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Difference between revisions of "Criticism of Mormonism/Books/American Massacre/Chapter 10"
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===Claims made in Chapter 10: "Mountain Meadows, September 7-11, 1857"=== | ===Claims made in Chapter 10: "Mountain Meadows, September 7-11, 1857"=== | ||
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====129==== | ====129==== | ||
| − | | | + | {{IndexClaim |
| − | + | |claim= | |
| − | | | + | Will Bagley claimed that Mountain Meadows was known among the Mormons as "a preferred location for the quiet execution of unpleasant tasks." |
| + | |response= | ||
* {{SecondaryFact}} | * {{SecondaryFact}} | ||
* Bagley's errors, negative reviews, and bias are discussed on the page dedicated to his book. It becomes obvious that the author of this work simply relies on Bagley's interpretation, and provides no independent evaluation of the evidence. | * Bagley's errors, negative reviews, and bias are discussed on the page dedicated to his book. It becomes obvious that the author of this work simply relies on Bagley's interpretation, and provides no independent evaluation of the evidence. | ||
| − | | | + | |authorsources= |
* {{CriticalWork:Bagley:Blood of the Prophets|pages=121}} | * {{CriticalWork:Bagley:Blood of the Prophets|pages=121}} | ||
* {{CrossRef:Bagley:Blood of the Prophets|pages=121}} | * {{CrossRef:Bagley:Blood of the Prophets|pages=121}} | ||
| − | + | }} | |
| − | |||
====131==== | ====131==== | ||
| − | | | + | {{IndexClaim |
| − | + | |claim= | |
| − | | | + | The author claims that "numerous apostates" were traveling with the Fancher Train by the time it reached Mountain Meadows. |
| + | |response= | ||
* This claim is repeated frequently until the source is revealed later. See below. | * This claim is repeated frequently until the source is revealed later. See below. | ||
| − | | | + | |authorsources= |
*No source provided. | *No source provided. | ||
| − | + | }} | |
| − | |||
====133==== | ====133==== | ||
| − | | | + | {{IndexClaim |
| − | + | |claim= | |
| − | | | + | The author claims that William Bateman, who had weeks earlier been "threatened with excommunication for apostasy," was given a chance to redeem himself by "carrying out church orders at Mountain Meadows." According to "Prophet Heber Kimball," Bateman was placed "in the front ranks" to be put "to the test." |
| + | |response= | ||
*{{FalseStatement}}: The author is making a huge assumption here. Heber says, | *{{FalseStatement}}: The author is making a huge assumption here. Heber says, | ||
<blockquote> | <blockquote> | ||
| Line 45: | Line 45: | ||
</blockquote> | </blockquote> | ||
*This has nothing to do with William Bateman, and nothing to do with Mountain Meadows. | *This has nothing to do with William Bateman, and nothing to do with Mountain Meadows. | ||
| − | | | + | |authorsources= |
*{{JDfairwiki|author=Heber C. Kimball|disc=70|vol=4|start=375}} | *{{JDfairwiki|author=Heber C. Kimball|disc=70|vol=4|start=375}} | ||
| − | + | }} | |
| − | |||
====135==== | ====135==== | ||
| − | | | + | {{IndexClaim |
| − | + | |claim= | |
| − | | | + | {{AuthorQuote|The recommendation of the many apostates in the camp would never be known, or whether they considered their fellow Mormons capable of such cold-blooded treachery.}} |
| + | |response= | ||
*The author ''again'' mentions the numerous "apostates" that she believes were part of the Fancher party, yet she provides no evidence of this. | *The author ''again'' mentions the numerous "apostates" that she believes were part of the Fancher party, yet she provides no evidence of this. | ||
| − | | | + | |authorsources= |
*No source provided. | *No source provided. | ||
| − | + | }} | |
| − | |||
====136a==== | ====136a==== | ||
| − | | | + | {{IndexClaim |
| − | + | |claim= | |
| − | | | + | (Photo caption) The author claims that Joseph Smith "had his first vision in 1820" and then three years later reported that he was "surrounded by 'a pillar of light' during a visitation from the angel Moroni." |
| + | |response= | ||
