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Revision as of 11:30, 4 August 2017

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Contents

Response to MormonThink page "The Greek Psalter Incident"



Blacks and the Priesthood
A FAIR Analysis of: MormonThink, a work by author: Anonymous
 		Conflicts with Science
Mormonthink.chart.greek.psalter.png

Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Greek Psalter Incident"


Jump to details:


Response to claim: "there really is little to look at to determine the accuracy of Joseph's translating ability of the BOM"

The author(s) of MormonThink make(s) the following claim:

The most notable translation is of course the Book of Mormon. As the angel took back the gold plates from which the BOM was translated, there really is little to look at to determine the accuracy of Joseph's translating ability of the BOM.

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

Except, of course, the 500+ page Book of Mormon text itself and its relationship to the ancient world. And, the testimony of three witnesses who heard God declare that the translation was true. If one believes in divine revelation, the it is impossible to overlook these sources of information, however, critics of the Book of Mormon instead focus on a contradictory account from a hostile anti-Mormon.


Response to claim: "it's prudent to examine whatever source documents that may exist for those translations...very few members are aware of Joseph's encounter with a Greek Psalter in 1842"

The author(s) of MormonThink make(s) the following claim:

However, since Joseph translated some other documents as well, it's prudent to examine whatever source documents that may exist for those translations. If it can be proved that Joseph translated other ancient documents correctly, when he would have no knowledge of how to do so, it would go a long way to help validate Joseph's ability as a seer and translator. Most LDS are of course familiar with the first three translations. And some LDS are somewhat familiar with the Kinderhook Plates but very, very few members are aware of Joseph's encounter with a Greek Psalter in 1842.

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: The author has stated erroneous information or misinterpreted their sources

Joseph didn't translate the Greek Psalter. MormonThink's original title to this page was "The Greek Psalter Translation." At some point they apparently realized that there was not translation, and modified it to the "The Greek Psalter Incident." However, this paragraph still implies that something can be deduced about Joseph's translating ability by examining it. Additionaly, one would first have to ask if Joseph translated any additional documents in the same way as as he did scripture, through direct revelation. For example, Joseph studied Hebrew in the School of the Prophets using conventional scholarly techniques--his translations of Hebrew done in class might, then, only represent his intellectual or scholarly ability at the time, and not a divine ability to translate scripture.


Response to claim: "Joseph...apparently knew Egyptian well enough to translate it"

The author(s) of MormonThink make(s) the following claim:

Joseph of course translated the Book of Mormon from Reformed Egyptian and he also translated the Book of Abraham from Egyptian papyri so he apparently knew Egyptian well enough to translate it and professor Caswall wanted to see what he thought about this ancient Greek manuscript.

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: The author has stated erroneous information or misinterpreted their sources

Joseph could not translate Egyptian or any variation of Egyptian without divine aid, so he did not "apparently" know Egyptian well enough to translate it. The Nephite authors insisted that their "reformed Egyptian" had been so altered over 1000 years of separation from the Old World that "none other people knoweth our language; and because that none other people knoweth our language, therefore he hath prepared means for the interpretation thereof" (Mormon 9꞉34). Therefore, Joseph's ability to translate had nothing to do with "knowing a language," but was done (as he always insisted) "by the gift and power of God." He was not a translator in the academic on intellectual sense.


Response to claim: "Joseph examined the ancient document and replied that it was a Dictionary of Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics"

The author(s) of MormonThink make(s) the following claim:

Joseph examined the ancient document and replied that it was a Dictionary of Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics. Caswall knew Joseph was wrong as this was a known Greek Psalter and definitely not Egyptian.

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

Henry Caswall was a minister who deliberately set out to trap Joseph, and his is the only account we have of the incident.


Question: Did Joseph Smith misidentify a Greek "psalter" as a containing "reformed Egyptian" hieroglyphics?

