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Difference between revisions of "Criticism of Mormonism/Books/One Nation Under Gods/Chapter 1"
m (→Claims made in "Chapter 1: Vagabond Visionaries") |
(→Claims made in "Chapter 1: Vagabond Visionaries": Reformulated claims) |
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====6==== | ====6==== | ||
− | ||" | + | ||Did "most" of Joseph Smith's contemporaries consider him "a charlatan from a family of illiterate wanderers; a shiftless trouble-maker—albeit a charismatic and imaginative one—with a penchant for superstitions, storytelling, and decision-making based on the occult traditions of nineteenth century rural folk magic?" |
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*[[Early_Smith_family_history/Lazy_Smiths|Lazy Joseph Smith?]] | *[[Early_Smith_family_history/Lazy_Smiths|Lazy Joseph Smith?]] | ||
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====9-11==== | ====9-11==== | ||
− | || | + | ||Did the Smith family eventually give up on any sort of "legitimate" employment to become lazy money-diggers? |
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* The "lazy" claims are belied by records from the period. | * The "lazy" claims are belied by records from the period. | ||
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====15==== | ====15==== | ||
− | || | + | ||Do local newspapers show that no revival occurred in 1820 in the area of Palmyra-Manchester, New York? |
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*[[Religious revivals in 1820]] | *[[Religious revivals in 1820]] | ||
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====15==== | ====15==== | ||
− | || | + | ||Did Joseph incorporate a documented 1824 revival into his First Vision story? |
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*[[Conflation of 1824-25 revival?]] | *[[Conflation of 1824-25 revival?]] | ||
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====15==== | ====15==== | ||
− | ||Joseph's 1832 First Vision account | + | ||Why does Joseph's 1832 First Vision account state that he was 15 rather than 14 years old? |
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*[[Different age provided in the 1832 text]] | *[[Different age provided in the 1832 text]] | ||
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====15==== | ====15==== | ||
− | ||Joseph's 1832 account | + | ||Why does Joseph's 1832 account state that he only saw Jesus without mentioning God the Father? |
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*[[Only one Personage appears in the 1832 account]] | *[[Only one Personage appears in the 1832 account]] | ||
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====15==== | ====15==== | ||
− | || | + | ||Was the main message of the 1832 account was the forgiveness of Joseph's sins? |
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*[[Motivation in 1832 account is different]] | *[[Motivation in 1832 account is different]] | ||
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====15==== | ====15==== | ||
− | || | + | ||Why does the 1832 account omits information about "God condemning Christian churches as corrupt?" |
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*[[1832 account doesn't forbid joining a church]] | *[[1832 account doesn't forbid joining a church]] | ||
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====16==== | ====16==== | ||
− | || | + | ||Did LDS leaders only begin teaching that Joseph saw both Jesus and God the Father in the 1870s-80s? |
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*{{FalseStatement}} There are at least 39 published sources mentioning the First Vision which include the phrase "This is my Beloved Son" spanning 1843 to 1863—many of these prior to 1870. | *{{FalseStatement}} There are at least 39 published sources mentioning the First Vision which include the phrase "This is my Beloved Son" spanning 1843 to 1863—many of these prior to 1870. | ||
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====16-17==== | ====16-17==== | ||
− | ||Orson Pratt | + | ||Why did Orson Pratt say that the two personages that appeared to Joseph were angels? |
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*[[Orson Pratt confused about "angel" or Father-Son]] | *[[Orson Pratt confused about "angel" or Father-Son]] | ||
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====17==== | ====17==== | ||
− | ||Church historian Andrew Jenson | + | ||Why did Church historian Andrew Jenson say that "The angel again forbade Joseph to join any of these churches?" |
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*[[Andrew Jenson called personage an "angel"]] | *[[Andrew Jenson called personage an "angel"]] | ||
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====18==== | ====18==== | ||
− | || | + | ||Why does John Taylor only call the Father and Son "two glorious personages" in 1850 without mentioning the phrase "this is my beloved son?" |
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*[[John Taylor's understanding of the First Vision]] | *[[John Taylor's understanding of the First Vision]] | ||
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====18==== | ====18==== | ||
− | || | + | ||Did the 1824 revival cause Joseph's mother, sister and two brothers to join the Presbyterian church? |
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*[[Conflation of 1824-25 revival?]] | *[[Conflation of 1824-25 revival?]] | ||
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====18==== | ====18==== | ||
− | || | + | ||Did the 1824 revival actually cause Joseph to join a Baptist church? Wasn't this contrary to his instructions in the First Vision? |
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*[[Joseph Smith joined other churches]] | *[[Joseph Smith joined other churches]] | ||
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====18==== | ====18==== | ||
− | || | + | ||Why did no publications from the Palmyra or Manchester areas in the 1830s mention Joseph's vision? |
