There has been much talk both in publications and on the internet about the existence of two Cumorahs with relation to the location of the Book of Mormon culture.
The following verses from the book of Ether describe the relationship between the Jaredite lands, the hill Shim and the Hill Cumorah.
To summarize:
- The only seashore mentioned with respect to the Jaredite lands was eastward.
- This seashore was eastward of both the Hill Shim and the Hill Cumorah
- The Hill Cumorah and the Hill Ramah were where Mormon hid up all the records save those few that he gave to his son Moroni.
- The Book of Mormon was translated from the plates given to Moroni and not those buried in the Hill Cumorah.
- The last battle of both the Nephites and the Jaredites took place at or near the same location.
And it came to pass that he fought with Lib, in which Lib did smite upon his arm that he was wounded; nevertheless, the army of Coriantumr did press forward upon Lib, that he fled to the borders upon the seashore. And it came to pass that Coriantumr pursued him; and Lib gave battle unto him upon the seashore. * * * And it came to pass that Shiz did pursue Coriantumr eastward, even to the borders by the seashore, and there he gave battle unto Shiz for the space of three days.
And the Lord warned Omer in a dream that he should depart out of the land; wherefore Omer departed out of the land with his family, and traveled many days, and came over and passed by the hill of Shim, and came over by the place where the Nephites were destroyed, and from thence eastward, and came to a place which was called Ablom, by the seashore, and there he pitched his tent, and also his sons and his daughters, and all his household, save it were Jared and his family.
And it came to pass that the army of Coriantumr did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred.
The BofM only mentions one Cumorah. It was the same hill that the Jaredites called Ramah. It was located near the western seashore of a body of water large enough to be called a sea.
The Hill in New York, mistakenly named Cumorah by early Saints is south of any body of water large enough to be called a sea. It is too far west to be thought of as near the Atlantic seashore. This seashore being the only one east of Palmyra.I think we do a miss service when we talk about two Cumorahs or the “Two Cumorah theory.” This is like talking about the Two Yorks theory as an explanation of why there is a York in England and a new York in America.
There’s a few more questions we need to answer.
Where did the last battle of the Nephites and the Jaredites take place? Central America or New York? Some modern-day prophets say that New York is the very spot of the last great battles of these civilizations. Was this their opinion and not prophetic truth?
If the Hill Cumorah in New York is not where the sacred records were stored, then how did Moroni get all the way up to New York to deposit the plates of the Book of Mormon there? And why did Joseph Smith and others see a vision of the New York Hill Cumorah open up and see stacks and stacks of plates? How would Moroni have gotten all those plates up to New York to place in the Hill Cumorah in New York?
My belief is that there is only one Hill Cumorah, and it is the one in New York. That is where the last battles were, and that is where all the plates were hid.
And not to be cheeky but there is also a third York Theory. The old name of Toronto (there is still a suburb known as North York).
Bryce
Moroni had thirty five years of wandering to get from mesoamerica to New York. It only took the saints less than two years to get from Nauvoo to the Salt Lake valley and pioneers took less than a year to travel from St Louis to California.
John Lund has published maps stored in the Chuch Archives that were drawn based on converstions with Joseph Smith that show Moroni’s travels from Mexico to New York.
http://www.elektroteck.com/bens/SCAN0003.JPG
The vision was of the actual storage cave. It could have been anywhere in the world. The assumption that it was in the hill in New York are the opinions of men and there is no sense of agreement in the different reports of the experience.
Larry P
Ok. Thanks for your insights.
How do you reconcile the statements of prophets who say the last great Nephite and Jaredite battles were at the Hill Cumorah in New York?
I’ve always thought that the word Cumorah meant something in the Nephite tongue. Like ‘knowledge’ or ‘wisdom’ so the name could be given to any hill that contains records.
Great Post!
(no i, don’t have anything of substance to say. sorry.)
Bryce writes:
Your presumption here is that the location of the hill Cumorah has been the subject of modern revelation. It hasn’t.
The prophets and other Church leaders who have said Cumorah was in New York believed it because that’s what everyone else believed.
I think Ether 9:3 (quoted above) is the best argument that Hill Cumorah in New York is not where the Nephites were destroyed; there are no archaeological evidences of a great battle, with many thousands being killed there–no weapons, campsites, or other evidences of anyone having been there during that period of time. Many feel that the Jaredites were the Olmec civilization, who were in the Central American area. Moroni did wander around for many years, but I wonder how he would’ve carried the plates with him, when they weighed 50-75 pounds, while having other things to carry which were needed for his survival; and, also he needed to avoid being seen by enemies of all kinds. Could he have buried the plates in the hill when they were needed to be there? As a resurrected being he would’ve had no trouble transporting them there. Also, had he buried them there in 421 AD, wouldn’t erosion, and/or other natural events, have buried the box and its stone lid under the ground, so that it wasn’t on the surface, where it was easy to remove the lid?
