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| *Here is a statement from Joseph Smith that was ''not'' included in the presentation: | | *Here is a statement from Joseph Smith that was ''not'' included in the presentation: |
| <blockquote> | | <blockquote> |
− | The stupendous ruins, the elegant sculpture, and the magnificence of '''the ruins of Guatamala''' [Guatemala], and other cities, corroborate this statement, and show that a great and mighty people-men of great minds, clear intellect, bright genius, and comprehensive designs inhabited '''this continent'''. Their ruins speak of their greatness; the Book of Mormen [Mormon} unfolds their history.-ED.{{ref|ts.15July}} {{ea}} | + | The stupendous ruins, the elegant sculpture, and the magnificence of '''the ruins of Guatamala''' [Guatemala], and other cities, corroborate this statement, and show that a great and mighty people-men of great minds, clear intellect, bright genius, and comprehensive designs inhabited '''this continent'''. Their ruins speak of their greatness; the Book of Mormen [Mormon} unfolds their history.-ED. {{ea}}<ref>{{TS1|author=Joseph Smith (editor)|article=American Antiquities|vol=3|num=18|date=15 July 1842|start=860}}</ref> |
| </blockquote> | | </blockquote> |
| *Page 862 of this issue of the Times and Seasons states: "The Times and Seasons, Is edited, printed and published about the first and fifteenth of every month, on the corner of Water and Bain Streets, Nauvoo, Hancock County, Illinois, by JOSEPH SMITH." This statement was signed "ED," which attributes it directly to Joseph Smith. | | *Page 862 of this issue of the Times and Seasons states: "The Times and Seasons, Is edited, printed and published about the first and fifteenth of every month, on the corner of Water and Bain Streets, Nauvoo, Hancock County, Illinois, by JOSEPH SMITH." This statement was signed "ED," which attributes it directly to Joseph Smith. |
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| *{{FalseStatement}}: '''What did Joseph Smith have to say about this?''' The narrator attempts to equate Zion ''exclusively'' with the location of the New Jerusalem, but this contradicts the words of Joseph Smith: | | *{{FalseStatement}}: '''What did Joseph Smith have to say about this?''' The narrator attempts to equate Zion ''exclusively'' with the location of the New Jerusalem, but this contradicts the words of Joseph Smith: |
| <blockquote> | | <blockquote> |
− | ...speaking of the '''Land of Zion, It consists of all N[orth] & S[outh] America''' but that any place where the Saints gather is Zion which every righteous man will build up for a place of safety for his children...'''The redemption of Zion is the redemption of all N[orth] & S[outh] America.'''" {{ea}} {{ref|coray1}} | + | ...speaking of the '''Land of Zion, It consists of all N[orth] & S[outh] America''' but that any place where the Saints gather is Zion which every righteous man will build up for a place of safety for his children...'''The redemption of Zion is the redemption of all N[orth] & S[outh] America.'''" {{ea}}<ref>{{BYUS1|author=Martha Jane Knowlton Coray, [edited by Dean C. Jessee]|article=[https://byustudies.byu.edu/showtitle.aspx?title=5383 Joseph Smith's July 19, 1840 Discourse]|vol=19|num=3|date=Spring 1979|start=392}}</ref> |
| </blockquote> | | </blockquote> |
| *Other latter-day prophets have declared that North and South America constitute the land of Zion: see [[Location of Zion]]. | | *Other latter-day prophets have declared that North and South America constitute the land of Zion: see [[Location of Zion]]. |
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| *For example, Wilford Woodruff said: | | *For example, Wilford Woodruff said: |
| <blockquote> | | <blockquote> |
− | '''This land, North and South America''', is the land of Zion; it is a '''choice land-the land that was given by promise''' from old father Jacob to his grandson and his descendants, the land on which the Zion of God should be established in the latter days. {{ea}} {{ref|JoD.15:279}} | + | '''This land, North and South America''', is the land of Zion; it is a '''choice land-the land that was given by promise''' from old father Jacob to his grandson and his descendants, the land on which the Zion of God should be established in the latter days. {{ea}}<ref>{{JDfairwiki|author=Wilford Woodruff|disc=35|vol=15|start=279}}</ref> |
| </blockquote> | | </blockquote> |
| * See also: [http://www.fairlds.org/DNA_Evidence_for_Book_of_Mormon_Geography/DEBMG04F.html more examples]. | | * See also: [http://www.fairlds.org/DNA_Evidence_for_Book_of_Mormon_Geography/DEBMG04F.html more examples]. |
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| {{EndClaimsTable}} | | {{EndClaimsTable}} |
| | | |
− | =={{Endnotes label}}== | + | == == |
− | #{{note|ts.15July}} {{TS1|author=Joseph Smith (editor)|article=American Antiquities|vol=3|num=18|date=15 July 1842|start=860}}
| + | {{Endnotes label}} |
− | <!-- Section 4 --> | + | <references /> |
− | #{{note|coray1}}Martha Jane Knowlton Coray, [edited by Dean C. Jessee], "Joseph Smith's July 19, 1840 Discourse," Brigham Young University Studies 19/ 3 (Spring 1979): 392.
