Difference between revisions of "Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink"

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{{Epigraph|I fantasize about a full-blown faith-destroying session. In real life, I did put the bishop in his place over polygamy. He kept saying I was wrong about Joseph having other wives and being illegal and such. I proved him wrong and he ate crow. twas fun. <br>&mdash;MormonThink's first managing editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" in the thread "Anyone Fantasize About a Showdown with SP or Bishop?" on ''Recovery from Mormonism'' (an ex-Mormon message board), Feb. 21, 2012, 12:50PM. <ref>Comment by MormonThink's founding editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" on the ex-Mormon message board ''Recovery from Mormonism'', Feb. 21, 2012 at 12:50PM. After FairMormon posted this quote, the original was deleted from the RFM board. The original thread in which it appeared, however, still exists here: Thread [http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,423418,423816 Anyone Fantasize About a Showdown with SP or Bishop?], ''Recovery from Mormonism'', posted Feb. 20, 2012.</ref>
 
{{Epigraph|I fantasize about a full-blown faith-destroying session. In real life, I did put the bishop in his place over polygamy. He kept saying I was wrong about Joseph having other wives and being illegal and such. I proved him wrong and he ate crow. twas fun. <br>&mdash;MormonThink's first managing editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" in the thread "Anyone Fantasize About a Showdown with SP or Bishop?" on ''Recovery from Mormonism'' (an ex-Mormon message board), Feb. 21, 2012, 12:50PM. <ref>Comment by MormonThink's founding editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" on the ex-Mormon message board ''Recovery from Mormonism'', Feb. 21, 2012 at 12:50PM. After FairMormon posted this quote, the original was deleted from the RFM board. The original thread in which it appeared, however, still exists here: Thread [http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,423418,423816 Anyone Fantasize About a Showdown with SP or Bishop?], ''Recovery from Mormonism'', posted Feb. 20, 2012.</ref>
 
}}
 
}}
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{{parabreak}}
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{{Epigraph|My dream and hope and aspiration: Members of the 1stP and the Q12 are walked out of the [Church Office Building] or their homes in handcuffs for tax evasion, racketeering, money-laundering,...Add the gender discrimination and fraud suits that many will pile onto the criminal charges, and I think 2013-14 just might be a banner moment. Maybe I'm dreaming. But some of us are working on it.<br>&mdash;MormonThink's second managing editor, posting as "Jesus Smith" on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', December 26, 2012. <ref>Comment by MormonThink's second managing editor, David Twede (posting as "Jesus Smith"), on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', December 26, 2012.</ref>  
 
{{Epigraph|My dream and hope and aspiration: Members of the 1stP and the Q12 are walked out of the [Church Office Building] or their homes in handcuffs for tax evasion, racketeering, money-laundering,...Add the gender discrimination and fraud suits that many will pile onto the criminal charges, and I think 2013-14 just might be a banner moment. Maybe I'm dreaming. But some of us are working on it.<br>&mdash;MormonThink's second managing editor, posting as "Jesus Smith" on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', December 26, 2012. <ref>Comment by MormonThink's second managing editor, David Twede (posting as "Jesus Smith"), on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', December 26, 2012.</ref>  
 
}}
 
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{{Epigraph|Phillips is not discouraged by the ruling, according to a statement put out by David Twede, a spokesman for MormonThink.com, where Phillips is the managing editor. "Although this ruling represents a setback for our cause, we remain steadfast in our commitment to bring the LDS Corporation to justice," Phillips is quoted as saying. "For people around the world, this case has brought to light the truth: The LDS organization has committed fraud, and fraud is a serious crime."<br>"British judge tosses fraud suit against Mormon prophet," ''Salt Lake Tribune'' (20 March 2014) {{link|url=http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57706938-78/church-court-lds-case.html.csp}}
 
{{Epigraph|Phillips is not discouraged by the ruling, according to a statement put out by David Twede, a spokesman for MormonThink.com, where Phillips is the managing editor. "Although this ruling represents a setback for our cause, we remain steadfast in our commitment to bring the LDS Corporation to justice," Phillips is quoted as saying. "For people around the world, this case has brought to light the truth: The LDS organization has committed fraud, and fraud is a serious crime."<br>"British judge tosses fraud suit against Mormon prophet," ''Salt Lake Tribune'' (20 March 2014) {{link|url=http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57706938-78/church-court-lds-case.html.csp}}
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}}
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}} -->
  
 
==Overview==
 
==Overview==
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===Joseph Smith===
 
===Joseph Smith===
−
 
 
{{SummaryItem
 
{{SummaryItem
−
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph Running with the Plates
+
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Moroni's Visitation
−
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Running with Gold Plates"  
+
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Moroni's Visitation"  
−
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/runningweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that Joseph could probably not have run with the gold plates because he had a limp from his leg operation as a child, and that his story of running with the plates is likely a "tall tale."
+
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/moroniweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that Moroni's visit was likely a "dream or hallucination."
−
|sublink1=Response to claim: "Although the plates are often referred to as 'gold plates' they didn't necessary have to be made of pure gold"
+
|sublink1=Response to claim: "why didn't this wake up Joseph's brothers who were sleeping in the same room with him?"
−
|sublink2=Response to claim: "It's inconceivable that anybody could run carrying a 50 lb. set of metal plates, jumping over logs and such and be able to outrun three men"
 