Mike writes:
Your presumption here is that prophets say things just because everyone else believes it too. I don’t think that is true. The prophets do not say thing just because those things are popular or the fads of the day. In fact, they usually go against the tide of popularity. Revelation does not come from the surrounding group; it comes from God.
I’m not saying that what the prophets said about the Hill Cumorah in New York is revelation. It may have been their opinion. But all things being equal, I will believe a prophet first over a scholar.
Actually, prophets do say things that are faddish or popular. It’s part of being a human being.
Contrary to some beliefs, I tend to think there is plenty of evidence supporting the battles being conducted in the eastern united states
The new dvd by rod meldrum concerning dna evidence of the book of mormon is thought provoking and, indeed, revolutionary.
I highly recommend this dvd.
RE: “there are no archaeological evidences of a great battle, with many thousands being killed there–no weapons, campsites, or other evidences of anyone having been there during that period of time.”
Are you an archaeologist? I doubt it. Has BYU archaeologists dug there? NO. Come back and make your claim once they have, because they are arguing from silence. There is no evidence at all that the New York Hill is NOT Cumorah. When they actually do some digs in New York to demonstrate that its not an ancient battlefield, then you can start talking. They haven’t done due diligence to prove it is not. They just state it as fact, as do you.
RE: “Contrary to some beliefs, I tend to think there is plenty of evidence supporting the battles being conducted in the eastern united states”
This old regurgitated garbage that the BYU archaeologists laugh at will not do. We need BYU to demonstrate that it is NOT Cumorah before anyone can say anything.
RE: “there are no archaeological evidences of a great battle, with many thousands being killed there–no weapons, campsites, or other evidences of anyone having been there during that period of time.”
Your archaeological expectations are all messed up for a place that has been plowed over however many times it has been plowed over. You have no idea how it was before they started plowing it. Only by digging archaeologically can any remnants of anything be found.
George J. (and others),
There has been some archaeological work done around Cumorah in New York, and it is reviewed very well in this article from FARMS.
The article is not that long and is definitely worth reading for anyone interested in the topic.
-Allen
Thats an extremely poor bit of garbage, because he says, hey, look at what Ritchie says, and hey look, they dug up stuff for this highway and look what they found.
UNTIL BYU DOES A REAL ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIG AT CUMORAH AND STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR IT THEN YOU CAN SAY SOMETHING. UNTIL THEN, YOU CAN SAY NOTHING.
I would refer you “Two Cumorah” boys to President Marion G. Romney’s October 1975 conference address entitiled “America’s Destiny”. Read it throughly and in particular the second to last paragraph which includes. “…I bear you my personal witness that I know that the things I have presented to you today are true-both those pertaining to past events and those pertaining to events yet to come.” Sounds like a testimony of a member of the First Presidency to me!!!
Also read Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 3 p. 232-243.
Let’s see statements and testimonies of members of the 12 and the First Presidency vs. LDS Scholars. I agree that’s a hard choice but as for me and my household I’m going with the GA’s on this one.
why does the hill cumorah(battleground) and the hill cumorah (library) have to be the same place?
Gary
None, other than the text of the Book of Mormon says they were the same place.
Mormon 6:
4 And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.
5 And *when athree hundred and eighty and four years had passed away, we had gathered in all the remainder of our people unto the land of Cumorah.
6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and
“hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord”,
“save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.”
7 And it came to pass that my people, with their wives and their children, did now behold the armies of the Lamanites marching towards them; and with that awful fear of death which fills the breasts of all the wicked, did they await to receive them.
8 And it came to pass that they came to battle against us, and every soul was filled with terror because of the greatness of their numbers.
9 And it came to pass that they did fall upon my people with the sword, and with the bow, and with the arrow, and with the ax, and with all manner of weapons of war.
10 And it came to pass that my men were hewn down, yea, even my ten thousand who were with me, and I fell wounded in the midst; and they passed by me that they did not put an end to my life.
11 And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.
Larry P
Just for the record, I think I’ve changed my mind on this subject. The opinion of a GA is not necessarily of any more worth than the opinion of a scholar. We are left to be guided by the Spirit in these things that are not official revealed doctrines. As J.F. McConkie once said, “Truth is not an office or a position to which one is ordained.”
All Bull Sh!t….
Thanks Rick, your reasoning definitely convinced me! Such arguments will win millions of converts to your point of view.
