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Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Conflicts with Science
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Response to MormonThink page "Conflicts with Science"
| Blacks and the Priesthood | A FAIR Analysis of: MormonThink A work by author: Anonymous
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The Greek Psalter Translation |
- "The Sun Gets Its Light from Kolob"
- "From ancient dead animals and plants, it takes millions of years for oil and coal to form"
- "Age of the Earth and Dinosaurs"
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
The leaders of the church, as well as gospel doctrine teachers the world over, have taught that many Biblical events and beliefs that people have had for centuries are indeed true, historical events.
FairMormon commentary
- Correct. FAIR believes that these Biblical events are true, historical events as well.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
The LDS church teaches that the flood of Noah was a literal global and worldwide event, and that the flood was the Earth's baptism...."we Latter-day Saints believe that Noah was an actual man, a prophet of God, who preached repentance and raised a voice of warning, built an ark, gathered his family and a host of animals onto the ark, and floated safely away as waters covered the entire earth. We are assured that these events actually occurred by the multiple testimonies of God’s prophets."
January 1998 Ensign, The Flood and the Tower of Babel, Donald W. Parry
Our comment: How much clearer can you get? The Ensign article makes it extremely clear what the LDS position is on Noah and the Flood. [The Ensign articles are all approved by the First presidency and almost considered scripture.]
FairMormon commentary
- The only item at issue here is that the Flood waters "covered the entire earth." We do believe that Noah was an actual man, a prophet of God, built and ark and floated safely away during a catastrophic flood. Whether the Flood covered the entire globe, or whether it only covered Noah's world, it makes absolutely no difference.
- If everything in the Ensign were "almost considered scripture," then one would be required to accept John Sorenson's 1984 articles on a limited Book of Mormon geography, despite the fact that most Church members believe in a hemispheric geography.
Additional information
- Global or local Flood—How do we deal with the fact that there is no scientific evidence of a worldwide flood? How can the scriptures and prophets teach of a worldwide flood, when this contradicts the evidence? The biodiversity of plants and animals on the earth could not have occurred within the span of a few thousand years. Did the continents separate during the flood of Noah? Doctrine and Covenants 133:23–24 seems to imply that they did. How do we reconcile this to scientific fact? Didn't Brigham Young, John Taylor and Orson Pratt teach that the Flood was the baptism of the Earth? (Link)
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Even the LDS apologists admit that the church clearly teaches that story of Noah was a real event and it was a global flood:
Without a doubt, the flood is always treated as global event as it is taught by Church leaders. This is not likely to ever change, since it is based directly upon a straightforward reading of the scriptures.
FairMormon commentary
- The author claims that believers "admitted" something —Critics claim that apologists only "admit" facts, while critics "disclose the truth."
- It is correct that this is likely never to change, since a belief in either a global or local flood does not alter the teaching that Noah was an actual prophet who saved his family from a catastrophic flood that wiped out all those with whom he associated.
- The accumulation of additional scientific information have led some to conclude that a local flood — one limited to the area in which Noah lived — is the best explanation of the available data. People of either view, or neither, can be members in good standing.
- Like other Christians, Latter-day Saints can hold different views on the issue of whether Noah's flood was local or global. Members of any given LDS congregation may have of a variety of points of view, and many have no firm opinion one way or the other.
- A belief in either a global or local flood is not a requirement for Latter-day Saints; traditionally, many earlier members and leaders endorsed the global flood views common in society and Christendom generally.
Additional information
- Global or local Flood—How do we deal with the fact that there is no scientific evidence of a worldwide flood? How can the scriptures and prophets teach of a worldwide flood, when this contradicts the evidence? The biodiversity of plants and animals on the earth could not have occurred within the span of a few thousand years. Did the continents separate during the flood of Noah? Doctrine and Covenants 133:23–24 seems to imply that they did. How do we reconcile this to scientific fact? Didn't Brigham Young, John Taylor and Orson Pratt teach that the Flood was the baptism of the Earth? (Link)
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
[A] brief summary of problems with the Global Flood: 1. Ice. 2. Genetic Diversity. 3. Worldwide distribution of species. 4. Fish and coral. 5. No room on the ark. 6. No geological record. 7.Where did the water go? 8. How did the carnivores survive? ....Critic's comment: The idea of a universal flood simply does not stand up to any sort of scrutiny. How can an honest person deny his/her God-given intelligence and seriously believe in such an obvious myth? And setting aside the impossibilities of Noah's tale for a minute, are we really to believe that every single inhabitant of the earth (save 8 people) were all so absolutely wicked, including the children, that they all deserved to be killed? And who would want to worship a God anyway that would murder all but 8 of his children on earth because they had grown too wicked?
