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*This was not a prophecy. Heber C. Kimball was, at the time (1857), a counselor in the First Presidency. He was speaking about the attempts by the US Government to replace Brigham Young as governor of the Utah Territory. In fact, that is the main topic of his talk. | *This was not a prophecy. Heber C. Kimball was, at the time (1857), a counselor in the First Presidency. He was speaking about the attempts by the US Government to replace Brigham Young as governor of the Utah Territory. In fact, that is the main topic of his talk. | ||
− | *In discussing this turn of political events, he was not functioning in a prophetic manner. His talk, as recorded in the ''Journal of Discourses,'' was called a "discourse." Several paragraphs before the referenced statement he said that he was "going to talk about these [political] things, and I feel as though I had a perfect right to do so, because I am one of the people."{{ | + | *In discussing this turn of political events, he was not functioning in a prophetic manner. His talk, as recorded in the ''Journal of Discourses,'' was called a "discourse." Several paragraphs before the referenced statement he said that he was "going to talk about these [political] things, and I feel as though I had a perfect right to do so, because I am one of the people."<ref>{{JDwiki|author=Heber C. Kimball|article=Correction, Etc.|date=30 August 1857|vol=5|pages=161}}</ref> A few paragraphs after the referenced statement he said that he was appointed as Lieutenant-Governor of the territory and that "this is a stump speech."<ref>{{JDwiki|author=Heber C. Kimball|article=Correction, Etc.|date=30 August 1857|vol=5|pages=162}}</ref> |
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{{CountercultQuestion | {{CountercultQuestion | ||
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*Also, note a caution on uses of the word on "all" in scripture from Evangelical leader, Charles Spurgeon: | *Also, note a caution on uses of the word on "all" in scripture from Evangelical leader, Charles Spurgeon: | ||
<blockquote> | <blockquote> | ||
− | "The whole world is gone after Him." Did all the world go after Christ? "Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children," and "the whole world lieth in the wicked one." Does "the whole world" there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were "of God?" The words "world" and "all" are used in seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that "all" means all persons , taken individually. | + | "The whole world is gone after Him." Did all the world go after Christ? "Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children," and "the whole world lieth in the wicked one." Does "the whole world" there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were "of God?" The words "world" and "all" are used in seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that "all" means all persons , taken individually.<ref>Charles Spurgeon, ''Particular Redemption'' (28 February 1858).</ref> |
</blockquote> | </blockquote> | ||
*In other words, if the Bible is to be deemed to be ''always'' plain/perspicacious, if such a philosophically absolute interpretation of the word "all" were intended by John or Paul, they would certainly have provided the necessary academic/philosophical clarification, in the immediate context, and the Bible would be much more of a systematic theology and less of a compilation of religious history and moral teaching, and simple witness of God's existence and love. | *In other words, if the Bible is to be deemed to be ''always'' plain/perspicacious, if such a philosophically absolute interpretation of the word "all" were intended by John or Paul, they would certainly have provided the necessary academic/philosophical clarification, in the immediate context, and the Bible would be much more of a systematic theology and less of a compilation of religious history and moral teaching, and simple witness of God's existence and love. | ||
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*Latter-day Saints are happy to grant that people may receive a witness from the Holy Ghost prior to baptism. In fact, Mormon missionaries ''depend'' on it, since only through a witness of the Spirit can someone be convinced of the truth. Joseph Smith said: | *Latter-day Saints are happy to grant that people may receive a witness from the Holy Ghost prior to baptism. In fact, Mormon missionaries ''depend'' on it, since only through a witness of the Spirit can someone be convinced of the truth. Joseph Smith said: | ||
<blockquote> | <blockquote> | ||
− | There is a difference between the Holy Ghost and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Cornelius received the Holy Ghost before he was baptized, which was the convincing power of God unto him of the truth of the Gospel, but he could not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost until after he was baptized. Had he not taken this sign or ordinance upon him, the Holy Ghost which convinced him of the truth of God, would have left him.{{ | + | There is a difference between the Holy Ghost and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Cornelius received the Holy Ghost before he was baptized, which was the convincing power of God unto him of the truth of the Gospel, but he could not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost until after he was baptized. Had he not taken this sign or ordinance upon him, the Holy Ghost which convinced him of the truth of God, would have left him.<ref>{{TPJS1|start=199}}</ref> |
</blockquote> | </blockquote> | ||
*The Bible, however, is clear that the gift of the Holy Ghost comes by the laying on of hands by those in authority (e.g., {{b||Acts|19|1-6}}). | *The Bible, however, is clear that the gift of the Holy Ghost comes by the laying on of hands by those in authority (e.g., {{b||Acts|19|1-6}}). | ||
