Difference between revisions of "Criticism of Mormonism/Books/Becoming Gods"

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:—Richard Abanes, blog post "Mormonism LEGALLY Declared Not Christian,"  October 9, 2008.  
 
:—Richard Abanes, blog post "Mormonism LEGALLY Declared Not Christian,"  October 9, 2008.  
 
:(The following day, October 10, in response to a reader comment, the title of the blog entry was changed to read "Mormonism LEGALLY Declared Not Protestant." One poster compared the logic presented with the following: "And given the fact that San Diego is not Los Angeles, or San Francisco, or Sacramento, one can naturally extrapolate that San Diego is not in California.")
 
:(The following day, October 10, in response to a reader comment, the title of the blog entry was changed to read "Mormonism LEGALLY Declared Not Protestant." One poster compared the logic presented with the following: "And given the fact that San Diego is not Los Angeles, or San Francisco, or Sacramento, one can naturally extrapolate that San Diego is not in California.")
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==Use of sources==
 
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{{Main|/Use of sources|l1=Use of sources}}
 
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<!--==Quote manipulation==
 
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{{QuoteDisclaimer}}
 
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===Something to Consider===
 
−
Most references and comments are placed at the end of the book. This requires a tedious process of looking up each citation at the end of the book by those who wish to study the sources used. Unfortunately, the endnotes are also used to provide information which ought to have been acknowledged in the main text. The average reader will not check the end notes&mdash;they will read the main text without looking up the "rest of the story" in the endnote. Some examples this are provided in the following sections.
 
−
 
−
==="Celestial sex"===
 
−
The book displays a disturbing preoccupation with what is constantly referred to as a "sexual union" between heavenly parents: The word "sex" and "sexual" are often inserted into descriptions of LDS beliefs which otherwise never mention the word. The author makes similar claims in his earlier book [[One Nation Under Gods#Celestial sex?|''One Nation Under Gods'']].
 
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{| valign="top" border="1" style="width:100%; font-size:85%"
 
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!width="5%"|Reference
 
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!width="35%"|The claim...
 
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!width="35%"|The rest of the story...
 
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!width="25%"|[[Use of sources]]
 
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|-
 
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|331 n.35
 
−
||Mormons often seek to distance themselves and their church from a problematic past comment of an LDS leader by ... narrowly splitting terms in order to focus on a minor issue while dismissing the broader point that is being made by a critic of the church.
 
−
||For example, I have often spoken of the LDS belief in eternal "Celestial Sex" (i.e. the process by which Mormons believe they will procreate spirit children in eternity with their spouses, see chapter 6). But this has brought LDS criticisms because the actual phrase "Celestial Sex" is not used by LDS leaders&mdash;'''even though sexual union is how many Mormons believe they will procreate in the Celestial Kingdom'''. {{ea}}
 
−
||
 
−
*A search of the endnotes of Chapter 6 shows no references to 1982 anti-Mormon film ''The God Makers'', from which the offensive term "Celestial Sex" originated.
 
−
|-
 
−
|392 n.14||...thanks to Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother&mdash;'''who, through some kind of sexual union''', "clothed" each of us with a spirit-body. {{ea}}
 
−
||Bruce R. McConkie, ''Mormon Doctrine'', p. 750. "Our spirit bodies had their beginning in pre-existence when we were born as the spirit children of God our Father. Through that birth process spirit element was organized into intelligent entities."
 
−
||
 
−
*Bruce R. McConkie is quoted in the endnote, who never mentions anything about "sexual unions."
 
