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| + | #REDIRECT [[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The First Vision]] |
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| − | |title=[[../|MormonThink]]
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| − | |author=Anonymous
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| − | |section=The First Vision
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| − | ==A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The First Vision"==
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| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{Website response summary}}
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| − | The positions that this MormonThink article appears to take are the following:
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| − | *That Joseph's different accounts of the First Vision are "relatively ignored" by the Church, despite an [http://lds.org/study/topics/accounts-of-the-first-vision?lang=eng entire web page being devoted to them on lds.org] and various mentions in the ''Ensign'', including a [http://classic.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=66a205481ae6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD statement by Gordon B. Hinckley].
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| − | {{Website response label}}
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| − | {{MormonThinkIndexClaim
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| − | |claim=The First Vision wasn't even known by church members until 1842, and even then it wasn't very important. Joseph said that he was persecuted for telling people that he had seen a vision. There is simply no evidence that Joseph told anyone about the vision until many years later and not until after the Book of Mormon was published. There are no accounts in the newspapers, by neighbors, preachers or even by the members of Joseph's own family. There is much evidence to indicate that the First Vision either never really happened or was very different than we've been taught.
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| − | |think=
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| − | * This is absurd. If no one knew about the vision "until 1842," why was a skeptical newspaper account describing how Mormon missionaries were teaching that Joseph had personally seen God in November of 1830? Not only had Church members heard that Joseph had seen God, but they were preaching it and a hostile press was ''writing about it.''
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| − | |quote=
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| − | *LDS missionaries were teaching that Joseph Smith had seen God "personally" and received a commission from Him to teach true religion (''The Reflector'', vol. 2, no. 13, 14 February 1831).
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| − | *Report in a non-LDS newspaper that Mormon missionaries were teaching at least six of the beginning elements of the First Vision story (''Fredonia Censor'', vol. 11, no. 50, 7 March 1832).
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| − | * When the Rev. John A. Clark published his autobiography he mixed nine First Vision story elements together with the story of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and said that he learned them all in the Fall of 1827 from Martin Harris (John A. Clark, ''Gleanings by the Way'' [Philadelphia: W. J. and J. K. Simmon, 1842],---).
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| − | | |
| − | |link=Joseph Smith's First Vision/No reference to First Vision in 1830s publications
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| − | |subject=No reference to First Vision in 1830s publications
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| − | |summary=Critics claim that there is no reference to the 1838 canonical First Vision story in any published material from the 1830s, and that nothing published in this period mentions that Joseph saw the Father and Son. They also assume that it would have been mentioned in the local newspapers at the time. Learn the facts here.
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| − | |link2=Joseph Smith's First Vision/No mention in non-LDS literature before 1843
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| − | |summary2=No mention of First Vision in non-LDS literature before 1843?
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| − | |subject2=No mention in non-LDS literature before 1843?|summary=There is no mention of the First Vision in non-Mormon literature before 1843. If the First Vision story had been known by the public before 1840 (when Orson Pratt published his pamphlet) the anti-Mormons “surely” would have seized upon it as an evidence of Joseph Smith’s imposture.
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| − | }}
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| − | {{MormonThinkIndexClaim
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| − | |claim=James B. Allen, who served as assistant church historian, frankly admitted that the story of the first vision "was not given general circulation in the 1830's." (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn 1966, p.33). Dr. Allen makes some startling concessions in this article. He admits, for instance, that "none of the available contemporary writings about Joseph Smith in the 1830's, none of the publications of the Church in that decade, and no contemporary journal or correspondence yet discovered mentions the story of the first vision...." Dr. Allen goes on to state that in the 1830's "the general membership of the Church knew little, if anything, about it."
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| − | |authorsources=
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| − | *Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn 1966, pages 29-45.
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| − | |think=
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| − | *That isn't exactly what James B. Allen said. He said that the story "at best" received "limited circulation."
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| − | <blockquote>
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| − | The fact that none of the available contemporary writings about Joseph Smith in the 1830s, none of the publications of the Church in that decade, and no contemporary journal or correspondence yet discovered mentions the story of the first vision '''is convincing evidence that at best it received only limited circulation in those early days.''' (emphasis added)
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| − | </blockquote>
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| − | * Why doesn't MormonThink quote any work done ''after'' 1966 on this point? Don't they realize that more documents or accounts may have been discovered?