*{{Absurd}}: The author appears to have never even studied any of the sources that she used. Any Latter-day Saint knows that the "pillar of light" is associated with Joseph's [[First Vision]]. | *{{Absurd}}: The author appears to have never even studied any of the sources that she used. Any Latter-day Saint knows that the "pillar of light" is associated with Joseph's [[First Vision]]. | ||
| − | | | + | |authorsources= |
*No source provided (unsurprisingly). | *No source provided (unsurprisingly). | ||
| − | + | }} | |
| − | |||
====136b==== | ====136b==== | ||
| − | | | + | {{IndexClaim |
| + | |claim= | ||
(Photo caption) The author claims that Brigham Young called his enemies "Christians" and that the Latter-day Saints left Nauvoo, Illinois because they "had been unable to live in peace with their neighbors." | (Photo caption) The author claims that Brigham Young called his enemies "Christians" and that the Latter-day Saints left Nauvoo, Illinois because they "had been unable to live in peace with their neighbors." | ||
| − | | | + | |response= |
* Brigham also regarded himself and the Latter-day Saints as [[Latter-day_Saints_aren't_Christians#1860s|Christians]]. | * Brigham also regarded himself and the Latter-day Saints as [[Latter-day_Saints_aren't_Christians#1860s|Christians]]. | ||
* {{HistoricalError}}: The Saints left Nauvoo because they were under threat of armed assault. There would have been no peace, but it was not the LDS who threatened the peace. | * {{HistoricalError}}: The Saints left Nauvoo because they were under threat of armed assault. There would have been no peace, but it was not the LDS who threatened the peace. | ||
| − | | | + | |authorsources= |
* No source provided. | * No source provided. | ||
| − | + | }} | |
| − | |||
====136g==== | ====136g==== | ||
| − | | | + | {{IndexClaim |
| + | |claim= | ||
(Photo caption) Did Brigham order the rock cairn memorial at the scene of the massacre dismantled? | (Photo caption) Did Brigham order the rock cairn memorial at the scene of the massacre dismantled? | ||
| − | | | + | |response= |
| − | * | + | *{{Detail|One_Nation_Under_Gods/Use_of_sources/Brigham_Young_orders_MMM_monument_demolished|l1=Brigham orders monument destroyed?}} |
| − | | | + | |authorsources= |
* No source provided | * No source provided | ||
| − | + | }} | |
| − | |||
====137==== | ====137==== | ||
| − | | | + | {{IndexClaim |
| − | + | |claim= | |
| − | | | + | The author claims that the "Mormon apostate refugees" were "blood atoned." |
| + | |response= | ||
*The author ''finally'' provides a source for her comments about "Mormon apostates" being part of the Fancher party. | *The author ''finally'' provides a source for her comments about "Mormon apostates" being part of the Fancher party. | ||
* Backus' book was noted by at least two reviews to suffer from a key flaw. As one review put it, the | * Backus' book was noted by at least two reviews to suffer from a key flaw. As one review put it, the | ||
| Line 101: | Line 101: | ||
::Baker's own statement that her information came from reading and from discussion with contemporaries only confirms that she had no special knowledge. One would expect a child to be traumatized by the massacre and incapable of adequately understanding what was happening around her.{{ref|schindler.1}} | ::Baker's own statement that her information came from reading and from discussion with contemporaries only confirms that she had no special knowledge. One would expect a child to be traumatized by the massacre and incapable of adequately understanding what was happening around her.{{ref|schindler.1}} | ||
* Reports of apostates joining the wagon train did not appear until many years after the Massacre.{{ref|mmm.109-110}} For the author to be persuasive on this point, more information (e.g., identity of the supposed murdered apostates) is needed. | * Reports of apostates joining the wagon train did not appear until many years after the Massacre.{{ref|mmm.109-110}} For the author to be persuasive on this point, more information (e.g., identity of the supposed murdered apostates) is needed. | ||
| − | | | + | |authorsources= |
*Anna Jean Backus, ''Mountain Meadows Witness: The Life and Times of Bishop Philip Klingensmith'' (Arthur H. Clark Co, 1996), 136. | *Anna Jean Backus, ''Mountain Meadows Witness: The Life and Times of Bishop Philip Klingensmith'' (Arthur H. Clark Co, 1996), 136. | ||