−
|-
 
−
|157||According to Brigham Young, our spirit body was created '''via a sexual union''' of Heavenly Father and Mother..."[God] created man, as we create our children," said Young, "[f]or there is no other process of creation in heaven, on the earth, in the earth, or under the earth, or in all the eternities, that is, that were, or that ever will be." {{ea}}
 
−
||"...So God created man in his own image. in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." I believe that the declaration made in these two scriptures is literally true. God has made His children like Himself to stand erect, and has endowed them with intelligence and power and dominion over all His works, and given them the same attributes which He Himself possesses. He created man, as we create our children; for there is no other process of creation in heaven, on the earth, in the earth, or under the earth, or in all the eternities, that is, that were, or that ever will be. As the Apostle Paul has expressed it, "For in Him we live, and move, and have our being." "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art or man's device." There exist fixed laws and regulations by which the elements are fashioned to fulfill their destiny in all the varied kingdoms and orders of creation, and this process of creation is from everlasting to everlasting. Jesus Christ is known in the scriptures as the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, and it is written of Him as being the brightness of the Father's glory and the express image of His person. The word image we understand in the same sense as we do the word in the 3rd verse of the 5th chapter of Genesis, "And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image."
 
−
||
 
−
*Brigham Young, ''Journal of Discourses'' 11:123.
 
−
*Does Brigham sound like he is talking about sex? He is talking about how God created man "in his own image." The author ought to do a better job of keeping his mind from slipping into the gutter.
 
−
|}
 
−
'''Commentary'''
 
−
*The book speaks of the "LDS belief in 'Celestial Sex'" and "sexual union" between Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother as a fact, yet this characterization is abhorrent and offensive to Latter-day Saints. The book continues by stating that "sexual union is how many Mormons believe they will procreate in the Celestial Kingdom." Latter-day Saints do not claim to know the process by which spirit children are created.
 
−
*It is ironic that the book uses this as an example of Mormons "splitting terms" while "dismissing the broader point" raised by critics. The ''broader point'' is that LDS believe that they will be able to have spirit children if they achieve exaltation. The ''narrow point'' is the assignment of the ugly and offensive term "Celestial Sex" to this process&mdash;a term coined by Ed Decker in the 1982 anti-Mormon film [[The God Makers|''The God Makers'']] ("...engaging in celestial sex with their goddess wives.")
 
−
{{parabreak}}
 
−
 
−
 
−
===Comparing population sizes at the beginning and end of a 1000-year period?===
 
−
{| valign="top" border="1" style="width:100%; font-size:85%"
 
−
!width="5%"|Reference
 
−
!width="35%"|The claim...
 
−
!width="35%"|The conclusion...
 
−
!width="25%"|[[Use of sources]]
 
−
|-
 
−
|p. 69-70
 
−
||'''"LDS apologists and BYU professors are advocating''' a new ''unofficial'' opinion that Lehi and his people represented only a ''' 'small band' ''' of Israelites, compared to a larger population of indigenous people in the New world."
 
−
||"'''But according to Mormon 1:7''' in the Book of Mormon, '''the Nephite and Lamanite populations were hardly small''': "The whole face of the land had become covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous almost, as it were the sand of the sea [about A.D. 322]."
 
−
||*Jeffrey Meldrum, "The Children of Lehi: DNA and the ''Book of Mormon'', lecture at the 2003 FAIR Conference, Aug. 8, 2003.
 
−
|}
 
−
'''Commentary'''
 
−
*The book seems to propose that the proposition that Lehi's small group intermingled with a larger population of Native Americans in approximately 600 B.C. is somehow contradicted and invalidated by the fact that the population was as numerous as "the sand of the sea" in A.D. 322, ''almost 1000 years later''. The logic behind this comparison is elusive. If anything, the idea that Lehi's group mingled with an existing population ''supports'' the idea that they would become quite numerous over a long period of time.
 
−
{{parabreak}}
 
−
 
−
===The Book of Commandments was printed?===
 
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{| valign="top" border="1" style="width:100%; font-size:85%"
 
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!width="5%"|Reference
 
−
!width="35%"|The claim...
 
−
!width="35%"|What is placed in the endnotes...
 
−
!width="25%"|[[Use of sources]]
 
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|-
 
−
|p. 84
 
−
||[The revelations] were subsequently arranged, edited by Smith for accuracy, then printed as ''A Book of Commandments (1833)''. But '''because very few copies of the ''Book of Commandments'' were produced, it remained unavailable to most Mormons'''. So in 1835 LDS leaders republished the revelations. But by that time the declarations were showing their age. Many contained outdated information. Some included erroneous statements. Others presented abandoned doctrines. A few of the revelations simply revealed too much information about LDS beliefs... {{ea}}
 
−
||(p. 370 n.9)The press that printed the sheets of revelations was destroyed by an anti-Mormon mob. The sheets, scattered in the streets, were gathered up and assembled into a 160-page book.
 
