LETTER FROM A YOUTH PASTOR:
FOUR LDS RESPONSES TO FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Was God once a man who perfected himself into become a God? Do you believe there are other gods out there? Do you believe you will one day become God and have your own planet? Did God have sex with Mary? Is Jesus the brother of Satan? These are some of the many questions that are sent to the FAIR Web site through our Questions address.

Individuals frequently send e-mails asking questions. When those e-mails are received, we turn them over to our FAIR Apologetics List where our volunteers can respond. Often the questioners receive more than one answer from our list members.

Recently, we received an e-mail from a youth director at a Presbyterian Church. He asked a number of questions in his e-mail that seem to be representative of the questions we usually get. His one e-mail read like a frequently asked questions (FAQ) section in a book, citing questions that are representative of the skewed perceptions that people have about the Church.

Given the nature of his questions, we decided to post his e-mail along with four different responses from members of the FAIR Apologetics List.

• Two of the responses are detailed point-by-point responses where each of the pastor’s questions are listed, followed by a response to each one.
• Two of the responses are more conceptual and holistic. You might call them “summary responses.”

A few other members of the FAIR Apologetics List also responded, but we felt that these e-mails were good representative responses. Each of these writers brings valuable insights to these questions. We recommend reading all of these differing approaches.

All identifying items have been edited out of the original e-mail to protect the writer’s privacy.

 

Letter from a Youth Pastor

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Point by Point Responses		Summary Responses
René A. Krywult		Kevin Barney
Paul McNabb		Tom Matkin

 

 

 

LETTER FROM THE YOUTH PASTOR

Subject: Looking for honest statement of LDS beliefs

Greetings

 

I am the youth director at a Presbyterian Church in XXXXXXXXXXXXX. We are currently working through a series on what different faiths believe. We started with our own denomination and what we believe. We then moved to other Protestants, then on to Catholics. From there, we are now moving onto religions that we believe are not truly Christian. We are starting with Mormons. So as you can tell, I am looking to refute the LDS church to the kids in my youth group. We have one girl who has been attending recently and her family is Mormon. I want to share the truth with her, but do it in love and with care.

Often when people look to refute a certain religion (whether it be LDS, mainline Christianity, Islam, etc.) they will sometimes intentionally or unintentionally distort the facts. What I am attempting to do is give an honest appraisal of the LDS church and then refute the facts. I don’t want to just take half-truths I have heard about your religion and make the kids believe them. I want them to disagree with LDS based on facts, not on stories that people have exaggerated. So I am writing to you as people who defend the Mormon faith so I can have an accurate idea of what the LDS church really believes.

Let me outline some of the stuff I have found and you can tell me if it is an accurate assessment of LDS beliefs (I know that as in other churches, different people in the LDS believe in different ways, but I am looking for official doctrine or beliefs that are widely held):

• My understanding at this point is that you believe that God was once a man who through time and perfecting Himself became a god. Is there one main God over all the other gods?
• Joseph Smith was quoted on July 14, 1861 as saying that God was like us and is now the God of our planet. Does that mean that there are other gods of other planets and God is thus not all-powerful, the one, true God?
• It also appears from Smith in April 1844 that Jesus was simply an ordinary man who became holy and therefore, became like God the Father. Is this accurate?
• Is it accurate to believe that the LDS church claims that faithful followers can actually become gods of their own planets?
• Did I misread the BoM that God made people dark skinned because they were evil and sinned against Him?
• Is it the belief that Jesus spent time in North America? If so, at what point?
• Is it accurate to state that the LDS believes that it is the only true Christian church and that other denominations (such as the Presbyterians) are apostate and will not be saved?
• Is it true that God the Father has a wife and a physical body?
• Do Mormons still believe (as Smith taught) that Adam actually created the Earth?
• Do you actually believe that God the Father had sexual relations with Mary?
• Do you believe that Jesus married Mary and Martha and had sexual relations with them and had children?
• Was Jesus the brother of the devil?
• Do you believe that the blood of Christ is really not enough to save us?
• Do you believe in the Trinity (one true God in three persons)? o Do you believe in the full deity and humanity of the Christ, Jesus of Nazareth?

I hope this is not appearing as some personal attack. Honestly, I want to know what you believe and share it with my kids. I don’t want to misrepresent you. True, I do wish to discredit the LDS, but I don’t want to misquote your statements or beliefs. I will be sharing with our kids on Sunday the 22nd, so it is still about 10 days off. Thanks for your time.

 

XXXXXXXXXX
Director of Youth Ministries
XXXXXXXXXXX Presbyterian Church
XXXXXXXXXXX

 

Point by Point Response from René A. Krywult

All mails to the president of FAIR or to the webmaster are forwarded to an E-mail list of FAIR members (FAIR members are non-paid volunteers). Everyone on this list is free to answer. So, you may receive different answers form different members. The opinions I express are mine, and the Church and FAIR are not responsible for them. You are already aware, that – as in every church – not all beliefs are held by everyone. So take my notes with a grain of salt. I’m not the president of the Church, and I may not speak for the Church as a whole. Yet, I count myself as a faithful, True Blue Mormon in full communion with the Church. I’ve filled various callings, especially teaching callings, so my opinions are not just “worthless babble”.