| + | |
− | #{{note|JoD.15:279}}{{JDfairwiki|author=Wilford Woodruff|disc=35|vol=15|start=279}}
| |
− | <!-- Section 5 -->
| |
− | #{{note|ivins1}}Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report (April 1929): 16.
| |
| {{Articles Footer 1}} {{Articles Footer 2}} {{Articles Footer 3}} {{Articles Footer 4}} {{Articles Footer 5}} {{Articles Footer 6}} {{Articles Footer 7}} {{Articles Footer 8}} {{Articles Footer 9}} {{Articles Footer 10}} | | {{Articles Footer 1}} {{Articles Footer 2}} {{Articles Footer 3}} {{Articles Footer 4}} {{Articles Footer 5}} {{Articles Footer 6}} {{Articles Footer 7}} {{Articles Footer 8}} {{Articles Footer 9}} {{Articles Footer 10}} |
| | | |
| [[fr:Specific works/DNA Evidence for Book of Mormon Geography (DVD)/Index]] | | [[fr:Specific works/DNA Evidence for Book of Mormon Geography (DVD)/Index]] |
The following tables respond to specific geographical claims made in the DVD. Only the geographical claims are treated here. For other issues related to this DVD and the presentation "Introduction to Book of Mormon Evidences," see the following:
It is claimed in the DVD and associated seminars that criticisms related to DNA and the Book of Mormon have not been addressed by LDS scholars. This is incorrect. For a detailed discussion of DNA related claims, see the following:
Page
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Claim
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Response
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Author's sources
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DVD 3-3:55
|
- The DVD provides the following quote from the Wentworth Letter, in which Joseph said:
"I was also informed concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country, and shown who they were, where they came from, a brief sketch of their origin, their progress, their civilization, their laws, their governments. And all this happened on this continent...The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country." (emphasis added)
|
- Misrepresentation of source
- Note that the following text from the Wentworth Letter is ommitted from the presentation:
The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country. This book also tells us that our Saviour [Savior] made his appearance upon this continent after his resurrection, that he planted the gospel here in all its fulness [fullness], and richness, and power, and blessing; that they had apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers and evangelists; the same order, the same priesthood, the same ordinances, gifts, powers, and blessing, as was enjoyed on the eastern continent, that the people were cut off in consequence of their transgressions... (emphasis added)
- Note that in the portion of the Wentworth letter that follows the quote given by the presenter, that Joseph refers to "the eastern continent."
- It is claimed that the reference to "this country" refers to the United States of America. One must remember that the United States was much smaller at this time.
- Most of the Native Americans referred to resided in territories which were not part of the United States. Most of the land to the west in the 1830's was designated as "Unorganized Territory" and "Mexican Possessions."
