Difference between revisions of "Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Overview"

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FAIR's evaluation of the web site MormonThink

Overview

The web site MormonThink.com claims to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in objectively presenting the "truth" about Mormonism. In general, the conclusions reached by the site reflect negatively on the Church.

• FAIR has received several queries to "Ask the Apologist" from Church members who specifically identify the website MormonThink as having assisted their relatives out of the Church. The quote from "Truthseeker" (MormonThink site administrator, who states that he is an active member of the Church) is from an e-mail that was sent in response to FAIR's inquiry about one such claim. According to "Truthseeker," he remains anonymous in order to avoid excommunication or Church discipline.
• The site contains repeated accusations that the Church and its leaders are dishonest. The site operators state they "would rather have a somewhat smaller church full of knowledgeable, loyal, full-believing members than a large church full of inactive, semi-believing members."
• The site is a popular reference for many anti-Mormon sites because it claims to be balanced due to its inclusion of links to a few faith-promoting sites such as FAIR. In fact, answers to questions sent to FAIR's "Ask the Apologist" have been included on the site and used to "support" some of the site's negative conclusions by omitting context and relevant information.
• The site appears to be attempting to provoke a response from the "official" Church sources, with anything published by FAIR being constantly characterized as "unofficial," "unauthorized," and even "activist."

Sources used

MormonThink considers Wikipedia to be a "neutral source" on LDS topics. It is not. FAIR analyzes selected LDS-related Wikipedia articles in: Mormonism and Wikipedia.

The MormonThink web site also heavily promotes and incorporates concepts from Grant Palmer's critical work An Insider's View of Mormon Origins. FAIR has analyzed this work and provides an index of claims and corresponding responses, and an examination of the author's use of source material.

For a detailed response, see: A FAIR Analysis of: An Insider's View of Mormon Origins

The site authors respond to FAIR...they don't like the term "anti-Mormon"

Here is another example of FAIR using the ‘standard LDS tactic’ of spitefully labeling those with whom it disagrees instead of dealing with the issue on its merits. It labels MormonThink as ‘anti-Mormon’ in an attempt to paint MT as untrustworthy and dishonest in the eyes of Latter-day Saints. “Anti-Mormon” is a spiteful label designed to stop critical thinking and obstruct a healthy exchange of ideas.
MormonThink's response to FAIR

FAIR's opinion

• FAIR considers a web site or a published work to be "anti-Mormon" if its goal is to demote one's faith in the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, particularly when it is run or produced by "active members" of the Church.
• FAIR's responses to "Ask the Apologist" queries and data from the FAIR Wiki are placed in a context in which they are misrepresented to support the site's negative conclusions. FAIR does not endorse the use of its own material to bolster the negative conclusions drawn by the MormonThink site, or the way in which the site addresses issues of LDS belief, history, and scripture.
• It is encouraging that a few small changes were made when LDS members pointed out various problems. However, though this seems to enhance the site's veneer of balance, the conclusions and insinuation about the Church, its leaders, and its members remain the same—always negative. MormonThink considers FAIR's response "the kind of snarky reply that drives honest investigators (members and others) away from the church," and that a "spiteful attitude toward honest investigation is unfair." However, the conclusion drawn over and over again on the site is that the Church and its leaders are dishonest and that the truth claims of the church are false.
• It is ironic that a site which frequently criticizes the Church for a lack of "honesty" or "transparency" claims to be a source operated by faithful and active members who are not forthright about their own identities. Their response is that "[i]nvestigators at MormonThink (MT) do not want to be excommunicated or disciplined by the church for exercising their right to investigate Mormon history, question official versions, think critically, and point out obvious contradictions with a request for clarification."

See also: The term "Anti-Mormon"

Why does FAIR not link to the MormonThink website?

The owners of MormonThink have repeatedly asked why FAIR does not link to their web site:

The answer is quite simple. The FAIR Wiki has a policy of not linking to anti-Mormon web sites. The goal of MormonThink, which is further reinforced by a reading of their response to FAIR's review, is to demonstrate that the truth claims of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are false. It does not matter that the site operators claim to be active members of the Church—the site claims that Joseph Smith was dishonest, that the General Authorities are dishonest, and that the Church is not what it claims to be. This qualifies the site as "anti-Mormon" in our opinion. FAIR's mission, in contrast, is to reinforce the faith of LDS Church members. We do not, and will not, encourage members to visit web sites which attempt to destroy their faith.