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But historical records are clear on the matter. Baptism for the dead was performed by the dominant church until forbidden by the sixth canon of the Council of Carthage in A.D. 397. Some of the smaller sects, however, continued the practice. Of the Marcionites of the fourth century, Epiphanius wrote: | But historical records are clear on the matter. Baptism for the dead was performed by the dominant church until forbidden by the sixth canon of the Council of Carthage in A.D. 397. Some of the smaller sects, however, continued the practice. Of the Marcionites of the fourth century, Epiphanius wrote: | ||
<br><br> | <br><br> | ||
− | “In this country—I mean Asia—and even in Galatia, their school flourished eminently and a traditional fact concerning them has reached us, that when any of them had died without baptism, they used to baptize others in their name, lest in the resurrection they should suffer punishment as unbaptized.” (''Heresies'', 8:7.){{ | + | “In this country—I mean Asia—and even in Galatia, their school flourished eminently and a traditional fact concerning them has reached us, that when any of them had died without baptism, they used to baptize others in their name, lest in the resurrection they should suffer punishment as unbaptized.” (''Heresies'', 8:7.)<ref>{{Ensign1|author=John A. Tvedtnes|article=[https://www.lds.org/ensign/1977/02/insights/proxy-baptism?lang=eng Proxy Baptism]|date=February 1977|start=86}}</ref> |
</blockquote> | </blockquote> | ||
*Paul is criticizing those who practice baptism for the dead, and yet deny the resurrection, pointing out that this is inconsistent—why baptize for those who will not be saved and resurrected? Thus, Paul does not include himself and some others because ''he'' is not guilty of this theological inconsistency. | *Paul is criticizing those who practice baptism for the dead, and yet deny the resurrection, pointing out that this is inconsistent—why baptize for those who will not be saved and resurrected? Thus, Paul does not include himself and some others because ''he'' is not guilty of this theological inconsistency. | ||
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|response= | |response= | ||
*The critics have again misread the scripture. These same "New Testament Christians" didn't see anything about plural marriage that was absolutely forbidden. This is agreed on by such writers as [[Early_Christians_on_plural_marriage|Tertullian]], [[Early Christians on plural marriage|Justin Martyr]], and even [[Early Christians on plural marriage|Augustine]]. | *The critics have again misread the scripture. These same "New Testament Christians" didn't see anything about plural marriage that was absolutely forbidden. This is agreed on by such writers as [[Early_Christians_on_plural_marriage|Tertullian]], [[Early Christians on plural marriage|Justin Martyr]], and even [[Early Christians on plural marriage|Augustine]]. | ||
− | *The scriptural text is not as clear-cut as the critics would wish. The Greek can mean a variety of things, as the early Christian authors cited above seem to have recognized. It can "be read as excluding (a) the single, (b) the polygamous, (c) the divorced, [or] (d) those remarried after being widowed. The words can also convey the connotation 'devoted solely to his wife.'"{{ | + | *The scriptural text is not as clear-cut as the critics would wish. The Greek can mean a variety of things, as the early Christian authors cited above seem to have recognized. It can "be read as excluding (a) the single, (b) the polygamous, (c) the divorced, [or] (d) those remarried after being widowed. The words can also convey the connotation 'devoted solely to his wife.'"<ref>{{Book:Barney:Footnotes to NT for LDS 2|pages=240a}}</ref> |
*{{Detail|Early Christians on plural marriage|Polygamy not Biblical}} | *{{Detail|Early Christians on plural marriage|Polygamy not Biblical}} | ||
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{{DoYouHaveQuestions}} | {{DoYouHaveQuestions}} | ||
'''[[Questions All Mormons Should Ask Themselves|Click here for Part I (Q. 1-28)]]''' | '''[[Questions All Mormons Should Ask Themselves|Click here for Part I (Q. 1-28)]]''' | ||
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− | =={{Endnotes label}} | + | {{Endnotes label}} |
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Responses to Questions 1-28 | A FAIR Analysis of: Questions All Mormons Should Ask Themselves (Questions 29-58) A work by author: Contender Ministries
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The Jews gave up their business and attended to him. He obtained one Nathan in Jerusalem to pass for his Elias, or forerunner.[2]
Sources:
Scripture reference: Moroni 8꞉8
Sources:
Scripture reference: P of GP Moses 3:14 and DC 116-117; Genesis 2:8-15
We wish to obtain all that father Abraham obtained. I wish here to say to the Elders of Israel, and to all the members of this Church and kingdom, that it is in the hearts of many of them to wish that the doctrine of polygamy was not taught and practiced by us...It is the word of the Lord, and I wish to say to you, and all the world, that if you desire with all your hearts to obtain the blessings which Abraham obtained, you will be polygamists at least in your faith, or you will come short of enjoying the salvation and the glory which Abraham has obtained. This is as true as that God lives. You who wish that there were no such thing in existence, if you have in your hearts to say: "We will pass along in the Church without obeying or submitting to it in our faith or believing this order, because, for aught that we know, this community may be broken up yet, and we may have lucrative offices offered to us; we will not, therefore, be polygamists lest we should fail in obtaining some earthly honor, character and office, etc,"—the man that has that in his heart, and will continue to persist in pursuing that policy, will come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son, in celestial glory. The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them.