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*[[No reference to First Vision in 1830s publications?]] | *[[No reference to First Vision in 1830s publications?]] | ||
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====22, 490 n.78 (HB)==== | ====22, 490 n.78 (HB)==== | ||
− | || | + | ||Was the vision of Moroni the ''only'' vision that was discussed for many years? After all, didn't Lucy Mack Smith say that the first vision was that of a "holy Angel?" |
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*[[Prophet's mother said First Vision was of an "angel"]] | *[[Prophet's mother said First Vision was of an "angel"]] |
Revision as of 20:49, 13 January 2009
Claims made in "Introduction: A Thread of Prophecy" | A FAIR Analysis of: Criticism of Mormonism/Books A work by author: Richard Abanes
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Claims made in "Chapter 2: Moroni, Magic, and Masonry" |
Claims made in "Chapter 1: Vagabond Visionaries"
Page | Claim | Response | Author's sources |
---|---|---|---|
6 |
Did "most" of Joseph Smith's contemporaries consider him "a charlatan from a family of illiterate wanderers; a shiftless trouble-maker—albeit a charismatic and imaginative one—with a penchant for superstitions, storytelling, and decision-making based on the occult traditions of nineteenth century rural folk magic?" |
| |
9-11 |
Did the Smith family eventually give up on any sort of "legitimate" employment to become lazy money-diggers? |
|
|
15 |
Do local newspapers show that no revival occurred in 1820 in the area of Palmyra-Manchester, New York? |
| |
15 |
Did Joseph incorporate a documented 1824 revival into his First Vision story? |
| |
15 |
Why does Joseph's 1832 First Vision account state that he was 15 rather than 14 years old? |
| |
15 |
Why does Joseph's 1832 account state that he only saw Jesus without mentioning God the Father? |
| |
15 |
Was the main message of the 1832 account was the forgiveness of Joseph's sins? |
| |
15 |
Why does the 1832 account omits information about "God condemning Christian churches as corrupt?" |
| |
16 |
Did LDS leaders only begin teaching that Joseph saw both Jesus and God the Father in the 1870s-80s? |
|
|
16-17 |
Why did Orson Pratt say that the two personages that appeared to Joseph were angels? |
| |
17 |
Why did Church historian Andrew Jenson say that "The angel again forbade Joseph to join any of these churches?" |
| |
18 |
Why does John Taylor only call the Father and Son "two glorious personages" in 1850 without mentioning the phrase "this is my beloved son?" |
| |
18 |
Did the 1824 revival cause Joseph's mother, sister and two brothers to join the Presbyterian church? |
| |
18 |
Did the 1824 revival actually cause Joseph to join a Baptist church? Wasn't this contrary to his instructions in the First Vision? |
| |
18 |
Why did no publications from the Palmyra or Manchester areas in the 1830s mention Joseph's vision? |
| |
22, 490 n.78 (HB) |
Was the vision of Moroni the only vision that was discussed for many years? After all, didn't Lucy Mack Smith say that the first vision was that of a "holy Angel?" |
|
Further reading
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{{To learn more box:responses to: 8: The Mormon Proposition}} | To learn more box:responses to: 8: The Mormon Proposition | edit |
{{To learn more box:''Under the Banner of Heaven''}} | To learn more about responses to: Under the Banner of Heaven | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Robert Price}} | To learn more about responses to: Robert Price | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Ankerberg and Weldon}} | To learn more about responses to: Ankerberg and Weldon | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Ashamed of Joseph}} | To learn more about responses to: Ashamed of Joseph | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Beckwith and Moser}} | To learn more about responses to: Beckwith and Moser | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Beckwith and Parrish}} | To learn more about responses to: Beckwith and Parrish | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Benjamin Park}} | To learn more about responses to: Benjamin Park | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Bible versus Joseph Smith}} | To learn more about responses to: Bible versus Joseph Smith | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Bible versus Book of Mormon}} | To learn more about responses to: Bible versus Book of Mormon | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: ''Big Love''}} | To learn more about responses to: Big Love | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Brett Metcalfe}} | To learn more about responses to: Brett Metcalfe | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Bill Maher}} | To learn more about responses to: Bill Maher | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Bruce H. Porter}} | To learn more about responses to: Bruce H. Porter | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Carol Wang Shutter}} | To learn more about responses to: Carol Wang Shutter | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: CES Letter}} | To learn more about responses to: CES Letter | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Charles Larson}} | To learn more about responses to: Charles Larson | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Christopher Nemelka}} | To learn more about responses to: Christopher Nemelka | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Colby Townshed}} | To learn more about responses to: Colby Townshed | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Contender Ministries}} | To learn more about responses to: Contender Ministries | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Crane and Crane}} | To learn more about responses to: Crane and Crane | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: D. Michael Quinn}} | To