There is no other evidence of Henry Caswall's claim save his anti-Mormon work

It was claimed by Henry Caswall that an ancient text of Greek psalms (a "psalter") was misidentified by Joseph Smith as a containing "reformed Egyptian" hieroglyphics.

There is no other evidence of Caswall's claim save his anti-Mormon work. That Caswall took no steps in Nauvoo to get Joseph on record is fatally suspicious, since this was the entire reason he claimed to be there. He is also clearly attempting to make Joseph Smith appear uncouth and ignorant, having him say "them plates" and "them characters", when this contrasts markedly with other known examples of Joseph's speaking and writing style at the time. [1] Furthermore, Joseph was familiar enough with Greek to recognize Greek characters, and so is unlikely to have mistaken them for an unknown language—even if we believe Joseph was attempting to deceive Caswall, it seems unlikely he would fail to recognize the characters of a language he had studied.

Those who tell this story rarely provide the source details for the tale, and do not inform their readers about John Taylor's witness regarding Caswall's later dishonesty.

An English clergyman from Missouri named Henry Caswall visited Nauvoo in 1842 and claimed that Joseph identifed a Greek psalter as a "Dictionary of Egyptian Hieroglyphics"

On 19 April 1842, an English clergyman from Missouri named Henry Caswall visited Nauvoo, and would later claim that he had shown Joseph Smith a Greek psalter, which the Prophet claimed to translate:

He [Joseph Smith] has a downcast look, and possesses none of that open and straightforward expression which generally characterizes an honest man. His language is uncouth and ungrammatical, indicating very confused notions respecting syntactical concords. When an ancient Greek manuscript of the Psalms was exhibited to him as a test of his scholarship, he boldly pronounced it to be a "Dictionary of Egyptian Hieroglyphics." Pointing to the capital letters at the commencement of each verse, he said, "Them figures is Egyptian hieroglyphics, and them which follows is the interpretation of the hieroglyphics, written in the reformed Egyptian language. Them characters is like the letters that was engraved on the golden plates." [2]

John Taylor: "Concerning Mr. Caswall, I was at Nauvoo during the time of his visit. He came for the purpose of looking for evil"

Of this claim, John Taylor would later say:

Concerning Mr. Caswall, I was at Nauvoo during the time of his visit. He came for the purpose of looking for evil. He was a wicked man, and associated with reprobates, mobocrats, and murderers. It is, I suppose, true that he was reverend gentleman; but it has been no uncommon thing with us to witness associations of this kind, nor for reverend gentlemen; so called, to be found leading on mobs to deeds of plunder and death. I saw Mr. Caswall in the printing office at Nauvoo; he had with him an old manuscript, and professed to be anxious to know what it was. I looked at it, and told him that I believed it was a Greek manuscript. In his book, he states that it was a Greek Psalter; but that none of the Mormons told him what it was. Herein is a falsehood, for I told him. Yet these are the men and books that we are to have our evidence from. [3]

An earlier, more detailed account from Caswall

That Caswall is not being entirely honest is demonstrated by another version of the same tale which he published the year earlier:

[p. 5] I had laid aside my clerical apparel, and had assumed a dress in which there was little probability of my being recognized as a " minister of the Gentiles." In order to test the scholarship of the prophet, I had further provided myself with an ancient Greek manuscript of the Psalter written upon parchment, and probably about six hundred years old….

