Criticism of Mormonism/Books/An Insider's View of Mormon Origins/Chapter 7

1. REDIRECTTemplate:Test3

Response to claims made in "Chapter 7: Priesthood Restoration"

Claims made in "Chapter 6: Witnesses to the Golden Plates"

A FAIR Analysis of: An Insider's View of Mormon Origins A work by author: Grant Palmer

Claims made in "Chapter 8: The First Vision"

Claim

• The author claims that the "original" view was that the revelation received through the Urim and Thummim gave Joseph and Oliver the authority to baptize. The author quotes Lucy Mack Smith's 1845 preliminary manuscript:

[T]hey immediately went down to the susquehana river and obeyed the mandate given them through the urim and Thummim[. A]s they were on their return to the house they overheard samuel [Smith] in a secluded spot engaged in secret prayer[.] They had now received authority to baptize ... and they [then] spoke to Samual who went withe them straightway to the water and was baptized.

Author's source(s)

• Lucy Smith's Preliminary Manuscript, dictated to Martha Jane Coray, 1844-45, quoted in Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 1:381.

Response

• From Lucy's perspective, this is exactly what she would have seen.
• From Joseph Smith's 1838 history (written 7 years prior to Lucy's 1845 manuscript), this is what was written:

71 Accordingly we went and were baptized. I baptized him first, and afterwards he baptized me—after which I laid my hands upon his head and ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood, and afterwards he laid his hands on me and ordained me to the same Priesthood—for so we were commanded.
72 The messenger who visited us on this occasion and conferred this Priesthood upon us, said that his name was John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament, and that he acted under the direction of Peter, James and John, who held the keys of the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which Priesthood, he said, would in due time be conferred on us, and that I should be called the first Elder of the Church, and he (Oliver Cowdery) the second. It was on the fifteenth day of May, 1829, that we were ordained under the hand of this messenger, and baptized. (Joseph Smith—History 1:71-72.

• How is it that the author believes that an account written seven years after Joseph stated that he had received the priesthood now represents the "original view" of the event?
• Authority received through revelation?

Claim

• David Whitmer never believed that an angel had given Joseph and Oliver the authority to baptize:

Oliver stated to me in Josephs presence that they had baptized each other seeking by that to fulfill the command ... I never heard that an Angel had ordained Joseph and Oliver to the Aaronic priesthood until the year 1834[, 183]5[,] or [183]6-in Ohio.

Author's source(s)

• David Whitmer, interview by Zenas H. Gurley Jr., 14 Jan. 1885, typescript, LDS archives. See Edward Stevenson Journal, 9 Feb. 1886, cited in Joseph Grant Stevenson, Stevenson Family History (Provo, UT: by the Author, 1955), 1: 177-78.

Response
 FAIR WIKI EDITORS: Check sources

Claim

•  Author's quote: In light of the David Whitmer and Lucy Smith statements, Joseph intended to keep his and Oliver's baptisms and receipt of authority to baptize from their enemies, not from devoted believers.

Author's source(s)

• Joseph Smith-History 1:74-75.

Response

• If you intend to keep something secret, the best way is not to tell a large group of people, even if they are your supporters.

Claim

• An angelic ordination to the higher priesthood is not mentioned by Joseph at the time the church was organized.

Author's source(s)

• Book of Commandments 24:3-4, 32-35; D&C 20:2-3, 38-45.

Response

• Priesthood/Restoration/Melchizedek/Date

Claim

• The book claims that term "elder" and "apostle" meant the same thing originally. Anyone who was ordained an elder was considered an apostle.

Author's source(s)

• Book of Commandments 24:32; D&C 20:38; 21:1,10-11.
• Joseph Smith and John Whitmer to Colesville Saints, 2 Dec. 1830, quoted in Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 1:19.
• Ezra Booth to Edward Partridge, 20 Sept. 1831; Sidney Rigdon to Ohio Brethren, ca. 4 Jan. 1831, in Eber D. Howe, Mormonism Unvailed (Painesville, OH, 1834), 110, 208. (Affidavits examined)
• Jared Carter Journal, Sept. 1831, 35

Response
 FAIR WIKI EDITORS: Check sources

Claim

• The book claims that Alma received authority to baptize through the "Spirit" - not by laying on of hands.

Author's source(s)

• Moses 5:4-9; 6:51-7:1.

Response
 FAIR WIKI EDITORS: Check sources

Claim

• Authority is claimed to be received only through the "Spirit of the Lord" rather than by laying on of hands.

Author's source(s)

• Ex. 3:1-12; 40:13-16; 1 Sam. 3:1-18; 9:15-17; 10:1; 16:1-13; Isa. 6:1-10; Jer. 1:1-10; Ezek. 1:1,26-2:3; Zech. 1:1-16; 1 Ne. 1:4-8, 18-2:3; 2 Ne. 5:26; Jac. 1:18.

