Revision as of 22:08, 28 September 2013 (view source) RogerNicholson (talk | contribs) (mod) ← Older edit		Revision as of 14:58, 1 March 2014 (view source) RogerNicholson (talk | contribs) (→‎: m) Newer edit →
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	|claim=This blog is interesting. The author did some calculations using the church's vast cattle ranches in Florida to calculate that they own some 0.7% of Florida's land, or 12 times what Disney Corp owns. We haven't verified this but that seems about right. Also, check out his commentary on the free labor they get for their non-taxed businesses in Florida.		|claim=This blog is interesting. The author did some calculations using the church's vast cattle ranches in Florida to calculate that they own some 0.7% of Florida's land, or 12 times what Disney Corp owns. We haven't verified this but that seems about right. Also, check out his commentary on the free labor they get for their non-taxed businesses in Florida.
	|think=		|think=
−	*{{antispeak|circular reasoning}} Presenting data in terms of "We haven't verified this but that seems about right" is irresponsible and imprescise to the point of being meaningless.	+	*{{antispeak|circular reasoning}} Presenting data in terms of "We haven't verified this but that seems about right" is irresponsible and imprecise to the point of being meaningless.
	*Using the term "vast" to describe a cattle ranch is also meaningless.  In order to ranch cattle, the area in question must be vast.  While the author seems to have included the word "vast" as a rhetorical device meant to inflame the situation, the word is implied in the description of any and every cattle ranching operation.  It fails to set the Church apart from other similar operations.		*Using the term "vast" to describe a cattle ranch is also meaningless.  In order to ranch cattle, the area in question must be vast.  While the author seems to have included the word "vast" as a rhetorical device meant to inflame the situation, the word is implied in the description of any and every cattle ranching operation.  It fails to set the Church apart from other similar operations.
	|quote=		|quote=

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Revision as of 14:58, 1 March 2014

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Response to MormonThink page "Tithing"

Lying for the Lord

A FAIR Analysis of: MormonThink A work by author: Anonymous

Joseph Running with the Plates

FAIRMORMON'S VIEW OF THE CRITICS' CONCLUSIONS

The positions that the MormonThink article "Tithing" appears to take are the following:

• That the Catholic definition of offerings is somehow supposed to affect the Mormon definition of tithing.
• That the requirement by the Church for members to pay tithing and offerings is a "guilt trip."
• That unverified rumor about the Church's land holding in Florida constitutes some sort of valid data.
• The the Church should divest itself of any profit-making businesses, and that any profit from those businesses should be given to the poor.
• That the Church is simply a corporation that does not provide sufficient return-on-investment to its members.
• The critics conclude that the Church spends little on humanitarian aid, and that members ought to send their contributions elsewhere.

FAIRMORMON'S RESPONSE AND SUPPORTING DATA

Sub-articles

Source quotes without critical commentary

Summary: If you would like to read all of the source quotes without wading through all of the "Critic's comments," "Apologetic rebuttals" and "Our Thoughts" sections, we present the critical web page as it would appear if only the source quotes were provided without any additional commentary. We also try to provide accurate references and direct links to the original source text rather than simply linking to other websites where you have to search for them.

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Critic's Comment: The above quote is from a Catholic priest who responded to an ex-Mormon asking about tithing. Perhaps the priest is correct. We are not called to tithe. We are asked to make offerings. When the elderly widow gave her last two mites, it was an offering, not a tithe. That would have been 10% of her last two mites. We are not called to tithe, but to make an offering to sustain the church. Plus, if I were to announce that I had given 10% of my income to a homeless shelter, that would not be acceptable to the church, but it is just what the Bible tells us we should do with our tithes. Please check out Deut. 14 for the Old Testament law on tithing. Christians are no longer under that obligation.

FairMormon commentary

• Apparently, this criticism is based on a Catholic view. It may well express the position of another faith but it's difficult to determine how a Catholic position could confound the Latter-day Saint view of tithing. The Catholic Church does not claim any jurisdiction over LDS doctrine and the LDS Church does not appeal to Catholicism for its interpretations of scriptures.
• We are not sure what the attempt to redefine "tithing" as "offerings" is intended to convey.

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Our Comment: It appears that the LDS Church defined tithing differently in the early days of the LDS Church than they do now. Regardless of how it may have been defined in the past, the LDS Church expects its current members to pay 10% of their income to the church, in addition to fast offerings and other donations.