[p. 35] On entering the house, chairs were provided for the prophet and myself, while the curious and gaping crowd remained standing. I handed the book to the prophet, and begged him to explain its contents. He asked me if I had any idea of its meaning. I replied, that I believed it to be a Greek Psalter; but that I should like to hear his opinion. "No," he said; "it ain't Greek at all; except, perhaps, a few words. What ain't Greek, is Egyptian ; and what ain't Egyptian, is Greek. This book is very valuable. It is a dictionary of Egyptian Hieroglyphics." Pointing to the capital letters at the commencement of each verse, he said : "Them figures is Egyptian hieroglyphics; and them which follows, is [p. 36] the interpretation of the hieroglyphics, written in the reformed Egyptian. Them characters is like the letters that was engraved on the golden plates." Upon this, the Mormons around began to congratulate me on the information I was receiving. "There," they said ; "we told you so we told you that our prophet would give you satisfaction. None but our prophet can explain these mysteries." The prophet now turned to me, and said, "this book ain't of no use to you, you don't understand it." "Oh yes," I replied; "it is of some use; for if I were in want of money, I could sell it, and obtain, perhaps, enough to live on for a whole year." "But what will you take for it?" said the prophet and his elders. "My price," I replied, "is higher than you would be willing to give." "What price is that?" they eagerly demanded. I replied, "I will not tell you what price I would take; but if you were to offer me this moment nine hundred dollars in gold for it, you should not have it." They then repeated their request that I should lend it to them until the prophet should have time to translate it, and promised me the most ample security; but I declined all their proposals. [4]

The Times and Seasons noted somewhat sardonically that Caswall had returned home and been 'rewarded' with status in his own denomination because of his attacks on the Church

The newspaper gave a version of events which seems to accord much better with the facts than Caswall's claim that Joseph was anxious to translate the psalter but Caswall refused to sell or lend it:

It will be recollected by some, that a Mr. Caswall, professing to be an Episcopal minister, came to this city some twelve or eighteen months ago. He had with him an old manuscript, professing to be ignorant of its contents, and came to Joseph Smith, as he said, for the purpose of having it translated. Mr. Smith had a little conversation with him and treated him with civility, but as the gentleman seemed very much afraid of his document, he [Joseph] declined having any thing to do with it. [5]

There are suspicious differences between Caswall's accounts

In his first version, Caswall claims that he told Joseph and the Mormons what the book was–a copy of the Psalms in Greek. Despite this warning, the bumbling Joseph that Caswall wishes us to see presses blindly on, utterly confident in his ability. The prophet and Mormons are also extraordinarily anxious to purchase the Psalter or borrow it with "the most ample security," but Caswall will not do so. Extraordinary! He has come to Nauvoo, he tells us, with the firm intent of exposing Joseph Smith as a charlatan. In front of a mass of witnesses, Joseph makes claims about the contents of a book that Caswall knows to be Greek, and the prophet offers to translate the document. Caswall, however, refuses to let him continue, refuses to loan it, and tries to discourage the Mormons from even thinking about buying it. Why? If Joseph committed himself publicly, in print, on the document's contents, Caswall would have iron-clad proof that Joseph could not translate.

Joseph walked right into Caswall's trap, and Caswall then goes to great length to spring the prophet from it? His claim does not stand up.

Caswall also claimed at first to have disguised his identity as a minister (the better to fool Joseph and the Mormons) but the Times and Seasons noted that Caswall had claimed to be an Episcopal minister. Caswall's second account likewise says nothing about him hiding his identity.

It is not surprising, then, that critics often cite the later, less-detailed version(s) of Caswall's tale, which omit many of the absurdities in Caswall's claim. Critics make his charge look plausible, when the earliest document demonstrates that it is not, and that Caswall (as John Taylor claimed) was not above hiding or altering the facts to suit his polemical purpose.

Joseph studied Greek and would have recognized Greek letters

Joseph Smith's journal reveals that Joseph actually studied a bit of Greek well before Caldwell's visit.

On 20 November 1835, Oliver Cowdery returned from New York and brought Joseph a Hebrew and Greek lexicon. [6] On 23 December 1835, Joseph wrote that he was "at home studying the greek Language..." [7]

Joseph was probably not a great scholar of Greek. But, Caldwell's claim that he was able to deceive Joseph with a Greek psalter seems pretty implausible when we realize that Joseph had studied a book on Greek. Joseph would not even need to be able to read the psalter to recognize Greek letters—learning such letters is the first task of any Greek student.

This, coupled with the other absurdities in Caswall's tale, and his efforts to make Joseph appear as a simple ignorant yokel make his tale even more unlikely.


