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− | |L= | + | |L=Criticism of Mormonism/Books/Passing the Heavenly Gift/Saints at Nauvoo were punished for slothfulness |
|H=Response to ''Passing the Heavenly Gift'': Claims that the Saints in Nauvoo were punished because they were slothful in building the temple | |H=Response to ''Passing the Heavenly Gift'': Claims that the Saints in Nauvoo were punished because they were slothful in building the temple | ||
− | |S= | + | |S=Portions of this wiki response are based upon {{GLS-Paper-Snuffer-0}} The text here may have been expanded, reworded, or corrected given the nature of a wiki project. References in brackets like this: (xx) refer to page numbers in {{CriticalWork:Snuffer:Passing_the_Heavenly_Gift}} |
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|T=''Passing the Heavenly Gift'' | |T=''Passing the Heavenly Gift'' | ||
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|>=[[../Conclusion|Conclusion]] | |>=[[../Conclusion|Conclusion]] | ||
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+ | |L=Criticism of Mormonism/Books/Passing the Heavenly Gift/Saints at Nauvoo were punished for slothfulness | ||
+ | |H=Response to ''Passing the Heavenly Gift'': Claims that the Saints in Nauvoo were punished because they were slothful in building the temple | ||
+ | |L1=Were the Saints at Nauvoo were punished for slothfulness in building the temple? | ||
+ | |L2=Response to claim: The spot for the templ was not consecrated by the Lord, or made holy by His or the angels’ presence | ||
+ | |L3=Response to claim: The church was moved out of the spot | ||
+ | |L4=Response to claim: The temple was utterly destroyed | ||
+ | |L5=Response to claim: Suffering during the exodus from Nauvoo | ||
+ | |L6=Response to claim: No Pentecost-type experiences in the Nauvoo temple? | ||
+ | }} | ||
+ | </onlyinclude> | ||
==Were the Saints at Nauvoo were punished for slothfulness in building the temple?<ref name="GLS-source">Portions of this wiki response are based upon {{GLS-Paper-Snuffer-0}} The text here may have been expanded, reworded, or corrected given the nature of a wiki project. References in brackets like this: (xx) refer to page numbers in {{CriticalWork:Snuffer:Passing_the_Heavenly_Gift}}</ref>== | ==Were the Saints at Nauvoo were punished for slothfulness in building the temple?<ref name="GLS-source">Portions of this wiki response are based upon {{GLS-Paper-Snuffer-0}} The text here may have been expanded, reworded, or corrected given the nature of a wiki project. References in brackets like this: (xx) refer to page numbers in {{CriticalWork:Snuffer:Passing_the_Heavenly_Gift}}</ref>== | ||
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We will consider each claim in turn. | We will consider each claim in turn. | ||
− | == | + | ==Response to claim: The spot for the templ was not consecrated by the Lord, or made holy by His or the angels’ presence== |
This claim is false. “Others also beheld angels and the glory of God,” reported one witness at the Nauvoo temple.<ref>See note 240 herein. See also note 236 herein.</ref> The research in ''PTHG'' is not adequate. This issue is treated in more detail below (see [[#No Pentecost-type experiences in the Nauvoo temple?|here]]). Even Strangite apostates saw the glory upon the temple, though they had a more prosaic explanation: | This claim is false. “Others also beheld angels and the glory of God,” reported one witness at the Nauvoo temple.<ref>See note 240 herein. See also note 236 herein.</ref> The research in ''PTHG'' is not adequate. This issue is treated in more detail below (see [[#No Pentecost-type experiences in the Nauvoo temple?|here]]). Even Strangite apostates saw the glory upon the temple, though they had a more prosaic explanation: | ||
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:Uriel C. Nickerson (a Strangite) said that on Sunday night last the Temple was illuminated from the top of the Belfry to the ground and swore that he saw men passing back and forwards having handles in their hands and wanted to make the people believe that there was a visitation by angels, but they were the Mormons themselves. Thus has a Strangite born strong testimony of the glory of last Sabbath.<ref>Thomas Bullock Journal, 17 March 1846; cited in Gregory R. Knight, “Journal of Thomas Bullock,” Brigham Young University Studies 31/1 (Winter 1991): 62–63.</ref> | :Uriel C. Nickerson (a Strangite) said that on Sunday night last the Temple was illuminated from the top of the Belfry to the ground and swore that he saw men passing back and forwards having handles in their hands and wanted to make the people believe that there was a visitation by angels, but they were the Mormons themselves. Thus has a Strangite born strong testimony of the glory of last Sabbath.<ref>Thomas Bullock Journal, 17 March 1846; cited in Gregory R. Knight, “Journal of Thomas Bullock,” Brigham Young University Studies 31/1 (Winter 1991): 62–63.</ref> | ||
− | == | + | ==Response to claim: The church was moved out of the spot== |
Snuffer here plays fast and loose with the text, though earlier he does cite the text that speaks of the Church being “moved out of their place” (380, 381). The scripture in question reads: | Snuffer here plays fast and loose with the text, though earlier he does cite the text that speaks of the Church being “moved out of their place” (380, 381). The scripture in question reads: | ||
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And, finally, though forced from Nauvoo by armed men, the Saints were not “scattered”. They remained together in a body under apostolic direction, withdrew in a planned and orderly way, and a large majority followed the Twelve to the Great Salt Lake. | And, finally, though forced from Nauvoo by armed men, the Saints were not “scattered”. They remained together in a body under apostolic direction, withdrew in a planned and orderly way, and a large majority followed the Twelve to the Great Salt Lake. | ||
− | == | + | ==Response to claim: The temple was utterly destroyed== |