FairMormon commentary
- The author is making mutually exclusive claims: —When critics need an attack against the Church, any excuse will do, even if they are mutually self-contradictory: if one argument is true, the other cannot be.
Pay close attention to this bizarre contradiction: "How can an honest person deny his/her God-given intelligence and seriously believe in such an obvious myth?...And who would want to worship a God anyway that would murder all but 8 of his children..." The critic argues that you must by denying your "God-given" intelligence if you believe in God! - The author is using sarcastic reasoning —The critic makes sarcastic claims that are intended to generate an emotional reaction.
The argument "who would want to worship a God...that would murder..." isn't an argument against Latter-day Saints, but against a belief in any sort of supreme being. The critics simply don't want you to believe in God at all. - Believers not being honest —Critics imply that if you do not accept their view, that you are "intellectually dishonest."
The critic implies that the believer is dishonest for believing in the Bible. - We agree that the evidence is against a global flood, which is why some believe that the flood was local in scope. This does not, however, place us at odds with the Church since we believe that Noah existed, that he was a prophet, and that he and his family were saved from a catastrophic flood by following God's commandments.
"The Sun Gets Its Light from Kolob"
MormonThink states...
"The Sun Gets Its Light from Kolob"
FairMormon Response
Relationship between Kolob and the Sun
Jump to details:
- Question: What is the light which comes from the presence of God?
- Question: Does the Book of Abraham state that the sun gets its photons from Kolob?
"From ancient dead animals and plants, it takes millions of years for oil and coal to form"
MormonThink states...
"The fossils of animals and plants that have lived and died on this earth are thousands and millions of years old. From ancient dead animals and plants, it takes millions of years for oil and coal to form."
FairMormon Response
Latter-day Saints and the Bible |
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Reliability of the Bible |
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Creation |
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Genesis |
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Understanding the Bible |
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Cultural issues |
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The Bible and the Book of Mormon |
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What does the Church teach on the subject of death before the Fall of Adam?
Lehi said that "all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created"
The LDS Bible Dictionary states that, "Latter-day revelation teaches that there was no death on this earth before the Fall of Adam. Indeed, death entered the world as a direct result of the Fall (2 Ne. 2꞉22; Moses 6꞉48). 2 Nephi 2꞉22 describes how Adam and Eve became subject to physical death, when the Book of Mormon prophet Lehi taught that
if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. (2 Nephi 2꞉22)
Because this is the only scripture that indicates this, it is difficult to interpret the meaning of "all things." Does it mean "all things in the garden", or "all things on the entire earth", or something else?
The second scripture referenced, Moses 6꞉48, describes how "spiritual death" entered the world:
Behold Satan hath come among the children of men, and tempteth them to worship him; and men have become carnal, sensual, and devilish, and are shut out from the presence of God.
Current Church manuals take a cautionary approach to interpreting 2 Nephi 2꞉22
Current Church manuals take a cautionary approach to interpreting this verse by considering only how it affected Adam and Eve. For example, from Gospel Principles manual, page 28:
| 1979 Gospel Principles | 2014 Gospel Principles | Comment |
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| Adam and Eve were foreordained to become the parents of the human race. | Adam and Eve were foreordained to become our first parents. | Instead of being the "parents of the human race," Adam and Eve are now "our first parents." We are only concerned with Adam. |
| She was called Eve because she was the mother of all living (see Moses 4꞉26) | Eve was "the mother of all living" (Moses 4꞉26) | The phrase "mother of all living" is now in quotes to indicate a direct quote from Moses 4꞉26. |
| She was given to Adam because God said "that is was not good that man should be alone." | God brought Adam and Eve together in marriage because "it was not good that the man should be alone." | |
| When Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden, they were not yet mortal. They were not able to have children. There was no death. | When Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden, they were not yet mortal. In this state, "they would have had no children" (2 Nephi 2꞉23). There was no death. | Again, the text is changed to indicate that scripture is being quoted. The original statement that they "were not able to have children" is changed to the scriptural statement that they "would have had no children." The specific reason why they would not have had children is not indicated, whereas previously it was stated that they were incapable of having children in their "pre-Fall" state. |
| God commanded them to have children and learn to control the earth. | God commanded them to have children. | The assumption that Adam and Eve were in "control" of the entire earth has been completely removed. |
| Because Adam and Eve had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the Lord sent them out of the Garden of Eden into the world as we now know it. | Because Adam and Eve had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the Lord sent them out of the Garden of Eden into the world. | The assumption that the world outside the garden was "as we now know it" has been completely removed. |
More recently, in 2016 the Church's official magazine for youth, the New Era:
There were no spirit children of Heavenly Father on the earth before Adam and Eve were created. In addition, "for a time they lived alone in a paradisiacal setting where there was neither human death nor future family. (emphasis added)" [1]
Was there no death on the entire earth before the Fall?