BTW, I think Sperry worte a great article about this published by FARMS a few years back. I haven’t read it for a long time but it is interesting.
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/pdf.php?filename=MTMzNTQ0MTU3My00LTEucGRm&type=amJtcw==
The great lakes would have been called seas by ancient people. For example, the Dead Sea and the Sea of Galilee in Israel – both small than the great lake but called ‘seas’.
Also, there is a lot of evidence for the ‘North’ theory, as well as Meso America. For example, burials of the Hopewell and Adena, found in the North Eastern and Central part of the US, have skeletons with headplates and breastplates make of copper from ancient Michigan mines. North Eastern Indian tribes describe an ancient white race that they wiped out. The Mediterranean DNA is found among these tribes, NOT in Central America.
Also, a Hopewell burial mound (about 200 BC) revealed obsidian from Yellow Stone (WY), copper from Michigan, and sea shells from the Gulf of Mexico.
They know these ancient peoples traded. If you travel up the Mississippi River, to the Ohio, Moroni could have easily reached NY by boat. And the Mississippi River holds countless ancient hopewell site along it’s banks.
Is there evidence in Central American then? Of course. Whey couldn’t the Book of Mormon people been both places? Remember, we have only a brief sketch of their history. Book of Mormon groups could have easily traveled down the Central America, or vice versa.
Also, don’t forget the Zelph incident, where Joseph Smith identified a skeleton dug from a mound (a Hopewell Mound, I might add), as a white Lamanite, a follower of Christ, who was known from the Rockies to the East seaboard. This was recorded by EIGHT people.
And I won’t even go into the Michigan tablets and Hebrew writing found on stones in Ohio (maybe another time).
Obviously the Book of Mormon people were all over the continent, north and south, east and west. I’m not sure why there continues to be this prideful debate back and forth. We need to acknowledge Book of Mormon evidence ALL OVER North and Central America.
The “Two Cumorah” theory is a required corollary of the “Mesoamerica Equals the Lands of the Book of Mormon” theory. If the “Mesoamerica” theory is correct then there has to be two Cumorahs. This is why the ‘Two Cumorah” theory was developed. If there is only one Cumorah then the Mesoamerica theory is false. The proponents of the “Two Cumorah” theory therefore begin their analysis with the presumption and the premise that it is true. As there is no evidence for two Cumorahs in the Book of Mormon, nor in early Church history, arguments have been developed to try and allow for two Cumorahs and to refute the evidence to the contrary. The “Two Cumorah” theory is the Achilles’ heel of the “Mesoamerica” theory.
Larry Poulsen’s summary bullet points at the beginning of this blog are essentially correct with one exception. When Larry wrote, “The Book of Mormon was translated from the plates given to Moroni and not those buried in the Hill Cumorah,” the inference is that the plates Moroni had were not buried in the Hill Cumorah. As you can see from the following scripture from which this statement was taken, Mormon does not say anything about where Moroni did or did not bury these plates thirty-six years later, nor could he.
“And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old…therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.” (Mormon 6:6)
There is nothing in this text that could possibly exclude Moroni, thirty-six years later, from burying the plates given to him by his father in the same hill.
This scripture is also used by the “Two Cumorah” proponents to explain why Joseph Smith and associates called the hill in Palmyra by the name of Cumorah. The reasoning is that they misunderstood this simple verse to read that Moroni (rather than Mormon) hid his plates in the hill Cumorah. There is no evidence provided to support this allegation, and it is an absurd intellectual insult to the prophets of the restoration. It is also contrary to the documentary evidence as to how they learned the name of the hill in Palmyra.
Oliver Cowdery testified that it was Moroni who revealed that Cumorah was the name of the hill in Palmyra, New York, when he said:
“This Book, which contained these things, was hid in the earth by Moroni, IN A HILL CALLED BY HIM CUMORAH, which hill is now in the state of New York, near the village of Palmyra, in Ontario County” (History of the Church 1:184; emphasis added)
David Whitmer confirmed this in an interview when he stated:
“[Joseph Smith] told me…he had a vision, an angel appearing to him three times in one night and telling him that there was a record of an ancient people deposited in a hill near his fathers house CALLED BY THE ANCIENTS ‘CUMORAH,’ situated in the township of Manchester, Ontario county N.Y…” (Milton V. Backman, Jr., “Eyewitness Accounts of the Restoration,” p. 233; emphasis added)
Joseph Smith knew that Cumorah was the name of the hill in Palmyra before he received the gold plates. Following Joseph’s meeting with Moroni at Cumorah, one year before Joseph received the plates, Joseph told his parents that he had “taken the severest chastisement that I have ever had in my life.” Joseph said:
“It was the angel of the Lord. AS I PASSED BY THE HILL OF CUMORAH, WHERE THE PLATES ARE, the angel met me and said that I had not been engaged enough in the work of the Lord; and the time had come for the record to be brought forth…”
(History of Joseph Smith by his Mother Lucy Mack Smith: The Unabridged Original Version, Compiled by R. Vernon Ingleton, Stratford Books, 2005, p. 159; emphasis added)
The documentary evidence is that it was Moroni who told Joseph Smith that Cumorah was the name of the hill in Palmyra. Moroni met with Joseph near the top of this hill every year for four years. Moroni would never have let Joseph Smith misunderstand the location of the hill Cumorah. It was around the hill Cumorah where Moroni’s father, Mormon, and the remainder of his family, his friends, and his people, were annihilated. This is where lay the bones of his father, his family and his people. To Moroni, Cumorah was sacred, hallowed ground.