Response

• The apostles transferred authority by the laying on of hands

Claim

• The Bible and Book of Commandments do not mention the laying on of hands by "otherworldly beings."

Author's source(s)

• No source provided.

Response

• Priesthood/Restoration  ^{[needs work]}

Claim

• Early missionaries said that they had been called of God, but did not claim that their "authority originated with heavenly messengers."

Author's source(s)

• BofC 5:2; 10:2, 11; 11:2; 12:2; 15:30; d. D&C 6:4; 11:4,27; 12:3-4; 14:4; 18:28.

Response

• Priesthood/Restoration

Claim

• The Whitmer family and Oliver Cowdery accepted Hiram Page's revelations as authoritative. Since Oliver was said to have received authority directly from heavenly messengers, he ought to have recognized that Hiram Page didn't have the keys.

Author's source(s)

• Jessee, Papers of Joseph Smith, 1:322-23; D&C 28
• Donald Q. Cannon and Lyndon W. Cook, eds., Far West Record: Minutes of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1830-1844

Response

• Joseph Smith/Seer stones/Hiram Page's revelations ^{[needs work]}

Claim

• D&C 84 is claimed to not refer to the physical laying on of hands by an angel.
•  Author's quote: John the Baptist was "ordained by the angel of God at the time he was eight days old ... to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews," while Moses, Jethro, Caleb, Elihu ,Jeremy, Gad, and Esaias all received priesthood authority "under the hand" of men, "and Esaias received it under the hand of God." These examples do not refer to the actual physical laying on of hands by an angel...

Author's source(s)

• D&C 84:28, 6-12; Moses 8:19

Response

•  Internal contradiction: The author takes passages from scripture that state "ordained by the angel of God" and "under the hand of God," which directly contradict his previous assertions that authority was not transferred by heavenly beings, and then states that these examples "do not refer to the actual physical laying on of hands by an angel!"
• It appears that the author will be satisfied with nothing less than an explicit description of hands being used.
• Furthermore, in the footnote related to Moses 8:19, which states "And the Lord ordained Noah after his own order," the author actually states that this "probably refers to an ordination by a mortal being."

Claim

• Joseph's statement the his priesthood office had "been conferred upon me by the ministring of the Angel of God, by his own will and by the voice of this Church," is claimed by the author not to be an "unequivocal assertion of authority by angelic ordination."

Author's source(s)

• Kirtland Council Minutes, (12 Feb. 1834),27, LDS archives; quoted in Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 1:32.

Response

• It is difficult to imagine how much more unequivocal Joseph needed to be in his statement in order to satisfy the author. The prophet clearly states that the office was "conferred" upon him by "the ministering of the Angel of God." The author wishes to make every source quote fit his notion that there was no need for a physical "laying on of hands" to transfer authority.
• From the cited source:

"Bro. Joseph then rose and said: I shall now endeavor to set forth before this council, the dignity of the office which has been conferred upon me by the ministring of the Angel of God, by his own will and by the voice of this Church."

Claim

• The restoration of priesthood from an angel was a spiritual vision rather than a physical event, based upon a statement by Oliver Cowdery that this even occurred "[w]hile we were in the heavenly vision."

Author's source(s)

• The Book of Patriarchal Blessings 1:8-9, quoted in Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 2:453.
• Joseph Smith, sermon of 10 Mar. 1844, in Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook, eds., The Words of Joseph Smith: The Contemporary Accounts of the Nauvoo Discourses of the Prophet Joseph, 334.

Response

• Priesthood/Restoration

Claim

• The author claims that Joseph invented the story of the angel restoring the priesthood to counter Hurlbut's accusations.

Response

• Specific works/The Hurlbut affidavits

Claim

• The events surrounding the priesthood ordination are claimed to have been reinterpreted to bolster Joseph's status.