−
||
 
−
*[http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Diary_of_Joseph_Smith,_Jr._(1832-1834)#1 December 1832—Saturday Joseph Smith's diary, Dec. 1, 1832], "[I] wrote and corrected revelations &c."
 
−
*Dean Jessee, PJS, vol. 2, p. 4
 
−
|}
 
−
'''Commentary'''
 
−
*The book makes a statement in the main text and then provide crucial clarification in the endnotes at the back of the book. In the main text, the text makes it appear as if the ''Book of Commandments'' was successfully printed and distributed, but that it was unavailable to most Church members because there were "very few copies." Then, just ''two years'' later, the revelations were supposed to be "showing their age" for a variety of reasons.
 
−
*See also: [[Doctrine and Covenants textual changes]]
 
−
{{parabreak}}
 
−
 
−
===Argument from silence?===
 
−
{| valign="top" border="1" style="width:100%; font-size:85%"
 
−
!width="5%"|Reference
 
−
!width="35%"|The claim...
 
−
!width="35%"|The rest of the story...
 
−
!width="25%"|[[Use of sources]]
 
−
|-
 
−
|90||LDS apologist Stephen Gibson reasons, "Since we don't have the original manuscripts used for the book of the Bible, nor do we have record of their writing processes, critics cannot claim that Biblical prophets never revised nor added to their revelations." '''But this type of reasoning is known as an "argument from silence."''' It is actually meaningless because arguments from silence can be used to prove nearly anything. {{ea}}
 
−
||(p. 101) Eleven pages after implying the LDS are "arguing from silence," the book then states the following:
 
−
 
−
"Orson Pratt alluded to this idea, arguing that the wisdom of man may certainly not alter revelations, but "[i]f they need altering, God alone has the right to alter them, or to add to them." Pratt then referred to the case of the prophet Jeremiah, whose revelation was burned by the king of Judah. Afterward "Jeremiah was commanded to write all the words again, and there were added besides unto them many like words."
 
−
||
 
−
*Orson Pratt, "Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon&mdash;no.1, 1850," pp. 4-5. Reprinted in Orson Pratt, ''Orson Pratt's Works'', vol. 2.
 
−
*{{s||Jeremiah|36|32}}
 
−
|}
 
−
'''Commentary'''
 
−
*The book claims that Latter-day Saints are [[Logical fallacies#Argument from silence|"arguing from silence"]] on this issue. An "argument from silence" can be presented as follows: "You claimed you had a good explanation for apologetic argument X. You have failed to produce that argument or point me to a resource which could provide it. It is therefore fair to conclude that you do not have such an explanation, since there is nothing which should prevent you from providing it." It seems odd to argue that LDS have no response to support the idea that revelations may be altered by the prophet that gave them, yet later provide that very LDS response and spend time refuting it. It seems that Orson Pratt was not "silent" in his ability to provide Biblical support for his position.
 
−
{{parabreak}}
 
−
 
−
==="Son of Man" or "son of ''a'' man?"===
 
−
{| valign="top" border="1" style="width:100%; font-size:85%"
 
−
!width="5%"|Reference
 
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!width="35%"|The claim...
 
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!width="35%"|The rest of the story...
 
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!width="25%"|[[Use of sources]]
 
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|-
 
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|149||Now concerning the title "Son of Man," there are several ways to interpret this phrase. But none of them imply that God the Father is a man. One might notice, for instance, that '''contrary to what Mormons may assert''', the phrase does not say "son of ''a'' man." There are no indefinite articles in the Greek. Each instance simply reads, "Son of Man."
 
