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Difference between revisions of "Detailed response to CES Letter, Conclusion"
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*The author, after noting that he was troubled by Elder Nelson's talk in the Ensign which mentioned Joseph's use of a stone in a hat, said that "FAIR confirms polyandry and the rock in the hat translation. Both of these issues usually cause severe cog dis in members. They did with me." In other words, he thinks that FAIR ''should deny that these things happened.'' One should not reasonably expect FAIR to deny things that are printed in the ''Ensign,'' such as Elder Nelson's talk which mentions the stone in the hat. How, then, did FAIR do "more to destroy" his testimony than any anti-Mormon source ever could? (This actually reflects a popular and common meme among online ex-Mormons that tries to cast FAIR as an "anti-Mormon" site. The promotion of this idea is well represented in "A Letter to a CES Editor.") | *The author, after noting that he was troubled by Elder Nelson's talk in the Ensign which mentioned Joseph's use of a stone in a hat, said that "FAIR confirms polyandry and the rock in the hat translation. Both of these issues usually cause severe cog dis in members. They did with me." In other words, he thinks that FAIR ''should deny that these things happened.'' One should not reasonably expect FAIR to deny things that are printed in the ''Ensign,'' such as Elder Nelson's talk which mentions the stone in the hat. How, then, did FAIR do "more to destroy" his testimony than any anti-Mormon source ever could? (This actually reflects a popular and common meme among online ex-Mormons that tries to cast FAIR as an "anti-Mormon" site. The promotion of this idea is well represented in "A Letter to a CES Editor.") | ||
*It is clear from his statements online (shown below) that he went to MormonThink and online discussion boards first. It is also evident that the author is only familiar selected quotes from a variety of primary sources (including lds.org) that are included on critical websites. | *It is clear from his statements online (shown below) that he went to MormonThink and online discussion boards first. It is also evident that the author is only familiar selected quotes from a variety of primary sources (including lds.org) that are included on critical websites. | ||
| − | + | {{parabreak}} | |
| + | *The author of "A Letter to a CES Director" said on '''October 2, 2012''' | ||
<blockquote> | <blockquote> | ||
Brigham Young said "The only men who become Gods, even the sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy" (Journal of Discourses 11:269). <span style="color:blue">Last I checked, Journal of Discourses is not anti-mormon.</span> | Brigham Young said "The only men who become Gods, even the sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy" (Journal of Discourses 11:269). <span style="color:blue">Last I checked, Journal of Discourses is not anti-mormon.</span> | ||
</blockquote> | </blockquote> | ||
| − | + | *The author of "A Letter to a CES Director" said on '''October 9, 2012''' in his "Open Letter" to Elder Quentin L. Cook {{ref|cookletter1}}: | |
<blockquote> | <blockquote> | ||
....Respected LDS Historian and <span style="color:blue">"Rough Stone Rolling"</span> author Richard Bushman totally lied and deceived me....Elder Russell M. Nelson also endorsed this stone in hat method of translation of the Book of Mormon in his <span style="color:blue">July 1993 Ensign "A Treasured Testament" talk</span>. You might want to have a quick chat with him to get his talk corrected. Like, pronto....LDS-owned <span style="color:blue">FamilySearch.org</span> listing Joseph's teen brides....he, according to <span style="color:blue">FAIR, FARMS, FamilySearch.org and LDS historians</span>, really did practice polygamy....that lie is in the <span style="color:blue">Journal of Discourses</span>...might want to delete it pronto.... | ....Respected LDS Historian and <span style="color:blue">"Rough Stone Rolling"</span> author Richard Bushman totally lied and deceived me....Elder Russell M. Nelson also endorsed this stone in hat method of translation of the Book of Mormon in his <span style="color:blue">July 1993 Ensign "A Treasured Testament" talk</span>. You might want to have a quick chat with him to get his talk corrected. Like, pronto....LDS-owned <span style="color:blue">FamilySearch.org</span> listing Joseph's teen brides....he, according to <span style="color:blue">FAIR, FARMS, FamilySearch.org and LDS historians</span>, really did practice polygamy....that lie is in the <span style="color:blue">Journal of Discourses</span>...might want to delete it pronto.... | ||
</blockquote> | </blockquote> | ||
| − | + | *The author of "A Letter to a CES Director" said on '''October 11, 2012''' | |
<blockquote> | <blockquote> | ||
Because the "Ouija Board" that he used to con people in his treasure hunting days is the same "Ouija Board" that he used to bring forth the Book of Mormon. | Because the "Ouija Board" that he used to con people in his treasure hunting days is the same "Ouija Board" that he used to bring forth the Book of Mormon. | ||
