FAIR is a non-profit organization dedicated to providing well-documented answers to criticisms of the doctrine, practice, and history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
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Revision as of 23:19, 3 June 2012
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| A FAIR Analysis of: MormonThink A work by author: Anonymous
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A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Prophets after Joseph Smith"
FAIRMORMON'S VIEW OF THE CRITICS' CONCLUSIONS
The positions that the MormonThink article "Prophets after Joseph Smith" appears to take are the following:
FAIRMORMON'S RESPONSE AND SUPPORTING DATA
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
No prophet since Joseph Smith has really prophesied, acted as a seer or provided any real revelation except undoing what Joseph Smith had done such as ending polygamy or allowing black men to have the priesthood. If we as Latter-day Saints believe that Joseph Smith restored the gospel and was indeed the first prophet of the restoration, then why hasn't any prophet since then exhibited the same prophetic gifts that Joseph appeared to have?
FairMormon commentary
- The author is pretending to be a believer —The critics pretend to be believers by using phrases such as "we believe," even though they do not.
The critics portray themselves as active Latter-day Saints—they are not. They do not believe that Joseph Smith restored the gospel and that he was the first prophet of the restoration, but they are trying to get you to identify with them by claiming that they do. - Prophets have many roles, only one of which is to prophesy future events. Most modern LDS prophets have been forthtellers rather than foretellers. The key issue is the possession of divine authority, in that they give whatever message(s) God wishes communicated to His children.
Additional information
- Latter-day prophets don't prophesy—Some critics say that Latter-day Saint prophets aren't really "prophets" because they don't prophesy by foretelling unknown events. They commonly issue challenges such as, "If Gordon B. Hinckley is a prophet, tell me one event that he's prophesied." Do LDS prophets "prophesy"? (Link)
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Why haven't the prophets that followed Joseph performed any prophetic duties as seer for the church?
FairMormon commentary
- Because the Lord has not required them to do so.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
There are numerous documents that could be translated by modern prophets and provide value to Latter-day Saints, just as the other additional scriptures brought forth by Joseph have. A few immediately come to mind: The Dead Sea Scrolls...Anthon Manuscript...
FairMormon commentary
- Scholars have been translating the Dead Sea Scrolls for years, why would modern prophets need to do this? The only point that the critics are trying to make here is that modern prophets don't translate ancient documents.
- What would be the point of attempting to translate the Anthon characters? (there is no "Anthon Manuscript") The only point tthat the critics are trying to make here is that modern prophets don't translate ancient documents.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
The Kinderhook Plates: For many years LDS scholars debated whether or not the Kinderhook Plates reportedly translated by Joseph were actually real ancient plates or not? The pictures of the plates with the detailed writings were published in the Church-owned Times and Seasons newspaper when Joseph lived, as well as being published in the book History of the Church by Joseph Smith. Any prophet with the seer ability from Brigham Young to our current prophet could have used the pictures of the plates and translated the writings to verify what Joseph said about them as well as to finish the translation.
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
The Book of Abraham: The Egyptian papyri found in the Metropolitan Museum of New York in 1966, including facsimile 1 of the Book of Abraham, were given to the church in 1967. Many people have asked why the translation of the papyri by modern-day Egyptologists do not match what Joseph said they mean. Why does our prophet not use his ordained seer ability to translate these documents in the same way Joseph did and see what they mean and why? This way the prophets could answer with surety the many troubling questions by members such as BOA translation problems. Many people have understandably left the church over the BOA. Would this not be a good use of the prophet's seer ability by helping keep members from leaving the church?
FairMormon commentary
- This makes no sense:
- We already have the text of the Book of Abraham. We do not need to have a prophet re-dictate it.
- We already have the translation of the Egyptian characters contained on the Joseph Smith papyri by both LDS and non-LDS Egyptologists. Why do we need a prophet to "translate these documents," since we already know that the extant Joseph Smith papyri does not contain the text of the Book of Abraham? The Church made note of this in the Church magazine The Era back in 1968.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Why doesn't the prophet translate the Book of Joseph portion?