Response to claim: "Caswall's experience with Joseph Smith at Nauvoo on 18-19 April 1842 expresses the frustration of an increasing number of LDS students with Joseph's ability to translate ancient documents"

The author(s) of MormonThink make(s) the following claim:

Henry Caswall's experience with Joseph Smith at Nauvoo on 18-19 April 1842 expresses the frustration of an increasing number of LDS students with Joseph's ability to translate ancient documents. Caswall was a visiting minister from England who was shown the Egyptian papyri. He decided to test Joseph's credibility by presenting him with a known, ancient Greek psalter for his examination.

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

No, it doesn't. Caswall was a minister from another denomination who set out to trap Joseph (he tells us this). Then, when the chance comes to launch the trap, Caswall backpedals and won't let Joseph buy or borrow the book he claims he can translate. The Mormons were on to Caswall--it seems unlikely Joseph fell into his trap at all, but that didn't stop Caswall from writing about it later.

John Taylor said of Caswall's visit:

Concerning Mr. Caswall, I was at Nauvoo during the time of his visit. He came for the purpose of looking for evil. He was a wicked man, and associated with reprobates, mobocrats, and murderers. It is, I suppose, true that he was reverend gentleman; but it has been no uncommon thing with us to witness associations of this kind, nor for reverend gentlemen; so called, to be found leading on mobs to deeds of plunder and death. I saw Mr. Caswall in the printing office at Nauvoo; he had with him an old manuscript, and professed to be anxious to know what it was. I looked at it, and told him that I believed it was a Greek manuscript. In his book, he states that it was a Greek Psalter; but that none of the Mormons told him what it was. Herein is a falsehood, for I told him. Yet these are the men and books that we are to have our evidence from.

So, Caswell may well illustrate what MormonThink is doing, but it's not an image they'd probably want to be associated with.


Response to claim: "We regret that we could not find this issue discussed on the Church's official website"

The author(s) of MormonThink make(s) the following claim:

We regret that we could not find this issue discussed on the Church's official website. However we found several responses from LDS apologists and LDS leaders which we cite below. Per the Neal A. Maxwell Institute...

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

The Maxwell Institute is part of Brigham Young University and is sponsored by the Church.


Response to claim: "Critic's response. We support professor Caswall's response to Joseph's error"

The author(s) of MormonThink make(s) the following claim:

Critic's response. We support professor Caswall's response to Joseph's error: "Whether he spoke as a prophet or as a mere man, he has committed himself, for he has said what is not true. If he spoke as a prophet, therefore, he is a false prophet. If he spoke as a mere man, he cannot be trusted, for he spoke positively and like an oracle respecting that which he knew nothing." When Joseph speaks and leads others to assume he is speaking as a prophet then he needs to be accountable for what he says. It's very convenient to say Joseph speaks as a man whenever he's proved wrong and as a prophet whenever his statements can't be proven right or wrong or haven't been proven one way or the other yet.

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

Well of course the critics support Caswall's response. Yet, what evidence is there that Joseph said anything problematic about the Psalter? Caswall had the chance (in his version telling of the story) for Joseph to take the Psalter and produce a translation. Caswall steadfastly refused, even when (in his telling) the gullible enthusiastic Mormons promised him money to buy it or act as security. Caswell has Joseph right where he wants him--and then let's him get away and we're left with just his word. Caswell probably realized how implausible this looked, since he changed his story the next time he published it.


Response to claim: "Joseph Smith did the exact same thing with the Greek Psalter that he did with the Book of Abraham papyri and the Kinderhook Plates"

The author(s) of MormonThink make(s) the following claim:

Joseph Smith did the exact same thing with the Greek Psalter that he did with the Book of Abraham papyri and the Kinderhook Plates. He saw an ancient document, one that he assumed no one in the world could translate and he said that he could translate it and he said what it was. And he was just as wrong with the Greek Psalter as he was with the Book of Abraham papyri and the Kinderhook plates.