What quality of "thinking" is recommended?

The site does not seem to be merely an attempt to "steady the ark" by redirecting the Church according to the vision of its authors, but in some ways it may represent an attempt to actually lead members out of the Church. The site's overall attitude toward religion is best summarized by their link to a routine by the late comedian George Carlin called "Religion is BS". MormonThink comments:

Comedian George Carlin has a 10 minute bit on why all religion is phony. Although comedic (and irreverent), it does make you think.

Thus it seems, in connection with the MormonThink link, that the validity of truth claims of not only the Church, but of any religion, ought to be reevaluated in light of a 10-minute shtick performed by a comedian in which "he also makes some valid observations." This is like recommending that one renegotiate his or her faith after viewing Bill Maher's Religulous. This appears to represent the level of "thinking" that MormonThink wishes readers to engage in.

The webmaster of MormonThink in his own words

The webmaster of MormonThink posts in several online ex-Mormon message boards under the names "SpongeBob SquareGarments," "mormonthink," and "LDS Truthseeker". The best explanation of his website and its purpose is offered in his own words.

From the admin of MormonThink

As the guy who gets most of the email directed to the MormonThink website, I can say that 19 out of 20 people that read through the website say it changed their minds and they no longer believe in the church and usually write to thank those that helped make the site. But 1 out of 20 is someone that has read most of it, or has read a lot of it, and still believes. I have had ongoing conversations with these people and they continue to believe (at least for now). I think if people really want to believe that something is true, they will find a way to do it - like the apologists who know as much as any of us do. However, my experience is that if you can actually get someone to look at all the facts via a few websites or books, that the majority will stop believing in the church and that 100% of those that viewed everything will at least have a diminished view of the church they thought they knew.

—Posted by SpongeBob SquareGarments on thread "Ever Get a TBM to Read a Book or Website Exposing the Truth About Mormonism?", Recovery from Mormonism, April 20, 2012.

So that is one of the reasons I remain in the church. It gives me greater credibility when I speak about my own religion instead of it being my former religion. We all know as soon as I leave it, I am labeled as someone who left because of morality, tithing or some other issue rather than the historical problems of the church. One reason that Grant Palmer's book has been so successful is that he is a current member^[2] (although now disfellowshipped) and not vilified like the Tanners. By subtly mentioning things in meetings I may raise some doubts or by carrying around a copy of ‘An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins’ or Sunstone or Dialogue, I am sometimes asked about them and can gently guide someone to further enlightenment about church history. So you can consider myself one who tries to share the historical problems of the Church from within instead of from outside the Church. It's tough sometimes but I don't take any crap from anyone. I no longer pay tithing or wear garments and blow off callings I don't want but I remain a member because I choose to be one....The hardest challenge for me is to keep some level of integrity. I never lie at church (i.e. give a false testimony) but I play the game to keep membership but don't want to be given callings I don't want. I don't mind going to church (but not all the time) but don't like to be hounded to go to the temple and such. ALSO, it is very hard for me not to stand up and tell the teacher that the manual is wrong or call out some member (a friend) for saying something in error. It is hard to sit though many of the meetings when I know [so] much more truth than any of them do. And I can't just stand up and tell them.....No tithing but I give a fair share to other worthy charities. I'm not a big drinker but I do drink now and then if I want to.....I must admit I am cautious about that. Not so much for me but for my wife so I don't normally drink in public. yeah, I feel like a kid hiding beer at home from my ne[i]ghbors but it's the price I pay.

—Comment posted by "active Mormon" MormonThink webmaster on thread "'I am the webmaster of MormonThink.com AMA'," ex-Mormon reddit, Jan. 2012

OUR OPPORTUNITY GUYS AND GALS: Make sure you call in with a good question or 2 so it will give Grant [Palmer] a reason to bring up something damaging - B[ook] O[f] A[braham], Kinderhook Plates, polyandry, etc.

—Posted by: "SpongeBob SquareGarments" on Recovery from Mormonism on May 18 during a call-in show featuring Grant Palmer.