I think that it is an extremely good thing to let kids know what others believe. And it is very good to not want to misrepresent other people’s faith. Yet, I do believe, that your task is almost impossible. You will never know in all details what people of denomination X believe, until you yourself ARE of denomination X.

The best you can do is study that denomination/religion for some years, from a friendly perspective. Still, after years, you will not know it all.

I was a Roman Catholic before joining the Church, and I was a well-educated one. I believe that I could, at any time, prepare a sermon for a Catholic mass on any topic, and even the clergy would say that I did not misrepresent Catholic doctrine. I was one of them, and I studied hard.

I attended Lutheran religious education for pupils for six semesters, two fifty-minute lessons per week. I attended Lutheran Sunday services for quite some time. I’ve discussed religions questions both with Lutheran clergy and laity for the last six years, sometimes for hours a day. Yet, I would feel uncomfortable if I would be asked to tell someone else what Lutherans believe. I feel that I do not know enough for such a task.

Part of the problem is a language issue. Some key words have totally different meanings in Catholicism, Protestantism and Mormonism. The best example for this, IMHO, is Joseph Smith, when he characterized contemporary Trinitarian dogmas, which he rejected. If you study his words closely, you will see that he did not attack true Trinity doctrine, but Modalism! Don’t mistake me: He characterized what most laity of his day (and of our day, too!) believe to be “the Trinity”. And Western Trinity since Augustine HAS some semi-Sabellianism in it. The unity is so much stressed, that it hardly leaves place for the three persons. Persons are reduced to mere relations. And for someone who didn’t study the idea, tritheism or modalism is a fairly well representation of folk beliefs on Western Trinity. Please keep also in mind, that Westerners in all those centuries did not understand why Eastern Orthodox Christianity objects so much to the “filioque.” If it has been impossible for Catholics and Protestants to understand Oriental thought on God, how can a non-Mormon hope to represent what Mormons believe?

Then why not simply let the presentation be done by someone who is really knowledgeable both of Mormon doctrine AND the language of Protestantism? Let a Mormon do a presentation, then ask questions. If you let missionaries do the presentation, this COULD be a problem, since they do not understand Protestant language, and their job is only the communication of the BASICS of Mormon doctrine. But maybe we have someone at FAIR who lives in your vicinity, who would be ready to do it? Since I live in Austria, Europe, I won’t be able to come ;-).

Mormonism differs from Protestantism in a significant way: Mormonism is not creedal. Mormon doctrine is what you can find in the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price. What is not in there may be good and right, but it is not doctrine, until it didn’t make it into those books. Most of your questions have their foundation in the Journal of Discourses (JoD), a collection of sermons of early Church leaders. JoD is not more relevant to modern Mormon doctrine than the writings of the Early Church Fathers are relevant for modern Protestant doctrine.

The positive thing about this is that everyone is encouraged to study the scriptures, pray about them, and let the Holy Ghost explain to the reader what God wants him to believe, know and do. The goal is to have every single member be a prophet for his own area.

The negative thing is that Mormon theology is not systematized, sometimes seems contradictory, and getting to know the full truth is at least a lifetime endeavor. Therefore, in Church we focus on the first principles: faith, repentance, baptism, living faithfully.

My understanding at this point is that you believe that God was once a man who through time and perfecting Himself became a god. Is there one main God over all the other gods?

I’ll quote President Hinckley about this and Brigham Young later on. Pres Hinckley was asked:

Q: …about that, God the Father was once a man as we were. This is something that Christian writers are always addressing. Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are? This is his answer:

A: I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it. I haven’t heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don’t know. I don’t know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don’t know a lot about it and I don’t know that others know a lot about it.

That’s where Brigham Young comes in:

Many have tried to penetrate to the First Cause of all things; but it would be as easy for an ant to number the grains of sand on the earth. It is not for man, with his limited intelligence, to grasp eternity in his comprehension. There is an eternity of life, from which we were composed by the wisdom and skill of superior Beings. It would be as easy for a gnat to trace the history of man back to his origin as for man to fathom the First Cause of all things, lift the veil of eternity, and reveal the mysteries that have been sought after by philosophers from the beginning. What, then, should be the calling and duty of the children of men? Instead of inquiring after the origin of the Gods – instead of trying to explore the depths of eternities that have been, that are, and that will be, – instead of endeavoring to discover the boundaries of boundless space, let them seek to know the object of their present existence, and how to apply, in the most profitable manner for their mutual good and salvation, the intelligence they possess. Let them seek to know and thoroughly understand things within their reach, and to make themselves well acquainted with the object of their being here, by diligently seeking unto a superior Power for information, and by the careful study of the best books.

