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Difference between revisions of "Criticism of Mormonism/Books/Mormonism Unmasked/Chapter 6"
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| + | |title=Mormonism Unmasked | ||
|claim=The author attempts to distinguish between what he calls the "Mormon Jesus" and the Jesus of the Bible. | |claim=The author attempts to distinguish between what he calls the "Mormon Jesus" and the Jesus of the Bible. | ||
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| − | | | + | |propaganda=The idea of a "Mormon Jesus" versus the "Jesus of the Bible" is absurd, since Latter-day Saints worship the Jesus of the Bible. |
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| + | {{:Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:1:Sameness_of_Jesus'_humanity}} | ||
| + | {{:Question: Do Latter-day Saints believe in a "different" Jesus than "mainstream" Christians?}} | ||
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==Response to claim: 85 - "Mormonism also claims that Christ's death brought salvation to an 'infinite number of earths'"== | ==Response to claim: 85 - "Mormonism also claims that Christ's death brought salvation to an 'infinite number of earths'"== | ||
{{IndexClaimItemShort | {{IndexClaimItemShort | ||
Revision as of 10:38, 23 February 2015
- REDIRECTTemplate:Test3
Contents
- 1 Response to claims made in "Chapter 6: This is Good News?"
- 1.1 77-78
- 1.2 Claim The author states that Jesus promised that his Church would never be destroyed.
- 1.3 Claim The author states that the first "fallacy" of Mormonism is that it claims that the Church's teaching are the same as those of the early Church and that it is a restoration of that Church.
- 1.4 Claim The author states that the second "fallacy" of Mormonism is the claim that there was a great Apostasy.
- 1.5 Claim The author states that Mormons believe that Adam and Eve "existed as purely spiritual beings although living on the earth," and that as a result of eating the fruit of the tree of good and evil, that "both Adam and Eve lost their purely 'spiritual state' and became physical beings." The author contrasts this idea with the Bible, which "says that God originally created Adam and Eve from material substance."
- 1.6 Claim The author claims that "Mormon thinkers speak of Adam and Eve as therefore fulfilling God's will, not having sinned at all." The author quotes Joseph Fielding Smith as saying, "I'm very, very grateful that in the Book of Mormon, and I think elsewhere in our scriptures the fall of Adam has not been called a sin. It wasn't a sin..."
- 1.7 Response to claim: 84 - The author attempts to distinguish between what he calls the "Mormon Jesus" and the Jesus of the Bible
- 1.8 Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb: The "sameness of Jesus" and humanity
- 1.9 Question: Do Latter-day Saints believe in a "different" Jesus than "mainstream" Christians?
- 1.10 Response to claim: 85 - "Mormonism also claims that Christ's death brought salvation to an 'infinite number of earths'"
- 1.11 Question: Is Jesus Christ the savior of other worlds?
- 1.12 Other leaders who have taught similar ideas
- 1.13 Other views
- 1.14 Conclusion
- 1.15 Claim The author claims that Mormons believe that "most of the inhabitants of the terrestrial kingdom, it seems, are inactive or at least not fully faithful Mormons."
- 1.16 Claim The author states the Mormons believe that "Hell, in fact, is reserved for apostates who leave the church."
Response to claims made in "Chapter 6: This is Good News?"
| Chapter 5: Confronting the Mormon Jesus | A FAIR Analysis of: Mormonism Unmasked A work by author: R. Philip Roberts
|
Chapter 7: Revealing Revelations |
77-78
Claim
The author states that Jesus promised that his Church would never be destroyed.
Author's source(s)
Matthew 16:13-20
Response
Jesus told Peter, "upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
Summary: Is Jesus' teaching about "the gates of hell" prevailing against "the rock" inconsistent with a belief in a universal apostasy?
78
Claim
The author states that the first "fallacy" of Mormonism is that it claims that the Church's teaching are the same as those of the early Church and that it is a restoration of that Church.