- See FAIR:Reviews of DNA Evidence for Book of Mormon Geography:Joseph Smith
|
|
DVD 3-4:37
|
- Author's quote: I went back and looked in Noah Webster's dictionary of the 1850's, when Joseph Smith was around, and when it said "continent," they're not talking about North and South America. OK? There's a North American continent and a South American continent in Noah Webster's dictionary.
|
|
|
DVD 3-4:58
|
- Joseph said in the American Revivalist that "The Book of Mormon is a record of the forefathers of our western tribes of Indians."
|
|
DVD 3-5:41
|
- In the American Revivalist, Joseph stated:
The Book of Mormon is a record of the forefathers of our western tribes of Indians... By it, we learn that our western tribes of Indians, are descendants from that Joseph that was sold into Egypt, and that the land of America is a promised land unto them.
- It is claimed that this letter was "written by commandment from God."
|
- The commandment to write the letter was not to confirm a geographical location for the Book of Mormon. According to B.H. Roberts:
The Prophet states subsequently that he wrote this communication by commandment of the Lord. The general condition of the world as noted by the Prophet at the commencement of this chapter, was doubtless the occasion of the Lord sending forth such a note of warning to the inhabitants of the earth as is here presented. (Joseph Smith, History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, edited by B.H. Roberts, volume 1 (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1972), 312).
|
|
DVD 3-6:22
|
- Joseph's mother said that he "would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent…"
|
|
|
DVD 3-8:46
|
- Joseph wrote during Zion's Camp that they were "wandering over the plains of the Nephites"
|
|
|
DVD 3-13:11
|
- The story of Zelph is claimed to prove that the Northeastern United States was the land of the Nephites.
|
|
DVD 3-16:51
|
- "Eight different people" are claimed to have said that they saw "wagon loads" of plates in the Hill Cumorah in New York.
|
- The question is not whether or not Joseph and the others saw a cave, but where that cave was actually located.
- The Hill Cumorah in New York is a drumlin, and is not geologically likely to have a cave such as the one described.
- Archaeology and the Hill Cumorah
|
|
DVD 3-17:26
|
- Joseph sent missionaries to the Lamanites.
|
|
DVD 3-21:41
|
- Missionaries were sent to the "borders of the Lamanites."
|
|
DVD 3-30:59
|
- In the Bernheizel letter, Joseph states:
"I received your kind present by the hand of Elder Wudruff and feel myself under many obligations for this mark of your esteem and friendship, which to me is the more interesting as it unfolds and develops many things that have great importance to this generation and corresponds with and supports the testimony of the Book of Mormon."
|
- Misrepresentation of source
- The presenter simply dismisses this statement and claims that Joseph's purpose in writing the letter was to express his friendship with Bernheizel, despite Joseph's praise of a Mesoamerican book and its relationship to the Book of Mormon.
- See FAIR:Reviews of DNA Evidence for Book of Mormon Geography:Joseph Smith
- Here is a statement from Joseph Smith that was not included in the presentation:
The stupendous ruins, the elegant sculpture, and the magnificence of the ruins of Guatamala [Guatemala], and other cities, corroborate this statement, and show that a great and mighty people-men of great minds, clear intellect, bright genius, and comprehensive designs inhabited this continent. Their ruins speak of their greatness; the Book of Mormen [Mormon} unfolds their history.-ED. (emphasis added)[1]
- Page 862 of this issue of the Times and Seasons states: "The Times and Seasons, Is edited, printed and published about the first and fifteenth of every month, on the corner of Water and Bain Streets, Nauvoo, Hancock County, Illinois, by JOSEPH SMITH." This statement was signed "ED," which attributes it directly to Joseph Smith.
- For more detail, see: Joseph Smith's geographical statements about the Book of Mormon.
|
Page
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Claim
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Response
|
Author's sources
|
DVD 4-1:29
|
- Missouri is the New Jerusalem.
|
|
|
DVD 4-3:05
|
- The narrator claims that the New Jerusalem is Zion.
|
- The author's claim is false: What did Joseph Smith have to say about this? The narrator attempts to equate Zion exclusively with the location of the New Jerusalem, but this contradicts the words of Joseph Smith:
...speaking of the Land of Zion, It consists of all N[orth] & S[outh] America but that any place where the Saints gather is Zion which every righteous man will build up for a place of safety for his children...The redemption of Zion is the redemption of all N[orth] & S[outh] America." (emphasis added)[2]
- Other latter-day prophets have declared that North and South America constitute the land of Zion: see Location of Zion.
|
|
DVD 4-2:47
|
- Missouri is the only "Land of Promise" in the Western Hemisphere.
|
- The author's claim is false: The prophets and apostles have clearly stated that Missouri is not the only land of promise, nor the only area to which Book of Mormon promises apply.