Joseph Smith was quoted on July 14, 1861 as saying that God was like us and is now the God of our planet. Does that mean that there are other gods of other planets and God is thus not all-powerful, the one, true God?

Joseph Smith died in 1844, so 1861 was 17 years after his death. That’s the cheap and easy answer ;-). If you could give me the exact reference, I would try to look up the context, and then give you a more specific answer.

The unspecific answer is: There is no power that our Father in Heaven does not have. Does that mean that he alone has to have this power? No, for Jesus has overcome, Revelation tells us, and now sits with Him together on the throne, and every power the Father has, the Son has also. And not only that, but we are to be joint-heirs with Christ and receive all the Christ has, and have all power with Him.

The High priestly Prayer (John 17) can explain how this is possible without division of power. The disciples are to be one, as Jesus and the Father are one. And they shall be in Christ, as Christ is in the Father, and the Father is in Christ, and likewise shall he be in the disciples so that there is God in all, and all in God. Every god (i.e. everyone who is joint-heir with Christ) acts in complete union with God, the Father. They are all one. There is no division of power.

It also appears from Smith in April 1844 that Jesus was simply an ordinary man who became holy and therefore, became like God the Father. Is this accurate?

No! I think this question comes from a more severe misunderstanding of Mormon theology. Let me explain. Before our universe was created, the Children of God (the Father) lived with God. He is a person of spirit and body, his children were only spirits. Those spirits were not equal, but there were those who were more intelligent and more diligent, and there were those who were less. The most intelligent, the one who was more like the Father than anyone else, was he whom we now call Jesus. Aside from not having a body and not having the same experience, Jesus was like the Father. The Father gave Jesus and the Holy Ghost power over all His creation, because of their character. Together they form the Godhead. The Father told Jesus to create the universe with the aid of an angel called Michael. At the end of the creation time, Michael received a body and was to live a mortal life as Adam, the father of mankind. Adam fell, and he did not enjoy the presence of the Godhead anymore. From that time on, it was Jesus who acted the Father’s will over all the creation. Aside from very few instances (Christ’s baptism, on the mount of transfiguration, the vision of Stephan and Joseph Smith’s First Vision come to mind), it was Jesus who appeared to prophets, and with whom they interacted. This I would hardly call “an ordinary man”.

When he was conceived by Mary, it was through the power of the Holy Ghost that Mary became pregnant with the only begotten of the Father in the flesh. He is the only man on earth who has God the Father as the father of his body.

Further, He was the only one who was able and actually did the atonement and the resurrection.

He alone lived a sinless life.

He was in constant communication with his Father during his mortal life.

That’s hardly what you’d call “an ordinary man”.

Yet, He was able to sin, but chose not to do it. In this He was “just an ordinary man”. He lived a mortal life, like all of us. He did the Father’s will, and thus overcame the world, just as we are told to overcome the world. Likewise, we have to do God’s will and overcome the World, though the power of faith and Christ’s atonement. In this way He is “one of us”. If we overcome, we will sit with Him on God’s throne (Rev 3:21), and we will be like Him (1 John 3:1-3). He is the pattern of man, the “new man”, the spiritual Adam. He is a kind of an archetype of what God wants mankind to be.

Is it accurate to believe that the LDS church claims that faithful followers can actually become gods of their own planets?

I cringe from this definition. We believe that we can become born (generated) Sons of God (John 1:12, 13). We believe that we can be like God (1 John 3:1-3). We can be partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4). We will be joint-heirs (Rom 8:17). We will have full union with the Father (John 17:11, 21-23). We will be above the angels (1 Cor 6:3). We will sit on God’s throne (Rev 3:21). In short, we will receive every power and every glory that God Himself has. What then? Will this be an end to God’s work? We don’t believe so. We believe that we then will continue God’s work. New universes will be created and inhabited, to further God’s glory and power. A good picture lies in the Eastern Orthodox marriage liturgy. Bride and bridegroom are crowned, and then told that the kingdom within the kingdom of God, which they start with this marriage, is to continue to eternity.

Did I misread the BoM that God made people dark skinned because they were evil and sinned against Him?

Yes, but you are not alone in this misreading.

Is it the belief that Jesus spent time in North America? If so, at what point?

That’s true. See Third Nephi in the Book of Mormon. Do you have one?

Is it accurate to state that the LDS believes that it is the only true Christian church and that other denominations (such as the Presbyterians) are apostate and will not be saved?

Yes and no. Do we believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living Church of God? Yes. It is the only church that has the Priesthood of God, and therefore the only organization that can perform baptisms, confirmations, marriages and other ordinations. It is the only church led by God through a prophet.

Do we believe that all Mormons are saved? No.

Do we believe that all non-Mormons will not be saved? Equally no! In fact, we take much time and effort to work for the salvation of those who have not received the benefit of the proper baptism in this world.

Do we believe that there is no truth in other denominations? Heavens, no! There are very good teachings, and very good people in other denominations!