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| − | |quote=
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| − | |link=Joseph Smith's First Vision/1830 statement about seeing "God"
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| − | |subject=Missionaries 1830 statement about Joseph seeing "God"
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| − | |summary=Critics have claimed that just because LDS missionaries were teaching around 1 November 1830 that Joseph Smith had previously seen “God” personally it cannot be assumed that this was a reference to God the Father since the Book of Mormon (completed ca. 11 June 1829) refers to Jesus Christ as “the eternal God” (title page; 2 Nephi 26:12). The argument is made that since this evidence indicates that Joseph Smith understood Jesus Christ to be “God” the statement by the missionaries may have simply meant that Joseph Smith had seen the Savior; not necessarily the Father.
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| − | |link2=Joseph Smith's First Vision/No reference to First Vision in 1830s publications
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| − | |subject2=No reference to First Vision in 1830s publications
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| − | |summary2=Critics claim that there is no reference to the 1838 canonical First Vision story in any published material from the 1830s, and that nothing published in this period mentions that Joseph saw the Father and Son. They also assume that it would have been mentioned in the local newspapers at the time.
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| − | }}
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| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{MormonThinkIndexClaim
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| − | |claim=Why did Joseph Smith fail to mention his First Vision when he first wrote the church history in 1835? Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery wrote and published a history of the church that supposedly covered all of the important points related to its beginnings. However, Joseph Smith records a different story than the "official" one later published in 1842. In Joseph Smith's own 1835 published history of the church, he says that his first spiritual experience was in 1823 after a religious revival in Palmyra that same year.
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| − | |think=
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| − | *Because Oliver wrote the history, not Joseph. Oliver was writing at the request of WW Phelps, and responding as Phelps wrote him letters.
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| − | *Why doesn't MormonThink mention here that Joseph ''wrote an account of his First Vision in his journal in 1835''? Or an account in ''1832''? They quote a reference from the Tanner's which mentions it later on the webpage. Why not acknowledge it here?
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| − | *Did you know that Oliver wrote the two-part account of Joseph's vision as part of the Church history and not Joseph? Did you know that the first part published described exactly the conditions that led to the First Vision, including Joseph's age of 14, before describing the vision itself?
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| − | *Did you know that by the time that Oliver published the next part, that he said that he had made a mistake on the year, and changed it to '''three years later''' (age 14 to age 17) and then proceeded to describe Moroni's visit instead? Do you get the idea that Joseph told Oliver not to continue the first vision account that he had started to publish and to focus instead on Moroni's visit?
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| − | *Did you know that Oliver indicated that he had written records that he was using to create the history, and that those records likely included Joseph's 1832 journal account of the First Vision?
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| − | |quote=
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| − | |response=
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| − | |link=Joseph Smith's First Vision/Accounts/Oliver Cowdery not aware of First Vision in 1834-35
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| − | |subject=Oliver Cowdery's 1834 account of the First Vision/Moroni's visit
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| − | |summary=Was Oliver Cowdery unaware of the First Vision as late as 1834–1835?
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| − | }}
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| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{MormonThinkIndexClaim
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| − | |claim=[I]n the early 1800s having visions wasn't perceived to be all that uncommon. Even Joseph Smith's father claimed to have had a vision - namely the Tree of Life vision. People believed in magic, seer stones, divining rods, etc. and people claiming to have visions weren't seen as all that strange. Like much of Joseph's work, the first vision is strikingly similar to someone else's story.
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| − | |think=
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| − | *{{Antispeak|mutually exclusive}}
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| − | *Which kind of explains why Joseph didn't really mention it to many people, or why many people didn't pay much attention if he did.
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| − | *MormonThink can't have it both ways: it can't be both astonishing that no one remembered Joseph talking about his First Vision in early Palmyra, ''and'' that such things were regarded as common. They ''were'' seen as common (and somewhat disreputable) and so it is no surprise that no one local paid any attention to it at the time.