The temple’s destruction is an uncontroversial, if irrelevant, point. There is no promise in D&C 124 that the temple would endure forever, and ''PTHG''’s textual contortions do not find one either (269). (Given that the Jewish temples were both destroyed, if consistent Snuffer would have to argue that they too were never holy spots.) Section 124 does, however, include important teachings on the allowances for the evil actions of others which the Lord will make: | The temple’s destruction is an uncontroversial, if irrelevant, point. There is no promise in D&C 124 that the temple would endure forever, and ''PTHG''’s textual contortions do not find one either (269). (Given that the Jewish temples were both destroyed, if consistent Snuffer would have to argue that they too were never holy spots.) Section 124 does, however, include important teachings on the allowances for the evil actions of others which the Lord will make: | ||
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:I was thankful to see the Temple in Nauvoo on fire. Previous to crossing the Mississippi river, we had met in that Temple and handed it over to the Lord God of Israel; and when I saw the flames, I said "Good, Father, if you want it to be burned up." I hoped to see it burned before I left, but I did not. I was glad when I heard of its being destroyed by fire, and of the walls having fallen in, and said, "Hell, you cannot now occupy it."<ref>Brigham Young, “Funds of the Church,” Journal of Discourses 8:203 (8 October 1860)</ref> | :I was thankful to see the Temple in Nauvoo on fire. Previous to crossing the Mississippi river, we had met in that Temple and handed it over to the Lord God of Israel; and when I saw the flames, I said "Good, Father, if you want it to be burned up." I hoped to see it burned before I left, but I did not. I was glad when I heard of its being destroyed by fire, and of the walls having fallen in, and said, "Hell, you cannot now occupy it."<ref>Brigham Young, “Funds of the Church,” Journal of Discourses 8:203 (8 October 1860)</ref> | ||
− | == | + | ==Response to claim: Suffering during the exodus from Nauvoo== |
In a way, this is the most disturbing of the charges because Snuffer presumes to condemn others, becoming an accuser of his brothers and sisters, declaring (based upon tendentious history and a distorted reading of scriptural texts) that the judgments of God were upon them. If he is wrong, then he condemns a noble group who sacrificed to the uttermost for their covenants. | In a way, this is the most disturbing of the charges because Snuffer presumes to condemn others, becoming an accuser of his brothers and sisters, declaring (based upon tendentious history and a distorted reading of scriptural texts) that the judgments of God were upon them. If he is wrong, then he condemns a noble group who sacrificed to the uttermost for their covenants. | ||
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:Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them. But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves (D&C 121:16–17). | :Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them. But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves (D&C 121:16–17). | ||
− | == | + | ==Response to claim: No Pentecost-type experiences in the Nauvoo temple?== |
Here again, one wonders if Snuffer is simply ignorant of the historical record, or if he is willfully withholding information. Multiple accounts from the Nauvoo temple are extant: | Here again, one wonders if Snuffer is simply ignorant of the historical record, or if he is willfully withholding information. Multiple accounts from the Nauvoo temple are extant: | ||
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* "Sunday, March 22nd, 1846. I went to my Seventies Quorum meeting in the Nauvoo Temple. The whole Quorum being present consisting of fifteen members,...Dressing ourselves in the order of the Priesthood we called upon the Lord, his spirit attended us, and the visions were opened to our view. I was, as it were, lost to myself and beheld the earth reel to and fro and was moved out of its place. Men fell to the earth and their life departed from them, and great was the scene of destruction upon all the face of the land, and at the close thereof, there appeared a great company as it were of saints coming from the west, as I stood with my back passing to the east and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, `Come, see the desolation which the Lord hath made in the earth'; and the company of the saints who had been hid as it were, from the earth; and I beheld other things which were glorious while the power of God rested down upon me. Others also beheld angels and the glory of God ...The sacrament was administered. Our joy increased by the gift of tongues and prophecy by which great things were spoken and made known to us."<ref> Journal Book of Samuel Whitney Richards, 22 March, 1846, Book No.2, 7–8; cited in Heinerman, 50–51.</ref> | * "Sunday, March 22nd, 1846. I went to my Seventies Quorum meeting in the Nauvoo Temple. The whole Quorum being present consisting of fifteen members,...Dressing ourselves in the order of the Priesthood we called upon the Lord, his spirit attended us, and the visions were opened to our view. I was, as it were, lost to myself and beheld the earth reel to and fro and was moved out of its place. Men fell to the earth and their life departed from them, and great was the scene of destruction upon all the face of the land, and at the close thereof, there appeared a great company as it were of saints coming from the west, as I stood with my back passing to the east and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, `Come, see the desolation which the Lord hath made in the earth'; and the company of the saints who had been hid as it were, from the earth; and I beheld other things which were glorious while the power of God rested down upon me. Others also beheld angels and the glory of God ...The sacrament was administered. Our joy increased by the gift of tongues and prophecy by which great things were spoken and made known to us."<ref> Journal Book of Samuel Whitney Richards, 22 March, 1846, Book No.2, 7–8; cited in Heinerman, 50–51.</ref> | ||
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[[Category:Denver Snuffer]] | [[Category:Denver Snuffer]] |
Summary: Portions of this wiki response are based upon Gregory L. Smith, "Passing Up The Heavenly Gift Part 1 Part 2," Interpreter: A Journal of Latter-day Saint Faith and Scholarship7(2103): 181–341. The text here may have been expanded, reworded, or corrected given the nature of a wiki project. References in brackets like this: (xx) refer to page numbers in Denver C. Snuffer, Jr., Passing the Heavenly Gift (Salt Lake City: Mill Creek Press, 2011).