Christ alone is the Judge, and only he can proclaim who is saved, and who is not!

What do you believe about someone in the days of Jesus’ earthly ministry, who had accepted Christ, but rejected the apostles? Do you believe he would be saved?

Also, there’s a different quality in the word “saved”. We believe that almost everybody will be forgiven his sins. Therefore almost everybody will receive a place in a kingdom of glory. Even the murderer will, after the resurrection, receive something that is glorious beyond human comprehension. Yet he will always know that he had the opportunity to be given so much more, and that he has rejected it. This is his personal “hell,” if you will, that he will have full knowledge of his guilt. It is not an outward punishment, but the punishment he gives himself, because he knows that he failed. Those who trusted in Christ, and who looked up to him for their salvation, and who worked out their salvation in Christ with fear and trembling, receive exaltation. They are the joint-heirs with Christ.

We believe that everyone who lives up to the belief and doctrine of his denomination will receive everything that his church promises him – possibly even far more.

Is it true that God the Father has a wife and a physical body?

Physical body: Yes.

A Wife: Many Mormons believe it, but there’s not much evidence for that in the scriptures.

Do Mormons still believe (as Smith taught) that Adam actually created the Earth?

See my answer above: Under the direction of Jesus. The Father is the architect and awarding authority/owner/constructor of the Creation, Jesus is the master builder, and Adam is the headman (or the worker). Who created the world? Was it the architect/awarding authority/owner/constructor? Was it the master builder? Was it the worker/headman? I for my part have never seen a building where they listed the worker as he who built the building. Likewise, I would not say Adam created the world. He helped. He did as he was commanded. But he did not plan nor oversee the work. It’s not “his”.

Do you actually believe that God the Father had sexual relations with Mary?

No! But we do believe that Jesus is literally the son of God, the Father, in the flesh, and not the Son of the Holy Ghost. In Mormon thought, the miracle of his conception is necessary, so that Christ had power over life and death. He inherited this power from his immortal Father, just as he inherited the ability to die from his mortal mother.

Do you believe that Jesus married Mary and Martha and had sexual relations with them and had children?

This was widely believed, mainly because Celsus wrote that Christians believed it and were persecuted for it. The other reason is that for us to be exalted, marriage is necessary, and if Jesus is our example in all, it would be strange that He Himself was not married. But it is not doctrine.

Was Jesus the brother of the devil?

See above, to where you asked about Jesus just being an ordinary man. In the above pre-mortal scenario, one of the Sons of God was Lucifer. He took a very high position, but decided to fight against God and Jesus, because of his pride and envy. From being a Son of God, he became the Father of Lies. He is not more a brother of Jesus than you and me (Heb 2:11).

Do you believe that the blood of Christ is really not enough to save us?

Well, that’s hard to say. We need to accept the blood of Christ and ask God to apply it to us.

As Angelus Silesius wrote:

“Though Christ a thousand times in Bethlehem be born,
If He’s not born in thee thy soul is still forlorn.
The cross on Golgotha will never save thy soul,
The cross in thine own heart alone can make thee whole.”

This does not deny the salvific act of Christ, but we have to accept it, believe in Him, receive the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth, and live faithfully. Only then will the blood of Christ be enough.

Do you believe in the Trinity (one true God in three persons)?

Do you mean the Eastern Orthodox Trinity, the Augustinian Trinity, the Thomian Trinity,…?

We believe that Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three persons, each of them having a will of their own, and a history of their own, but they work together, Son and Holy Ghost submit their will to the Father, so that what He wills, they will also; they are one in heart, will, revelation and power.

Our views are more related to pre-Augustinian thoughts on trinity, though not always totally the same. I, for my part, found nothing in St. Gregory’s writing “On Not Three Gods” that I would disagree with.

As a friend of mine, Dr. David Trobisch of Bangor Theological Seminary (http://www.bts.edu/trobisch/default.htm) once said, “What I see in Mormon thoughts on the doctrine of trinity definitely has a place in modern Christian thought.”

Do you believe in the full deity and humanity of the Christ, Jesus of Nazareth?

Yes, though we do not understand this in a Chalcedonian way.

I hope this is not appearing as some personal attack. Honestly, I want to know what you believe and share it with my kids. I don’t want to misrepresent you.

No, it was not an attack. But yet, misrepresent you will, because there is simply no chance that you get your facts right in, let’s say, the next five years. May I suggest you read How Wide the Divide before you try?

True, I do wish to discredit the LDS, but I don’t want to misquote your statements or beliefs. I will be sharing with our kids on Sunday the 22nd, so it is still about 10 days off. Thanks for your time.

Do you believe that I’d have a chance to learn all there is to tell my kids about Presbyterianism in 10 days, especially if I was antagonistic to it and had read antagonistic sources?