−
||The book implies through the construction of this text that Mormons believe that the title "Son of Man" actually means "son of ''a'' man." (bold emphasis added)
 
−
||
 
−
*No source is provided to support the assertion and implication that LDS reinterpret the title "Son of Man" as "son of a man."
 
−
|}
 
−
'''Commentary'''
 
−
*Latter-day Saints accept "Son of Man" as a messianic title, and do not attempt to reinterpret or alter it.
 
−
{{parabreak}}
 
−
 
−
===The reason that Latter-day Saints should be excluded from being called "Christian?"===
 
−
{| valign="top" border="1" style="width:100%; font-size:85%"
 
−
!width="5%"|Reference
 
−
!width="35%"|The claim...
 
−
!width="35%"|What does he mean?
 
−
!width="25%"|[[Use of sources]]
 
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|-
 
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|265||
 
−
This does not mean that Mormons are "Christian" in an objective theological sense. It merely means there exists no other category in which they can be placed. Allowing for the broad viewpoint, however, opens up a large can of worms. What about the Branch Davidians, who called themselves "Christian" but stored illegal weapons, abused children, and murdered law enforcement officers? What about The Family, a "Christian" group that currently engages in premarital "sharing" with multiple partners and allows adultery with consent? How about so-called "Christian" witches? There are also a significant number of liberal "Christian"...who deny the virgin birth, the deity of Jesus, and Christ's physical resurrection. And let us not forget "Christian" nudists.
 
−
||So, lets examine the stated criteria for disallowing the "broad definition" of the term "Christian:"
 
−
*Storing illegal weapons
 
−
*Abusing children
 
−
*Murdering law enforcement officers
 
−
*Pre-maritial sharing partners and consensual adultery
 
−
*Witches
 
−
*Denial of the virgin birth
 
−
*Denial of the divinity of Jesus Christ
 
−
*Denial of the resurrection of Jesus Christ
 
−
*Nudists
 
−
||The book uses a variety of sources related to the various groups mentioned.
 
−
|}
 
−
'''Commentary'''
 
−
*A "laundry list" of groups and their abhorrent practices are presented in order argue ''against'' the application of the term "Christian" to Latter-day Saints. Examining this list closely&mdash;are ''any'' of these things taught, advocated or practiced by Latter-day Saints? ''This'' is the category into which Latter-day Saints are to be consigned? Such a comparison and its use as justification for denying the use of the term "Christian" to Latter-day Saints is insulting.
 
−
{{parabreak}}
 
−
 
−
-->
 
−
 
−
<!--
 
−
=="Conversations" with "LDS believers"==
 
−
The book uses an interesting (and annoying) method of illustrating a concept at the beginning of many chapters. Dialogues between the author and LDS "believers" are described. This method, of course, allows the LDS responses to conform to the point that is being made. Latter-day Saints who read these dialogues would certainly not entirely agree with what the "LDS believer" says.
 
−
 
−
===A "Mormon bishop" who doesn't understand the Godhead?===
 
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{| valign="top" border="1" style="width:100%; font-size:85%"
 
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!width="5%"|Page
 
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!width="45%"|A "conversation" with a bishop
 
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!width="50%"|Commentary
 
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|-
 
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|107-108||
 
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*Author: "Don't you believe the Father is a god?"
 
−
*Bishop: "Yes, of course."
 
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*Author: "And the Son is a god?"
 
−
*Bishop: "Yes"
 
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*Author: "And the Holy Ghost is a god."
 
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*Bishop: "Yes"
 
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*Author: '''"That's three gods."'''
 
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*Bishop: '''"No, they're one God."'''
 
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*Author: "But you just said each one is a god."
 
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*Bishop: "Yes"
 
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*Author: '''"Then, that's three."'''
 
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*Bishop: '''"No, that's one"'''
 
−
 
−
{{ea}}
 
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||
 
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*This is a bizarre manipulation of LDS belief.
 
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*Imagine if the roles were reversed, with the "Mormon bishop" asking an Evangelical Christian these questions. It is hard to believe that the concept of the Trinity would produce a different set of answers.
 
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*Note that the book does not have the "Mormon bishop" state that the three are "one in purpose," as ''any'' bishop would.
 