−
}}
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
{{SummaryItem
 
−
|link=Book of Mormon/Plagiarism accusations/Comoros Islands and Moroni/Captain Kidd
 
−
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph Smith, Captain Kidd, Cumorah And Moroni"
 
−
|summary=Grant Palmer published a paper called "Joseph Smith, Captain Kidd, Cumorah And Moroni" in the ''John Whitmer Historical Association Journal'' in 2014. Palmer asserts that Joseph Smith acquired the names "Cumorah" and "Moroni" by reading stories of Captain Kidd in his youth. Palmer concludes that it is "reasonable to assert that Joseph Smith's hill in the "land of Camorah" [Comorah/Cumorah], "city of Moroni," and "land of Moroni" <ref>Grant Palmer, John Whitmer Historical Association vol. 34 no. 1 Spring/Summer 2014</ref> We respond to these claims in this article.
 
 
}}
 
}}
−
 
−
===Other Latter-day Saint Scriptures===
 
−
{{SummaryItem
 
−
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Doctrine & Covenants
 
−
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Doctrine & Covenants"
 
−
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/d&c.htm}}) MormonThink concludes that the "D&C seems to betray it's origins as more likely coming from man and not from God as there have been many, many substantive changes to the D&C with no explanation."
 
−
|sublink1=Response to claim: "Note that Adam and Michael are separate beings according to the vision. This contradicts Joseph’s later teachings, that Adam and Michael are the same person"
 
−
}}
 
−
 
−
===Visions===
 
 
{{SummaryItem
 
{{SummaryItem
 
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The First Vision
 
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The First Vision
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|sublink27=Response to claim: "the first vision version of April 1838 added significant material that bolstered his authority during a time of crisis"
 
|sublink27=Response to claim: "the first vision version of April 1838 added significant material that bolstered his authority during a time of crisis"
 
}}
 
}}
−
{{SummaryItem
+
<!-- Book of Abraham -->
−
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Moroni's Visitation
 
−
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Moroni's Visitation"
 
−
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/moroniweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that Moroni's visit was likely a "dream or hallucination."
 
−
|sublink1=Response to claim: "why didn't this wake up Joseph's brothers who were sleeping in the same room with him?"
 
−
}}
 
−
 
 
−
===Other Translation Related Topics===
 
 
{{SummaryItem
 
{{SummaryItem
 
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Kinderhook Plates
 
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Kinderhook Plates
Line 264: Line 238:
 
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/kinderhookweb.htm}}) MormonThink editors conclude that "If Joseph did misrepresent himself about the Kinderhook Plates, for whatever reason, we wonder what else he may have misrepresented about himself?" <br><br>We note that the most recent new data on this subject presented by historian Don Bradley (who is not an apologist, nor is he a member of FairMormon) invalidates the old apologetic arguments. The new data suggests that Joseph attempted to translate a character on the Kinderhook Plates manually by matching it to a similar character in the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (which, by the way, actually has nothing to do with actual Egyptian). The "translation" recorded by William Clayton ''matched'' the explanation given for the character in the GAEL. See: [http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Don-Bradley-Kinderhook-President-Joseph-Has-Translated-a-Portion-1.pdf “President Joseph has Translated a Portion": Solving the Mystery of the Kinderhook Plates] by Don Bradley, 2011 FAIR Conference.
 
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/kinderhookweb.htm}}) MormonThink editors conclude that "If Joseph did misrepresent himself about the Kinderhook Plates, for whatever reason, we wonder what else he may have misrepresented about himself?" <br><br>We note that the most recent new data on this subject presented by historian Don Bradley (who is not an apologist, nor is he a member of FairMormon) invalidates the old apologetic arguments. The new data suggests that Joseph attempted to translate a character on the Kinderhook Plates manually by matching it to a similar character in the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (which, by the way, actually has nothing to do with actual Egyptian). The "translation" recorded by William Clayton ''matched'' the explanation given for the character in the GAEL. See: [http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Don-Bradley-Kinderhook-President-Joseph-Has-Translated-a-Portion-1.pdf “President Joseph has Translated a Portion": Solving the Mystery of the Kinderhook Plates] by Don Bradley, 2011 FAIR Conference.
 
|sublink1=Response to claim: "The latest apologetic defense is to say that Joseph tried to do a secular translation"
 
|sublink1=Response to claim: "The latest apologetic defense is to say that Joseph tried to do a secular translation"
−
}}
 
−
{{SummaryItem
 
−
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Greek Psalter Incident
 
−
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page" The Greek Psalter Incident"
 
−
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/greekweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that because of the "Book of Abraham, Kinderhook Plates and the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible," that the Greek Psalter story "further damages Joseph's claims to be a true seer." 
 