New managing editor in September 2012—David Twede

In September 2012, a new managing editor of MormonThink.com was chosen (David Twede). Twede announced that he would be returning to Church attendance, so that MormonThink could continue to claim that it was operated by "active" members of the Church. This was discussed on the anti-Mormon "Recovery from Mormonism" message board:

Posted by: mormonthinker [David Twede]

Date: September 06, 2012 08:42AM

Returning to church

As the new managing editor at M[ormon] T[hink], and to encourage developing MormonThink with credibility and with pertinent information & experiences, I have decided I will renew my attendance at my assigned ward in Central Florida. I don't know if this is long term or not, but I am a member of record without blemish on my membership except inactivity in recent years.

Can any of you offer advice on how to handle a return? I do not even know if my suit still fits...

I will try to write a weekly blog about my experiences attending from my new found perspective, and will post them where I believe members can benefit.

Last edit at 09/06/2012 08:49AM by mormonthinker.

He goes on to explain:

Posted by: mormonthinker [David Twede]

Date: September 07, 2012 10:28AM

Thanks all.

Cheryl, the audience for this venture are curious and troubled T[rue] B[eliever] M[ormon]s. At M[ormon]T[think] we try very hard to be balanced and fair, but completely honest about the history, science and other facts.

Going to church, as current managing editor (other editors are not returning, are resigned or completely out) is for me to both build perspective (as footdoc pointed out, I am an artistic type, but also work in science) and to increase MT credibility--that an attending mormon is actually one of the essential staff at M[ormon] T[hink]. Most contributors to M[ormon] T[hink] that are active are not for very long once all the information is viewed objectively.

I do not plan to be temple worthy at this time.

I will write a blog about my weekly experience, as more of a human experience piece from the perspective of a returning, very doubtful member.^[3]

It is telling that MormonThink.com claims to value "honesty," while being edited by someone who is only returning to Church so he can portray themselves as 'active', even though he is doing so simply for propaganda purposes: "to increase M[ormon] T[hink]credibility."

Testimonials from those who no longer believe in the Church because of MormonThink

He has no business acting surprised that he's being punished for it. He's being hypocritical. Mormonthink is an anti-mormon website. I love the site. We all love the site. We love it because it shows the church is false. But managing mormonthink is the absolute opposite of building up elohim's kingdom. And he's certainly not living the law of consecration as he promised to do....They can use their hocus pocus magic words to take away his membership in an organization that he is undermining on a daily basis. A thing he was doing in secret, by the way. If he was really just trying to give LDS a history lesson he wouldn't have been afraid to share his name. He was purposefully hiding his identity because he knew the consequences of what he was doing. It's not that deep.
jesuscrisco, posted on Recovery from Mormonism, September 26, 2012.

I can think of a lot of problems with the Church, and can name plenty of reasons not to join. Even so, I can actually understand why they would want to excommunicate David [Twede]. I don't dispute the content on Mormonthink, it is in fact the very reasons why I no longer affiliate with the Mormon Church.
Anonymous, posted on MormonThink blog, September 24, 2012.

MormonThink.com was a key tool in me realizing many difficult truths about the religion I grew up in, and subsequently leaving it behind.
ASL, posted on MormonThink blog, September 24, 2012.

I went from believing to non believing literally within minutes, while reading about the [Book of Abraham] on 'MormonThink'. It was on a Sunday evening. That Sunday was the last time I went to church. My family resigned a month after that.
Ex-Mormon Mia, posted on Recovery from Mormonism, April 20, 2012.

Every single person, mormon, or not, that asks me why I left, get sent to [MormonThink]. How many have gone there I don't know. If someone REALLY wants to know why I left, they have to read MormonThink. My husband, two adult children and myself all left the church last year. MormonThink was our main go to source for information.
secondvision, posted to ex-Mormon subreddit, March 2012.

After reading up at 'mormonthink.com' this week, I realized the church wasn't true. I realized that I wouldn't have to obey anymore stupid rules. I was free to think for myself and have no obligations toward the leaders of the church. No longer will the choices I make cause me to feel like I'm a bad person. This whole week I've been the happiest I can remember!!
LeConnor, posted on ex-Mormon subreddit, 2012.

Somewhere there was a link to 'mormonthink.com' and that's when everything came apart for me really fast. I read almost the entire site over the next three days (in secret with private browsing on)... It was the first time I had ever even considered that the Church might not be true, and all the concerns and doubts I had over the years made so much more sense if none of it was true to begin with. I knew right then that there was no going back, I no longer believed it, and I had to get out of it just to be honest to myself.
_OhByTheWay_, posted on ex-Mormon subreddit, 2011.