Response
FAIR WIKI EDITORS: Check sources
78
Claim
The author states that the second "fallacy" of Mormonism is the claim that there was a great Apostasy.
Response
Prediction of
Summary: Does the Bible predict that an apostasy would occur?
82
Claim
The author states that Mormons believe that Adam and Eve "existed as purely spiritual beings although living on the earth," and that as a result of eating the fruit of the tree of good and evil, that "both Adam and Eve lost their purely 'spiritual state' and became physical beings." The author contrasts this idea with the Bible, which "says that God originally created Adam and Eve from material substance."
Author's source(s)
2 Nephi 2꞉22, Moses 3꞉5-7
Response
The author got one fact incorrect:
Every Latter-day Saints believes that Adam and Eve were created from the material substance of this earth, just as the Bible says. The author has misunderstood 2 Nephi 2:22 and Moses 3:5-7.
2 Nephi 2:22 says nothing about Adam and Eve living as "purely spiritual beings""
And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
Moses 3:5-7 specifically states that Adam was formed of the dust of the earth:
And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.
82
Claim
The author claims that "Mormon thinkers speak of Adam and Eve as therefore fulfilling God's will, not having sinned at all." The author quotes Joseph Fielding Smith as saying, "I'm very, very grateful that in the Book of Mormon, and I think elsewhere in our scriptures the fall of Adam has not been called a sin. It wasn't a sin..."
Author's source(s)
Doctrines of the Gospel, 20, quoted in Joseph Fielding Smith, "Fall-Atonement-Resurrection-Sacrament" in Charge to Religious Educators, 124.
Response
- Latter-day Saints distinguish between a sin and a transgression. The Second Article of Faith states that Adam committed a transgression.
We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
- Here's the full quote from Joseph Fielding Smith. He states that Adam committed a transgression rather than a sin:
“I’m very, very grateful that in the Book of Mormon, and I think elsewhere in our scriptures, the fall of Adam has not been called a sin. It wasn’t a sin. … What did Adam do? The very thing the Lord wanted him to do; and I hate to hear anybody call it a sin, for it wasn’t a sin. Did Adam sin when he partook of the forbidden fruit? I say to you, no, he did not! Now, let me refer to what was written in the book of Moses in regard to the command God gave to Adam. [Moses 3:16–17.]
“Now this is the way I interpret that: The Lord said to Adam, here is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you want to stay here, then you cannot eat of that fruit. If you want to stay here, then I forbid you to eat it. But you may act for yourself, and you may eat of it if you want to. And if you eat it, you will die.
“I see a great difference between transgressing the law and committing a sin”
Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, on lds.org. off-site
Response to claim: 84 - The author attempts to distinguish between what he calls the "Mormon Jesus" and the Jesus of the Bible
The author(s) of Mormonism Unmasked make(s) the following claim:
The author attempts to distinguish between what he calls the "Mormon Jesus" and the Jesus of the Bible.
FAIR's Response
Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb: The "sameness of Jesus" and humanity
Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb wrote:[1]
Mormonism can be a controversial topic for many non-Mormon Christians, but I have come to the conclusion that no theology has ever managed to capture the essential sameness of Jesus with us in a more striking manner. [2]:83
Question: Do Latter-day Saints believe in a "different" Jesus than "mainstream" Christians?
"Mormon Beliefs About Jesus" versus "Christian Beliefs About Jesus": Mormons worship the Jesus Christ of the Bible
It would be enlightening for any Latter-day Saint to read this description of the "Mormon Jesus" in the left column and see just how much of this is recognizable as church doctrine. The list is taken from page One Nation Under Gods, p. 378 (PB). This claim is repeated in the author's later work Becoming Gods—The "Mormon Jesus" versus the "Traditional Jesus".