−
|sublink1=Response to claim: "there really is little to look at to determine the accuracy of Joseph's translating ability of the BOM"
 
−
|sublink2=Response to claim: "it's prudent to examine whatever source documents that may exist for those translations...very few members are aware of Joseph's encounter with a Greek Psalter in 1842"
 
−
|sublink3=Response to claim: "Joseph...apparently knew Egyptian well enough to translate it"
 
−
|sublink4=Response to claim: "Joseph examined the ancient document and replied that it was a Dictionary of Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics"
 
−
|sublink5=Response to claim: "Caswall's experience with Joseph Smith at Nauvoo on 18-19 April 1842 expresses the frustration of an increasing number of LDS students with Joseph's ability to translate ancient documents"
 
−
|sublink6=Response to claim: "We regret that we could not find this issue discussed on the Church's official website"
 
−
|sublink7=Response to claim: "Critic's response. We support professor Caswall's response to Joseph's error"
 
−
|sublink8=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith did the exact same thing with the Greek Psalter that he did with the Book of Abraham papyri and the Kinderhook Plates"
 
−
|sublink9=Response to claim: "it seems likely that the event probably happened pretty much as Caswall related"
 
−
|sublink10=Response to claim: "If this was the only translation issue that was damaging to the prophet then we would dismiss it"
 
−
|sublink11=Response to claim: "if he really translated the Book of Abraham from Egyptian papyri then he would know what Egyptian characters are"
 
−
|sublink12=Response to claim: "Although the Greek Psalter incident is the translation effort with the least amount of significance, it further damages Joseph's claims to be a true seer"
 
−
|sublink13=Response to claim: "There is a difference between an isolated incident and a pattern"
 
 
}}
 
}}
 
{{SummaryItem
 
{{SummaryItem
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|sublink5=Response to claim: "Another error in the King James Version is the introduction of the name 'Lucifer'"
 
|sublink5=Response to claim: "Another error in the King James Version is the introduction of the name 'Lucifer'"
 
|sublink6=Response to claim: "Each time linguists make a new Bible translation....not one to date has confirmed any of Joseph Smith's inspired version passages"
 
|sublink6=Response to claim: "Each time linguists make a new Bible translation....not one to date has confirmed any of Joseph Smith's inspired version passages"
 +
}}
 +
<!--Zelph -->
 +
<!-- Moroni or Nephi -->
 +
{{SummaryItem
 +
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph Running with the Plates
 +
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Running with Gold Plates"
 +
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/runningweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that Joseph could probably not have run with the gold plates because he had a limp from his leg operation as a child, and that his story of running with the plates is likely a "tall tale."
 +
|sublink1=Response to claim: "Although the plates are often referred to as 'gold plates' they didn't necessary have to be made of pure gold"
 +
|sublink2=Response to claim: "It's inconceivable that anybody could run carrying a 50 lb. set of metal plates, jumping over logs and such and be able to outrun three men"
 
}}
 
}}
  
−
===Controversial Past Practices===
+
===History===
 
{{SummaryItem
 
{{SummaryItem
 
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Polygamy
 
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Polygamy
Line 368: Line 333:
 
|sublink26=Response to claim: "But the LDS Church did not change until 1978 - decades after all the other major religions did"
 
|sublink26=Response to claim: "But the LDS Church did not change until 1978 - decades after all the other major religions did"
 
}}
 
}}
 +
<!-- Prophets after Joseph -->
 +
{{SummaryItem
 +
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Greek Psalter Incident
 +
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page" The Greek Psalter Incident"
 +
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/greekweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that because of the "Book of Abraham, Kinderhook Plates and the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible," that the Greek Psalter story "further damages Joseph's claims to be a true seer." 
 +
|sublink1=Response to claim: "there really is little to look at to determine the accuracy of Joseph's translating ability of the BOM"
 +
|sublink2=Response to claim: "it's prudent to examine whatever source documents that may exist for those translations...very few members are aware of Joseph's encounter with a Greek Psalter in 1842"
 +
|sublink3=Response to claim: "Joseph...apparently knew Egyptian well enough to translate it"
 +
|sublink4=Response to claim: "Joseph examined the ancient document and replied that it was a Dictionary of Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics"
 +
|sublink5=Response to claim: "Caswall's experience with Joseph Smith at Nauvoo on 18-19 April 1842 expresses the frustration of an increasing number of LDS students with Joseph's ability to translate ancient documents"
 +
|sublink6=Response to claim: "We regret that we could not find this issue discussed on the Church's official website"
 +
|sublink7=Response to claim: "Critic's response. We support professor Caswall's response to Joseph's error"
 +
|sublink8=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith did the exact same thing with the Greek Psalter that he did with the Book of Abraham papyri and the Kinderhook Plates"
 +
|sublink9=Response to claim: "it seems likely that the event probably happened pretty much as Caswall related"
 +
|sublink10=Response to claim: "If this was the only translation issue that was damaging to the prophet then we would dismiss it"
 +
|sublink11=Response to claim: "if he really translated the Book of Abraham from Egyptian papyri then he would know what Egyptian characters are"
 +
|sublink12=Response to claim: "Although the Greek Psalter incident is the translation effort with the least amount of significance, it further damages Joseph's claims to be a true seer"
 +
|sublink13=Response to claim: "There is a difference between an isolated incident and a pattern"
 +
}}
 +
<!-- The Name of the Church -->
 +
<!-- Priesthood Restoration -->
 +
<!-- Rod of Aaron -->
  
