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FAIR is a non-profit organization dedicated to providing well-documented answers to criticisms of the doctrine, practice, and history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
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* Church artists are not, sadly, always experts in the historical evidence of that which they are attempting to illustrate. | * Church artists are not, sadly, always experts in the historical evidence of that which they are attempting to illustrate. | ||
* Religious art has a long tradition of using "unhistorical" images to teach a broader point—but, this is not something that works so well nowadays, since we expect photos (and therefore pictures) to be "accurate." | * Religious art has a long tradition of using "unhistorical" images to teach a broader point—but, this is not something that works so well nowadays, since we expect photos (and therefore pictures) to be "accurate." | ||
− | * Part of the problem is that there are multiple stages of Book of Mormon translation—while Joseph and Oliver likely never worked this way, Joseph may have done so alone earlier. | + | * Part of the problem is that there are [[Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Method|multiple stages of Book of Mormon translation method]]—while Joseph and Oliver likely never worked this way, Joseph may have done so alone earlier. |
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* If "the church never talks about this stone in modern times," then how does MormonThink explain references like these? | * If "the church never talks about this stone in modern times," then how does MormonThink explain references like these? | ||
* How is it the Church's fault that MormonThink doesn't know about these examples? | * How is it the Church's fault that MormonThink doesn't know about these examples? | ||
+ | {{SeeAlso|Mormonism_and_history/Censorship_and_revision/Hiding_the_facts#The_stone_and_the_hat|l1=Hiding history? Official curriculum mentions of the 'stone in the hat'}} | ||
|quote= | |quote= | ||
Note the mention of the stone in the official children's magazine, ''The Friend'' (available online at lds.org): | Note the mention of the stone in the official children's magazine, ''The Friend'' (available online at lds.org): | ||
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|think= | |think= | ||
+ | * Well, since MormonThink believes that the Church never mentions the seer stone, but it does—even in the children's ''Friend''--is it really true that this is ''never'' talked about? It's right there in the scripture, as they admit. | ||
+ | * If people aren't talking about it, how is that the Church's fault—aren't we told to read, study, and teach from the scriptures? | ||
+ | * More importantly, the "white stone" mentioned here involves things which are held private and sacred: it ties into '''LDS temple practice''', which FAIR and other believing members will not discuss in a public forum. So, part of the reason this is not discussed in more detail is because it involves temple doctrines. Those who attend the temple can reflect upon these passages and realize that they play a large role in LDS temple worship. | ||
+ | * Joseph seemed to regard his own seer stone as a "stepping-stone" to greater knowledge and revelatory experience. This is exactly what D&C 130 says the "white stone" given to the exalted will do: "things pertaining to ''a higher order of kingdoms'' will be made known." | ||
+ | * LDS doctrine teaches that we will continue to learn and progress after this life, until we receive "all that the Father hath." A urim and thummim will, according to Joseph, play a role in that process. But, one would also expect that it too will become unnecessary when we, like Joseph, master the spiritual discipline and principles which the urim and thummim aids in developing. | ||
+ | * MormonThink seems to have proven that Joseph's ideas on this point are astonishingly self-consistent. Not bad for a total fraud. | ||
+ | |quote= | ||
+ | "LDS defenders" say this because it's what Joseph Smith said about it. Unlike MormonThink, we try to follow all the historical evidence. Orson Pratt, who watched the New Testament revision (JST) and wondered why the use of seer stones/interpreters (as with the Book of Mormon) was not continued reported: | ||
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+ | :While this thought passed through the speaker's mind, Joseph, as if he read his thoughts, looked up and explained that the Lord gave him the Urim and Thummim when he was inexperienced in the Spirit of inspiration. But now he had advanced so far that he understood the operations of that Spirit and did not need the assistance of that instrument.{{pratt.1}} | ||
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#{{note|gamble1}} Richard L. Bushman, "Joseph Smith Miscellany," (Mesa, Arizona: FAIR, 2005 FAIR Conference){{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2005_A_Joseph_Smith_Miscellany.html}} | #{{note|gamble1}} Richard L. Bushman, "Joseph Smith Miscellany," (Mesa, Arizona: FAIR, 2005 FAIR Conference){{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2005_A_Joseph_Smith_Miscellany.html}} | ||
#{{note|mcgee1}} "Wonderful Discovery," ''Wayne Sentinel'' [Palmyra, New York] (27 December 1825), page 2, col. 4. Reprinted from the ''Orleans Advocate'' of Orleans, New York; cited by {{Ashurst-McGee-Thesis|start=170|end=171}} | #{{note|mcgee1}} "Wonderful Discovery," ''Wayne Sentinel'' [Palmyra, New York] (27 December 1825), page 2, col. 4. Reprinted from the ''Orleans Advocate'' of Orleans, New York; cited by {{Ashurst-McGee-Thesis|start=170|end=171}} | ||
+ | #{{note|pratt1}} {{MatureJS}} ; citing Orson Pratt, "Discourse at Brigham City," 27 June 1874, Ogden (Utah) Junction, cited in {{MS|author=Orson Pratt|article=Two Days´ Meeting at Brigham City|vol=36|date=11 August 1874|start=498|end=499}} |
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We don't know why Peter G. Bridgman brought the charges, but it could easily have been because he was worried that his uncle was accepting Joseph Smith in his religious claims. Josiah did join the church organized by Joseph Smith and stayed faithful his whole life. As for Peter Bridgman, "Within a month after the trial he was licensed as an exhorter by the Methodists and within three years had helped establish the West Bainbridge Methodist Church. Upon his death in 1872 his fellow ministers characterized him as 'an ardent Methodist and any attack upon either the doctrines or the polity of the Methodist Episcopal Church, within his field of labor, was sure to be repelled by him with a vigorous hand."[1]
Is it possible that the trial of Joseph Smith was just one of his first attempts to apply a "vigorous hand?"
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In the young Joseph Smith's time and place, "money digging" was a popular, and sometimes respected activity. When Joseph was 16, the Palmyra Herald printed such remarks as:
And, in 1825 the Wayne Sentinel in Palmyra reported that buried treasure had been found "by the help of a mineral stone, (which becomes transparent when placed in a hat and the light excluded by the face of him who looks into it)."[3]
Given the financial difficulties under which the Smith family labored, it would hardly be surprising that they might hope for such a reversal in their fortunes! Richard Bushman has compared the Smith's attitude toward treasure digging with a modern attitudes toward gambling, or buying a lottery ticket. Bushman points out that looking for treasure had little stigma attached to it among all classes in the 17th century, and continued to be respectable among the lower classes into the 18th and 19th.[4]
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Note the mention of the stone in the official children's magazine, The Friend (available online at lds.org):
"To help him with the translation, Joseph found with the gold plates “a curious instrument which the ancients called Urim and Thummim, which consisted of two transparent stones set in a rim of a bow fastened to a breastplate.” Joseph also used an egg-shaped, brown rock for translating called a seer stone."
—“A Peaceful Heart,” Friend, Sep 1974, 7 off-site
Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Twelve Apostles described the process clearly in an Ensign article:
It would be strange to try to hide something by having an apostle talk about it, and then send the account to every LDS home in the official magazine. Other examples:
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"LDS defenders" say this because it's what Joseph Smith said about it. Unlike MormonThink, we try to follow all the historical evidence. Orson Pratt, who watched the New Testament revision (JST) and wondered why the use of seer stones/interpreters (as with the Book of Mormon) was not continued reported:
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== Notes ==
FAIR is a non-profit organization dedicated to providing well-documented answers to criticisms of the doctrine, practice, and history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
We are a volunteer organization. We invite you to give back.
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