Generally, the questions you ask go to the mysteries, especially the unsolved mysteries, of Mormon faith. Wouldn’t it be better to first cover the basics? Maybe you’d like to ask the missionaries to give you the six discussions that give you all the basics? Tell them that you want to accurately know what Mormons believe, and that you have no intention to join the Church, and I think that they’ll help you.

Let me end this mail with an experience of a friend:

My friend Dr. David Trobisch sat in a meeting of European clergy (Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox), and the lecturer talked at length about Mormons. Suddenly an Orthodox jumped up left the meeting with the words, “I know a Mormon couple, and they live the most Christian life. I wanted to know more about what makes them so good people. That’s why I’m here. Instead, I hear the most outrageous lies about those decent people!” That made David, who knew some Mormons, think, and he decided to write a book about Mormons, in German. He took more than a year attending LDS meetings, taking the discussions, studying Mormon literature and interacting with Mormons in person and on the internet, both in the US and in Europe. He ends his book with the following words:

“We have arrived at the end of a journey. What impressions remain…? Joseph Smith himself remains a puzzle. The literary representations all too often just reflect back the personality and convictions of whoever wrote the descriptions of him. He appears variously as a charlatan, heretic, womanizer, puritan, Free Mason, reformer or saint. I have become firmly convinced that one can best interpret Joseph Smith’s revelations – independent of their meaning – as subjective experiences of God [Gotteserfahrungen], which are really not that unusual in the context of religious phenomena. When Joseph Smith speaks of appearances or voices, he did in fact see and hear that which he reported. How that all fit together, even he didn’t always understand. In the year of his death, Joseph Smith wrote the following about himself: ‘I make no demands of anyone who does not believe my history. If I hadn’t experienced myself what I have experienced, I wouldn’t believe it myself.'”

After that, he was persona non grata for European counter-cultists and some of his peers. Be aware that this could also happen to you, if you avoid misrepresentations of Mormon beliefs.

A last word: You may want to get into contact with David Trobisch yourself. He is a fine guy, an outstanding scholar, and a true Christian, if I ever saw one. Write to him, and he will answer you (you may also ask him about my reputation, if you like).

If you have further questions, feel free to contact me directly, or send them to FAIR.

In Christ

René A. Krywult

Vienna, Austria, Europe

 

SUMMARY RESPONSE FROM KEVIN BARNEY

First, let me commend you for seeking to get Mormon beliefs “from the horse’s mouth,” as it were. I personally don’t mind people disagreeing with me, so long as they don’t intentionally misrepresent me, as almost all counter-cult ministries do. So I appreciate your effort to get solid information on what Mormons believe.

If it were me, I would deep six the list of questions you posed. These are very speculative topics, many grounded in 19th century theology that most Mormons really don’t discuss any more, and since Mormons don’t “do” systematic theology, you are likely to get a variety of opinions on these types of subjects.

I think a preferable approach would be to actually have a local Mormon come and speak to your youth group. I understand that a member of the FAIR list, XXXXXXXXXXXXX, lives in your area and has offered to do so. I hope you will take him up on his offer. This will be a much better way of approaching your topic.

A few months ago I went to Willow Creek, a “mega church” in South Barrington, Illinois, to give a presentation on Mormonism to an adult study group. The presentation lasted an hour, with another hour for questions. The assistant pastor was very clear with his people that this was not to be some sort of an “ambush” situation, but that they genuinely wanted to understand what Mormons believe. I appreciated and respected his attitude, and we had a great time. I would go for understanding first; if you still feel it necessary to argue against Mormon belief with your students, you can do that later.

If it is not going to work to have a live guest and you want something in writing, then I highly recommend the book How Wide the Divide: a Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation, by Intervarsity Press (a Christian publishing house in Downers Grove, Illinois). Instead of dealing with the kinds of fringe issues in your list of questions, this gets right to the heart of things: God, Christ, scripture and salvation. The Evangelical side is laid out by Craig Blomberg, an excellent scholar with the Denver Theological Seminary, and the Mormon side by Stephen Robinson, also a fine scholar with Brigham Young University. And since the views are laid out in alternating presentations, you can line them up and see clearly what the commonalities and differences are. This will make for a much stronger presentation. If it is not available in your local Christian bookstore, we offer it for sale at the store we maintain at the FAIR website, here: How Wide the Divide?

Good luck to you in preparing a truly educational experience for your young charges.

Best regards,

Kevin Barney

 

POINT BY POINT RESPONSE FROM PAUL MCNABB

First of all, thank you for contacting FAIR to gather information about the LDS faith and church. I have found too many people who speak about other faiths with little (or worse, distorted) information about the topic.

I am a member of FAIR, and all of us are just volunteering our time to help respond to questions about what we believe. I was raised in a very active Baptist home in the Midwest, with both parents and all the children having college degrees. I am a computer scientist. I joined the LDS Church when I was in college. I have served in many leadership positions in the Church, including being a member of a stake presidency (which oversees about 10 local churches and helps train bishops in those congregations), being the bishop of a college church for single men and women, and I am now the bishop of a regular congregation of about 300 people.