FairMormon commentary

• In the early days of the Church, tithing consisted of 10% of your increase in property. For example, for farmers, this would represent 10% of the food that they produced. They would transport their tithing to the Bishop's storehouse.
• As society has evolved, so has the way tithing is paid.

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Our comment: We are tithe payers (the ones that Hinckley referred to as making the contributions). When can we see the financial information? The LDS Church does not allow its members to see any financial records. Most churches do publish some financial information and budgets so their members can see what their donations are used for and to assess the needs of the organization that they support with their hard-earned money. Why is the one, true church less open and forth-coming about their finances and how the money is spent than the apostate churches? Intuitively we would think that the 'false' churches would likely be more secretive about how much money they have and how it's spent and that God's one, true church would be very open about how they spend their members' donations.

FairMormon commentary

•   The author is pretending to be a believer  —The critics pretend to be believers by using phrases such as "we believe," even though they do not.
  Based on what we've observed at MormonThink, we find it difficult to believe the authors are tithe payers. They may have once been tithe payers when they were believers. To preserve their consistency, MormonThink editors may wish to update their wording to reflect their current status as non-believers or else they may consider changing the rest of the content of the site to reflect the humble, believing attitude most full tithe payers have when it comes to financial disclosure of Church funds.

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Tithing as the Catholic priest said above should be a gift, but the LDS Church makes it an obligation. Fear is often used as a motivator to get people to pay a full tithing. How many times have you heard the term 'fire insurance' associated with tithing? He who is tithed shall not be burned at Christ's' 2nd coming. Malachi 8:10 is often quoted - "Will a man rob God, yet ye have robbed me".

FairMormon commentary

• Again, it's unfair and, frankly, baffling to see the Catholic definition of tithing applied to Latter-day Saints practices.
• Quoting scriptures including Malachi 8 to support the law of tithing is hardly problematic. In fact, it's rather fitting. We don't see it as an indictment of LDS parlance or practice.

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
The guilt placed upon Latter-day Saints can be considerable. We are not considered members in 'good standing' if we're not paying tithing. We cannot attend the temple if we don't pay our tithing. We cannot have temple-related callings or any high-profile positions if we're not full tithe-payers. And if we are full tithe-payers, we're often counseled to then start paying generous fast offerings, contributing to the missionary fund, etc.

FairMormon commentary

• That is because Latter-day Saints consider all they they have been blessed with to belong to the Lord anyway, and giving back ten percent of that plus offerings as a small price to pay.
• It seems odd that a person would be eager to attend the temple if he or she was not willing to sacrifice and consecrate 10% of his or her income to the Church. Sacrifice and consecration are among the commitments made in the temple. Attending the temple and making such commitments without actually living up to them by keeping the law of tithing can only lead to inner conflict and pain.

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
This blog is interesting. The author did some calculations using the church's vast cattle ranches in Florida to calculate that they own some 0.7% of Florida's land, or 12 times what Disney Corp owns. We haven't verified this but that seems about right. Also, check out his commentary on the free labor they get for their non-taxed businesses in Florida.

FairMormon commentary

•   The author is applying circular reasoning  —The premise used by the critic depends upon validity of the conclusion.
  Presenting data in terms of "We haven't verified this but that seems about right" is irresponsible and imprecise to the point of being meaningless.
• Using the term "vast" to describe a cattle ranch is also meaningless. In order to ranch cattle, the area in question must be vast. While the author seems to have included the word "vast" as a rhetorical device meant to inflame the situation, the word is implied in the description of any and every cattle ranching operation. It fails to set the Church apart from other similar operations.

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
President Hinckley, in a public interview, admitted that the church is very wealthy. However, he then went on to say that the assets owned by the church are not income producing but are instead income draining. This is very deceptive. The church owns many businesses that generate profits. The $6 Billion or so is profit that the church takes in from contributions by its members and its businesses every year. The church has very little expense in relation to its income. The money it receives is almost all tax-free. The property is exempt from taxes. The church owns virtually all of its properties so it doesn't have to pay rent. The utilities on those buildings and the meager funds allotted to the wards for their discretionary budget funds are just a drop in the bucket compared to its income.