- For example, Wilford Woodruff said:
This land, North and South America, is the land of Zion; it is a choice land-the land that was given by promise from old father Jacob to his grandson and his descendants, the land on which the Zion of God should be established in the latter days. (emphasis added)[3]
|
|
DVD 4-3:35, IBME
|
- The New Jerusalem will be upon "this land," meaning exactly where the Book of Mormon prophet was standing when he made that statement.
- The Introduction to Book of Mormon Evidences seminar offers a strict interpretation of the words "this" and "that" as used in the scriptures. The word "this" is interpreted to mean the very spot upon which the statement is made.
|
- And how does the narrator know where the Book of Mormon prophet was standing when he made that statement? He simply assumes that Ether was standing in North America, and then uses Ether's own words to "prove" this!
|
|
DVD 4-4:40
|
- The Land of Promise is a "choice land," interpreted by the narrator to be "a land where people would choose to live."
|
- The term "land of promise" refers to whatever land the Lord has granted to His people, and upon which they are commanded to gather.
- See also: more detail.
|
|
DVD 4-5:34
|
- The choice land will be lifted up by God above all other nations because God approves of the political system ("nation") on the choice land.
|
|
|
DVD
|
- It is claimed that the gentiles mentioned in 1 Nephi 13 are Joseph Smith's ancestors (American colonists) because he brought the book forth.
|
DVD
|
- Where the Book of Mormon comes forth will be a land of liberty with no kings, fortified against all other nations, and God will be the King of the people of the land.
|
|
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Page
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Claim
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Response
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Author's sources
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DVD 6-1:54
|
- The narrator concludes that the Book of Mormon people used tents from the time that Lehi left Jerusalem. According to the narrator, "ancient peoples almost always had tents as a survival strategy" because "they didn't know at that time if the Syrians or the Babylonians or somebody were going to come to call and they might have to leave their permanent structures."
|
- Actually, Lehi's family could just as easily have had tents if his family traveled as traders.
- It is possible that the people had tents because they were often required to go to battle against the Lamanites. Any army would use tents or other temporary structures.
- The "tents" mentioned in the Book of Mormon are also likely booths or temporary structures used for the Mosiac festival of sukkoth (see Mosiah 2꞉2-6).
- FAIR Review Section 5: Identifying the Nephites
|
|
DVD 6-2:51
|
- In 124 B.C., the people brought tents to listen to King Benjamin's speech. This is used as proof that the people lived in tents.
|
|
|
DVD 6-3:30-3:44
|
- It is claimed that the Lamanites may have lived in tents in order to keep up with the movement of their food supply. The Lamanites are claimed to not have done "much in the way of city building."
|
- This is used to imply that the Lamanites were nomadic. However, when the sons of Mosiah travel to Lamanite country on their mission (prior to the time of Christ) the Lamanites were clearly living in cities. (This is in contrast to the DVD's claim that "they didn't do much in the way of city building.") From the descriptions of their kings and kings over kings, they were not only cities, but large ones with a complex social organization. There is some evidence for Lamanite nomadic hunting and gathering early in Nephite history (Enos 1꞉20), but this is not the dominant Lamanite lifestyle through most of the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon text disagrees with the presenter's claim that the Lamanites were nomadic throughout most of Nephite history.
- According to the Book of Mormon, Lamanites also lived in cities:
- "And these are the names of the cities of the Lamanites which were converted unto the Lord; and these are they that laid down the weapons of their rebellion, yea, all their weapons of war; and they were all Lamanites." Alma 23꞉13
- "Now the Lamanites and the Amalekites and the people of Amulon had built a great city, which was called Jerusalem." Alma 21꞉2
- Nomadic peoples can rarely threaten settled, agricultural societies with annihilation, since agricultural societies have higher birth rates, higher population densities, and more surplus food and expertise.