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
If the purpose of a prophet is to give answers to people for the dilemmas in which they find themselves, then why doesn't the prophet inquire of the Lord and give the members clear answers as to the many dilemmas that currently face thousands of Latter-day Saints such as: 1. Why doesn't Joseph's translation of the Book of Abraham papyri and facsimiles agree with what Egyptologists say they mean? 2. Why were blacks denied the priesthood until 1978? 3. Why did Joseph marry 11 men's wives while they were still married to their husbands? 4. Why did Joseph give a translation of the fake Kinderhook Plates? 5. Why does DNA analysis show that the Native American Indians came from Asia and not Israel as the Book of Mormon teaches?
etc., etc., etc.
FairMormon commentary
- The purpose of a prophet is not to "give answers to people for the dilemmas in which they find themselves." The purpose of prophets is to provide direction and guidance.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Most members believe that anything published in The Ensign is considered scripture although some believe that just what is in the 'First Presidency Message' of The Ensign should be considered scripture.
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Often LDS apologists pick and choose what they consider to be doctrine. If it's a touchy subject such as racist comments made by past prophets, prophecies that didn't come true or teachings from prophets such as the 'Adam-God' sermons of Brigham Young, LDS apologists say that was merely a man's opinion and not really God speaking through his appointed mouthpiece.
If that's the case then how do you know if a prophet is speaking doctrine or merely giving his opinion? If the apologists are right then why bother reading The Ensign or why take General Conference seriously if it's just the opinions of individual men?
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Many of the disconcerting comments made by the prophets have come from the Church publication called The Journal of Discourses. It's often quoted in Church and even by LDS apologists. How much credence should we give to the JofD?
From journalofdiscourses.com:
The Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as one of the standard works of the Church,
FairMormon commentary
- The definition of "standard work" during the 19th-century included many publications that are not part of our present-day standard works.
Quotes to consider
- Note how many items are considered "standard works" in 1855:
<quote>
Broadside by Parley P. Pratt, Millennial Star 17. 20 (May 16, 1855) announcing the “Mormon Book Depot, and General Agency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the Pacific Coast. PARLEY P. PRATT respectfully announces to the public, that he has established an Office and Book Depot in San Francisco, Cal., near the corner of Dupont and Sacramento Streets, where will be constantly on hand and for sale the Standard Works of said Church, among the most noted of which are the following, viz.--Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Voice of Warning, O. Pratt’s Works, Key to the Science of Theology, Pearl of Great Price, Spencer’s Letters, Hymn Books, And a variety of Periodicals, Debates, Defences, Tracts, &c., &c. San Francisco, March 2, 1855.” It also indicates that he is in correspondence with LDS in foreign countries, and can provide works in French, German, Danish, Spanish, Italian, Welsh. (319). (emphasis added)
</quote>
Additional information
- Is the Journal of Discourses doctrinal? Is it one of the "standard works" of the Church?—Critics often use the Journal of Discourses to show both nonmembers and LDS what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints supposedly "really believes" to be official doctrine on subjects that have been considered to be either controversial or touchy by members of the Church. A popular example often used in the anti-Mormon community is the Adam-God theory. Critics insist that LDS once regarded the Journal of Discourses as a "standard work" or similar to scripture. (Link)
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Some LDS apologists try to wiggle out with "it's not doctrine", but even they admit it's a long-running series of public transcriptions of sermons by the highest Mormon leaders. If even that's not doctrine, then everything they make you sit through on Sundays must be utterly meaningless.
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Joseph Smith said "Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil."
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
The Greek Psalter Incident
Professor Henry Caswell, gave Joseph Smith a Greek Psalter to examine and asked him what it was. Joseph of course would know this as he reportedly translated the Book of Mormon from Reformed Egyptian and he translated the Book of Abraham from Egyptian papyri.
Joseph replied that it was a Dictionary of Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics. Professor Caswell of course knew Joseph was wrong as this was a known Greek Psalter and definitely not Egyptian.
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Brigham Young
Adam is God Quotes
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
FairMormon commentary