| − | + | }} | |
| − | |||
====141==== | ====141==== | ||
| − | | | + | {{IndexClaim |
| − | + | |claim= | |
| − | | | + | {{AuthorQuote|Neither that tally nor any later count would include the Mormon "backouts" murdered that day.}} |
| + | |response= | ||
*Yet another reference to Mormon "apostates" being part of the Fancher party, which is based on dubious evidence. | *Yet another reference to Mormon "apostates" being part of the Fancher party, which is based on dubious evidence. | ||
*Since ''no'' later counts (even those made by those hostile to the Church) mention the supposed apostates, this is probably good evidence that such apostate victims never existed. | *Since ''no'' later counts (even those made by those hostile to the Church) mention the supposed apostates, this is probably good evidence that such apostate victims never existed. | ||
| − | | | + | |authorsources= |
* No source provided {{attn}}? | * No source provided {{attn}}? | ||
| − | + | }} | |
| − | |||
====141==== | ====141==== | ||
| − | | | + | {{IndexClaim |
| − | + | |claim= | |
| − | | | + | John D. Lee claimed that Brigham Young advised them to claim that the massacre was performed by Indians alone. |
| + | |response= | ||
* It is unsurprising that Lee, one of the ringleaders, would wish to blame the murders or cover-up on his ecclesiastical superiors. | * It is unsurprising that Lee, one of the ringleaders, would wish to blame the murders or cover-up on his ecclesiastical superiors. | ||
| − | * | + | *{{Detail|Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Use of sources/Brigham Young ordered MMM|l1=Brigham Young ordered Mountain Meadows Massacre?}} |
| − | * | + | *{{Detail|Mountain Meadows Massacre/Prosecution|l1=Brigham Young and the prosecution of Mountain Meadows Massacre}} |
| − | + | |authorsources= | |
| − | |||
*Lee, 251. | *Lee, 251. | ||
| − | + | }} | |
| − | |||
====142==== | ====142==== | ||
| − | | | + | {{IndexClaim |
| − | + | |claim= | |
| − | | | + | The "scheme to blame the atrocity on the Indians" is claimed to have been conceived and crafted "with the characteristic meticulousness for which Brigham Young was famous." |
| + | |response= | ||
* Leaders in southern Utah were already planning to blame the Massacre on Indians before Brigham Young had even heard of it. After an initial skirmish with the party, one of the immigrants was killed and another wounded. "A witness of white involvement had now shared the news within the emigrant corral. If the surviving emigrants were freed and continued on to California, word would quickly spread that Mormons had been involved in the attack....Despite plans to pin the massacre on the Paiutes—and persistent subsequent efforts to do so—Nephi Johnson later maintained that his fellow militiamen did most of the killing."{{ref|turley.2}} | * Leaders in southern Utah were already planning to blame the Massacre on Indians before Brigham Young had even heard of it. After an initial skirmish with the party, one of the immigrants was killed and another wounded. "A witness of white involvement had now shared the news within the emigrant corral. If the surviving emigrants were freed and continued on to California, word would quickly spread that Mormons had been involved in the attack....Despite plans to pin the massacre on the Paiutes—and persistent subsequent efforts to do so—Nephi Johnson later maintained that his fellow militiamen did most of the killing."{{ref|turley.2}} | ||
* Jacob Hamblin testified that he told Brigham the facts soon after the massacre. Hamblin reported that Brigham said that "as soon as we can get a court of justice, we will ferret this thing out, but till then don't say anything about it." Hamblin said that Lee's trial was "the first time I ever felt that any good would come of it [telling the story]. I kept it to myself until it was called for in the proper place."{{ref|hamblin.1}} | * Jacob Hamblin testified that he told Brigham the facts soon after the massacre. Hamblin reported that Brigham said that "as soon as we can get a court of justice, we will ferret this thing out, but till then don't say anything about it." Hamblin said that Lee's trial was "the first time I ever felt that any good would come of it [telling the story]. I kept it to myself until it was called for in the proper place."{{ref|hamblin.1}} | ||