−
|}
 
−
 
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===A conversation with "LDS friend, Cindy"===
 
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{| valign="top" border="1" style="width:100%; font-size:85%"
 
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!width="5%"|Page
 
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!width="45%"|A "conversation" with a LDS woman
 
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!width="50%"|Commentary
 
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|-
 
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|132||
 
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*Author: "But why? '''Why would you remain faithful to the Mormon god if that is not the God clearly talked about in the Bible?'''"
 
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*"LDS" Cindy: '''"Because I like the Mormon God. I like the idea of God being a man just like us."'''
 
−
 
−
{{ea}}
 
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||
 
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*This conversation would lead us to believe that a LDS woman "admitted" that she worships the "Mormon god" rather than the God of the Bible.
 
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|}
 
−
 
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===A "Mormon missionary" claims that the belief that Jesus paid for his sins is "not my faith?"===
 
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{| valign="top" border="1" style="width:100%; font-size:85%"
 
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!width="5%"|Page
 
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!width="45%"|A "conversation" with a LDS missionary named "Steven."
 
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!width="50%"|Commentary
 
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|-
 
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|177-178||
 
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*Author: '''"That's why we need Jesus. He did it all for us. Paid the price for our sins. Cancelled out the debt against us. Opened up a way, free and clear, to eternal life."
 
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*Elder "Steve": '''"That sounds nice. But that's not my faith."'''
 
−
 
−
{{ea}}
 
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||
 
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*Latter-day Saints certainly agree that they need Jesus, believe that He paid the price for our sins, cancelled out the debt against us and opened up the way to eternal life. This conversation wants us to believe that a LDS missionary claimed "that's not my faith?"
 
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*The issue here is the phrase "free and clear."
 
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*The conversation is structured so that it appears that the LDS missionary is ''denying the need for Christ''. Any Latter-day Saint would recognize this as being completely unrealistic.
 
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|}
 
−
 
−
==The "Mormon Jesus" versus the "Traditional Jesus"==
 
−
It would be enlightening for any Latter-day Saint to read the book's description of the "Mormon Jesus" in the left column and see just how much of this is recognizable as church doctrine. The list is taken from the endnotes on page 440, note 46. This claim was originally made in the author's earlier work [[One Nation Under Gods#"Mormon Beliefs About Jesus" versus "Christian Beliefs About Jesus"|''One Nation Under Gods''&mdash;"Mormon Beliefs About Jesus" versus "Christian Beliefs About Jesus"]], p. 378.
 
−
{| valign="top" border="1" style="width:100%; font-size:85%"
 
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!width="40%"|The "Mormon Jesus"
 
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!width="40%"|Jesus Christ, as viewed by Latter-day Saints
 
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!width="20%"|For more information...
 
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|-
 
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|A ''literal'' son (spirit-child) of a god (Elohim) and his wife.||
 
−
*Mormons believe that ''everyone'' is a spirit child of Heavenly Father, including Jesus. What is a spirit child?  We don't have the details. 
 
−
*Our eternal nature was organized into a spirit person, whatever that is.  We don't know the details.  We don't know the process in which we became a spirit person.
 
−
*The difference between us is that Jesus is divine, while the rest of us are not.
 
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*Why the emphasis on the word "literal"? Apparently, to once again call attention to the subject of "Celestial Sex."
 
−
||
 
−
*[[Jesus Christ's conception]]
 
−
|-
 
−
|The elder brother of all spirits born in the pre-existence to Heavenly Father.||
 
−
*Latter-day Saints do not claim to know by what method a spirit is "born."
 
−
*Christ is the "eldest," but what this means is not also not clear.  Is it a question of temporality?  (i.e., He came first in time)  Is it a rank?  Does it describe His relationship to us?  We simply don't claim to know, since time is only measured unto man.
 
−
*Latter-day Saints do believe that Christ was ''not'' created ex nihilo at some moment; He is eternally self-existent.
 