The Church does not take an official position on this issue
J. Reuben Clark |
This is one of many issues about which the Church has no official position. As President J. Reuben Clark taught under assignment from the First Presidency:
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Harold B. Lee |
Harold B. Lee was emphatic that only one person can speak for the Church:
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First Presidency |
This was recently reiterated by the First Presidency (who now approves all statements published on the Church's official website):
In response to a letter "received at the office of the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" in 1912, Charles W. Penrose of the First Presidency wrote:
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There is overwhelming geological evidence of death having occurred on the earth for many millions of years
There is overwhelming geological evidence of death having occurred on the earth for many millions of years. For example, oil deposits are formed from the decomposed remains of ancient plants and animals.
This is where some accounts of Church teachings appear to contradict science, since many Latter-day Saint leaders and Church manuals have taught that there was no physical death on the entire earth prior to the fall of Adam.
No death anywhere?
This interpretation has been shared by many Church authors, including President Joseph Fielding Smith and Elder Bruce R. McConkie.[1] Consequently, the concept of no death before the Fall on the entire earth has made its way into many Church instructional manuals. For example, the LDS Bible Dictionary, which was included as an addition to the LDS edition of the King James Bible in 1979, includes the following statement that "death entered the world" as a result of the Fall:
Latter-day revelation teaches that there was no death on this earth for any forms of life before the fall of Adam. Indeed, death entered the world as a direct result of the fall (2 Nephi 2꞉22; Moses 6꞉48). [2]
The current edition of the Bible Dictionary, however, has a lightly edited entry "Fall of Adam":
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Note that some aspects focus the death upon Adam and Eve.
There are other aspects that could be read to imply a wider impact (esp., "the whole creation fell and became mortal".)
Death for other created things?
Other leaders have seen pre-Fall death of plants and/or animals as compatible with LDS doctrine, with the doctrine of "no death" applying only to Adam and Eve within the garden, and not the wider physical creation.
The important point to remember is that the question of the scope of "death before the Fall" does not affect our salvation, and is simply an academic exercise.
Bible Dictionary editor Elder McConkie pointed out—the Bible Dictionary is neither infallible, nor an arbiter of Church doctrine:
[As for the] "Joseph Smith Translation items, the chapter headings, Topical Guide, Bible Dictionary, footnotes, the Gazeteer, and the maps. None of these are perfect; they do not of themselves determine doctrine; there have been and undoubtedly now are mistakes in them. Cross-references, for instance, do not establish and never were intended to prove that parallel passages so much as pertain to the same subject. They are aids and helps only." [4]
The Bible Dictionary itself also cautions against assuming that its contents reflect "an official or revealed endorsement by the Church of the doctrinal, historical, cultural, and other matters set forth." [5]
One must also not overlook an earlier debate on the issue of "pre-Adamites" between Elder Brigham H. Roberts of the Seventy and then-Elder Joseph Fielding Smith was brought to an end at the instruction of the First Presidency. Part of the debate centered around whether there was death prior to the Fall. At the request of the First Presidency, Elder James E. Talmage gave a talk in the tabernacle, entitled "The Earth and Man." In it, he spoke of fossilized animals and plants and said:
These lived and died, age after age, while the earth was yet unfit for human habitation.
With the approval of the First Presidency, this address was published in the Deseret News, as a Church pamphlet, and later in The Instructor.[6] Clearly, then, a universal lack of death prior to the fall is not a necessary belief within the Church, since leaders and members have held both positions.
Elder Talmage's position was made quite clear in a letter he wrote in response to a question about these matters:
I cannot agree with your conception that there was no death of plants and animals anywhere upon this earth prior to the transgression of Adam, unless we assume that the history of Adam and Eve dates back many hundreds of thousands of years. The trouble with some theologians—even including many of our own good people—is that they undertake to fix the date of Adam's transgression as being approximately 4000 years before Christ and therefore about 5932 years ago. If Adam was placed upon the earth only that comparatively short time ago the rocks clearly demonstrated that life and death have been in existence and operative in this earth for ages prior to that time. [7]
The First Presidency eventually instructed the general authorities:
Both parties [i.e., Elders Smith and Roberts] make the scripture and the statements of men who have been prominent in the affairs of the Church the basis of their contention; neither has produced definite proof in support of his views…
Upon the fundamental doctrines of the Church we are all agreed. Our mission is to bear the message of the restored Gospel to the people of the world. Leave geology, biology, archaeology and anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the souls of mankind, to scientific research, while we magnify our calling in the realm of the Church.