| − | * | + | *{{Detail|Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Use of sources/Brigham Young ordered MMM|l1=Brigham Young ordered Mountain Meadows Massacre?}} |
| − | * | + | *{{Detail|Mountain Meadows Massacre/Prosecution|l1=Brigham Young and the prosecution of Mountain Meadows Massacre}} |
| − | | | + | |authorsources= |
*Author's opinion. | *Author's opinion. | ||
| − | + | }} | |
=={{Endnotes label}}== | =={{Endnotes label}}== | ||
Revision as of 22:35, 21 March 2011
- REDIRECTTemplate:Test3
| Chapter 9 | A FAIR Analysis of: American Massacre A work by author: Sally Denton
|
Chapter 11 |
Claims made in Chapter 10: "Mountain Meadows, September 7-11, 1857"
129
Claim
Will Bagley claimed that Mountain Meadows was known among the Mormons as "a preferred location for the quiet execution of unpleasant tasks."
Author's source(s)
- Will Bagley, Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows (University of Oklahoma Press, 2002), 121.
- Compare treatment in Blood of the Prophets: p. 121.
Response
- Quotes another author's opinion as if it were fact
- Bagley's errors, negative reviews, and bias are discussed on the page dedicated to his book. It becomes obvious that the author of this work simply relies on Bagley's interpretation, and provides no independent evaluation of the evidence.
131
Claim
The author claims that "numerous apostates" were traveling with the Fancher Train by the time it reached Mountain Meadows.
Author's source(s)
- No source provided.
Response
- This claim is repeated frequently until the source is revealed later. See below.
133
Claim
The author claims that William Bateman, who had weeks earlier been "threatened with excommunication for apostasy," was given a chance to redeem himself by "carrying out church orders at Mountain Meadows." According to "Prophet Heber Kimball," Bateman was placed "in the front ranks" to be put "to the test."
Author's source(s)
- Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 4:375.
Response
- The author's claim is false: The author is making a huge assumption here. Heber says,
Some who have been apostates for years past are beginning to come back to us; and, inasmuch as they did not stand and be valiant for the truth, we are now going to place them in the front ranks, and put them to the test.
- This has nothing to do with William Bateman, and nothing to do with Mountain Meadows.
135
Claim
Author's quote: The recommendation of the many apostates in the camp would never be known, or whether they considered their fellow Mormons capable of such cold-blooded treachery.
Author's source(s)
- No source provided.
Response
- The author again mentions the numerous "apostates" that she believes were part of the Fancher party, yet she provides no evidence of this.
136a
Claim
(Photo caption) The author claims that Joseph Smith "had his first vision in 1820" and then three years later reported that he was "surrounded by 'a pillar of light' during a visitation from the angel Moroni."
Author's source(s)
- No source provided (unsurprisingly).
Response
- Absurd claim: The author appears to have never even studied any of the sources that she used. Any Latter-day Saint knows that the "pillar of light" is associated with Joseph's First Vision.
136b
Claim
(Photo caption) The author claims that Brigham Young called his enemies "Christians" and that the Latter-day Saints left Nauvoo, Illinois because they "had been unable to live in peace with their neighbors."
Author's source(s)
- No source provided.
Response
- Brigham also regarded himself and the Latter-day Saints as Christians.
- History unclear or in error: The Saints left Nauvoo because they were under threat of armed assault. There would have been no peace, but it was not the LDS who threatened the peace.
136g
Claim
(Photo caption) Did Brigham order the rock cairn memorial at the scene of the massacre dismantled?
Author's source(s)
- No source provided
Response
- For a detailed response, see: Brigham orders monument destroyed?
137
Claim
The author claims that the "Mormon apostate refugees" were "blood atoned."