FairMormon commentary

•   The author is namecalling: liars   —Critics often assume or claim that LDS leaders or members are lying or dishonest. They do not consider or grant that even if they are in error, they might have made an error innocently or unintentionally. Any error (real or perceived) is evidence of lying.
  
• The critics are mixing up profits from Church-owned tax paying businesses with Church contributions. The Church owns businesses, and these businesses pay taxes just like any other business.

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Imagine if you had a corporation where the business model was to have your customers give you 10% of their income every year, and all you primarily had to provide in return were the buildings to meet in, a few social programs and some speeches made periodically by the owners. Just how phenomenally profitable would that corporation be?

FairMormon commentary

•   The author is asserting that the Church is simply a corporation  —Critics like to portray the Church as a for-profit business.
  The Church is not a business. Church members are not customers. Members do not donate tithing expecting to make a return on an investment. This criticism demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of sacrifice and consecration. In the earliest scriptures, offerings made to the Lord were simply burnt. Yet we don't infer from this that Adam was a lousy investor who was cheating his family out of their livestock and providing nothing for them in return. The same principle of sacrifice that schooled and uplifted Adam and his family applies to offerings made to the Lord in contemporary times. We pay our tithing for our spiritual benefit more than for any other gift we could hope to receive by paying it.

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
The church hardly spends any of its money on humanitarian aid. It appears that less than 1% of its revenues goes to really help the poor and needy. And those funds are usually donated as a high-profile contribution....However, in more recent times, the church has loosened its purse strings in some areas that it is often criticized for. The LDS Church did make some sizeable contributions to Haiti after their devastating earthquake. Most of the contributions came in the form of material goods.

FairMormon commentary

•   The author is making mutually exclusive claims:  —When critics need an attack against the Church, any excuse will do, even if they are mutually self-contradictory: if one argument is true, the other cannot be.
  Critics often complain that the Church's financial records are closed. However, the same critics often go on to draw conclusions, complete with figures like the ones given above, about where, how, and why the Church spends monies. If the Church's financial records are unavailble, how can critics' claims that "the church hardly spends any of its money on humanitarian aid" and that "it appears that less than 1% of its revenues goes to really help the poor and needy" be based on real data? The information needed to make credible claims about humitarian aid is simply not at the critics' disposal.
• We suspect that this line of criticims is rooted in opportunism. Perhaps such critics are not so much champions of the poor and needy as they are detractors of the Church.

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Critic's Comment: As demonstrated by the Tsunami, the church doesn't always spend the money where the members are told it's going. The church refuses to publish how it spends its money so no one knows for sure what all it spends it's vast wealth on except for some of the things that gets published or leaked out. But it's clear that the church has far more than it needs and some of the things it spends its money on like The Mall or the Hunting Preserves are probably things Jesus would not spend money on if he was physically running the church.

FairMormon commentary

•   The author is "speaking for Jesus"  —The critic, despite not believing in God, presumes to "speak for Jesus".
  

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Christ taught that one should sell all that one has and give it to the poor. While that's not practical, why couldn't the church sell its non-ecclesiastical assets and help the poor? Does the church really have need of anything other than chapels, temples, MTCs, family history centers, and visitor centers?

FairMormon commentary

• Church-owned businesses are businesses. They are not part of the Church. They deal with their own financial issues, including profit and loss.

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
The church sometimes acts like it's poor and needs money. Around the year 2000, the Church laid off the meetinghouse custodians and other church workers, some of whom had worked in the Church Office Building. The church custodian, although not a high-paying job, was a nice job for at least one person in buildings which house 2-3 wards on average. It was often a nice way for the church to help out someone that really needed a job. Now they expect members (as if they didn't spend enough time in church service) to clean their own buildings on their days off.

FairMormon commentary

• Cleaning church buildings is a freewill offering of time and energy. It is not used as a standard of worthiness. No one is questioned at temple recommend or other stewardship interviews about his or her participation in church cleaning schedules. Cleaning is usually carried out as a family service project meant to build unity within wards and families, and to teach young people respect and gratitude for the bricks and mortar that have been provided for their use and enjoyment. Building cleaning is done in the spirit of goodwill and that goodwill should not be belittled and reviled.

