Difference between revisions of "Criticism of Mormonism/Books/American Massacre/Chapter 11"

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===Claims made in Chapter 11: "Camp Scott, November 16, 1857"===
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{{BeginClaimsTable}}
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====165====
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*The author claims that during meetings with U.S. Army Quartermaster Captian Stewart Van Vliet, Brigham Young had "seen to it that Van Vliet heard nothing of Mountain Meadows," and that the "Mormon leaders worried that if van Vliet relayed news of the situation to Johnston, an invasion of Utah Territory would be expedited."
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* {{HistoricalError}}: It was virtually impossible for anyone in Salt Lake to have heard of the Massacre (which happened on 11 September) by the time Van Vliet left on 14 Sept, or last met with Brigham Young on 13 Sept.
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* "Army Quartermaster Captain Stewart Van Vliet came to Salt Lake City on 8 September and left after midnight on 14 September 1857 to arrange for the advancing army's provisions.  Denton tells us that Brigham Young carefully shielded Van Vliet to hear nothing of the massacre, because if Van Vliet came to know about it, "an invasion of Utah Territory would be expedited" (p. 165). There is no historical support for this claim. The claim is also impossible to support. Because the massacre was not over until 11 September 1857,23 there is no possibility that Brigham Young could have known of the massacre before his last meeting with Van Vliet on 13 September 1857."{{ref|van.vliet.deceit}}
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*No source provided for this particular claim, although the following citation is Van Vliet quoted in {{CriticalWork:Stenhouse:Rocky Mountain Saints|pages=357}}
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|-
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====165====
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*The author claims that Brigham did not preach the sermon at the church meeting attended by Van Vliet because he was "too furious to conduct the service."
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*Brigham actually ''did'' preach two sermons that day (13 September 1857).
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*See: {{JDwiki|author=Brigham Young|url=http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Journal_of_Discourses/Volume_5/The_United_States_Administration_and_Utah_Army|vol=5|pages=226–31}}
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*See: {{JDwiki|author=Brigham Young|url=http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Journal_of_Discourses/Volume_5/Movements_of_the_Saints%E2%80%99_Enemies%E2%80%94The_Crisis|vol=5|pages=231–36}}
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*Reviewer Robert Crocket notes, "Denton’s failure to know of Young’s sermons suggests a rather light review of her secondary sources. On 13 September 1857, in the Bowery, Brigham Young indeed said he was too angry to preach but then filled the day with two lengthy sermons nonetheless. Regardless of who spoke, I would have imagined that anybody writing about this event would have taken time to examine the Journal of Discourses to see what was actually said with Van Vliet in attendance." {{ref|crockett.1}}
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*No source provided. Likely Stenhouse.
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|-
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|
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====165====
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*The author claims that Brigham made an "oblique but unrecognized reference to the massacre at Mountain Meadows" to Van Vliet when he said "if the government dare to force the issue, I shall not hold the Indians by the wrist any longer...you may tell the government to stop all emigration across the continent, for the Indians will kill all who attempt it."
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||
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*The author just said earlier that Brigham had "seen to it that Van Vliet heard nothing of Mountain Meadows." Now she's saying that Brigham made an "oblique but unrecognized reference" to it!
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*Bancroft, 505.
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|-
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====167====
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*Any "Mormon man" who defied Brigham's declaration of Martial law would be "put to death."
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*Brigham Young proclamation, alternately dated August 5 and September 15, 1857, original copies located in Special Collections, Marriott University Library, University of Utah. Reprinted in Fielding, ''Unsolicted Chronicler'', 395;
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*{{CriticalWork:Stenhouse:Rocky Mountain Saints|pages=358-59}}
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|-
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|
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====167====
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*The author states that "any man who defied Young's orders would be put to death was made evident in his statement "When the time comes to burn and lay waste our improvements, if any man undertakes to shield his, he will be sheared down."
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* Denton uses a secondary source, when she could have easily verified Brigham's words in the ''Journal of Discourses''.
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* {{SourceDistortion}}: In context, Brigham's word assume a different tone. Immediately following the phrase quoted by the author, Brigham says "Now the faint-hearted can go in peace; but should that time come, they must not interfere." This is ''not'' a threat of death to those who would not participate.
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*See: [[Disobey Brigham and be sheared down|Disobey Brigham and be sheared down?]]
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* Young quoted in Waite, 50.