None of this, of course, gives me any special authority to speak on behalf of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The comments below are from me and only I am responsible for them, but I believe that most Latter-day Saints would agree with most of what I say. No doubt you will get other people responding to your e-mail.

Since the LDS church does not have a fixed creed or written statement of belief other than the scriptures themselves, you will find quite a range of beliefs on certain topics that aren’t considered essential or fundamental.

You are always welcome to contact me directly by e-mail if you would like me to clarify something or to reconcile it with something you may have read or received from someone else.

My understanding at this point is that you believe that God was once a man who through time and perfecting Himself became a god. Is there one main God over all the other gods?

The idea of God “becoming God” is an interesting one. Joseph Smith did mention it in the King Follett sermon. I’m not sure I’d call it an LDS doctrine since we know so little about what that means (see my next comments about the nature of God). When LDS consider it, which is seldom, it is generally relegated to some distant eternity and is treated as an interesting topic but not something fundamental to our faith or part of our belief system or something that God has revealed to us.

If there is a “God over all the other gods” it would be God the Father (see my next discussions). Anything else is just speculation, not LDS doctrine.

Joseph Smith was quoted on July 14, 1861 as saying that God was like us and is now the God of our planet. Does that mean that there are other gods of other planets and God is thus not all-powerful, the one, true God?

Joseph Smith was killed in 1844, so this comment can’t be from him directly. But to respond to the idea expressed, we believe and teach that God is the God of worlds without number. The scriptures teach that through Jesus Christ God made all that was made. We do believe that God is like us in many ways, but He is also omnipotent, omniscient, and perfect in all His attributes. So there are ways in which we are much like God, and there are ways in which we are much different.

For us there is only one God or Godhead, consisting of three persons, God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Ghost. He is and always will be our God and the only One whom we will worship, obey, and serve. We believe that the Trinity is one God in the sense of divinity, will, purpose, majesty, and authority, but we don’t accept the ontological co-substantiation of the three divine Persons of the Godhead.

The concept of “other Gods” is one of those things that is never mentioned in LDS lessons or sermons and for most LDS people it seldom, if ever, crosses their minds. Just about the only place you’ll ever find it mentioned or discussed is in anti-Mormon literature. To LDS members, it is generally considered a big unknown, a theological debating point that we know essentially nothing about. It would be like asking members of your church about how angels interact with electromagnetic fields–it’s something that you know certainly happens, but it is entirely a mental exercise and is irrelevant to faith or salvation (except if someone “goes off the deep end” and starts speculating about spirit vs. matter and tries to fit a theology around it–we’ve all seen people do things like this and get side-tracked from the Gospel).

It also appears from Smith in April 1844 that Jesus was simply an ordinary man who became holy and therefore, became like God the Father. Is this accurate?

No, not really. Like the rest of us, Jesus existed with the Father before coming to earth, and like us He was born and died. However, Joseph Smith and all LDS believe that Jesus is also divine. He was a member of the Godhead prior to His earthly ministry, and He is a member today and always will be. Jesus was Holy before His incarnation, Holy while He walked the earth, and is Holy today. Jesus was God before coming to earth, God while He was here, and God after He left.

Is it accurate to believe that the LDS church claims that faithful followers can actually become gods of their own planets?

No, it is never put in those terms. LDS doctrine is that men and women can become “like god.” The idea of “gods of their own planets” is an extrapolation and isn’t doctrine and isn’t taught in the Church, but I’m sure there are LDS who might believe that.

The Bible clearly teaches that those who are saved become “like He is”, “partakers of the divine nature”, sit on God’s throne with Christ, rule over the nations, become joint-heirs with Christ, become one with the Father as Christ is one with the Father, etc. Clearly this is more than being an angel. LDS refer to this state of being in stronger terms than most other Christians. But we believe that the Father will always be, as the resurrected Christ said, “my father and your father, my God and your God.”

Did I misread the BoM that God made people dark skinned because they were evil and sinned against Him?

Yes, you misread it, or at least misinterpreted it, but some LDS do as well. Most Book of Mormon scholars believe that the phrase about darkness was metaphorical and have shown examples of this usage in ancient near-East writings, including the Bible. In any case, the references are not used to apply to blacks or other ethnic groups, nor is it meant to imply that skin color is a measure of righteousness or acceptability before God.

Is it the belief that Jesus spent time in North America? If so, at what point?

LDS believe that after Jesus was resurrected He appeared to some of the people in the Book of Mormon culture. He taught them for about three days. When He first appeared the people thought He was an angel, until the Savior was introduced with “Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name–hear ye him” and then when the Savior said, “Behold I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.” Based on various Book of Mormon statements it appears that it was less than a year following His crucifixion, probably six to nine months later. Some Book of Mormon scholars place it shortly after his forty-day post-resurrection ministry mentioned in Acts 1:3.