Additionally, the church's spin on how the BOM came to be vs. how it actually happened are universes apart. | Additionally, the church's spin on how the BOM came to be vs. how it actually happened are universes apart. | ||
</blockquote> | </blockquote> | ||
| − | + | *The author of "A Letter to a CES Director" said on '''November 11, 2012''' | |
<blockquote> | <blockquote> | ||
A person has to do their own convincing. Your dad is doing the research and is asking questions. Let it take its course. <span style="color:blue">Hopefully you pointed him to the right resources (MormonThink.com, etc.</span>) | A person has to do their own convincing. Your dad is doing the research and is asking questions. Let it take its course. <span style="color:blue">Hopefully you pointed him to the right resources (MormonThink.com, etc.</span>) | ||
</blockquote> | </blockquote> | ||
| − | + | *The author of "A Letter to a CES Director" said on '''November 15, 2012''' | |
<blockquote> | <blockquote> | ||
I'm BIC, RM, Temple Married who <span style="color:blue">left the church a few months ago (haven't resigned yet)</span>....I have a TBM wife who still takes kids to church. I want to know the most effective way to save them from Mormonism so they won't have to go through what I went through. | I'm BIC, RM, Temple Married who <span style="color:blue">left the church a few months ago (haven't resigned yet)</span>....I have a TBM wife who still takes kids to church. I want to know the most effective way to save them from Mormonism so they won't have to go through what I went through. | ||
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Yeah, <span style="color:blue">reading "The Mormon Murders" and other stuff about the Mark Hoffman disaster did really did some damage</span> on how I look at Hinckley and the modern church. Specifically, the buying and hiding the embarrassing forgeries along with the lack of discernment. | Yeah, <span style="color:blue">reading "The Mormon Murders" and other stuff about the Mark Hoffman disaster did really did some damage</span> on how I look at Hinckley and the modern church. Specifically, the buying and hiding the embarrassing forgeries along with the lack of discernment. | ||
</blockquote> | </blockquote> | ||
| − | + | *The author of "A Letter to a CES Director" said on '''February 22, 2013''' | |
<blockquote> | <blockquote> | ||
http://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/07/a-treasured-testament?lang=eng <span style="color:blue">He [Elder Russell M. Nelson] quotes David Whitmer's testimony of rock in the hat translation method.</span> | http://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/07/a-treasured-testament?lang=eng <span style="color:blue">He [Elder Russell M. Nelson] quotes David Whitmer's testimony of rock in the hat translation method.</span> | ||
</blockquote> | </blockquote> | ||
| − | + | *The author of "A Letter to a CES Director" said on '''March 26, 2013''' | |
<blockquote> | <blockquote> | ||
Need Feedback! My TBM grandpa asked me to <span style="color:blue">speak to his CES Director friend,</span> about my concerns. CES guy offered to talk to me. This PDF is a rough draft of what I'm sending over to both CES guy and grandpa. Need your feedback/advice, guys. Thanks! | Need Feedback! My TBM grandpa asked me to <span style="color:blue">speak to his CES Director friend,</span> about my concerns. CES guy offered to talk to me. This PDF is a rough draft of what I'm sending over to both CES guy and grandpa. Need your feedback/advice, guys. Thanks! | ||
</blockquote> | </blockquote> | ||
| − | + | *The author of "A Letter to a CES Director" said on '''April 12, 2013''' | |
<blockquote> | <blockquote> | ||
<span style="color:blue">Final draft of letter is done!</span> Let me know what you guys think before I send. | <span style="color:blue">Final draft of letter is done!</span> Let me know what you guys think before I send. | ||
</blockquote> | </blockquote> | ||
| − | + | *The author of "A Letter to a CES Director" said on '''April 30, 2013''' | |
<blockquote> | <blockquote> | ||
<span style="color:blue">FAIR confirms polyandry and the rock in the hat translation.</span> Both of these issues usually cause severe cog dis in members. They did with me. I mean, once the rock in the hat story was confirmed, the whole thing collapsed because the rock in the hat ruins the official story of ancient prophets creating gold plates for Joseph and the testimony of the witnesses of the gold plates (since Joseph never used the plates anyway). | <span style="color:blue">FAIR confirms polyandry and the rock in the hat translation.</span> Both of these issues usually cause severe cog dis in members. They did with me. I mean, once the rock in the hat story was confirmed, the whole thing collapsed because the rock in the hat ruins the official story of ancient prophets creating gold plates for Joseph and the testimony of the witnesses of the gold plates (since Joseph never used the plates anyway). | ||
Revision as of 09:26, 22 July 2013
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| [[../Other Concerns & Questions|Other Concerns & Questions]] | A FAIR Analysis of:
[[../|Letter to a CES Director]] |
A FAIR Analysis of the online document Letter to a CES Director section "Conclusion"
FAIR and these unofficial apologists have done more to destroy my testimony than any anti-Mormon source ever could.