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
We would recommend that the church give more money to the poor and needy (both inside and outside of the church) without expecting anything in return from the members. Also build enough meetinghouses so the members can use the buildings during reasonably desirable times. The church should raise the ward budgets so the members can actually use more of the money that they donated on a local level. The church should employ custodians again and give those jobs to people in the ward that really need them. The church should continue the good work it does with employment offices and expand them as they are able. The humanitarian funds, missionary funds, etc. should all be covered by the tithing receipts which are more than enough to completely cover them many times over. The church should keep enough funds invested to keep it sound, but billions and billions invested in businesses, when it could be helping others, is probably not really the way Jesus would have intended his church to be run, in our opinion.

FairMormon commentary

•   The author is "speaking for Jesus"  —The critic, despite not believing in God, presumes to "speak for Jesus".
  
• There is one chapel built every 24 hours, according to the Church.
• We do not presume to dictate to Church leadership how they should allocate money and resources that we freely give.

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
In Oct. 2006 General Conference, Pres. Hinckley told Latter-day Saints, "The church is undertaking a huge development project in the interest of protecting the environment of Temple Square. While the costs will be great, it will not involve the expenditure of tithing funds." That is a very deceptive statement. Although technically the funds may come from the profits of the church-owned businesses or merely from the interest on its enormous investment capital, where did the money come from to buy the businesses, stocks and other investments to generate those profits? Everything the church owns ultimately came from money donated to the church by its members - past and present.

FairMormon commentary

•   The author is namecalling: liars   —Critics often assume or claim that LDS leaders or members are lying or dishonest. They do not consider or grant that even if they are in error, they might have made an error innocently or unintentionally. Any error (real or perceived) is evidence of lying.
  It is a cop-out to simply go back in time until you can equate everything that the Church has to a tithing or offering donation. This does not make President Hinckley a liar.
• How many of you reading this have ancestors that owned slaves? Does that mean that you must consider slavery acceptable?
• How many of you have ancestors who were polygamists? Does that mean that you actually must accept polygamy?
• How many of you have ancestors that paid tithing to the Church? Does that mean that you paid that money?

Additional information

• City Creek Center Mall in Salt Lake City—Members and critics have questions about the Church's involvement in the redevelopment of the city center in Salt Lake. (Link)

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Critic's comment: Of all the things Jesus would tell Gordon Hinckley, He told the Prophet to buy a mall? For ten years, the only new light and knowledge given to the world by Jesus through His Prophet are the doctrines of "no penny poker," "no multiple earrings," and "no gay rights." And now we are expected to believe that Jesus' latest revelation is the need for His church to get in the shopping mall business?

FairMormon commentary

•   The author is "speaking for Jesus"  —The critic, despite not believing in God, presumes to "speak for Jesus".
  
•   Trivialization  —Critics take a complex idea and attempt to trivialize it down to a few simple sound bites in order to prove their position.
  These items are certainly not the "only new light and knowledge given to the world." They are a trivial strawman subset of things that the prophets have said.

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
It's disgraceful to read the propaganda the Church puts out about tithing. Read the article 'Tithing Shoes' based on a true story from the Church's magazine Friend, Nov 2007: LDS.org The story recounts a destitute mother with a child that did not have any shoes to wear. She had just enough money to buy some shoes for her son. Instead, she feels too guilty if she spends that money on her son instead of giving it to the church as tithing, so she gives it to the church. Of course a 'miracle' happens and the bishop gives her son some shoes he happened to have.

FairMormon commentary

•   The author is using sarcastic reasoning  —The critic makes sarcastic claims that are intended to generate an emotional reaction.
  "Of course a 'miracle' happens..." To those of us who actually believe in God and miracles, this is an inspirational story. For those that do not believe in God and miracles, they are left only with sarcastic comments about "miracles".

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Our comment: This absolute devotion of choosing to pay a religious entity that is worth some $100 Billion over feeding her children or paying the mortgage is nothing to be admired. It is tantamount to child abuse in our opinion.

FairMormon commentary

•   The author is using mocking language and hyperbole to try to make his or her point  —The critic intentionally exaggerates claims in order to mock believers.
  This claim is absurd. The Church has an extensive welfare program that takes care of members, and extensive resources to assist in disasters across the world which are not limited to members.
• The critic neglects to mention that the Church will not let this woman or her children go hungry. There is no mention of the Bishop's storehouse, which is specifically for this purpose.
• Nor do the critics mention that the bishop can and often will help pay the mortgage. Any Church finance clerk has written mortgage checks more than once.
• Nobody that pays tithing is subsequently abandoned by the Church to starve. That is what fast offerings are specifically used for.