−
===Temple Related Topics===
+
===Doctrine===
 +
{{SummaryItem
 +
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Conflicts with Science
 +
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Conflicts with Science"
 +
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/scienceweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that acceptance of scientific facts and a belief in God are incompatible. For example the website offers this conclusion: "What sounds more plausible; that dinosaurs and plants lived on our planet, died millions of years ago and turned into oil and coal and petrified wood, etc. from age and intense volcanic pressure OR that dinosaurs and plants really only existed on another planet and God moved all of the dinosaur bones, coal, oil, petrified wood, footprints and fossilized dinosaur poop here just to trick everybody but the clever Mormon gospel doctrine teachers?"
 +
}}
 +
{{SummaryItem
 +
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Tithing
 +
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Tithing"
 +
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/tithing.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes: "The church doesn't need the money," and that the Church "simply does not appear to really need the money.  President Hinckley acknowledged that no tithing dollars were needed to fund a $5 billion City Creek development & mall.  If it can make this kind of interest on its existing assets, then it doesn't appear to need any additional funding to operate quite comfortably on its income from the many businesses it owns without any tithing income."  The website recommends that members send their contributions elsewhere.
 +
|sublink1=Response to claim: "We are not called to tithe, but to make an offering to sustain the church"
 +
|sublink2=Response to claim: "It appears that the LDS Church defined tithing differently in the early days of the LDS Church than they do now"
 +
|sublink3=Response to claim: "We are tithe payers...When can we see the financial information?"
 +
|sublink4=Response to claim: "Tithing as the Catholic priest said above should be a gift, but the LDS Church makes it an obligation"
 +
|sublink5=Response to claim: "The guilt placed upon Latter-day Saints can be considerable"
 +
|sublink6=Response to claim: "The church owns many businesses that generate profits...The church has very little expense in relation to its income. The tithing money it receives is all tax-free. The property is exempt from taxes"
 +
|sublink7=Response to claim: "Imagine if you had a corporation where the business model was to have your customers give you 10% of their income every year"
 +
|sublink8=Response to claim: "The Church hardly spends any of its money on humanitarian aid"
 +
|sublink9=Response to claim: "the church has far more than it needs"
 +
|sublink10=Response to claim: "why couldn't the church sell its non-ecclesiastical assets and help the poor?"
 +
|sublink11=Response to claim: "Now they expect members (as if they didn't spend enough time in church service) to clean their own buildings on their days off"
 +
|sublink12=Response to claim: "probably not really the way Jesus would have intended his church to be run"
 +
|sublink13=Response to claim: "where did the money come from to buy the businesses, stocks and other investments to generate those profits?"
 +
|sublink14=Response to claim: "Of all the things Jesus would tell Gordon Hinckley, He told the Prophet to buy a mall?"
 +
|sublink15=Response to claim: "It's disgraceful to read some of the propaganda the Church puts out about tithing"
 +
|sublink16=Response to claim: "This absolute devotion of choosing to pay a religious entity that is worth some $100 Billion over feeding her children or paying the mortgage is nothing to be admired"
 +
|sublink17=Response to claim: "LDS leaders often hint at promises that tithe payers will receive increased income from paying tithes"
 +
|sublink18=Response to claim: "Many former Mormons continue to pay their tithing, but now do so to more traditional charities"
 +
|sublink19=Response to claim: "LDS tithes are hardly used for charity, but are used primarily to build the kingdom"
 +
|sublink20=Response to claim: "Advice for those who wish to be a member but not pay a full tithing"
 +
}}
 
{{SummaryItem
 
{{SummaryItem
 
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Temple
 
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Temple
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|sublink13=Response to claim: "the temple ceremony is not factual, as Adam and Eve are very likely a myth"
 
|sublink13=Response to claim: "the temple ceremony is not factual, as Adam and Eve are very likely a myth"
 
}}
 
}}
−
{{SummaryItem
 
−
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Kirtland Temple Dedication
 
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|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Kirtland Temple Dedication"
 
−
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/glossary/kirtlandtemplededication.htm}})Regarding the heavenly manifestations that accompanied the Kirtland Temple dedication, Mormonthink concludes that "It's likely that Joseph said he was seeing something angelic and told the congregation what he claimed to be seeing. Those in attendance relayed what Joseph said he saw. Everyone was so excited for this grand event, that they likely got caught up in the moment and imagined some extraordinary things."
 
−
|sublink1=Response to claim: "Some who were genuinely drunk probably added fuel to the environment by claiming to see things just to support their beloved prophet"
 
−
|sublink2=Response to claim: "Both Elias and Elijah also are reported to have appeared as two separate beings in the Kirtland temple....However, Elias and Elijah are the same person"
 
−
}}
 
−
 
−
===Church integrity===
 
 
{{SummaryItem
 
{{SummaryItem
 
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Lying for the Lord
 
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Lying for the Lord
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|sublink22=Response to claim: "The Manifesto of 1890 prohibiting polygamy, was in fact another attempt to dupe the U.S. government and to some extent, ordinary church members"
 
|sublink22=Response to claim: "The Manifesto of 1890 prohibiting polygamy, was in fact another attempt to dupe the U.S. government and to some extent, ordinary church members"
 