Hey guys, The missionaries are coming over today to see me and my roommates. Thanks to the beautiful website mormonthink.com, I'm sure I have enough knowledge to bring up some very difficult questions.I thought I'd drop by to see what your favorite questions to ask the missionaries are. Ideally, I'd like the questions to start a chain reaction effect leading them to questioning their religion. It's unlikely but worth a shot!
HelloHiHello, posted on ex-Mormon subreddit, 2011.

I suppose that when our exmo numbers reached a certain critical mass, it'd be possible to pull off some interesting campaigns. Aren't there something like 5,000 ward buildings in North America? With a stencil and a can of white spray paint, the URL for MormonThink could be placed on the black asphalt roadway leading to the church parking lot.. If that action was coordinated to happen on the same day across the country, hmmm...
Chino_Blanco, posted on ex-Mormon reddit, 2011.

The big thing I don't understand is how the members who run the site can still be members. If I'd known half of all that stuff sooner I would have gotten out before I did. Why don't they?
rosemary, posted on Recovery from Mormonism, April 20, 2012.

I think that it is a crucial site for [True Believing Mormons] to discover the truth. The fact that 'Mormonthink.com' is run by members removes any suspicion of "anti-mormon" material. I LOVE THE SITE.
Angelina5, posted on Recovery from Mormonism, April 20, 2012.

I personally am still a member and I think I stay in mainly just to s[t]ay on top of the latest happenings in Moism and it gives me fodder to add to the website seeing the latest craziness the church is spewing out. We also have friends there and don't want to lose them but we don't let the church push us around and we take it on our own terms - no tithing, garmies or other things we disagree with.
SpongeBob SquareGarments, responding to this praise on Recovery from Mormonism, April 20, 2012.

Mormonthink was pivotal in showing me the truth as it was with so many others. I had actually been inactive for over a year but still would have NEVER read the site had it not been run by currently active LDS people...Without thinking that MT was a "safe" place to read, I would not have gone there.
phoebe64, posted on Recovery from Mormonism, September 20, 2012.

I agree that it is very helpful to "the cause" for [MormonThink] to seem like a safe place to be. I'm pretty sure I never could've gotten my husband to read it and proceed out if it hadn't at least seemed fairly balanced. A lot of people who want to change the Church think there is more power from working from within. I can see that point.
dogeatdog, posted on Recovery from Mormonism, September 20, 2012.

If [David Twede] is done for apostasy, the site will be off limits . While the editors are in good standing, members can visit the site in good faith and not feel like they are threatening their temple recommend.
spanner, posted on Recovery from Mormonism, September 20, 2012.

Other testimonials

John Dehlin

Can you show me a more honest representation of the church and its history online -- anywhere? I can't think of a more honest one...warts and all. Can you? Certainly not FAIR or FARMS. Certainly not LDS.org.

My challenge remains: find me a web site that is more honest/objective/accurate/comprehensive on factual Mormon history than Mormon Think. I'm all eyes/ears.

Both (all) sites are biased -- I think that the FAIR site is 50x more biased than Mormon Think. Just my opinion.

My experience is that the FAIR/FARMS spin ultimately causes much more harm than good. It's just rarely credible to thoughtful, objective people who are trying to uncover the "truth." Consequently, it can be really discouraging when folks go to FAIR/FARMS and are sorely disappointed. They so often come away saying, "Really? That's the best the apologists can do?" You guys have a really hard job. I honestly admire it on some level. But you are at your weakest when you attack others...as Christians. So weak. (ellipses in original)

Part of what I'm trying to say is that while perfect objectivity is impossible, there are shades of objectivity...and then there is the decision to not be objective at all. I'd argue that you/FAIR/FARMS fall closer to the "not even trying to be objective" scale....and something like MormonThink is at least trying to some degree...even though there is a bias. (ellipses in original)

John Dehlin, posts on Dehlin’s Facebook wall, 3-4 January 2012, off-site

Endnotes

1. [note]  Stephen E. Robinson, "Review of The Word of God: Essays on Mormon Scripture by Dan Vogel," FARMS Review of Books 3/1 (1991): 312–318. off-site
2. [note] It should be noted that Grant Palmer has since resigned his Church membership.
3. [note]  Mormonthinker [David Twede], "Returning to Church," post at Recovery from Mormonism message board (6 Sept 2012, 8:42 AM and 10:28 AM). http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,627991,627991#msg-627991)