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| − | * Pastors of that day looked down on people who claimed to see God in a vision - such things were being discouraged.
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| − | *It was the vision of ''Moroni'' and the subsequent recovery and translation of the Book of Mormon that caused Joseph to realize that his path was different than others who had claimed to see visions. Therefore, Joseph emphasized that and only wrote the full account of his First Vision much later.
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| − | |quote=
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| − | * As Richard Bushman noted:
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| − | ::The clergy of the mainline churches automatically suspected any visionary report, whatever its content...The only acceptable message from heaven was assurance of forgiveness and a promise of grace. Joseph's report of God's rejection of all creeds and churches would have sounded all too familiar to the Methodist evangelical, who repeated the conventional point that "all such things had ceased with the apostles and that there never would be any more of them."{{ref|bushman.41}}
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| − | |link=Joseph Smith's First Vision/No reference to First Vision in 1830s publications
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| − | |subject=No reference to First Vision in 1830s publications
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| − | |summary=Critics claim that there is no reference to the 1838 canonical First Vision story in any published material from the 1830s, and that nothing published in this period mentions that Joseph saw the Father and Son. They also assume that it would have been mentioned in the local newspapers at the time.
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| − | }}
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| − | {{MormonThinkIndexClaim
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| − | |claim=Since Joseph never told anyone about the vision, he wasn't persecuted. There is simply no evidence that he was ever persecuted for the First Vision....How strange that Joseph says that the neighborhood knew enough about it to persecute this obscure boy, but his own family hadn't heard about it at all. If Joseph's story had actually occurred and caused said excitement, someone would have mentioned it. No one did....God & Christ visit a young boy, and because of local gossip, he withheld that info from his family. And yet then he receives another visitation three years later from an angel, and immediately he tells his family? Why the inconsistencies?
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| − | |think=
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| − | *{{Antispeak|mutually exclusive}}
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| − | *Joseph never said that his vision caused "excitement." He described being persecuted for it:
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| − | :"Joseph did tell a Methodist preacher about the First Vision. Newly reborn people customarily talked over their experiences with a clergyman to test the validity of the conversion. The preacher's contempt shocked Joseph. Standing on the margins of the evangelical churches, Joseph may not have recognized the ill repute of visionaries. The preacher reacted quickly and negatively, '''not because of the strangeness of Joseph's story, but because of its familiarity'''. Subjects of revivals all too often claimed to have seen visions."{{ref|bushman.40.41}}
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| − | *MormonThink can't have it both ways: it can't be both astonishing that no one remembered Joseph talking about his First Vision in early Palmyra, ''and'' that such things were regarded as common (see above). They ''were'' seen as common (and somewhat disreputable) and so it is no surprise that no one local paid much attention to it at the time, other than to be scornful or dismissive if Joseph told them.
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| − | |quote=
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| − | * Joseph did not tell his family about Moroni until he was ''commanded'' to do so by the angel. Rather than being inconsistent, this reinforces the truthfulness of Joseph's account: he apparently wasn't inclined to tell everyone until he was directed to do so. Perhaps he had learned his lesson and was "once bitten, twice shy"?
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| − | * Why do you suppose MormonThink doesn't tell us this? It's right in Joseph's official history, and yet they act like his actions are completely mysterious. Do they not know the material at all, or are they hiding something intentionally?
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| − | : I shortly after arose from my bed, and, as usual, went to the necessary labors of the day; but, in attempting to work as at other times, I found my strength so exhausted as to render me entirely unable. My father, who was laboring along with me, discovered something to be wrong with me, and told me to go home. I started with the intention of going to the house; but, in attempting to cross the fence out of the field where we were, my strength entirely failed me, and I fell helpless on the ground, and for a time was quite unconscious of anything. The first thing that I can recollect was a voice speaking unto me, calling me by name. I looked up, and beheld the same messenger standing over my head, surrounded by light as before. He then again related unto me all that he had related to me the previous night, and commanded me to go to my father and tell him of the vision and commandments which I had received ([http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1.48-49?lang=eng#47 Joseph Smith History 1:48-49]).