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* [See {{JDwiki|author=Brigham Young|url=http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Journal_of_Discourses/Volume_5/Movements_of_the_Saints%E2%80%99_Enemies%E2%80%94The_Crisis|vol=5|pages=232}} (13 Sept 1857).]
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|-
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====167====
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*The date of Brigham's proclamation "was changed from August to September" in order to destroy evidence that it authorized the Mountain Meadows Massacre.
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*Gibbs, ''Mountain Meadows Massacre'', 11.
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|-
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====172====
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*The author claims that "droves of Saints leaving California for Utah" and "a matching number leaving Utah of a crisis of conscience spurred by the events of Mountain Meadows" were "doomed to pass over the site of the slaughter."
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*No source provided.
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|-
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====172====
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*Ann Eliza Young claims that she "knew instinctively, as did many others, that something was being hidden from the mass of the people."
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* {{Absurd}}: So now, Ann Eliza's intuitions are serving as evidence.  Ann Eliza was writing later in life as an anti-Mormon lecturer, and used all the anti-Mormon tropes.
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* See {{Nibley11|start=413|end=468}} {{GL1|url=http://gospelink.com.gospelink.com/library/document/31152}}
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*{{CriticalWork:Young:Wife No. 19|pages=229}}
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|-
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====173====
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*It is claimed that Brigham Young instructed John D. Lee to write a letter laying the blame for the massacre on the Indians.
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* As noted on the notes for [[American Massacre/Index#142|p. 142]], local leaders had planned to blame the Indians long before Brigham Young even knew of their intentions, or instructed them to leave the immigrants alone.
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*No source provided.
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|-
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====173====
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*Brigham is claimed to have told Chief Walker's successor Arapeen to "help himself to what he wanted" of the "spoils of the slaughter."
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* {{SecondaryFact}}: Denton again follows Bagley completely uncritically, and makes the same errors.
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* {{HistoricalError}}: [[Blood_of_the_Prophets:_Brigham_Young_and_the_Massacre_at_Mountain_Meadows/Use of sources/Indian chief Arapeen given booty|Indian chief Arapeen given booty?]]
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*''Dimick B. Huntington Journal'', September 20, 1857.
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*{{CrossRef:Bagley:Blood of the Prophets|pages=170a}}
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|-
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====176, 180====
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*Colonel Thomas Kane is portrayed as arrogant, effeminate, a hypochondriac, and with delusions of fame.
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* {{Presentism}}: [[Mountain Meadows Massacre/Thomas Kane|Thomas Kane]]
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*{{SecondaryFact}}: Denton seems to rely heavily on Bagley's treatment here.
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*{{attn}}
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* {{CrossRef:Bagley:Blood of the Prophets|pages=198}}
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====186====
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*Prior to the massacre, George A. Smith is claimed to "have carried orders to Cedar City leaders to incite their people to avenge the blood of the prophets."
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* "This argument assumes Brigham Young had formulated the plan for destruction when the Fancher train was still in Salt Lake City on 5 August 1857. There is no evidence of material provocation by the Fancher train at this early stage except from persons with no reliable basis upon which to provide testimony....Nobody has ever offered any believable evidence that George A. Smith gave instructions to Haight and Lee to massacre the train. John D. Lee is the only person who purported to offer evidence of these instructions," and Lee had a clear motive to lie to save his own skin and make his memoirs more marketable.  "Lee's claim that George A. Smith met Lee in southern Utah on 1 September 1857 (an approximate date deduced from Lee's text) with orders of destruction was impossible because Smith was hundreds of miles away in Salt Lake City on that very day, as well as the day before."  Thus, Lee is wrong on those events which we can verify.{{ref|crockett.2}}
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*No source provided. (Likely Bagley)
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|-
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====186====
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*George A. Smith was "sent south not to learn the truth, but to devise an explanation for church leaders could provide to external enemies..."
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* {{DoubleStandard}}: [[Blood_of_the_Prophets:_Brigham_Young_and_the_Massacre_at_Mountain_Meadows/Use_of_sources/Double_standards_of_skepticism|Double standards in evidence]]
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*{{CriticalWork:Bagley:Blood of the Prophets|pages=212}}
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====186====
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*George A. Smith "went to lengths to characterize the victims as cowards."
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*George A. Smith report in Juanita Brooks, ''The Mountain Meadows Massacre'', p. 242.
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{{EndTable}}