}}
 
}}
 +
<!-- Word of Wisdom -->
 
{{SummaryItem
 
{{SummaryItem
−
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Tithing
+
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Doctrine & Covenants
−
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Tithing"  
+
|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Doctrine & Covenants"
−
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/tithing.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes: "The church doesn't need the money," and that the Church "simply does not appear to really need the money.  President Hinckley acknowledged that no tithing dollars were needed to fund a $5 billion City Creek development & mall.  If it can make this kind of interest on its existing assets, then it doesn't appear to need any additional funding to operate quite comfortably on its income from the many businesses it owns without any tithing income."  The website recommends that members send their contributions elsewhere.
+
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/d&c.htm}}) MormonThink concludes that the "D&C seems to betray it's origins as more likely coming from man and not from God as there have been many, many substantive changes to the D&C with no explanation."  
−
|sublink1=Response to claim: "We are not called to tithe, but to make an offering to sustain the church"
+
|sublink1=Response to claim: "Note that Adam and Michael are separate beings according to the vision. This contradicts Joseph’s later teachings, that Adam and Michael are the same person"
−
|sublink2=Response to claim: "It appears that the LDS Church defined tithing differently in the early days of the LDS Church than they do now"
 
−
|sublink3=Response to claim: "We are tithe payers...When can we see the financial information?"
 
−
|sublink4=Response to claim: "Tithing as the Catholic priest said above should be a gift, but the LDS Church makes it an obligation"
 
−
|sublink5=Response to claim: "The guilt placed upon Latter-day Saints can be considerable"
 
−
|sublink6=Response to claim: "The church owns many businesses that generate profits...The church has very little expense in relation to its income. The tithing money it receives is all tax-free. The property is exempt from taxes"
 
−
|sublink7=Response to claim: "Imagine if you had a corporation where the business model was to have your customers give you 10% of their income every year"
 
−
|sublink8=Response to claim: "The Church hardly spends any of its money on humanitarian aid"
 
−
|sublink9=Response to claim: "the church has far more than it needs"
 
−
|sublink10=Response to claim: "why couldn't the church sell its non-ecclesiastical assets and help the poor?"
 
−
|sublink11=Response to claim: "Now they expect members (as if they didn't spend enough time in church service) to clean their own buildings on their days off"
 
−
|sublink12=Response to claim: "probably not really the way Jesus would have intended his church to be run"
 
−
|sublink13=Response to claim: "where did the money come from to buy the businesses, stocks and other investments to generate those profits?"
 
−
|sublink14=Response to claim: "Of all the things Jesus would tell Gordon Hinckley, He told the Prophet to buy a mall?"
 
−
|sublink15=Response to claim: "It's disgraceful to read some of the propaganda the Church puts out about tithing"
 
−
|sublink16=Response to claim: "This absolute devotion of choosing to pay a religious entity that is worth some $100 Billion over feeding her children or paying the mortgage is nothing to be admired"
 
−
|sublink17=Response to claim: "LDS leaders often hint at promises that tithe payers will receive increased income from paying tithes"
 
−
|sublink18=Response to claim: "Many former Mormons continue to pay their tithing, but now do so to more traditional charities"
 
−
|sublink19=Response to claim: "LDS tithes are hardly used for charity, but are used primarily to build the kingdom"
 
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|sublink20=Response to claim: "Advice for those who wish to be a member but not pay a full tithing"
 
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|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Conflicts with Science"
 
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|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/scienceweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that acceptance of scientific facts and a belief in God are incompatible. For example the website offers this conclusion: "What sounds more plausible; that dinosaurs and plants lived on our planet, died millions of years ago and turned into oil and coal and petrified wood, etc. from age and intense volcanic pressure OR that dinosaurs and plants really only existed on another planet and God moved all of the dinosaur bones, coal, oil, petrified wood, footprints and fossilized dinosaur poop here just to trick everybody but the clever Mormon gospel doctrine teachers?"
 
 
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|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph Smith, Captain Kidd, Cumorah And Moroni"
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|summary=Grant Palmer published a paper called "Joseph Smith, Captain Kidd, Cumorah And Moroni" in the ''John Whitmer Historical Association Journal'' in 2014. Palmer asserts that Joseph Smith acquired the names "Cumorah" and "Moroni" by reading stories of Captain Kidd in his youth. Palmer concludes that it is "reasonable to assert that Joseph Smith's hill in the "land of Camorah" [Comorah/Cumorah], "city of Moroni," and "land of Moroni" <ref>Grant Palmer, John Whitmer Historical Association vol. 34 no. 1 Spring/Summer 2014</ref> We respond to these claims in this article.
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|subject=A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Kirtland Temple Dedication"
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|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/glossary/kirtlandtemplededication.htm}})Regarding the heavenly manifestations that accompanied the Kirtland Temple dedication, Mormonthink concludes that "It's likely that Joseph said he was seeing something angelic and told the congregation what he claimed to be seeing. Those in attendance relayed what Joseph said he saw. Everyone was so excited for this grand event, that they likely got caught up in the moment and imagined some extraordinary things."
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|sublink1=Response to claim: "Some who were genuinely drunk probably added fuel to the environment by claiming to see things just to support their beloved prophet"
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|sublink2=Response to claim: "Both Elias and Elijah also are reported to have appeared as two separate beings in the Kirtland temple....However, Elias and Elijah are the same person"
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|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Overview
 