Larry Poulson left out important geographical features in his list defining the location of the hill Cumorah.
“And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; AND IT WAS IN A LAND OF MANY WATERS…” (Mormon 6:2-5, emphasis added)
“And it came to pass that he came to the waters of Ripliancum, which, by interpretation, is large, or TO EXCEED ALL; wherefore, when they came to these waters they pitched their tents…and they did flee southward, and did pitch their tents in a place which was called Ogath. And it came to pass that the army of Coriantumr did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred.” (Ether 15:7-11)
The hill Cumorah (Ramah) was south of the waters that exceeded all. There is only one place on the North American Continent where the greatest bodies of water are found. That is why they are called the Great Lakes. Palmyra is just south of Lake Ontario.
From Ether 9, 14 and 15, Larry makes the argument that Cumorah was near a sea on the east. It is true that there was a sea east of Cumorah but there is no telling how far east. Ether 9:3 states that Omer traveled many days (on a big loop). The ancients measured their travel distances in days the same way we measure ours in hours. How many days he traveled from Cumorah to the east sea is unknown. Boston is about 375 miles east of Palmyra. At an average rate of 25 miles a day this would have been 15 days of travel and certainly fits within the parameters of Ether 9:3. (George A. Smith reported that Zion’s Camp traveled 25 to 40 miles a day in their 1,000 mile journey (LDS Church, Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, p. 287).
In Ether 14 and 15 we read that Coriantumr fought a battle with Lib in the land of Moron near the seashore. The army of Coriantumr fled to wilderness of Akish then to the plains of Agosh. Coriantumr killed Lib on the plains of Agosh and then Lib’s brother Shiz pursued Coriantumr and began to destroy many cities of the people of Coriantumr. This war went on for some time and covered a large territory. The war eventually came back to the seashore and lasted there for three days. From there Coriantumr fled to the valley of Shurr where he received some grave wounds. When he had recovered from his wounds another battle ensued from which Coriantumr fled to the waters of Ripliancum. Following this battle Coriantumr fled south to the hill Cumorah. All of these movements are consistent with the location of the hill Cumorah in Palmyra.
To insist that Cumorah is by the east sea because the original battle and another battle were fought there is like reasoning that Vicksburg, Mississippi, is near the east sea because the American Civil War started at Fort Sumter in South Carolina. (Of course if you are living in Utah or California then the hill Cumorah is near the east sea, and maybe Vicksburg is too.) After camping at Cumorah it took Coriantumr four more years to gather his people for the final battle, which speaks of a very large territory from which they were gathered (Ether 15:14).
Alex Koritz mentioned the Zelph vision. Let’s take a little space to review that:
“…and subsequently the VISIONS OF THE PAST being opened to my understanding by the SPIRIT OF THE ALMIGHTY I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thick-set man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky mountains. The curse was taken from Zelph, or, at least, in part-one of his thigh bones was broken by a stone flung from a sling, while in battle, years before his death. He was killed in battle by the arrow found among his ribs, during the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites.” (Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 vols., introduction and notes by B. H. Roberts, 2:, p.79-80; emphasis added)
Note 7 from above:
“According to Elder Kimball’s journal, the facts concerning the person whose bones had been found in the mound were not revealed to the Prophet Joseph until the camp had departed from the mound. He says:
“While on our way we felt anxious to know who the person was who had been killed by the arrow. It was made known to Joseph that he had been an officer who fell in battle in the last destruction among the Lamanites, and his name was Zelph. This caused us to rejoice much, to think that God was so mindful of us as to show these things to His servant. Brother Joseph had inquired of the Lord, AND IT WAS MADE KNOWN IN A VISION.” (Times and Seasons. vol. 6, p.788; emphasis added)
The Prophet Joseph Smith wrote a letter to his wife, Emma the day after he had found the bones of Zelph. The following is an excerpt from that letter:
“The whole of our journey, in the midst of so large a company of social honest and sincere men, WANDERING OVER THE PLAINS OF THE NEPHITES, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity, and gazing upon a country the fertility, the splendour and the goodness so indescribable, all serves to pass away time unnoticed.” (Dean C. Jessee, The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1984), 324; emphasis added)
The proponents of the “Two Cumorah” and the “Mesoamerica” theories argue, with all the evidence to the contrary, that this was not a vision but just the imagination of Joseph Smith. If this was a vision from the Almighty, as Joseph and others claim, then the “Two Cumorah” and the “Mesoamerica” theories are false. Those who would try to paint this as a figment of Joseph’s imagination give ammunition to those who try to do the same with Joseph’s first vision.