| The "mainstream Christian" author's misrepresentation of "Mormon Beliefs About Jesus" | Jesus Christ, as He is actually viewed by Latter-day Saints | For more information... |
|---|---|---|
| A literal son (spirit-child) of a god (Elohim) and his wife. |
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| The elder brother of all spirits born in the pre-existence to Heavenly Father. |
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| A polygamous Jewish male. |
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| One of three gods overseeing this planet. |
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| Atoned only for Adam's transgression by sweating blood in Gethsemane. |
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| The literal spirit brother of Lucifer. |
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| Jesus' sacrificial death is not able to cleanse some people of all their sins. |
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| There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God. |
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Response to claim: 85 - "Mormonism also claims that Christ's death brought salvation to an 'infinite number of earths'"
The author(s) of Mormonism Unmasked make(s) the following claim:
The author claims that "Mormonism also claims that Christ's death brought salvation to an 'infinite number of earths'"Author's sources: Doctrines of the Gospel, 25-26.
FAIR's Response
Question: Is Jesus Christ the savior of other worlds?
Very little has been revealed on this subject
The closest we have to an authoritative statement is an inference from Doctrine and Covenants 76:
For we saw him [Jesus Christ], even on the right hand of God; and we heard [a] voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father — that by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God. (verses 23–24.)
The generally accepted interpretation of this verse is that if Jesus is the creator of many worlds, and the inhabitants of these worlds are children of the Father (both by birth and by covenant), then Jesus must be their savior. This is probably the understanding of the majority of Latter-day Saints.
This interpretation is strengthened by a poetic version of section 76 (probably written by WW Phelps, but with input from Joseph) in which the vision is restated:
And I give a great voice bearing record from heav'n,
He's the Savior and only begotten of God;
By him, of him, and through him, the worlds were all made,
Even all that career in the heavens so broad.
Whose inhabitants, too, from the first to the last.Are sav'd by the very same Saviour of ours;
And, of course, are begotten God's daughters and sons
By the very same truths and the very same powers. [3]
Joseph Fielding Smith speculated that Jesus Christ might be the savior of other worlds
Joseph Fielding Smith said "Perhaps this is the reason Jesus Christ was sent here instead of some other world, for in some other world they would not have crucified Him, and His presence was needed here because of the extreme wickedness of the inhabitants of this earth" (The Signs of the Times, pg. 5)
Other leaders who have taught similar ideas
Other Church leaders have echoed the same ideas, indicating that it is by far the majority position among Latter-day Saint leaders:
Lorenzo Snow
Thousands of years before He [the Savior] came upon earth, the Father had watched His course and knew that He could depend upon Him when the salvation of worlds should be at stake; and He was not disappointed.[4]
Bruce R. McConkie
"Our Lord's jurisdiction and power extend far beyond the limits of this one small earth on which we dwell. He is, under the Father, the Creator of worlds without number. (Moses 1:33.) And through the power of his atonement the inhabitants of these worlds, the revelation says, 'are begotten sons and daughters unto God' (D&C 76:24), which means that the atonement of Christ, being literally and truly infinite, applies to an infinite number of earths."[5]
Marion G. Romney
Jesus Christ, in the sense of being its Creator and Redeemer, is the Lord of the whole universe. Except for his mortal ministry accomplished on this earth, his service and relationship to other worlds and their inhabitants are the same as his service and relationship to this earth and its inhabitants....In short, Jesus Christ, through whom God created the universe, was chosen [as the Redeemer in the pre-earthly councils] to put into operation throughout the universe [God the Father]'s great plan 'to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.'...All who have a true concept of Jesus Christ and who have received a witness by the spirit of his divinity are ever stirred by the records of his life. They see in all that he said and did confirmation of his universal Lordship, both as Creator and Redeemer." [6]
Russell M. Nelson
The mercy of the Atonement extends not only to an infinite number of people, but also to an infinite number of worlds created by Him.[7]
Other views
Brigham Young, on the other hand, taught that each world had its own Adam and Eve, and its own savior
Brigham Young gave a sermon in General Conference on 8 October 1854 in which he espoused a different view:
Let me open the eyes of your understanding. There has never been a time when the creations of worlds commenced. They are from eternity to eternity in their creations and redemption. After they are organized they experience the good and the evil, the light and the dark, the bitter and the sweet as you and I do. There never was a time when there were not worlds in existence as this world is, and they pass through similar changes in abiding their creation preparatory to exaltation. Worlds have always been in progress, and eternally will be.