- FAIR Review Section 5: Identifying the Nephites
|
|
DVD 6-6:20
|
- Mesoamerican temples shown in a photo could not be "Nephite temples" because they date to "about 900 years A.D."
|
- To state that these structures were built "about 900 years A.D." is a gross over-simplification of facts. This statement ignores the complexity of overlapping Mayan cultures. The Maya built new structures on top of older structures. This is one of the reasons why it is so difficult to examine early pre-Classic Mayan structures which do date to Book of Mormon times.
- Amerindians as Lamanites/Maya and Olmec
- FAIR Review Section 5: Identifying the Nephites
|
|
DVD 6-6:40
|
- The Church produced film "The Testaments" depicts Mayan temples as existing during Nephite times.
|
|
|
DVD 6-7:11
|
- Mayan temples do not look like Solomon's Temple.
|
|
|
DVD 6-7:24
|
- Mayan temples were used to perform sacrifices, which is not consistent with the use of Solomon's Temple.
|
- This is not surprising either, since if the Mayans were related to the Lamanites they would have used their temples in a different manner than the Nephites. The Book of Mormon clearly states that by approximately A.D. 400 that the Lamanites were performing human sacrifices (Mormon 4꞉13-14).
- FAIR Review Section 5: Identifying the Nephites
|
|
DVD 6-7:24
|
- Hopewell (supposedly "Nephite") temples were used for 'proper' purposes, unlike Mayan structures..
|
- No one knows what rituals the Hopewell performed in their religious structures. There are no witnesses, and no written records. The presenters are simply presuming that their model is correct.
- FAIR Review Section 5: Identifying the Nephites
|
|
Page
|
Claim
|
Response
|
Author's sources
|
DVD
|
- The DVD claims that Mesoamerican cities are primarily built of stone.
|
- This indicates a misunderstanding of the extant knowledge about Mesoamerica. There are certainly impressive stone cities and ruins in Mesoamerica, but it is a mistake to conclude that these made up the whole city. Regional centers tended to have a core of buildings made of more durable materials, such as brick, stone, and earth. Most of the rest of the city was made of wood and mud ("waddle and daub") construction.
- For example, although the Church produced video "The Testaments" places the Book of Mormon in a Mesoamerican setting, one notes that the houses being lived in are made of wood. It is also important to note that many of the iconic Mesoamerican stone ruins date to after the Book of Mormon period, despite the unfortunate tendency of some graphic designers and movie makers to use images of these cities as if they were Nephite.
- FAIR Review Section 9: Nephite Structures
|
|
DVD
|
- The DVD claims that stone structures cannot be burned.
|
- Stone buildings and cities can and do burn. A stone city is not only made of stone. There are many other materials within buildings, used as part of the structures' construction and furnishings. Once fires are started, masonry can become unstable and stones can shatter from the heat, leading to further destabilization of the building. A modern day example is when arsonists burned the Nauvoo Temple. The temple was constructed of stone, yet is was destroyed by fire just the same. What was left after the fire became unstable and collapsed during a tornado. Clearly, a stone building is not immune to fire.
- FAIR Review Section 9: Nephite Structures
|
|
DVD
|
- The narrator claims that "if we're looking for temples made out of stone, then we're looking for the wrong kind of temples. Because these temples were made from timber."
|
- The narrator bases this assumption on Helaman 3:9.
And the people who were in the land northward did dwell in tents, and in houses of cement, and they did suffer whatsoever tree should spring up upon the face of the land that it should grow up, that in time they might have timber to build their houses, yea, their cities, and their temples, and their synagogues, and their sanctuaries, and all manner of their buildings.
- It should be noted that the people described in this verse do not represent all of the Nephites—only those who moved north.
- Scholars supporting the Mesoamerican location do not insist that temples must have been made from stone.
- FAIR Review Section 9: Nephite Structures
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|