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim is false

Joseph never produced a translation of the Greek Psalter, so how it is that he "did the exact same thing" as he did with the Book of Abraham or Kinderhook Plates? We repeat: if Joseph truly said this, then why didn't Caswell give him the book or sell him the book so Joseph could do publicly and in print what Caswell claimed Joseph wanted to do? The story doesn't hang together. Think about it.


Response to claim: "it seems likely that the event probably happened pretty much as Caswall related"

The author(s) of MormonThink make(s) the following claim:

Professor Caswall likely exaggerated and perhaps embellished some details like Joseph's grammar to make Joseph seem even more ignorant but based on the above it seems likely that the event probably happened pretty much as Caswall related.

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

Well of course the critics believe Caswall's story, and they state that Caswall "exaggerated" and "perhaps embellished" details, but he is considered credible nonetheless! MormonThink does not examine or address the evidence at all--they just assume that Caswell must have told the truth. Here's the problem, though: Caswell left two versions of the story, and they don't match. So, he was not telling the truth in at least part of a least one statement. And, so they admit that Caswell exaggerated and embellished (i.e., he lied) about some things, why ought we to trust him about the thing that matters?


Response to claim: "If this was the only translation issue that was damaging to the prophet then we would dismiss it"

The author(s) of MormonThink make(s) the following claim:

If this was the only translation issue that was damaging to the prophet then we would dismiss it as it wasn't really a translation even if Joseph was in error as to the identification of the document. However, given the more substantial translation problems identified by critics with the Book of Abraham, Kinderhook Plates and the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible, the Greek Psalter incident needs to be scrutinized as well to look for any evidence that Joseph was really an accurate seer and translator.

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

So if this was the only event, then the critics would ignore it as not providing useful data based upon the lack of evidence. However, because there are other translation events, they won't ignore it, because it somehow now provides useful data.

Right.


Response to claim: "if he really translated the Book of Abraham from Egyptian papyri then he would know what Egyptian characters are"

The author(s) of MormonThink make(s) the following claim:

If Joseph really translated the Book of Mormon from reformed Egyptian characters and if he really translated the Book of Abraham from Egyptian papyri then he would know what Egyptian characters are and what they meant. Some defenders of the faith have said that some Greek characters are similar in appearance to some Egyptian Hieroglyphics. That may be true (we haven't studied this to validate this claim). However, since Joseph translated two whole books (over 500 pages) from reformed Egyptian and ancient Egyptian characters, he would have known that the Greek writings were not a Dictionary of Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics. His failure to recognize this casts doubt on his ability to translate ancient Egyptian or reformed Egyptian characters.

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

The reformed Egyptian was altered and not like any other written language, according to Moroni (Mormon 9꞉34). Why would Joseph necessarily know what Egyptian characters are and what they meant? He was not an academic translator, studying the text and symbols and developing meaning--he was receiving translation by revelation. No one argues that Joseph worked like a regular translator when he produced scripture such as the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, or the revision of the Bible (JST). MormonThink is clouding the issue.


Response to claim: "Although the Greek Psalter incident is the translation effort with the least amount of significance, it further damages Joseph's claims to be a true seer"

The author(s) of MormonThink make(s) the following claim:

Although the Greek Psalter incident is the translation effort with the least amount of significance, it further damages Joseph's claims to be a true seer. It's hard for many of us, that have analyzed the accounts of all of the ancient writings that Joseph claimed to have translated, to accept the fact that all of Joseph's translations, that can be proven as accurate, have all been proven to be incorrect. If nothing else, it was another opportunity for Joseph to prove himself to be a seer but he did not.