Every world has had an Adam and an Eve, named so simply because the first man is always called Adam and the first woman, Eve. And the oldest son has always had the privilege of being ordained, appointed and called to be the heir of the family if he does not rebel against the Father, and he is the Savior of the family. Every world that has been created has been created upon the same principle. They may vary in their varieties, yet the eternity is one: it is one eternal round. [8]
Conclusion
Brigham's statement is probably where our critics are getting the idea we believe in a different savior for each world. However, Brigham's statement doesn't settle the question. In the early Utah period, there was a great deal of exploration from the pulpit of the limits of LDS belief, but these sermons were not considered final or authoritative. Such ideas play little, if any, part in present-day LDS teaching or discussion.
86
Claim
The author claims that Mormons believe that "most of the inhabitants of the terrestrial kingdom, it seems, are inactive or at least not fully faithful Mormons."
Response
The author got one fact incorrect:
89
Claim
The author states the Mormons believe that "Hell, in fact, is reserved for apostates who leave the church."
Response
FAIR WIKI EDITORS: Check sources
- ↑ "Webb is Professor of Philosophy and Religion at Wabash College in Crawfordsville, Indiana. He is a graduate of Wabash College and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago before returning to his alma mater to teach. Born in 1961 he grew up at Englewood Christian Church, an evangelical church. He joined the Disciples of Christ during He was briefly a Lutheran, and on Easter Sunday, 2007, he officially came into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church."
- ↑ Stephen H. Webb, "Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints (reprint from his book Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter (Oxford University Press, 2012)," Brigham Young University Studies 50 no. 3 (2011).
- ↑ Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons 4 no. 6 (1 February 1843), 83, stanzas 19-20; emphasis added. off-site GospeLink direct off-site. Michael Hicks argued that Joseph was not the author of the poetic paraphrase in "Joseph Smith, W. W. Phelps, and the Poetic Paraphrase of 'The Vision'," Journal of Mormon History 20/2 (1994): 63–84.
- ↑ Lorenzo Snow, Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, compiled by Clyde J. Williams, (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1984), 93. ISBN 0884945170. As cited in Tad R. Callister, The Infinite Atonement (Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book, 2000).
- ↑ Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2nd edition, (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966). GL direct link
- ↑ Marion G. Romney, "Jesus Christ, Lord of the Universe," Improvement Era (November 1968), 46,48. As cited in Tad R. Callister, The Infinite Atonement (Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book, 2000).
- ↑ Russell M. Nelson, "The Atonement," Ensign (November 1996): 35. As cited in Tad R. Callister, The Infinite Atonement (Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book, 2000).
- ↑ Brigham Young, "For This Is Life Eternal," in Eldon Watson (editor), Brigham Young Addresses (1982), 2:230. Brigham Young made similar statements on other occasions; for example: "There is no time when worlds have not been created and exalted; there have always been an Adam and an Eve—the first man and woman, and their oldest son is heir, and should be our Savior. We have one Father and we all are brethren." Journal of the Southern Indian Mission—Diary of Thomas D. Brown, p. 87–89; Friday, 6th Octr. 1854. "President Young said there never was any world created & peopled nor never would be but what would be redeemed by the shedding of the blood of the savior of that world." Journal of Wilford Woodruff; Ms/f/115, Church Historical Department; 12 May 1867. "All worlds have their God, their Savior, their sin, their priesthood, and can choose which they like, but beginning man rejected the priesthood by assuming to be a law unto himself—all other things abide this law." Minutes of Meetings Held in Provo City; Film/979.2/Z99/v. 2, BYU Microfilm Room; Sunday, 2 p.m. 3 October 1869.