into the fire; and there cometh upon them again a spiritual death, yea, a second death, for they are cut off again as to things pertaining to righteousness.
19 Therefore repent ye, repent ye, lest by knowing these things and not doing them ye shall suffer yourselves to come under condemnation, and ye are brought down unto this second death.
D&C 63 (August 1831):
17 Wherefore, I, the Lord, have said that the fearful, and the unbelieving, and all liars, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie, and the whoremonger, and the sorcerer, shall have their part in that lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
18 Verily I say, that they shall not have part in the first resurrection.
In D&C 76 the doctrine changes; Telestial people will go to lake of fire before they are resurrected/ redeemed in the last resurrection. Sons of Perdition will not be redeemed from lake of fire; they will not resurrect (D&C 88 also says the resurrection of the dead is the redemption of the soul):
D&C 76:
(Telestial)
84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.
85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.
(Perdition)
31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—
32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
Here is clearly says they shall not be redeemed nor resurrect; he saves all except them:
37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;
38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.
39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.
40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—
41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;
42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;
43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.
44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—
45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;
46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;
Doctrine changes again; Sons of perdition will resurrect but will not receive glory; they will return to the lake of fire:
D&C 88:
14 Now, verily I say unto you, that through the redemption which is made for you is brought to pass the resurrection from the dead.
15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man.
16 And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul.
17 And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it.
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.
Someone else will have to pick up the gauntlet on this one as I am away for a couple of days. It has been good to visit with you onika, and Thomas, and Seth.
Theodore,
What were you going to tell me about the temple?
Thank you for reminding me. I was going to respond to your post of August 6th, 2009 at 10:11 pm where you said:
The Temple was no longer needed because most of the ordinances of the Temple were ordinances of the Law of Moses, which law was fulfilled with the sacrifice of the Savior. Also, the rending of the veil at the death of Jesus was an obvious sign from God that the temple was no longer approved by Him. As you have pointed out the Temple was more of a tradition for the early Jewish converts which did not last long.
The higher ordinances of the Temple could not have been being performed (properly at least) because, as far as we know, there was no Melchizedek Priesthood that had the authority between Malachi and Jesus. The Apostles would have been given the authority but it is highly unlikely that those in control of the Temple would have allowed them to exercise it. The Temple ordinances of baptism for the dead and the endowment and sealings would probably have been performed at some other location dedicated for that purpose.
Onika,
it seems you did not get an answer to your last question about the sons of perdition and resurrection. D&C 76:39 states, that all others will brought up in a resurrection of glory. Even the Telestial kingdom is one of great glory from a human point of view. Even those people will have to eventually confess, that it is Christ’s Atonement that is giving them that.
If they don’t they become the sons of perdition, by knowingly denying Christ.
Moreover, in a framework of continuing revelation, how would it be surprising to have human misunderstandings corrected, thus “changing” the doctrine seemingly? I know that is one problem many people have with Mormon doctrine. They want a “fixed target”.
However, it’s not as if mainstream, ecumenical Christian doctrine is the same today as it was even 35 years ago, when I withdrew from a Protestant church.
In briefly scanning Onika’s comments, it appears he or she has missed a key point regarding the innocence of little children (after birth). In John 3 and Moses 6 we learn that baptism (referred to as “rebirth” or “being born again”) and physical birth both have the same effect in cleansing or justifying a soul from its prior sin or guilt. Upon birth, through the infinite atonement–which transcends time–any prior sins are washed away. So it is upon being reborn, or baptized, due to the presence of water, blood and spirit (Moses 6:59)that sins are washed away. We could just as easily refer to our birth, as the “baptism we call birth.” (This same process can be reenacted upon worthily partaking of the Sacrament.) For this reason, we learn in The Book of Mormon (as understood by the early prophets) that it is a mockery to baptize little children, since they are born or baptized innocent already, through the Atonement of Christ. (Moroni 8:9-17). While I haven’t read Onika’s full thread, it appears that the beginning premise is fallacious, and any logical conclusions that come from it are likewise fallacious.
Further clarification on the Onika’s orignial note, which incorrectly stated “[Children] ARE born guilty sinners!” and should have more correctly stated that we were all sinners before we were born (or “baptized” by the process of birth as described above), and then goes on to unwisely parallel it with those “who die without the law.” First, baptsim is an ordinance necessary for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom, while those who “died without the law” is a descriptor used for those who generally inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom (D&C 76:72) for which kingdom baptism is not a prerequisite. While those who inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom will be “saved” from death and hell, they will not be saved in the Celestail Kingdom, for which baptism, or “born again” (John 3) is a requirement.
Scott said:
First, baptsim is an ordinance necessary for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom, while those who “died without the law” is a descriptor used for those who generally inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom …
Right, that’s why Joseph thought his brother Alvin would not be in the Celestial Kingdom.
Scott,
How could we be sinners before we were born? It’s being born mortal (fallen state) that makes us, not sinners, as Theodore pointed out, but unholy and unworthy to be in God’s presence.
D&C 93:
38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.
I interpret this to say, that we started out as innocent spirits, became fallen when born (infant state), but because of the atonement we are now considered innocent in our infant state. That is why babies don’t have to be circumcised anymore, but did before the atonement.
Moroni 8:
…wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.
D&C 74:
5 Wherefore, for this cause the apostle wrote unto the church, giving unto them a commandment, not of the Lord, but of himself, that a believer should not be united to an unbeliever; except the law of Moses should be done away among them,
6 That their children might remain without circumcision; and that the tradition might be done away, which saith that little children are unholy; for it was had among the Jews;
7 But little children are holy, being sanctified through the atonement of Jesus Christ; and this is what the scriptures mean.