—"A Letter to a CES Director," April 2013
FAIR confirms polyandry and the rock in the hat translation. Both of these issues usually cause severe cog dis in members. They did with me. I mean, once the rock in the hat story was confirmed, the whole thing collapsed because the rock in the hat ruins the official story of ancient prophets creating gold plates for Joseph and the testimony of the witnesses of the gold plates (since Joseph never used the plates anyway).
—The author of "A Letter to a CES Director" said on April 30, 2013
- "Among the first sources I looked to for answers were official Church sources such as Mormon.org and LDS.org. I couldn’t find them."
- "FAIR and these unofficial apologists have done more to destroy my testimony than any anti-Mormon source ever could"
Response Section
"Among the first sources I looked to for answers were official Church sources such as Mormon.org and LDS.org. I couldn’t find them."
"FAIR and these unofficial apologists have done more to destroy my testimony than any anti-Mormon source ever could"
== Notes ==
- [note] The full text of the author's "Open Letter" to Elder Quentin L. Cook posted on the ex-Mormon subreddit on October 9, 2012:
An online friend originally wrote an open letter to Cook. I borrowed his and revised. Here it is:
An Open Letter to Elder Quentin L. Cook, member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Dear Elder Cook,
I am one of those formerly spiritually lost and "apostate" souls whose testimony was destroyed by falsehoods I found on the evil internetz. But on Saturday night, following your advice at General Conference, I repented of my disillusionment, and it totally worked.
Now that I've repented, I cannot believe the ludicrous lies I used to believe about Joseph Smith and the foundational doctrines of the church. I no longer believe those outrageous lies; not even one little bit.
A few examples of the lies I've discarded through my repentance last night after your General Conference talk on Saturday morning: I no longer believe the lie that Joseph Smith sold his services looking for buried treasure with a peep stone that he used to look in his hat with. I've also discarded the lie that this "Ouija Board" Joseph used was the same method he used to translate the Book of Mormon. Respected LDS Historian and "Rough Stone Rolling" author Richard Bushman totally lied and deceived me.
Elder Russell M. Nelson also endorsed this stone in hat method of translation of the Book of Mormon in his July 1993 Ensign "A Treasured Testament" talk.</span> You might want to have a quick chat with him to get his talk corrected. Like, pronto.
I no longer believe the lie that Joseph Smith gave several multiple conflicting accounts of the First Vision. Joseph Smith's own journals have obviously been tampered with.
I no longer believe the lie that all DNA research to date shows the indigenous Americans are of Asian rather than Hebrew descent. The scientists are obviously all lying just to thwart the Mormons.
I no longer believe the lie that the only surviving Egyptian papyrus that Joseph used for the Book of Abraham - which has the Facsimiles on it - does not match Joseph Smith's translation. Both LDS and non-LDS Egyptologists, including those at FARMS, are just testimony destroyers and deceivers. I no longer believe the lie that Joseph Smith married 14-year-old girls. LDS-owned FamilySearch.org listing Joseph's teen brides on his index totally needs to be corrected immediately.
I no longer believe the lie that Joseph Smith married women already married to other living men at the same time. Respected LDS historian and scholar Richard Bushman lied about that. Time to remove his book "Rough Stone Rolling" from Deseret Book and the LDS Church History Museum store in Salt Lake. It's totally obvious to me now that the book is anti-Mormon.
I no longer believe the lie that Joseph Smith denied practicing polygamy when he, according to FAIR, FARMS, FamilySearch.org and LDS historians, really did practice polygamy. It's time to get rid of Volume 6 of the History of the Church that contains Joseph's denial of polygamy.
I no longer believe the lie that Brigham Young taught that Adam was the only God and Father that the Latter-day Saints should be concerned with. By the way, that lie is in the Journal of Discourses...might want to delete it pronto.
You get the picture. I used to believe a lot of vicious lies, all of which are found in LDS or LDS-friendly sources I read about on the evil internetz. I guess these LDS and LDS-friendly sources are anti-Mormon too.
But thanks to your talk, I repented. And now I know the truth: official LDS and LDS-friendly sources on the evil internetz tell lots and lots of lies about Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, the First Vision, the Book of Mormon and everything else you can think of about the Lord's church.
Thanks for encouraging me to repent of my disillusionment and bringing me back to the fold.
We should ban Rough Stone Rolling, edit Joseph's journals, delete part of the History of the Church, delete part of the Journal of Discourses, revise FamilySearch.org, correct Elder Nelson's 1993 talk and distance ourselves from FARMS publications. We must remove and stop these absurd and outrageous lies that led me astray in the first place.
Your brother in combating online falsehood,
Kolobot