Claims that the Saints did not build the Nauvoo Temple quickly enough | A FAIR Analysis of: 'Passing the Heavenly Gift', a work by author: Denver C. Snuffer
|
Conclusion |
Jump to details:
PTHG claims that D&C 124:47–48 can be used to determine if the Saints failed at Nauvoo. It claims that “[w]e know for certain”:
We will consider each claim in turn.
This claim is false. “Others also beheld angels and the glory of God,” reported one witness at the Nauvoo temple.[2] The research in PTHG is not adequate. This issue is treated in more detail below (see here). Even Strangite apostates saw the glory upon the temple, though they had a more prosaic explanation:
Snuffer here plays fast and loose with the text, though earlier he does cite the text that speaks of the Church being “moved out of their place” (380, 381). The scripture in question reads:
PTHG makes it appear that the Church was promised that because the temple (“that spot”) would be made holy they would not be moved out of a physical “spot” or “place”—i.e., Nauvoo (compare 267–270). This reading is not plausible. The Lord spoke in almost identical wording on 16 December 1833 in the wake of troubles in Missouri. He reassured the Saints: “Zion shall not be moved out of her place, notwithstanding her children are scattered” (D&C 101:17, emphasis added).[4]
Thus, the heirs of Zion could be physically scattered or driven by wicked men, but this did not mean that they were “moved out of [their] place.”[5] This promise served to reassure the Saints that they would not lose their blessings or station before God—and, the condition placed on the commandment is an interesting one, given Snuffer’s hostility to the apostles: “if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people… they shall not be moved out of their place” (D&C 124:45).
And, finally, though forced from Nauvoo by armed men, the Saints were not “scattered”. They remained together in a body under apostolic direction, withdrew in a planned and orderly way, and a large majority followed the Twelve to the Great Salt Lake.
The temple’s destruction is an uncontroversial, if irrelevant, point. There is no promise in D&C 124 that the temple would endure forever, and PTHG’s textual contortions do not find one either (269). (Given that the Jewish temples were both destroyed, if consistent Snuffer would have to argue that they too were never holy spots.) Section 124 does, however, include important teachings on the allowances for the evil actions of others which the Lord will make:
Were Snuffer not so dedicated to his theory, he might see the situation differently, as Brigham Young did:
In a way, this is the most disturbing of the charges because Snuffer presumes to condemn others, becoming an accuser of his brothers and sisters, declaring (based upon tendentious history and a distorted reading of scriptural texts) that the judgments of God were upon them. If he is wrong, then he condemns a noble group who sacrificed to the uttermost for their covenants.
One thinks again of Alma and his band of believers that fled from King Noah—they had to leave their homes to escape an army (Mosiah 18:34–35), settled a new land (Mosiah 23:1–4), suffered enslavement (Mosiah 24:8–12), had to flee again (Mosiah 24:20), reached another area of sanctuary, had to flee yet again (Mosiah 24:23), and ultimately had to return to Zarahemla for safety (Mosiah 24:25). Snuffer could doubtless distort this experience through his sin-seeking lenses—yet we are told explicitly in the scripture that the suffering was permitted despite their obedience: “nevertheless the Lord seeth fit to chasten his people; yea, he trieth their patience and their faith” (Mosiah 23:21).
Snuffer could also doubtless find evidence for evil in the Christian martyrs of Rome, or in Ammonihah when those who believed were stoned, driven out, and had their wives and children burned alive (Alma 14:7–12). Sitting thus to arraign others appeals to some, but it is an easy game. There is enough tragedy in any life to provide fodder for such facile judgmentalism—but the scriptures warn against it:
Here again, one wonders if Snuffer is simply ignorant of the historical record, or if he is willfully withholding information. Multiple accounts from the Nauvoo temple are extant:
Notes
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