learn more about responses to: D. Michael Quinn | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Dan Vogel}} | To learn more about responses to: Dan Vogel | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: David John Buerger}} | To learn more about responses to: David John Buerger | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: David Persuitte}} | To learn more about responses to: David Persuitte | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Denver Snuffer}} | To learn more about responses to: Denver Snuffer | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Dick Bauer}} | To learn more about responses to: Dick Bauer | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Duwayne R Anderson}} | To learn more about responses to: Duwayne R Anderson | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Earl Wunderli}} | To learn more about responses to: Earl Wunderli | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Ed Decker}} | To learn more about responses to: Ed Decker | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Erikson and Giesler}} | To learn more about responses to: Erikson and Giesler | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Ernest Taves}} | To learn more about responses to: Ernest Taves | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Fawn Brodie}} | To learn more about responses to: Fawn Brodie | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: George D Smith}} | To learn more about responses to: George D Smith | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Grant Palmer}} | To learn more about responses to: Grant Palmer | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Hank Hanegraaff}} | To learn more about responses to: Hank Hanegraaff | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Hurlbut-Howe}} | To learn more about responses to: Hurlbut-Howe | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: James Brooke}} | To learn more about responses to: James Brooke | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: James Spencer}} | To learn more about responses to: James Spencer | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: James White}} | To learn more about responses to: James White | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Jerald and Sandra Tanner}} | To learn more about responses to: Jerald and Sandra Tanner | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Jesus Christ-Joseph Smith or Search for the Truth DVD}} | To learn more about responses to: Jesus Christ-Joseph Smith or Search for the Truth DVD | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: John Dehlin}} | To learn more about responses to: John Dehlin | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Jonathan Neville}} | To learn more about responses to: Jonathan Neville | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Kurt Van Gorden}} | To learn more about responses to: Kurt Van Gorden | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Laura King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery}} | To learn more about responses to: Laura King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Loftes Tryk aka Lofte Payne}} | To learn more about responses to: Loftes Tryk aka Lofte Payne | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Luke WIlson}} | To learn more about responses to: Luke WIlson | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Marquardt and Walters}} | To learn more about responses to: Marquardt and Walters | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Martha Beck}} | To learn more about responses to: Martha Beck | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Mcgregor Ministries}} | To learn more about responses to: Mcgregor Ministries | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: McKeever and Johnson}} | To learn more about responses to: McKeever and Johnson | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: New Approaches}} | To learn more about responses to: New Approaches to the Book of Mormon | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Richard Abanes}} | To learn more about responses to: Richard Abanes | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Richard Van Wagoner}} | To learn more about responses to: Richard Van Wagoner | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Richard and Joan Ostling}} | To learn more about responses to: Richard and Joan Ostling | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Rick Grunger}} | To learn more about responses to: Rick Grunger | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Robert Ritner}} | To learn more about responses to: Robert Ritner | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Rod Meldrum}} | To learn more about responses to: Rod Meldrum | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Roger I Anderson}} | To learn more about responses to: Roger I Anderson | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Ronald V. Huggins}} | To learn more about responses to: Ronald V. Huggins | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Sally Denton}} | To learn more about responses to: Sally Denton | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Simon Southerton}} | To learn more about responses to: Simon Southerton | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Thomas Murphy}} | To learn more about responses to: Thomas Murphy | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Todd Compton}} | To learn more about responses to: Todd Compton | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Vernal Holley}} | To learn more about responses to: Vernal Holley | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Walter Martin}} | To learn more about responses to: Walter Martin | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Wesley Walters}} | To learn more about responses to: Wesley Walters | edit |
{{To learn more box:responses to: Will Bagley}} | To learn more about responses to: Will Bagley | edit |