The account is recorded in the Book of Mormon beginning in 3 Nephi 11.

Based on statements made by Jesus at that time, He probably visited other cultures connected with the various tribes of Israel who were scattered, but we have no record of that.

Is it accurate to state that the LDS believes that it is the only true Christian church and that other denominations (such as the Presbyterians) are apostate and will not be saved?

Yes and no. LDS believe that Christ established a church anciently, and that the authority associated with that Church was lost when the original twelve apostles and those that were chosen to replace them were killed. LDS believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only church that has that authority. LDS believe that some of the doctrines taught by other denominations are not correct (the term “apostate” is used sometimes to describe those beliefs). LDS believe that many of the doctrines taught by other denominations are true. LDS do not believe that they have all truth.

LDS believe, however, that many people from many denominations will be saved (and many Mormons won’t be saved) because of their faith in Christ and their submission to Him as Lord and Savior. LDS believe that it is possible to be mistaken about points of doctrine and still be faithful and to be saved and to feel the Holy Spirit active in one’s life.

Is it true that God the Father has a wife and a physical body?

Yes. We believe that Jesus Christ was resurrected, really, not just seemingly so. He still has a physical body associated with His being. LDS do not believe this limits Christ in some way or detracts in any way from His Being or majesty or divinity. LDS believe that the Father also has a physical body. LDS believe that humanity was created in God’s image, male and female, and that there is a “Heavenly Mother.” Other than this, there is no specific doctrine or knowledge. Other than the existence of “Heavenly Mother” there is no other doctrine. We do not worship her, pray to her, or involve her in any rite or ordinance–we simply acknowledge her existence. Unless God reveals something else, we’ll have to wait until after we die to find out anything more.

Do Mormons still believe (as Smith taught) that Adam actually created the Earth?

The term “Adam” was used by many early church leaders as a title, not just as the name of the father of Cain and Abel. Joseph Smith taught, and LDS still believe, that God the Father directed that the earth be created, and that Jesus Christ was the one who actually created all that the Father willed. However, LDS also believe that Adam, like all humans, lived as a spirit child of Heavenly Father before coming to this earth. As a spirit child of Heavenly Father, Adam (and maybe others for all we know) assisted Christ in some way in the creation of the earth.

Do you actually believe that God the Father had sexual relations with Mary?

No. LDS doctrine is that Jesus is the Son of God the Father, born of the Virgin Mary through the power of the Holy Ghost. We know the conception was a miracle and we know nothing else about the mechanics. Early and modern leaders have stressed that Christ is the Son of God the Father (in the same way that we are sons of our earthly fathers) and that the Holy Ghost is notthe father of Jesus although Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Ghost. I don’t know any LDS that believes that God the Father had sexual relations with Mary, but it is possible that people believe that. It may be that some nineteenth century LDS believed that as well, but the idea of sexual relations between God the Father and Mary isn’t and wasn’t Church doctrine.

Do you believe that Jesus married Mary and Martha and had sexual relations with them and had children?

There is no LDS doctrine one way or the other on this. The scriptures are silent on the matter. It is never mentioned in LDS sermons or lessons, but most people that study it usually think that Jesus was probably married. It was an expected thing for all Jewish men–being single at 30 would have been something that Christ’s critics would have jumped on, but they were silent about it. It is purely speculation and anyone who tried to teach it (Christ either as married or unmarried) as an LDS doctrine would be corrected. LDS believe that marriage is commanded and that sex is a wonderful gift from God, so there is no stigma associated with sex for us. So if Christ was married and has sex with His wife, LDS wouldn’t see that in any way demeaning or beneath His Holy calling. Some nineteenth-century Church leaders believed that Jesus was married, but it wasn’t a doctrine then and it isn’t one now–just speculation. Jewish law allowed polygyny, so I suppose it is possible that He could have had multiple wives and still have been in harmony with both civil law and God’s law. Whether Mary or Martha or both were wives of Jesus is unknown.

Was Jesus the brother of the devil?

Yes, but not in the way that it is usually portrayed. LDS believe that all humans and angels are “sons of God.” Since Jesus is also the Son of God, His Firstborn, His Only Begotten in the Flesh, then Jesus Christ is the brother of all of us. Of course He is our Lord, Master, Savior, Redeemer, and God, so that relationship of “brother” needs to be understood properly. So yes, Jesus and Satan are brothers, but only in the sense that all the angels and humans are brothers of Jesus. We don’t mean it in a sense that elevates Satan or lowers Jesus. Normally people who bring up this fact do it for the shock value rather than explain the fundamental LDS idea of all of us being children of God.

Do you believe that the blood of Christ is really not enough to save us?

No and yes. We believe that it is only through Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice and the spilling of His blood can we be forgiven, justified, sanctified, and saved. The “yes” part comes from the fact that not everyone will necessarily be saved even though Christ shed His blood for all and the Bible says God wants all to be saved. A person must have true faith in Jesus Christ for that blood to have an effect on one’s salvation. Statements by early LDS leaders to try to show the contrary are always taken out of context.