Response

• Priesthood/Restoration

Further reading

Template code	Inserts this reference	Click to edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: 8: The Mormon Proposition}}	To learn more box:responses to: 8: The Mormon Proposition	edit
{{To learn more box:''Under the Banner of Heaven''}}	To learn more about responses to: Under the Banner of Heaven	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Robert Price}}	To learn more about responses to: Robert Price	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Ankerberg and Weldon}}	To learn more about responses to: Ankerberg and Weldon	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Ashamed of Joseph}}	To learn more about responses to: Ashamed of Joseph	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Beckwith and Moser}}	To learn more about responses to: Beckwith and Moser	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Beckwith and Parrish}}	To learn more about responses to: Beckwith and Parrish	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Benjamin Park}}	To learn more about responses to: Benjamin Park	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Bible versus Joseph Smith}}	To learn more about responses to: Bible versus Joseph Smith	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Bible versus Book of Mormon}}	To learn more about responses to: Bible versus Book of Mormon	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: ''Big Love''}}	To learn more about responses to: Big Love	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Brett Metcalfe}}	To learn more about responses to: Brett Metcalfe	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Bill Maher}}	To learn more about responses to: Bill Maher	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Bruce H. Porter}}	To learn more about responses to: Bruce H. Porter	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Carol Wang Shutter}}	To learn more about responses to: Carol Wang Shutter	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: CES Letter}}	To learn more about responses to: CES Letter	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Charles Larson}}	To learn more about responses to: Charles Larson	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Christopher Nemelka}}	To learn more about responses to: Christopher Nemelka	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Colby Townshed}}	To learn more about responses to: Colby Townshed	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Contender Ministries}}	To learn more about responses to: Contender Ministries	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Crane and Crane}}	To learn more about responses to: Crane and Crane	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: D. Michael Quinn}}	To learn more about responses to: D. Michael Quinn	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Dan Vogel}}	To learn more about responses to: Dan Vogel	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: David John Buerger}}	To learn more about responses to: David John Buerger	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: David Persuitte}}	To learn more about responses to: David Persuitte	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Denver Snuffer}}	To learn more about responses to: Denver Snuffer	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Dick Bauer}}	To learn more about responses to: Dick Bauer	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Duwayne R Anderson}}	To learn more about responses to: Duwayne R Anderson	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Earl Wunderli}}	To learn more about responses to: Earl Wunderli	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Ed Decker}}	To learn more about responses to: Ed Decker	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Erikson and Giesler}}	To learn more about responses to: Erikson and Giesler	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Ernest Taves}}	To learn more about responses to: Ernest Taves	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Fawn Brodie}}	To learn more about responses to: Fawn Brodie	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: George D Smith}}	To learn more about responses to: George D Smith	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Grant Palmer}}	To learn more about responses to: Grant Palmer	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Hank Hanegraaff}}	To learn more about responses to: Hank Hanegraaff	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Hurlbut-Howe}}	To learn more about responses to: Hurlbut-Howe	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: James Brooke}}	To learn more about responses to: James Brooke	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: James Spencer}}	To learn more about responses to: James Spencer	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: James White}}	To learn more about responses to: James White	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Jerald and Sandra Tanner}}	To learn more about responses to: Jerald and Sandra Tanner	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Jesus Christ-Joseph Smith or Search for the Truth DVD}}	To learn more about responses to: Jesus Christ-Joseph Smith or Search for the Truth DVD	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: John Dehlin}}	To learn more about responses to: John Dehlin	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Jonathan Neville}}	To learn more about responses to: Jonathan Neville	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Kurt Van Gorden}}	To learn more about responses to: Kurt Van Gorden	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Laura King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery}}	To learn more about responses to: Laura King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Loftes Tryk aka Lofte Payne}}	To learn more about responses to: Loftes Tryk aka Lofte Payne	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Luke WIlson}}	To learn more about responses to: Luke WIlson	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Marquardt and Walters}}	To learn more about responses to: Marquardt and Walters	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Martha Beck}}	To learn more about responses to: Martha Beck	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Mcgregor Ministries}}	To learn more about responses to: Mcgregor Ministries	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: McKeever and Johnson}}	To learn more about responses to: McKeever and Johnson	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: New Approaches}}	To learn more about responses to: New Approaches to the Book of Mormon	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Richard Abanes}}	To learn more about responses to: Richard Abanes	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Richard Van Wagoner}}	To learn more about responses to: Richard Van Wagoner	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Richard and Joan Ostling}}	To learn more about responses to: Richard and Joan Ostling	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Rick Grunger}}	To learn more about responses to: Rick Grunger	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Robert Ritner}}	To learn more about responses to: Robert Ritner	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Rod Meldrum}}	To learn more about responses to: Rod Meldrum	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Roger I Anderson}}	To learn more about responses to: Roger I Anderson	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Ronald V. Huggins}}	To learn more about responses to: Ronald V. Huggins	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Sally Denton}}	To learn more about responses to: Sally Denton	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Simon Southerton}}	To learn more about responses to: Simon Southerton	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Thomas Murphy}}	To learn more about responses to: Thomas Murphy	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Todd Compton}}	To learn more about responses to: Todd Compton	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Vernal Holley}}	To learn more about responses to: Vernal Holley	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Walter Martin}}	To learn more about responses to: Walter Martin	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Wesley Walters}}	To learn more about responses to: Wesley Walters	edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Will Bagley}}	To learn more about responses to: Will Bagley	edit