−
||
 
−
*[[Creation in Colossians 1:16]]
 
−
|-
 
−
|One of three gods overseeing this planet.||
 
−
*There is only one God. Christ is one of three divine beings in the Godhead. They are one in purpose, not one in person. {{s||John|17|3}}, {{s||John|17|20-22}}
 
−
*Regardless of this, a creedal Christian ought not to have a problem with one God consisting of more than one Person.
 
−
||
 
−
*[[Godhead and the Trinity]]
 
−
|-
 
−
|Atoned only for Adam's transgression, thereby providing the opportunity for us to obtain "eternal life" by our own efforts.
 
−
||
 
−
*This statement is completely false.
 
−
*The Book of Mormon teaches that Christ's sacrifice was "infinite and eternal." (2 Nephi) It could not be exceeded in any sense.  Christ suffered for the sins, griefs, and pains of all humanity (Alma 7), whether or not they repent.
 
−
*The benefits of that atonement are restricted if we refuse to do that which He asks of us to accept it (i.e. have faith, repent, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, and endure to the end.)
 
−
||
 
−
*[[Salvation by faith alone]]
 
−
*[[Neglect grace]]
 
−
*[[Early Christian views on salvation]]
 
−
|-
 
−
|The ''literal'' spirit brother of Lucifer.||
 
−
*Again, note the emphasis on the word "literal." Latter-day Saints do ''not'' consider Jesus in any way to be Satan's "peer."
 
−
||
 
−
*[[Jesus Christ is the brother of Satan]]
 
−
|-
 
−
|Jesus' sacrificial death is not able to cleanse some people of ''all'' their sins.||
 
−
*Latter-day Saints believe that only those who ''reject the atonement'' cannot be cleansed from all their sins. If one doesn't accept the atonement, then the atonement can't save him or her.  But, that is a reflection on the sinner, and does ''not'' imply that Christ's atonement was "not able" to cleanse our sins.
 
−
*This is probably alluding to blood atonement.
 
−
*Jesus Christ Himself taught that blasphemy against the Holy Ghost was an "unforgivable sin." {{s||Matthew|12|31-32}}
 
−
||
 
−
*[[Unforgivable sin]]
 
−
|-
 
−
|There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God.||
 
−
*Latter-day Saints believe that there is no salvation without accepting Jesus Christ as our Saviour and Redeemer. Salvation is obtained by receiving Jesus and his atoning sacrifice. The statement presented in the book is nonsense.  All save the sons of perdition are saved.  All will be resurrected.
 
−
*A fullness of salvation requires accepting the words of ALL the prophets--including those who wrote the Bible, and including Joseph Smith.
 
−
*If one believes that you have to accept the Bible witness to be saved, then how can one fault Latter-day Saints for believing that another prophet's witness must also be accepted? LDS doctrine saves infidels and non-Christians in a resurrection of glory, and provides for their evangelization after death.
 
−
||
 
−
*[[Joseph Smith's status in LDS belief]]
 
−
|}
 
−
-->
 
  
 
=={{Endnotes label}}==
 
=={{Endnotes label}}==

Revision as of 18:57, 25 March 2011

  1. REDIRECTTemplate:Test3


A FAIR Analysis of:
Becoming Gods: A Closer Look at 21st-Century Mormonism
A work by author: Richard Abanes
 One Nation Under Gods

About this work

==

Sub-articles


==

Index of claims

Summary: Responses to specific critical or unsupported claims made in Becoming Gods: A Closer Look at 21st-Century Mormonism indexed by page number.

Use of sources

Summary: An examination and response to how the author of Becoming Gods: A Closer Look at 21st-Century Mormonism interprets the sources used to support this work, indexed by page number.  [needs work]

Overview

There are no books from an evangelical perspective that responsibly interact with contemporary LDS scholarly and apologetic writings.
—Paul Mosser and Carl Owen, "Mormon Scholarship, Apologetics and Evangelical Neglect: Losing the Battle and Not Know It?" Trinity Journal, 1998.