Revision as of 18:46, 19 June 2009


Chapter 10
A FAIR Analysis of:
Criticism of Mormonism/Books
A work by author: Sally Denton
 Chapter 12

Claims made in Chapter 11: "Camp Scott, November 16, 1857"

Page Claim Response Author's sources

165
  • The author claims that during meetings with U.S. Army Quartermaster Captian Stewart Van Vliet, Brigham Young had "seen to it that Van Vliet heard nothing of Mountain Meadows," and that the "Mormon leaders worried that if van Vliet relayed news of the situation to Johnston, an invasion of Utah Territory would be expedited."
  •  History unclear or in error: It was virtually impossible for anyone in Salt Lake to have heard of the Massacre (which happened on 11 September) by the time Van Vliet left on 14 Sept, or last met with Brigham Young on 13 Sept.
  • "Army Quartermaster Captain Stewart Van Vliet came to Salt Lake City on 8 September and left after midnight on 14 September 1857 to arrange for the advancing army's provisions. Denton tells us that Brigham Young carefully shielded Van Vliet to hear nothing of the massacre, because if Van Vliet came to know about it, "an invasion of Utah Territory would be expedited" (p. 165). There is no historical support for this claim. The claim is also impossible to support. Because the massacre was not over until 11 September 1857,23 there is no possibility that Brigham Young could have known of the massacre before his last meeting with Van Vliet on 13 September 1857."[1]
  • No source provided for this particular claim, although the following citation is Van Vliet quoted in T.B.H. Stenhouse, Rocky Mountain Saints: a full and complete history of the Mormons, from the first vision of Joseph Smith to the last courtship of Brigham Young (New York: D. Appleton and Company, 1873), 357.

165
  • The author claims that Brigham did not preach the sermon at the church meeting attended by Van Vliet because he was "too furious to conduct the service."
  • Brigham actually did preach two sermons that day (13 September 1857).
  • See: Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 5:226–31.
  • See: Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 5:231–36.
  • Reviewer Robert Crocket notes, "Denton’s failure to know of Young’s sermons suggests a rather light review of her secondary sources. On 13 September 1857, in the Bowery, Brigham Young indeed said he was too angry to preach but then filled the day with two lengthy sermons nonetheless. Regardless of who spoke, I would have imagined that anybody writing about this event would have taken time to examine the Journal of Discourses to see what was actually said with Van Vliet in attendance." [2]
  • No source provided. Likely Stenhouse.

165
  • The author claims that Brigham made an "oblique but unrecognized reference to the massacre at Mountain Meadows" to Van Vliet when he said "if the government dare to force the issue, I shall not hold the Indians by the wrist any longer...you may tell the government to stop all emigration across the continent, for the Indians will kill all who attempt it."
  • The author just said earlier that Brigham had "seen to it that Van Vliet heard nothing of Mountain Meadows." Now she's saying that Brigham made an "oblique but unrecognized reference" to it!
  • Bancroft, 505.

167
  • Any "Mormon man" who defied Brigham's declaration of Martial law would be "put to death."
  • Brigham Young proclamation, alternately dated August 5 and September 15, 1857, original copies located in Special Collections, Marriott University Library, University of Utah. Reprinted in Fielding, Unsolicted Chronicler, 395;
  • T.B.H. Stenhouse, Rocky Mountain Saints: a full and complete history of the Mormons, from the first vision of Joseph Smith to the last courtship of Brigham Young (New York: D. Appleton and Company, 1873), 358-59.