Author's source(s)
- Anna Jean Backus, Mountain Meadows Witness: The Life and Times of Bishop Philip Klingensmith (Arthur H. Clark Co, 1996), 136.
Response
- The author finally provides a source for her comments about "Mormon apostates" being part of the Fancher party.
- Backus' book was noted by at least two reviews to suffer from a key flaw. As one review put it, the
- survivor recollections used as source material is a serious flaw in the book. Sarah Baker [one witness] was 3 when the massacre claimed her parents. Trial testimony showed that participants in the crime had been ordered never to speak of it, even among themselves. Surviving children were parceled out to Mormon families. The two Baker girls went to John D. Lee's home. What opportunity was there to learn anything of the massacre?
- Baker's own statement that her information came from reading and from discussion with contemporaries only confirms that she had no special knowledge. One would expect a child to be traumatized by the massacre and incapable of adequately understanding what was happening around her.[1]
- Reports of apostates joining the wagon train did not appear until many years after the Massacre.[2] For the author to be persuasive on this point, more information (e.g., identity of the supposed murdered apostates) is needed.
141
Claim
Author's quote: Neither that tally nor any later count would include the Mormon "backouts" murdered that day.
Author's source(s)
- No source provided [ATTENTION!]?
Response
- Yet another reference to Mormon "apostates" being part of the Fancher party, which is based on dubious evidence.
- Since no later counts (even those made by those hostile to the Church) mention the supposed apostates, this is probably good evidence that such apostate victims never existed.
141
Claim
John D. Lee claimed that Brigham Young advised them to claim that the massacre was performed by Indians alone.
Author's source(s)
- Lee, 251.
Response
- It is unsurprising that Lee, one of the ringleaders, would wish to blame the murders or cover-up on his ecclesiastical superiors.
- For a detailed response, see: Brigham Young ordered Mountain Meadows Massacre?
- For a detailed response, see: Brigham Young and the prosecution of Mountain Meadows Massacre
142
Claim
The "scheme to blame the atrocity on the Indians" is claimed to have been conceived and crafted "with the characteristic meticulousness for which Brigham Young was famous."
Author's source(s)
- Author's opinion.
Response
- Leaders in southern Utah were already planning to blame the Massacre on Indians before Brigham Young had even heard of it. After an initial skirmish with the party, one of the immigrants was killed and another wounded. "A witness of white involvement had now shared the news within the emigrant corral. If the surviving emigrants were freed and continued on to California, word would quickly spread that Mormons had been involved in the attack....Despite plans to pin the massacre on the Paiutes—and persistent subsequent efforts to do so—Nephi Johnson later maintained that his fellow militiamen did most of the killing."[3]
- Jacob Hamblin testified that he told Brigham the facts soon after the massacre. Hamblin reported that Brigham said that "as soon as we can get a court of justice, we will ferret this thing out, but till then don't say anything about it." Hamblin said that Lee's trial was "the first time I ever felt that any good would come of it [telling the story]. I kept it to myself until it was called for in the proper place."[4]
- For a detailed response, see: Brigham Young ordered Mountain Meadows Massacre?
- For a detailed response, see: Brigham Young and the prosecution of Mountain Meadows Massacre
== Notes ==
- [note] Harold Schindler, "'Mountain Meadows' Account Lacks Substantiation (review of Mountain Meadows Witness: The Life and Times of Bishop Philip Klingensmith by Anna Jean Backus)," Salt Lake Tribune (17 March 1996). See similar remarks in Lawrence Coates, "review of Anna Jean Backus "Mountain Meadows Witness: The Life and Times of Bishop Philip Klingensmith," Brigham Young University Studies 36 no. 4 (1996–97), 225–. off-site
- [note] Turley, Walker and Leonard, Massacre at Mountain Meadows, 109-110.
- [note] Richard E. Turley Jr., "The Mountain Meadows Massacre," Ensign (September 2007): 14.off-site
- [note] Jacob Hamblin, (September 1876), "Testimony of Jacob Hamblin" off-site