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Overview

Revision as of 11:11, 15 February 2015

  1. REDIRECTTemplate:Test3

Contents

A FairMormon Analysis of the critical website MormonThink.com

A MormonThink.com supporter displays a sign during "The American Atheists Mass Resignation Event" at the April 2014 General Conference
“Friend stayed at a Marriott and sent me this picture…He had mentioned he was staying at a Marriott, [I] told him to write it in.”—A MormonThink supporter urging his friend to vandalize a Book of Mormon at a Marriott Hotel. (click to enlarge)
I fantasize about a full-blown faith-destroying session. In real life, I did put the bishop in his place over polygamy. He kept saying I was wrong about Joseph having other wives and being illegal and such. I proved him wrong and he ate crow. twas fun.
—MormonThink's first managing editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" in the thread "Anyone Fantasize About a Showdown with SP or Bishop?" on Recovery from Mormonism (an ex-Mormon message board), Feb. 21, 2012, 12:50PM. [1]

Overview

The website mormonthink.com is designed to lead Church members into questioning their beliefs in a non-threatening manner by claiming to be "objective" and "balanced." For years that site claimed to be run by active members of the Church. In reality, however, they were "active" only in the sense that some of them still occasionally attended Church—they did not accept the Church's truth claims, and they had no interest in strengthening belief. Instead, the site portrays Church leaders as liars, Joseph Smith as a fraud and con-man, and the Church as "an oppressive empire building corporation." The site includes links to FairMormon as a way of demonstrating their claimed "balance."

Each page on MormonThink.com typically includes quotes from Church sources, large amounts of block text copied from websites critical of the Church, a few references to LDS apologetics that are followed by mocking refutations by critics, and and ending summary which generally agrees with the critics. The bottom of each page contains links to critical sites, believers sites and to some sites which they consider neutral.

MormonThink has had a series of managing editors, some of whom retained membership in the Church during their tenure while simultaneously mocking the Church's truth claims in online ex-Mormon forums. The transfer of the editorial position appears to be triggered by the resignation from the Church of the previous editor. The founding editor, who remains anonymous, resigned in 2012 in order to avoid discipline after the Church apparently identified him. In his parting letter to his Stake President (posted on the MormonThink website), he states,

You said that [MormonThink] is 'anti-Mormon, anti-Joseph Smith and anti-LDS Leadership'. However, you never said it wasn’t true. [2]

The most publicly well known managing editor was David Twede. Shortly after taking over the site, Twede was approached by local Church leaders and scheduled for discipline. After creating a media spectacle regarding his scheduled discipline, Twede resigned publicly during an appearance at the open mike session at the 2012 Ex-Mormon Foundation Conference in Salt Lake City. After emailing his resignation letter, Twede publicly challenged the Church,

If you’d like to help further, please, by all means, excommunicate the next editor at MormonThink. Have leaders of the Strengthening Members Committee stalk us. Even better, send in the Danites, please, please. That should propel MormonThink popularity into orbit around Kolob. [3]

MormonThink's third managing editor dropped hints throughout 2013 on ex-Mormon messages boards of something big that he was working on that would seriously shake the Church in October 2013:

All I can say is that, if what I am working on actually happens, the consequence will be that anyone who "chooses" to believe will be considered a brainwashed idiot. As for the apologists, there is no way they will be able to spin this. Their games will be up. End game for the apologists. It will take the big 15 to come up with any 'rescue'. Mormonism will be kicked into the area of Scientology. They will still have adherents, but the rest of the world will no longer give them a pass as 'good people'. [4]

MormonThink's directors consider Church attempts to impose discipline on their editors as a beneficial way of increasing traffic and visibility of the website, thus making Church membership more aware of its existence.

After the failure of Tom Phillips to bring President Monson to court in the United Kingdom, Phillips stepped down as managing editor of MormonThink and was replaced by Scott Carles.

The specific content of the MormonThink website is addressed in the articles listed below

The Book of Mormon

A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Translation of the Book of Mormon"

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm) This MormonThink article concludes that "Most of us could probably accept the translation method more easily if we had always been taught about the 'stone in the hat' method but we have a hard time accepting it now knowing that the leaders know about it but all the Church manuals, paintings, Church magazines, Church website, Church movies, missionary discussions, etc. purposely show a very different method."

A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Problems"

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm) This MormonThink article concludes that "While we cannot accept the Book of Mormon story as literally historical; we can, in a sense, accept the book as a somewhat symbolic embodiment of 'the American story' - the creation of a unique but "familiar" vision of manifest destiny, wars waged to protect the "liberties" of patriots, democracies created to secure the sanctity of these liberties, and the overarching struggle of good and evil - all roughly woven together within the framework of an American Christian apocalypse."

A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon"

Summary: ( http://www.mormonthink.com/lost116web.htm) This MormonThink article draws the following conclusion: "There's an episode of the cartoon South Park called "All About the Mormons". In the episode, a faithful LDS family tells the story of the lost 116 pages to a neighbor boy they are trying to convert. They tell this story as proof that Joseph Smith was telling the truth and Mormonism is true. Perhaps the most telling comment we've ever heard about the lost 116 pages debacle comes from the neighborhood boy, who, after hearing the story of the lost 116 pages, exclaims "'Wait, Mormons actually know this story and they still believe Joseph Smith was a Prophet?'"