We can see no advantage to be gained by a continuation of the discussion to which reference is here made, but on the contrary are certain that it would lead to confusion, division and misunderstanding if carried further. Upon one thing we should all be able to agree namely, that presidents Joseph F. Smith, John Winder and Anthon Lund were right when they said: "Adam is the primal parent of our race. [8]
Reflecting on this episode, Elder Talmage wrote in his diary:
...Involved in this question is that of the beginning of life upon the earth, and as to whether there was death either of animal or plant before the fall of Adam, on which proposition Elder Smith was very pronounced in denial and Elder Roberts equally forceful in the affirmative. As to whether Preadamite races existed upon the earth there has been much discussion among some of our people of late. The decision reached by the First Presidency, and announced to this morning's assembly, was in answer to a specific question that obviously the doctrine of the existence of races of human beings upon the earth prior to the fall of Adam was not a doctrine of the Church; and, further, that the conception embodied in the belief of many to the effect that there were no such Preadamite races, and that there was no death upon the earth prior to Adam's fall is likewise declared to be no doctrine of the Church. I think the decision of the First Presidency is a wise one in the premises. This is one of the many things upon which we cannot preach with assurance and dogmatic assertions on either side are likely to do harm rather than good. [9]
Elder Jeffery R. Holland notes that there was no human death on the earth prior to the Fall of Adam
Elder Jeffery R. Holland, at the April 2015 General Conference, stated,
[T]here was an actual Adam and Eve who fell from an actual Eden, with all the consequences that fall carried with it.
I do not know the details of what happened on this planet before that, but I do know these two were created under the divine hand of God, that for a time they lived alone in a paradisiacal setting where there was neither human death nor future family, and that through a sequence of choices they transgressed a commandment of God which required that they leave their garden setting but which allowed them to have children before facing physical death. [10]
What was the state of things on the Earth prior to the placement of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden?
The "period of our planet's creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man" is excluded from the period of the Earth's "temporal existence"
The following is from the Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, (2002), 167-171, "Section 77 Questions and Answers on the Book of Revelation." off-site
D&C 77꞉6-7. Why Was the Book Sealed That John Saw?
"‘The book which John saw’ represented the real history of the world—what the eye of God has seen, what the recording angel has written; and the seven thousand years, corresponding to the seven seals of the Apocalyptic volume, are as seven great days during which Mother Earth will fulfill her mortal mission, laboring six days and resting upon the seventh, her period of sanctification. These seven days do not include the period of our planet’s creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man. They are limited to Earth’s ‘temporal existence,’ that is, to Time, considered as distinct from Eternity." (Whitney, Saturday Night Thoughts, p. 11.) (emphasis added)
The manual specifically excludes the "period of our planet's creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man" from the period defined as the Earth's "temporal existence." Nothing is implied or stated regarding "death before the Fall."
Notes
- ↑ For a representative sample of the non-official statements made by Elder McConkie and others from a variety of perspectives, see here.
- ↑ LDS KJV, Bible Dictionary, "Death," 655, 1979 and current edition. off-siteoff-site
- ↑ LDS KJV, Bible Dictionary, "Fall of Adam and Eve," 655, current edition. off-siteoff-site
- ↑ Bruce R. McConkie, cited in Mark McConkie (editor), Doctrines of the Restoration: Sermons and Writings of Bruce R. McConkie (Salt Lake City, Utah: Bookcraft, 1989), 289–290 (emphasis added). ISBN 0884946444. ISBN 978-0884946441.
- ↑ LDS KJV, Bible Dictionary, "Introduction," 599. off-site
- ↑ James E. Talmage, "The Earth and Man," Address in the Tabernacle, (9 August 1931); originally published in the Deseret News, 21 Nov 1931; subsequently published as a pamphlet by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1931; later published in The Instructor, 100:12 (December 1965) :474–477; continued in The Instructor 101:1 (January 1966): 9–15. FAIRWiki link
- ↑ Talmage to Heber Timothy, 28 Jan. 1932, Talmage Papers; cited in Richard Sherlock, "A Turbulent Spectrum: Mormon Responses to the Darwinist Legacy," Journal of Mormon History 4:? (1975): 45–69.