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
LDS leaders often hint at promises that tithe payers will receive increased income from paying tithes, yet Utah remains one of the poorest states in the US and ranks among the highest in personal bankruptcies. Utah has led the nation for the last few years in bankruptcy filings. Not only was Utah #1 in 2005, but it also had a record number of (bankruptcy) filings....Our Comment: We wonder how much the bankruptcies would decrease in Utah if the members paid their legal obligations first and then gave donations to the church as they could afford them.

FairMormon commentary

• The Church does not teach that tithe payers will receive increased income from paying tithes. The Church teaches that members who pay their tithing will be blessed as a result. The form of that blessing can vary, but there is no guarantee that it will be in the form of increased income.

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Many former Mormons continue to pay their tithing, but now do so to more traditional charities - where they know how the money will be spent.

FairMormon commentary

• The word "tithing" means "ten percent." We seriously challenge any ex-Mormon to demonstrate that they are now paying 10% of their income to traditional charities. The standard ex-Mormon position is that you should stop wasting your money by paying tithing, so that you will have more money.

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
LDS tithes are not used for charity, but are used to build the kingdom. Sure the LDS Church does some good with their money, like helping out with the earthquake in Haiti, but they could really do so much more with their enormous financial empire that's been built from the generous donations of its members over the last century.

FairMormon commentary

•   Trivialization  —Critics take a complex idea and attempt to trivialize it down to a few simple sound bites in order to prove their position.
  "Sure the LDS Church does some good with their money..."
•   The author is asserting that the Church is simply a corporation  —Critics like to portray the Church as a for-profit business.
  The critics now portray the Church as an "enormous financial empire."
• The critic takes this position based upon assumptions and little data.

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
The modern LDS Church in the 21st century simply no longer needs additional tithing dollars. If you feel you need to still pay tithing, then pay your tithing to reputable charities that distribute their money to the poor and needy or look for cures to diseases and the like. God knows you paid money to these organizations - even without a tithing settlement.

FairMormon commentary

•   The author is "speaking for God"  —The critic, despite not believing in God, presumes to know what God ought to require.
  This is claim seems to expose the authors as people who cannot be truly "active" members of the Church.

On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Advice for those that wish to be a member but not pay a full tithing. Some members wish to remain in the Church but not pay a full tithing but don't want the embarrassment of having the bishop and some others in church know that they no longer pay tithing. Here's one suggestion. The Church has a program set up so members can pay electronically to the church headquarters. This was set up as some wealthy people do not want the bishop to know how much money they make. If pressed by the local bishop, the LDS headquarters will only send an acknowledgement to the local ward that some funds were paid in the year. They do not say how much money you paid to the church. You can donate $5 if you want and declare to the bishop that you were a part-time tithe payer at tithing settlement time and leave it at that. You could say you were a full tithe payer if you want to also, but we don't advocate lying.

FairMormon commentary

•   Deception is OK. Lying is not.  —The critic advocates deception in order to make someone believe something that is not true, however, they reiterate that they do not advocate lying.
  So, to summarize: MormonThink recommends misleading your Bishop during tithing settlement so that he believes that you are paying some tithing, but they do not advocate lying.
• The program does not work the way MormonThink describes it. The program for direct donations is called "Donations-in-Kind." It is primarily used to transfer assets that cannot be transferred at the ward level. For example, if one wishes to pay tithing using a donation of stock, the ward is not equipped to handle this. The member contacts the "Donations-in-Kind" office in Salt Lake and obtains the number of the Church's brokerage account. The member then initiates a brokerage-to-brokerage transfer, and sends the Church a letter specifying how the donation is to be allocated (percentage to tithing, fast offering, etc.). The Church then sends a tax receipt back to the member, and a copy to the bishop, specifying that a donation was made, the type of stock donated and the number of shares. If the bishop were so inclined, he could deduce the value of the donation by looking up the stock price and multiplying by the number of shares on the receipt, however, no bishop would ever bother to do this.
• The "Donations-in-Kind" department was not set up so that "wealthy people" can avoid telling the bishop "how much money they make."