A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon?"

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/josephweb.htm) This MormonThink article concludes that "The Nephites and Lamanites were primitive peoples. Joseph Smith would have been considered a scholar compared to any Indians that lived 2,000 years ago. Yet we don't question that the ancient Indians wrote the original Book of Mormon, but we totally reject the idea that a 19th century man couldn't have done the same thing. That makes reason stare." (FairMormon note: we find this conclusion somewhat insulting to Native Americans)

A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "The Witnesses"

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm) MormonThink concludes that the witnesses may have only seen the plates in a vision, rather than with their own eyes.

Joseph Smith

A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Moroni's Visitation"

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/moroniweb.htm) This MormonThink article concludes that Moroni's visit was likely a "dream or hallucination."

A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "The First Vision"

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm) MormonThink concludes that the story of the First Vision "is very simplified and perhaps not likely to be what really happened when you consider all the evidence contradicting the official account of the First Vision that we were all taught in Sunday School."

A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "The Kinderhook Plates"

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/kinderhookweb.htm) MormonThink editors conclude that "If Joseph did misrepresent himself about the Kinderhook Plates, for whatever reason, we wonder what else he may have misrepresented about himself?"

We note that the most recent new data on this subject presented by historian Don Bradley (who is not an apologist, nor is he a member of FairMormon) invalidates the old apologetic arguments. The new data suggests that Joseph attempted to translate a character on the Kinderhook Plates manually by matching it to a similar character in the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (which, by the way, actually has nothing to do with actual Egyptian). The "translation" recorded by William Clayton matched the explanation given for the character in the GAEL. See: “President Joseph has Translated a Portion": Solving the Mystery of the Kinderhook Plates by Don Bradley, 2011 FAIR Conference.

A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph's Translation of the Bible"

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/jst.htm) MormonThink concludes that the "Joseph Smith Translation" of the Bible needs to be added to the "Book of Abraham facsimiles and papyri, the Anthon Manuscript, the Kinderhook Plates, Joseph Smith’s Book of Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar and the Greek Psalter" as demonstrations that Joseph lacked the ability to translate anything.

A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Running with Gold Plates"

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/runningweb.htm) This MormonThink article concludes that Joseph could probably not have run with the gold plates because he had a limp from his leg operation as a child, and that his story of running with the plates is likely a "tall tale."

History

A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Polygamy"

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/joseph-smith-polygamy.htm) MormonThink concludes in this article that we should believe that Oliver Cowdery's claim that Joseph had an affair should be given credence because Oliver was also a Book of Mormon witness.

A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Blacks and the Priesthood"

Summary: ( http://www.mormonthink.com/blackweb.htm) This MormonThink article concludes that President Kimball did not actually receive a revelation ending the priesthood ban.

A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page" The Greek Psalter Incident"

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/greekweb.htm) This MormonThink article concludes that because of the "Book of Abraham, Kinderhook Plates and the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible," that the Greek Psalter story "further damages Joseph's claims to be a true seer."

Doctrine

A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Conflicts with Science"

Summary: ( http://www.mormonthink.com/scienceweb.htm) This MormonThink article concludes that acceptance of scientific facts and a belief in God are incompatible. For example the website offers this conclusion: "What sounds more plausible; that dinosaurs and plants lived on our planet, died millions of years ago and turned into oil and coal and petrified wood, etc. from age and intense volcanic pressure OR that dinosaurs and plants really only existed on another planet and God moved all of the dinosaur bones, coal, oil, petrified wood, footprints and fossilized dinosaur poop here just to trick everybody but the clever Mormon gospel doctrine teachers?"

A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Tithing"

Summary: ( http://www.mormonthink.com/tithing.htm) This MormonThink article concludes: "The church doesn't need the money," and that the Church "simply does not appear to really need the money. President Hinckley acknowledged that no tithing dollars were needed to fund a $5 billion City Creek development & mall. If it can make this kind of interest on its existing assets, then it doesn't appear to need any additional funding to operate quite comfortably on its income from the many businesses it owns without any tithing income." The website recommends that members send their contributions elsewhere.

A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Temple"

Summary: MormonThink originally removed this page containing detailed information about the temple, not because it was offensive to Latter-day Saints, but only because it was driving ex-Mormons' believing spouses away from examining their critical website. The content has been removed and added back several times. FairMormon responds to a number of issues raised which are not related to the explicit temple content that the site sometimes hosts. MormonThink concludes this page with a section titled "The absurdness of it all."

A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord"

Summary: ( http://www.mormonthink.com/lying.htm) MormonThink concludes that "lying was the method the church used as standard operating procedure to keep from losing its members." MormonThink also notes that "The message from current leaders is clear. Pretend that the LDS leaders are infallible, blindly obey and conform." (FAIR note: this is a standard position taken by many ex-Mormons after their disaffection with the Church).

A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Doctrine & Covenants"

Summary: ( http://www.mormonthink.com/d&c.htm) MormonThink concludes that the "D&C seems to betray it's origins as more likely coming from man and not from God as there have been many, many substantive changes to the D&C with no explanation."