- ↑ First Presidency, Memorandum to General Authorities, April 1931, 6–7.
- ↑ James Edward Talmage, Personal Journal (7 April 1931) 29:42, Archives and Manuscripts, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah (emphasis added).
- ↑ Jeffery R. Holland, "Where Justice, Love, and Mercy Meet," April 2015 General Conference.
"Age of the Earth and Dinosaurs"
MormonThink states...
"Age of the Earth and Dinosaurs"
FairMormon Response
- REDIRECT Age of the Earth
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
[T]he quotes given above by the prophets since Joseph Smith's time show that the LDS Church clearly taught that the earth was only thousands of years old instead of billions of years old for all of the 19th century and much of the 20th century. The quotes in the Doctrine & Covenants are canonized scripture and cannot be discarded so casually as many LDS apologists like to do. Many gospel doctrine teachers still teach that the earth isn't nearly as old as scientists say.
FairMormon commentary
- Caricature believers' arguments —Rather than accurately report and respond to a statement offered by a believer, the critic misrepresents it and then criticizes their own straw man version.
LDS apologists do not treat the scriptures casually, nor do they discard them.
Additional information
- Age of the Earth—Do Latter-day Saints believe that the Earth is only 6,000 years old? Why does Doctrine and Covenants section 77 say that the history of the earth covers only seven thousand years? (Link)
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Belief in Evolution
FairMormon commentary
- The Church's response: Official statements regarding organic evolution===
- First Presidency letter, "The Origin of Man" (November 1909) This was reprinted in 2002 (“The Origin of Man,” Ensign, Feb 2002, 26)
- First Presidency statement, "Words in Season" (December 1910)
- First Presidency letter, "'Mormon' View of Evolution" (September 1925)
- Despite the fact that the Church has no official position on evolution beyond those expressed by the First Presidency, some general authorities and lay members have considered evolution to be at variance with scriptural teaching. This view is well summarized by Elder Bruce R. McConkie's statement, "There is no harmony between the truths of revealed religion and the theories of organic evolution."[1] Other authors, including Joseph Fielding Smith, held similar views.
Other Church authorities and members have seen much of value in evolutionary theory, even if they have not endorsed every aspect of it. Examples include James E. Talmage, John A. Widtsoe, and LDS chemist Henry Eyring.
Additional information
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Implausibility of Adam and Eve being the First Humans
FairMormon commentary
- There has been a great deal of controversy among Church members over the issue of pre-Adamites. Some general authorities accepted their existence, while others completely denied it. The most famous disagreement was between Elders B.H. Roberts and Joseph Fielding Smith.
Additional information
- Pre-Adamites—There is scientific evidence of human habitation for many thousands of years. How do we reconcile this with the idea that Adam lived approximately 6,000 years ago? (Link)
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
From the FAIR apologists
Like the FARMS apologists, the FAIR apologists also seem to be at odds with the church teachings. Most FAIR apologists accept the data supported by science to agree that there was no global flood. Our response to FAIR: You could probably believe whatever you want about anything taught in the LDS Church and they are not going to kick you out of the church. Of course believing in the story of Noah isn't one of the temple recommend interview questions. That isn't the issue. It also doesn't doesn't mean you can dismiss the huge problems this creates for the church if the story of Noah and a global flood isn't true as the church teaches.
FairMormon commentary
- The critic is assuming that the entire story of Noah is a fiction. Latter-day Saints (including those who are members of FAIR) believe in the story of Noah. We believe that Noah existed, that he was commanded to build an ark, and that he and his family were saved from a catastrophic flood by doing so. FAIR is not at odds with church teachings regarding Noah.
- The only thing at issue is the scope of the flood, and differences in belief on that point are not essential to salvation. So what if Church leaders believe that the Flood covered the entire globe? So what if some believe, based upon scientific evidence, that the Flood was local in scope? It simply makes no difference to the teachings in the Church that Noah was a prophet, and that he did as God commanded him.
Additional information
- Global or local Flood—How do we deal with the fact that there is no scientific evidence of a worldwide flood? How can the scriptures and prophets teach of a worldwide flood, when this contradicts the evidence? The biodiversity of plants and animals on the earth could not have occurred within the span of a few thousand years. Did the continents separate during the flood of Noah? Doctrine and Covenants 133:23–24 seems to imply that they did. How do we reconcile this to scientific fact? Didn't Brigham Young, John Taylor and Orson Pratt teach that the Flood was the baptism of the Earth? (Link)