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| − | {{MormonThinkIndexClaim
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| − | |claim=If it really happened, why couldn't Joseph Smith tell a consistent story about such a powerful experience as meeting with God and Jesus Christ face-to-face?
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| − | How many people forget where they were when their first child was born? Or when they got their patriarchal blessing? Or their wedding night? How many forget who they were with and what happened? If we can remember details such as year, circumstance and those involved, why couldn't Joseph Smith consistently recall basic facts about his incredible First Vision?
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| − | |think=
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| − | {{antispeak|mocking}} Note the characterization of Joseph's "powerful experience" and "incredible" First Vision.
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| − | *Joseph ''did'' remember consistently where he was and when it happened.
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| − | *How many of you forget the date of your anniversary? Or your dates of your kids' birthdays?
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| − | |quote=
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| − | }}
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| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{MormonThinkIndexClaim
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| − | |claim=In Joseph Smith's first handwritten testimony of the first vision in 1832, he says he already knew all other churches were false before he prayed. Smith testified: "by searching the scriptures I found that mankind did not come unto the Lord but that they had apostatized from the true and living faith and there was no society or denomination that built upon the gospel of Jesus Christ."....Yet in the "official" story written years later by a scribe, it has Joseph Smith saying: "I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong) and which I should join."
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| − | |think=
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| − | *If you had come to the conclusion that mankind has apostatized from the true faith, and you suddenly found Jesus standing in front of you, wouldn't ''you'' ask Him if any of those churches was the correct one? Or would you simply tell Him, "never mind, I already figured it out for myself?"
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| − | *Besides, where is the inconsistency? How many churches did Joseph have immediate knowledge of? Three or four? Joseph determined that the churches with which he had direct experience did not adhere to the scriptures and that therefore mankind "had apostatized from the true and living faith." During his vision, he then asked the Lord which church was right, because it had not occurred to him that the Lord's church ''didn't exist anywhere on the face of the earth.'' It had never entered into his heart that ''all'' churches were wrong.
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| − | |quote=
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| − | |link=Joseph Smith's First Vision/Contradiction about knowing all churches were wrong
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| − | |subject=Contradiction about knowing all churches were wrong
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| − | |summary=In his 1832 account of the First Vision, Joseph Smith said, “I found [by searching the scriptures] that mankind did not come unto the Lord but that they had apostatized from the true and living faith and there was no society or denomination that built upon the gospel of Jesus Christ as recorded in the New Testament.” But in the 1835 account he said, “I knew not who [of the denominations] was right or who was wrong.” Critics claim that thus counts as evidence that the First Vision story evolved over time.
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| − | }}
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| − | {{MormonThinkIndexClaim
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| − | |claim=There are earlier versions of the First Vision story in Joseph Smith's own handwriting, but they are not considered "official" and are relatively ignored by the church.<br><br>
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| − | One thing is clear, the LDS Church does a great disservice to investigators of its claims by presenting Joseph Smith's 1838 account of his first vision as the only version of these events.
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| − | |think=
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| − | {{Antispeak|doesn't count}}
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| − | *No, it isn't clear at all: Where does the Church claim that the 1838 account is the "only version" of these events?
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| − | *Did you mean to say that these accounts are "relatively ignored" ''except'' when they are ''mentioned in the ''Ensign'' and on the official Church website lds.org''?
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| − | |quote=
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| − | <blockquote>
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| − | During a 10-year period (1832–42), Joseph Smith wrote or dictated at least four accounts of the First Vision. These accounts are similar in many ways, but they include some differences in emphasis and detail. These differences are complementary. Together, his accounts provide a more complete record of what occurred. The 1838 account found in the Pearl of Great Price is the primary source referred to in the Church.<br>
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| − | —[http://lds.org/study/topics/accounts-of-the-first-vision?lang=eng ''Accounts of the First Vision''], Gospel Study, Study by Topic, located on lds.org. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
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| − | </blockquote>
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| − | | |
| − | <blockquote>
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| − | On at least four different occasions, Joseph Smith either wrote or dictated to scribes accounts of his sacred experience of 1820. Possibly he penned or dictated other histories of the First Vision; if so, they have not been located. <br>
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| − | —Milton Backman Jr., "[http://www.lds.org/ensign/1985/01/joseph-smiths-recitals-of-the-first-vision?lang=eng Joseph Smith’s Recitals of the First Vision]," ''Ensign'', January 1985.