167
  • The author states that "any man who defied Young's orders would be put to death was made evident in his statement "When the time comes to burn and lay waste our improvements, if any man undertakes to shield his, he will be sheared down."
  • Denton uses a secondary source, when she could have easily verified Brigham's words in the Journal of Discourses.
  •  Misrepresentation of source: In context, Brigham's word assume a different tone. Immediately following the phrase quoted by the author, Brigham says "Now the faint-hearted can go in peace; but should that time come, they must not interfere." This is not a threat of death to those who would not participate.
  • See: Disobey Brigham and be sheared down?

167
  • The date of Brigham's proclamation "was changed from August to September" in order to destroy evidence that it authorized the Mountain Meadows Massacre.
  • Gibbs, Mountain Meadows Massacre, 11.

172
  • The author claims that "droves of Saints leaving California for Utah" and "a matching number leaving Utah of a crisis of conscience spurred by the events of Mountain Meadows" were "doomed to pass over the site of the slaughter."
  • No source provided.

172
  • Ann Eliza Young claims that she "knew instinctively, as did many others, that something was being hidden from the mass of the people."
  •  Absurd claim: So now, Ann Eliza's intuitions are serving as evidence. Ann Eliza was writing later in life as an anti-Mormon lecturer, and used all the anti-Mormon tropes.
  • See Hugh W. Nibley, Tinkling Cymbals and Sounding Brass: The Art of Telling Tales About Joseph Smith and Brigham Young (Vol. 11 of the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley), edited by David J. Whittaker, (Salt Lake City, Utah : Deseret Book Company ; Provo, Utah : Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 1991),413–468. ISBN 0875795161. GL direct link GL direct link
  • Ann Eliza Young, Wife No. 19, or the Story of a Life in Bondage...(Hartford, Conn.: Custin, Gilman & Company, 1876), 229.

173
  • It is claimed that Brigham Young instructed John D. Lee to write a letter laying the blame for the massacre on the Indians.
  • As noted on the notes for p. 142, local leaders had planned to blame the Indians long before Brigham Young even knew of their intentions, or instructed them to leave the immigrants alone.
  • No source provided.

173
  • Brigham is claimed to have told Chief Walker's successor Arapeen to "help himself to what he wanted" of the "spoils of the slaughter."
  •  Quotes another author's opinion as if it were fact: Denton again follows Bagley completely uncritically, and makes the same errors.
  •  History unclear or in error: Indian chief Arapeen given booty?
  • Dimick B. Huntington Journal, September 20, 1857.
  • Compare treatment in Blood of the Prophets: p. 170a.

176, 180
  • Colonel Thomas Kane is portrayed as arrogant, effeminate, a hypochondriac, and with delusions of fame.
  •  Presentism or anachronism: Thomas Kane
  •  Quotes another author's opinion as if it were fact: Denton seems to rely heavily on Bagley's treatment here.
  •  [ATTENTION!]
  • Compare treatment in Blood of the Prophets: p. 198.

186
  • Prior to the massacre, George A. Smith is claimed to "have carried orders to Cedar City leaders to incite their people to avenge the blood of the prophets."
  • "This argument assumes Brigham Young had formulated the plan for destruction when the Fancher train was still in Salt Lake City on 5 August 1857. There is no evidence of material provocation by the Fancher train at this early stage except from persons with no reliable basis upon which to provide testimony....Nobody has ever offered any believable evidence that George A. Smith gave instructions to Haight and Lee to massacre the train. John D. Lee is the only person who purported to offer evidence of these instructions," and Lee had a clear motive to lie to save his own skin and make his memoirs more marketable. "Lee's claim that George A. Smith met Lee in southern Utah on 1 September 1857 (an approximate date deduced from Lee's text) with orders of destruction was impossible because Smith was hundreds of miles away in Salt Lake City on that very day, as well as the day before." Thus, Lee is wrong on those events which we can verify.[3]
  • No source provided. (Likely Bagley)

186
  • George A. Smith was "sent south not to learn the truth, but to devise an explanation for church leaders could provide to external enemies..."

186
  • George A. Smith "went to lengths to characterize the victims as cowards."
  • George A. Smith report in Juanita Brooks, The Mountain Meadows Massacre, p. 242.
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