Conversely, the proponents of these theories claim that the entrance into the cave in the hill Cumorah by Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery was a vision, when there is no evidence to support the claim. Let’s take just a little more space to review that:
President Brigham Young, at a special conference held at Farmington, Utah, June 17, 1877, stated:
“When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to CARRY THEM BACK TO THE HILL CUMORAY, WHICH HE DID. Oliver Cowdery says that when Joseph and he WENT THERE, the hill opened, and THEY WALKED INTO A CAVE, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says that he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light, but it was as light as day. They laid the Plates on a table. It was a large table that stood in the middle of the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than many wagon loads. They were piled up in the corners and along the walls. The first time they went there, the Sword of Laban hung upon the walls, but WHEN THEY WENT THERE AGAIN, it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the Gold Plates. It was unsheathed, and on it was written these words, “This Sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the Kingdom of our God and His Christ.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 19, p. 38, emphasis added)
Notice that this was not a vision. They actually went there, and walked into the cave, twice.
As I mentioned in the beginning of this post, the “Two Cumorah” theory is the Achilles heel of the “Mesoamerica” theory. In my humble opinion they are both false.
Sorry about the typo above “CUMORAY”??? 🙂 🙂
Theodore
Have you done any research on the three dimensional geography of North America and tried to fit it to the descriptions of the over 500 mentions of geography in the Book of Mormon. I have and so has Sorenxon and we both have come to the same conclusion. The three dimensional geography of the eastern states does not fit with what the book of Mormon says. Check it out for yourself and dont just accept someone elses analysis because it would be nice to think that the Hill in New York is the same as the one described in the Book of Mormon.
I suggest you think about this scripture about the seach party that King Limhi sent to look for Zarahemla.
Mosiah 21:
25 Now king Limhi had sent, previous to the coming of Ammon, a small number of men to search for the land of Zarahemla; but they could not find it, and they were lost in the wilderness. 26 Nevertheless, they did find a land which had been peopled; yea, a land which was covered with dry bones; yea, a land which had been peopled and which had been destroyed; and they, having supposed it to be the land of Zarahemla, returned to the land of Nephi, having arrived in the borders of the land not many days before the coming of Ammon.
If the people of that time could be mistaken about geography just because they found ruins on the left bank of the river they followed, why are we as well as the early saints not prone to similar assumptions. Just because the plates were found in a hill, there is no reason to assume that it is the same hill spoken of in the B0ook of Mormon.
Your interpretation of the scriptures and the accounts of early saints make a good argument for a North American location but in the end the only information that we have that has come by revelation is found in the Book of Mormon, a text recieved and translated by the gift and power of God by Joseph Smith. If the geography does not fit the revealed word then there must be some other interpretation of the events described in second and third hand accounts about the hill in New York. By the way Joseph Smith, in his personal history, never called the hill in New York Cumorah. The D&C has one scripture that mentions that the Gospel would go forth from Cumorah but Cumorah may have been used here because by the time of this revelation, it was common usagefor the place where the plates were found.
Larry P
Larry,
One of the first things they teach in law school is that if you can’t refute the testimony then discredit the source. 🙂
I have done considerable research on the three dimensional geography of North America and find that all of the major Book of Mormon locations and all others that have any clues to their whereabouts fit very nicely into the physical map of North America. In this setting there is also a perfectly plausible explanation for the route and actions of the scouts of Limhi.
In February I finished a 100+ page thesis entitled “A North American Setting For The Book of Mormon.” With maps and pictures it is over a 20 MB Word.doc file and too big to send by email. If you would send me your snail mail address I would be happy to send you a copy on disc. I have not as yet published this thesis.
Theodore, I’d be very interested in your thesis paper. Could you provide your email and I’ll send you my snail mail address?
[email protected]