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| − | </blockquote>
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| − | | |
| − | <blockquote>
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| − | Joseph's vision was at first an intensely personal experience—an answer to a specific question. Over time, however, illuminated by additional experience and instruction, it became the founding revelation of the Restoration.''
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| − | <br>
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| − | —Dennis B. Neuenschwander, “[http://classic.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=aec2515e04f5e110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD Joseph Smith: An Apostle of Jesus Christ],” Ensign, Jan 2009, 16–22.
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| − | <br><br>
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| − | I am not worried that the Prophet Joseph Smith gave a number of versions of the first vision anymore than I am worried that there are four different writers of the gospels in the New Testament, each with his own perceptions, each telling the events to meet his own purpose for writing at the time. I am more concerned with the fact that God has revealed in this dispensation a great and marvelous and beautiful plan that motivates men and women to love their Creator and their Redeemer, to appreciate and serve one another, to walk in faith on the road that leads to immortality and eternal life.<br>
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| − | —Gordon B. Hinckley, [http://classic.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=66a205481ae6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD “‘God Hath Not Given Us the Spirit of Fear’,] ''Ensign'', Oct 1984, 2
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| − | </blockquote>
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| − | * There is also a ''massive'' list of statements available. How can MormonThink ignore ''all'' these?
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| − | {{SummaryItem2
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| − | |link=Joseph Smith's First Vision/Church Hides Accounts (1910-1968)
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| − | |subject=LDS-Authored Publications (1910-1968)
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| − | |summary=Mentions of the various accounts of the First Vision in LDS publications (1910-1968)
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| − | }}
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| − | {{SummaryItem2
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| − | |link=Joseph Smith's First Vision/Church Hides Accounts (1969-1978)
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| − | |subject=LDS-Authored Publications (1969-1978)
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| − | |summary=Mentions of the various accounts of the First Vision in LDS publications (1969-1978)
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| − | }}
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| − | {{SummaryItem2
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| − | |link=Joseph Smith's First Vision/Church Hides Accounts (1979-1983)
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| − | |subject=LDS-Authored Publications (1979-1983)
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| − | |summary=Mentions of the various accounts of the First Vision in LDS publications (1979-1983)
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| − | }}
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| − | {{SummaryItem2
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| − | |link=Joseph Smith's First Vision/Church Hides Accounts (1984-1989)
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| − | |subject=LDS-Authored Publications (1984-1989)
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| − | |summary=Mentions of the various accounts of the First Vision in LDS publications (1984-1989)
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| − | }}
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| − | {{SummaryItem2
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| − | |link=Joseph Smith's First Vision/Church Hides Accounts (1990-1997)
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| − | |subject=LDS-Authored Publications (1990-1997)
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| − | |summary=Mentions of the various accounts of the First Vision in LDS publications (1990-1997)
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| − | }}
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| − | {{SummaryItem2
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| − | |link=Joseph Smith's First Vision/Church Hides Accounts (1998-2003)
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| − | |subject=LDS-Authored Publications (1998-2003)
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| − | |summary=Mentions of the various accounts of the First Vision in LDS publications (1998-2003)
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| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{MormonThinkIndexClaim
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| − | |claim=Oliver Cowdery's account in the 1834 "Messenger and Advocate" stated that the "first vision" occurred in 1823---not a word about an 1820 vision. Cowdery's account also related that Smith's interest in religion was sparked by the preaching of Methodist elder George Lane, rather than Smith's version which claimed that he was inspired by reading in the Bible at 14. Cowdery also stated that the date of the "religious excitement in Palmyra and vicinity" was in Smith's "17th year," which would have been 1823, rather than 1820.
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| − | |think=
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| − | *{{Antispeak|repeat}}
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| − | * MormonThink has not taken a close enough look at the available documents to understand the true nature of the criticism which they advocate.