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

How did Joseph "not prove himself"? He didn't translate anything. Caswell claimed that Joseph identified the Greek letters as something else--yet, by this point Joseph had studied Greek academically. The first thing you study is the alphabet. Caswell's claim doesn't wash. Joseph provided no translation of the Psalter. Caswell had a chance to get Joseph to commit himself to a translation, but refused to let Joseph take the book to translate: which was supposedly the whole reason he came to Nauvoo! Joseph walked right into the trap, and then Caswell essentially ran away. This is utterly implausible and shows Caswell to be lying, just as he lied about Joseph's language and manner of speech. Furthermore, other witnesses reported that they told Caswell the characters were Greek--so, even if Joseph didn't know, he had friends who would have tipped him off.

John Taylor:

Concerning Mr. Caswall, I was at Nauvoo during the time of his visit. He came for the purpose of looking for evil. He was a wicked man, and associated with reprobates, mobocrats, and murderers. It is, I suppose, true that he was reverend gentleman; but it has been no uncommon thing with us to witness associations of this kind, nor for reverend gentlemen; so called, to be found leading on mobs to deeds of plunder and death. I saw Mr. Caswall in the printing office at Nauvoo; he had with him an old manuscript, and professed to be anxious to know what it was. I looked at it, and told him that I believed it was a Greek manuscript. In his book, he states that it was a Greek Psalter; but that none of the Mormons told him what it was. Herein is a falsehood, for I told him. Yet these are the men and books that we are to have our evidence from.[8]


Response to claim: "There is a difference between an isolated incident and a pattern"

The author(s) of MormonThink make(s) the following claim:

There is a difference between an isolated incident and a pattern. The Greek Psalter, Book of Abraham, Kinderhook Plates, the Anthon Manuscript, and some would add the Book of Mormon (DNA evidence, anachronisms, lack of archaeological, anthropological, cultural, linguistic, and metallurgical evidence to support claims), reveal a disturbing pattern in Joseph Smith's methods and perhaps his character.

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

One must first demonstrate a pattern before making sweeping claims about it. Notice the effort to sneak in a huge area of discussion on the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham—we won't handle those here, though there are lots of resources on these issues. The Greek Psalter episode does, however, reveal a "disturbing pattern" with MormonThink, and perhaps their character. They ignore data that does not fit their theory, and generally don't even mention it. They act as if things are proved when they have not proved them. And, they repeat the same charges over and over again.


Notes

  1. ↑ Craig L. Foster, "Henry Caswall: Anti-Mormon Extraordinaire," Brigham Young University Studies 35 no. 4 (1995-96), 144–159.
  2. ↑ Henry Caswall, The Prophet of the Nineteenth Century, or, the Rise, Progress, and Present State of the Mormons, or Latter-Day Saints : To Which Is Appended an Analysis of the Book of Mormon (London: Printed for J. G. F. & J. Rivington, 1843), 223. off-site
  3. ↑ [John Taylor,] "Three Nights: A Public Discussion between the Revds. C. W. Cleeve, James Robertson, and Philip Cater, and Elder John Taylor of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, at Boulogne-Sur-Mer, France" (Liverpool: John Taylor, 1850), 5. off-site
  4. ↑ Rev. Henry Caswall, The City of the Mormons: Or, Three Days at Nauvoo in 1842 (London: Rivington, 1842), 5, 35–36.
  5. ↑ Unsigned author, "Reward of Merit," Times and Seasons 4 no. 23 (15 October 1843), 364. off-site GospeLink
  6. ↑ Dean Jessee, Ron Esplin, and Richard Lyman Bushman (editors), The Joseph Smith Papers: Journals, Vol. 1: 1832–1839 (Church Historian's Press, 2008), 107. ISBN 1570088497.
  7. ↑ Dean Jessee, Ron Esplin, and Richard Lyman Bushman (editors), The Joseph Smith Papers: Journals, Vol. 1: 1832–1839 (Church Historian's Press, 2008), 135. ISBN 1570088497.
  8. ↑ [John Taylor,] "Three Nights: A Public Discussion between the Revds. C. W. Cleeve, James Robertson, and Philip Cater, and Elder John Taylor of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, at Boulogne-Sur-Mer, France" (Liverpool: John Taylor, 1850), 5.
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