It is claimed that this book is an attempt to fill the void highlighted by Mosser and Owen. Unfortunately, what we find instead are the same misrepresentations and arguments that been offered in the past by anti-Mormon authors. There is nothing at all new here. This book could best be described as an Evangelical apologetic work against Mormonism. The book spends much time refuting LDS interpretation of scriptural passages in the Bible, often claiming that Mormons have misinterpreted the scriptures and that they require "deeper study." In fact, it is claimed that LDS scholars have only a superficial knowledge of the scriptures, at one time stating that "[p]roperly interpreting them is not as simple as reading today's newspaper" (p. 213).

Notable and Quotable

A summary of the painful manipulations required in order to circumscribe the meaning of the term "Christian" so that it excludes Latter-day Saints:

Many evangelical books offer little help. Some are strident or mocking.
—Richard Abanes, Becoming Gods, p. 11
Mormons do in fact seek salvation within the historical person known to the world as Jesus of Nazareth, as they see him.
—Richard Abanes, Becoming Gods, p. 265
This does not mean that Mormons are "Christian" in an objective theological sense. It merely means there exists no other category in which they can be placed. Allowing for the broad viewpoint, however, opens up a large can of worms. What about the Branch Davidians, who called themselves "Christian" but stored illegal weapons, abused children, and murdered law enforcement officers? What about The Family, a "Christian" group that currently engages in premarital "sharing" with multiple partners and allows adultery with consent? How about so-called "Christian" witches? There are also a significant number of liberal "Christians"...who deny the virgin birth, the deity of Jesus, and Christ's physical resurrection. And let us not forget "Christian" nudists.
—Richard Abanes, Becoming Gods, p. 265
So if Daniel Peterson and Barry Bickmore, for example, have no problem being called "heretical Christians," then I have no problem obliging them.
—Richard Abanes, Becoming Gods, p. 266
When it comes to whether or not Mormons are Christian, a simple yes or no answer will never do.
—Richard Abanes, Becoming Gods, p. 279
Appeals Court Rules Mormon Church Is Outside Protestant Christian Faith. This ruling clearly agrees that Mormonism is outside Protestantism. And Mormonism is certainly not Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. The ruling, of course, fails to answer the question: What is Mormonism? Given the fact that it is not Roman Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant, one can naturally extrapolate that Mormonism is not Christian.
—Richard Abanes, blog post "Mormonism LEGALLY Declared Not Christian," October 9, 2008.
(The following day, October 10, in response to a reader comment, the title of the blog entry was changed to read "Mormonism LEGALLY Declared Not Protestant." One poster compared the logic presented with the following: "And given the fact that San Diego is not Los Angeles, or San Francisco, or Sacramento, one can naturally extrapolate that San Diego is not in California.")