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| − | * Oliver Cowdery did, in fact, know about the First Vision when he recorded his version of the history of the Restoration—he had physical possession of the Prophet's 1832 history.
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| − | * Cowdery's dating anomaly and confused reporting of facts likely occurred because the Prophet was extremely busy during this time period and did not have much of a chance for editorial oversight (Cowdery, in fact, was the editor).
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| − | |link=Joseph Smith's First Vision/Accounts/Oliver Cowdery not aware of First Vision in 1834-35
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| − | |subject=Oliver Cowdery's 1834 account of the First Vision/Moroni's visit
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| − | |summary=Was Oliver Cowdery unaware of the First Vision as late as 1834–1835?
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| − | }}
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| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{MormonThinkIndexClaim
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| − | |claim=There are other contradictions which cast doubt on the "first vision," such as the Smith family joining the Presbyterian church AFTER God has supposedly told Joseph that all churches were corrupt
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| − | |think=
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| − | * This claim is false. The "Smith family" did not join the Presbyterian church; Joseph's mother and a few siblings did. Lucy discusses another group to which she was attracted after the First Vision. She and much of the family was inclined thereto: Joseph was not, and ''he'' was the one told not to join any of them.
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| − | |quote=
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| − | * Lucy Mack Smith even reports what Joseph told her:
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| − | | |
| − | <blockquote>Shortly after the death of Alvin, '''a man commenced labouring in the neigbourhood, to effect a union of the different churches'' [note that this is not the Presbyterians], in order that all might be agreed, and thus worship God with one heart and with one mind.<BR><BR>
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| − | This scented about right to me, and I felt much inclined to join in with them; in fact, the most of the family appeared quite disposed to unite with their numbers; but Joseph, from the first, utterly refused even to attend their meetings, saying, "Mother, I do not wish to prevent your going to meeting, or any of the rest of the family's; or your joining any church you please; but, do not ask me to join them. I can take my Bible, and go into the woods, and learn more in two hours, than you can learn at meeting in two years, if you should go all the time."<BR><BR>
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| − | To gratify me, my husband attended some two or three meetings, but peremptorily refused going any more, either for my gratification, or any other person's.<BR><BR>
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| − | | |
| − | [p.91] During this excitement, Joseph would say, it would do us no injury to join them, that if we did, we should not continue with them long, for we were mistaken in them, and did not know the wickedness of their hearts.{{ref|lucy.90.91}} {{ea}}</blockquote>
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| − | | |
| − | * Lucy and some siblings were Presbyterian members, but this was ''prior'' to Joseph's First Vision:{{ref|lucy.74}}
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| − | :[48] [Prior to Joseph Smith Sr. losing his farm in Vermont around 1802] I heard that a very devout man was to preach the next Sabbath in the Presbyterian Church; I therefore went to meeting, in the full expectation of hearing that which my soul desired—the Word of Life. When the minister commenced speaking, I fixed my mind with deep attention upon the spirit and matter of his discourse; but, after hearing him through, I returned home, convinced that he neither understood nor appreciated the subject upon which he spoke, and I said in my heart that there was not then upon earth the religion which I sought. I therefore determined to examine my Bible, and, taking Jesus and his disciples for my guide, to endeavour to obtain from God that which man could neither give nor take away. Notwithstanding this, I would hear all that could be said, as well as read much that was written, on the subject of religion; but the Bible I intended should be my guide to life and salvation. This course I pursued a number of years. At length I considered it my duty to be baptized, and, finding a minister who was willing to baptize me, and leave me free in regard to joining any religious denomination, I stepped forward and yielded obedience to this ordinance; after [p.49] which I continued to read the Bible as formerly, until my eldest son had attained his twenty-second year....{{ref|lucy.48}}
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| − | * MormonThink is confusing the two. They do not understand the documents well at all. Why not?
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| − | |link=Joseph Smith's First Vision/Lucy Mack Smith and the Presbyterians
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| − | |subject=Lucy Mack Smith and the Presbyterians
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| − | |summary=Critics claim that since there was a religious revival in Palmyra, New York in 1824-25 which appears to match details of Joseph Smith's official Church history, he must have mistakenly mixed this event in with his narrative about what happened in 1820, and that the Prophet's mother joined the Presbyterian church after Alvin Smith died in late 1823. This contradicts Joseph's statement that she joined in 1820, thereby dating Joseph's First Vision to no earlier than 1823.