The "Spin Free" Section

The following articles extract all of the primary and secondary source quotes from the critical site, places them within their original context when possible, and provides links to the original sources online. This allows you to read the critics' articles free of critical or apologetic "spin." You read the quotes and decide for yourself what to think, without any help from FairMormon or from the critics at MormonThink. If you want to check the sources, we make it easy to go back and look at the originals whenever possible. We won't tell you what to think, and neither will the critics.

For further information related to this topic

A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph Smith, Captain Kidd, Cumorah And Moroni"

Summary: Grant Palmer published a paper called "Joseph Smith, Captain Kidd, Cumorah And Moroni" in the John Whitmer Historical Association Journal in 2014. Palmer asserts that Joseph Smith acquired the names "Cumorah" and "Moroni" by reading stories of Captain Kidd in his youth. Palmer concludes that it is "reasonable to assert that Joseph Smith's hill in the "land of Camorah" [Comorah/Cumorah], "city of Moroni," and "land of Moroni" [5] We respond to these claims in this article.

A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Kirtland Temple Dedication"

Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/glossary/kirtlandtemplededication.htm)Regarding the heavenly manifestations that accompanied the Kirtland Temple dedication, Mormonthink concludes that "It's likely that Joseph said he was seeing something angelic and told the congregation what he claimed to be seeing. Those in attendance relayed what Joseph said he saw. Everyone was so excited for this grand event, that they likely got caught up in the moment and imagined some extraordinary things."

Overview of the MormonThink website

Summary: The web site MormonThink.com claims to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in objectively presenting the "truth" about Mormonism. In general, the conclusions reached by the site reflect negatively on the Church. The best explanation of the purpose of the website is offered the words of its own webmaster, and by the testimonials of ex-Mormons who claim that the site caused them to lose belief and leave the Church.

Response to MormonThink's list of 25 items that would allegedly "make the Church true"

Summary: ( http://www.mormonthink.com/endpage.htm) According to MormonThink.com, if the Church actually contained God's truth and authority, "we would expect the following things to have happened in this way." The following is a list of issues presented by the website followed by FairMormon's response. Most items on the list are standard anti-Mormon fare, issues FairMormon believes have been "asked and answered" many times. Nearly all points appeal to some type of intellectual or religious fundamentalism.

Mockery, hyperbole and nonsense on MormonThink.com

Summary: A compilation of mocking, hyperbolic and nonsense statements on the MormonThink site.

Media efforts in 2012 by Mormonthink managing editor David Twede

Summary: David Twede went to the media in September 2012 after claiming that the Church was attempting to discipline him for his online writings about Mitt Romney posted both on his blog and on MormonThink. Details regarding this effort may be found in the sub-articles linked here.

Media efforts in 2014 by Mormonthink managing editor Tom Phillips and his predictions of the "Mormon Apocalypse"

Summary: Tom Phillips facilitated a court summons for President Thomas S. Monson on behalf of two ex-Mormons, claiming that the Church was coercing its members to pay 10% of their income based upon fraudulent claims. These claims included stating the the Book of Mormon was a translation from ancient gold plates, an ancient historical record and the "most correct book on earth." The claims also require President Monson to prove that he believes that all humanity descended from Adam and Eve in the face of evidence that humans have existed on earth for much longer than 7000 years.

How does the media view MormonThink?

Summary: This article is a collection of media quotes about the website MormonThink.

Efforts by ex-Mormons to "spread the word" about MormonThink

Summary: Ex-mormons have a variety of ways of "spreading the word" to Latter-day Saints about mormonthink.com.

The FAIR Blog responds to these questions

SteveDensleyJr,"A Yankee Lawyer’s Guide to the “Mormon Apocalypse”", FAIR Blog, (February 17, 2014)


A British man named Tom Philips has filed a fraud action in England against President Thomas Monson and is claiming that it will bring on the “Mormon Apocalypse.” However, rather than inciting fear and panic among the faithful, if they know about the case at all, the most common response is one of bewilderment among Mormons and non-Mormons alike. That is due partly to the fact that it seems quite odd that someone would pursue a case for fraud that is based on faith claims and personal opinions. But, at least for Americans, the odd nature by which the claim has arisen procedurally is equally puzzling.


As an American civil defense lawyer, I think I have been as befuddled by this case as anyone. So I’ve consulted British lawyers and legal sources and come up with the following guide to what Phillips has called, the “Mormon Apocalypse.”

Click here to view the complete article


Notes

  1. ↑ Comment by MormonThink's founding editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" on the ex-Mormon message board Recovery from Mormonism, Feb. 21, 2012 at 12:50PM. After FairMormon posted this quote, the original was deleted from the RFM board. The original thread in which it appeared, however, still exists here: Thread Anyone Fantasize About a Showdown with SP or Bishop?, Recovery from Mormonism, posted Feb. 20, 2012.
  2. ↑ Former MormonThink managing editor in a letter to his Stake President prior to his resignation in order to avoid Church discipline. Posted as "MormonThink Founder Resignation" on mormonthink.com
  3. ↑ David Twede, statement during open mike session, Ex-Mormon Foundation Conference, Salt Lake City, October 19, 2012.
  4. ↑ MormonThink's current managing editor, (posting as "anointed one"), on the ex-Mormon Subreddit, August 1, 2013.
  5. ↑ Grant Palmer, John Whitmer Historical Association vol. 34 no. 1 Spring/Summer 2014
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