== Notes ==

Further reading

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{{To learn more box:responses to: 8: The Mormon Proposition}} To learn more box:responses to: 8: The Mormon Proposition edit
{{To learn more box:''Under the Banner of Heaven''}} To learn more about responses to: Under the Banner of Heaven edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Robert Price}} To learn more about responses to: Robert Price edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Ankerberg and Weldon}} To learn more about responses to: Ankerberg and Weldon edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Ashamed of Joseph}} To learn more about responses to: Ashamed of Joseph edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Beckwith and Moser}} To learn more about responses to: Beckwith and Moser edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Beckwith and Parrish}} To learn more about responses to: Beckwith and Parrish edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Benjamin Park}} To learn more about responses to: Benjamin Park edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Bible versus Joseph Smith}} To learn more about responses to: Bible versus Joseph Smith edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Bible versus Book of Mormon}} To learn more about responses to: Bible versus Book of Mormon edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: ''Big Love''}} To learn more about responses to: Big Love edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Brett Metcalfe}} To learn more about responses to: Brett Metcalfe edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Bill Maher}} To learn more about responses to: Bill Maher edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Bruce H. Porter}} To learn more about responses to: Bruce H. Porter edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Carol Wang Shutter}} To learn more about responses to: Carol Wang Shutter edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: CES Letter}} To learn more about responses to: CES Letter edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Charles Larson}} To learn more about responses to: Charles Larson edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Christopher Nemelka}} To learn more about responses to: Christopher Nemelka edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Colby Townshed}} To learn more about responses to: Colby Townshed edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Contender Ministries}} To learn more about responses to: Contender Ministries edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Crane and Crane}} To learn more about responses to: Crane and Crane edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: D. Michael Quinn}} To learn more about responses to: D. Michael Quinn edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Dan Vogel}} To learn more about responses to: Dan Vogel edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: David John Buerger}} To learn more about responses to: David John Buerger edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: David Persuitte}} To learn more about responses to: David Persuitte edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Denver Snuffer}} To learn more about responses to: Denver Snuffer edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Dick Bauer}} To learn more about responses to: Dick Bauer edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Duwayne R Anderson}} To learn more about responses to: Duwayne R Anderson edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Earl Wunderli}} To learn more about responses to: Earl Wunderli edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Ed Decker}} To learn more about responses to: Ed Decker edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Erikson and Giesler}} To learn more about responses to: Erikson and Giesler edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Ernest Taves}} To learn more about responses to: Ernest Taves edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Fawn Brodie}} To learn more about responses to: Fawn Brodie edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: George D Smith}} To learn more about responses to: George D Smith edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Grant Palmer}} To learn more about responses to: Grant Palmer edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Hank Hanegraaff}} To learn more about responses to: Hank Hanegraaff edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Hurlbut-Howe}} To learn more about responses to: Hurlbut-Howe edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: James Brooke}} To learn more about responses to: James Brooke edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: James Spencer}} To learn more about responses to: James Spencer edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: James White}} To learn more about responses to: James White edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Jerald and Sandra Tanner}} To learn more about responses to: Jerald and Sandra Tanner edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Jesus Christ-Joseph Smith or Search for the Truth DVD}} To learn more about responses to: Jesus Christ-Joseph Smith or Search for the Truth DVD edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: John Dehlin}} To learn more about responses to: John Dehlin edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Jonathan Neville}} To learn more about responses to: Jonathan Neville edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Kurt Van Gorden}} To learn more about responses to: Kurt Van Gorden edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Laura King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery}} To learn more about responses to: Laura King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Loftes Tryk aka Lofte Payne}} To learn more about responses to: Loftes Tryk aka Lofte Payne edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Luke WIlson}} To learn more about responses to: Luke WIlson edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Marquardt and Walters}} To learn more about responses to: Marquardt and Walters edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Martha Beck}} To learn more about responses to: Martha Beck edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Mcgregor Ministries}} To learn more about responses to: Mcgregor Ministries edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: McKeever and Johnson}} To learn more about responses to: McKeever and Johnson edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: New Approaches}} To learn more about responses to: New Approaches to the Book of Mormon edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Richard Abanes}} To learn more about responses to: Richard Abanes edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Richard Van Wagoner}} To learn more about responses to: Richard Van Wagoner edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Richard and Joan Ostling}} To learn more about responses to: Richard and Joan Ostling edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Rick Grunger}} To learn more about responses to: Rick Grunger edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Robert Ritner}} To learn more about responses to: Robert Ritner edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Rod Meldrum}} To learn more about responses to: Rod Meldrum edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Roger I Anderson}} To learn more about responses to: Roger I Anderson edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Ronald V. Huggins}} To learn more about responses to: Ronald V. Huggins edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Sally Denton}} To learn more about responses to: Sally Denton edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Simon Southerton}} To learn more about responses to: Simon Southerton edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Thomas Murphy}} To learn more about responses to: Thomas Murphy edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Todd Compton}} To learn more about responses to: Todd Compton edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Vernal Holley}} To learn more about responses to: Vernal Holley edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Walter Martin}} To learn more about responses to: Walter Martin edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Wesley Walters}} To learn more about responses to: Wesley Walters edit
{{To learn more box:responses to: Will Bagley}} To learn more about responses to: Will Bagley edit
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