Sources:
Other reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 5, page 161
Sources:
Other reference: Articles of Faith, by Talmage, page 262, 34th Ed.
Sources:
Scripture reference: Luke 23:44 and 3 Nephi 8꞉19,23
And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey. (Joshua 24:24)
Sources:
Other reference: The Young Woman’s Journal, Vol 3, pages 263, 264
Sources:
Scripture reference: DC 124꞉56-60
Sources:
Scripture reference: 1 Timothy 1:4 and Titus 3:9
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matthew 12:31-32, see also Luke 12:10)
Sources:
Scripture reference: Genesis 3:21
"The whole world is gone after Him." Did all the world go after Christ? "Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children," and "the whole world lieth in the wicked one." Does "the whole world" there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were "of God?" The words "world" and "all" are used in seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that "all" means all persons , taken individually.[6]
"Following the holy Fathers, we unanimously teach and confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ: the same perfect in divinity and perfect in humanity, the same truly God and truly man, composed of rational soul and body; consubstantial with the Father as to his divinity and consubstantial with us as to his humanity; "like us in all things but sin"."
And with the clarity that historical consciousness has conferred relative to Jesus' being a human being in all things substantially like us, many things about the meaning of Incarnation too can be clarified. One is that one cannot really think of a preexistence of Jesus. ... But one cannot think in terms of the preexistence of Jesus; what is preexistent to Jesus is God, the God who became incarnate in Jesus. Doctrine underscores the obvious here that Jesus is really a creature like us, and a creature cannot preexist creation. one may speculate on how Jesus might have been present to God's eternal intentions and so on, but a strict preexistence of Jesus to his earthly existence is contradictory to his consubstantiality with us, unless we too were preexistent.("The Case For Spirit Christology", Theological Studies 53/2 (June 92))
Sources:
Scripture reference: Acts 10:44-47
There is a difference between the Holy Ghost and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Cornelius received the Holy Ghost before he was baptized, which was the convincing power of God unto him of the truth of the Gospel, but he could not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost until after he was baptized. Had he not taken this sign or ordinance upon him, the Holy Ghost which convinced him of the truth of God, would have left him.[7]
Sources:
Scripture reference: 1 Corinthians 15:29
In his epistle to the Corinthians, Paul cited the early Christian practice of proxy baptism for the dead as evidence of a future resurrection and judgment. Most non-Latter-day Saint scholars have failed to note the importance of this passage. Some pass it off as an outmoded practice of the early church, while others believe it refers to an apostate or heretical doctrine.
But historical records are clear on the matter. Baptism for the dead was performed by the dominant church until forbidden by the sixth canon of the Council of Carthage in A.D. 397. Some of the smaller sects, however, continued the practice. Of the Marcionites of the fourth century, Epiphanius wrote:
“In this country—I mean Asia—and even in Galatia, their school flourished eminently and a traditional fact concerning them has reached us, that when any of them had died without baptism, they used to baptize others in their name, lest in the resurrection they should suffer punishment as unbaptized.” (Heresies, 8:7.)[8]
Sources:
Scripture reference: 1 Timothy 3:2
Sources:
Scripture reference: Matthew 7:13,14
Sources:
Scripture reference: John 10:9; 1Corinthians 1:18; Ephesians 2:8-10; Colossians 1:12-14; Romans 4:8; 1 Peter 2:24; Acts 16:31; John 1:12; 1 John 5:12,13; Romans 5:1 and Romans 8:1
Sources:
Scripture reference: John 1:12, Colossians 1:27, and Revelation 3:20
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Click here for Part I (Q. 1-28)
Notes
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