Do you believe in the Trinity (one true God in three persons)?

Yes, but as I said before we don’t believe in the Nicene novelty of “of one substance” but rather the earlier Christian idea of “of the same substance.” We believe in one God of three Persons.

Do you believe in the full deity and humanity of the Christ, Jesus of Nazareth?

Yes.

I hope this is not appearing as some personal attack. Honestly, I want to know what you believe and share it with my kids. I don’t want to misrepresent you. True, I do wish to discredit the LDS, but I don’t want to misquote your statements or beliefs. I will be sharing with our kids on Sunday the 22nd, so it is still about 10 days off. Thanks for your time.

Thanks again for asking. I hope this helps. I’d be interested to see what other answers you get. As you’ll find out, there is no “systematic theology” for Latter-day Saints, and there is quite a range of beliefs among members of the Church despite all the suggestions of rigid controls by a Church hierarchy. There is a lot God hasn’t revealed.

XXXXXX, one thing I wanted to say is that your choice of questions seems to be way off the mark. Most LDS would be somewhat puzzled by this choice of issues to discuss. It would be like someone contacting you about explaining your religion to a youth group, and asking you questions about the origin of God, the problem of evil, whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from just the Father or both the Father and the Son, whether baptism is more appropriately done by immersion or sprinkling, the fate of those who never heard about Jesus in this life, etc. You’ve seemed to pick up the edges of LDS thinking, the stuff that people speculate about but which is they know isn’t too important, rather than the essence of what LDS believe.

Just because an LDS Church leader said something once (or more often), even in a sermon, doesn’t make it true or an LDS doctrine. It doesn’t even mean that the leader believed it–some things were recorded wrong, some things were pure speculation at the time and the person later felt differently, some things were spoken in hyperbole, etc. You’ll find a lot of things reported to be LDS belief with a quote from Elder So-and-so or President So-and-so and the LDS people will say “so what, we don’t believe that” and the other people insist that it must somehow be accepted as LDS doctrine. Orson Pratt, a nineteenth-century LDS Church leader, was particularly prone to speculation in his sermons and many of his sermons were publicly denounced (with his acceptance) and still they are pulled out as “evidence” for what Mormons “really” believe.

So I appreciate your willingness to hear our response to some of these obscure issues.

Have you ever read How Wide the Divide?: A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation by Blomberg and Robinson? If you haven’t, you should read it before giving your class. They really get to the meat of the differences (and similarities) and leave aside the strange speculative areas.

Contact me if you’d like.

Paul

 

SUMMARY RESPONSE FROM TOM MATKIN

Thank you for your questions with respect to LDS beliefs. I am a volunteer with the FAIR organization. I do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in this communication, nor do I represent FAIR. My answer is merely my personal opinion. However, I have some experience with the LDS Church and your questions have been forwarded to me and others so that we can provide you with answers. I’m sure that others will also respond, but I wanted to make a general response because of the unusual nature of your request. If I have it right you intend to make a systematic refutation of the beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to your students and also to a young woman who may already belong to Mormon faith.

One of our Articles of Faith as set forth by the prophet Joseph Smith reads as follows: “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”

I am therefore going to question the fairness and wisdom of what you are doing in general, rather than discussing each of your questions. I’m sure other FAIR volunteers will be happy to address your issues point by point.

There is a famous “death song” statement by the great Tecumseh that sums up how I feel about attacking other faiths. I’m sure you have read it, but I’ll quote it here for you (it’s really only the first few lines that apply here, but it’s all good and interesting, so I’ll include the whole statement):

“So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and its purpose in the service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great divide. Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all people and grovel to none. When you arise in the morning give thanks for the food and for the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself. Abuse no one and no thing, for abuse turns the wise ones to fools and robs the spirit of its vision. When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home.”

I respect your religion, and I would therefore demand, in the spirit of Tecumseh’s advice, that you respect mine and not seek to “refute” or “discredit” it to the youngsters in your charge. You cannot do that without misrepresenting it. If you want to teach your children about what we believe I’m sure that local representatives of our Church would be happy to come to your group and teach them what we believe. But since your stated intention is otherwise than respectful, I think it would be wise for you abandon your whole project.

I’m sure you know that we believe firmly in the Bible and that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior, and that He suffered so that we could be redeemed from both death and sin. He taught us to love all men, to be kind, and to be honest. I believe that Jesus Christ was resurrected and that He returned to this earth and taught not only His flock in Jerusalem but also His “other sheep” (as mentioned in the New Testament) on the American continent. The account of this visit is in the Book of Mormon, which is another witness of Jesus Christ. If you teach your children anything about our Church, tell them that we believe that Christ loves all men and that he visited more than just the Jews in Jerusalem. I hope that one day you and they will truly want to know more about the Savior and what he taught in the Book of Mormon.

Your brother in Christ,

Tom Matkin