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| − | }}
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| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{MormonThinkIndexClaim
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| − | |claim=Cowdery's statement that Smith had wondered, several years after the alleged "first vision," as to whether "a Supreme Being did exist";
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| − | |think=
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| − | * This sentence does not say that Joseph Smith was trying to find out if there was a God.
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| − | * Joseph was seeking for:
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| − | # a full manifestation of divine "approbation" [or acceptance in the eyes of God, not in a God he doesn't already believe in] and
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| − | # for, to him, the all important information, if a Supreme being did exist [a parenthetical aside rather than a question Joseph was asking], to have an assurance that he was accepted of [H]im [Joseph was seeking reassurance as to his own standing with God]."
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| − | |quote=
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| − | |link=Joseph Smith's First Vision/Joseph Smith did not know if God existed in 1823
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| − | |subject=Joseph Smith did not know if God existed in 1823?
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| − | |summary=Critics claim that according to a historical document published in Kirtland, Ohio in 1835 the Prophet Joseph Smith did not know if God existed in the year 1823. This text, therefore, provides evidence that Joseph Smith simply made up the story about the First Vision happening in the year 1820. But, this misunderstands both the statement and the historical chronology.
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| − | }}
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| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{MormonThinkIndexClaim
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| − | |claim=and the fact that as late as 1851, church publications such as the "Times and Seasons" were calling the angel that visited Joseph "Nephi," rather than Moroni.
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| − | |think=
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| − | *Did you know that the first anti-Mormon book, ''Mormonism Unvailed'', published in '''1834''', referred to the angel as "Moroni?"
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| − | *Did you know that this depended upon a single error that was copied?
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| − | |quote=
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| − | * ''Mormonism Unvailed'' - 1834, reprinted as ''History of Mormonism'' in 1840 [an anti-Mormon book]
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| − | <blockquote>
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| − | After he had finished translating the Book of Mormon, he again buried up the plates in the side of a mountain, by command of the Lord; some time after this, he was going through a piece of woods, on a by-path, when he discovered an old man dressed in ordinary grey apparel...The Lord told him that the man he saw was MORONI, with the plates, and if he had given him the five coppers, he might have got his plates again. (emphasis in original)
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| − | </blockquote>
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| − | * There are [[Moroni's_visit/Nephi_or_Moroni#Sources_which_mention_Moroni|many other early sources]] that use the correct name of "Moroni". Why doesn't MormonThink tell us about them?
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| − | | |
| − | |link=Moroni's visit/Nephi or Moroni
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| − | |subject=Nephi or Moroni
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| − | |summary=The Church teaches that Moroni was the heavenly messenger which appeared to Joseph Smith and directed him to the gold plates. Yet, some Church sources give the identity of this messenger as Nephi. Critics claim that this shows that Joseph was 'making it up as he went along.' In fact, a single misprint was reprinted a few times. But, earliest sources (even hostile ones) give the name as "Moroni".
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| − | }}
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| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{MormonThinkIndexClaim
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| − | |claim=A young Joseph, an amazing vision, the birth of Mormonism - it all started with a great revival. Joseph Smith gave a vivid description of the revival that took place in his boyhood town of Palmyra, New York....This revival made a big impression on Joseph Smith, but what kind of mark did it leave in history? Could we pinpoint the place and date of this event and verify that it really happened? Would church records for the years immediately before and after a revival, show a sudden jump in church memberships telling us exactly when this took place? What if we found the actual records but there was no evidence of a revival?
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| − | |think=
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| − | *{{Antispeak|beg the question}}
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| − | * Where's the "vivid description" that MormonThink talks about? Joseph hardly ''describes'' the religious excitement at all, he merely says that it was there and that it made a large impression on him.
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| − | * MormonThink is begging the question: they are assuming what they want to prove. They are calling these events "a revival," when Joseph never called them by that term.
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| − | |quote=
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| − | |link=Joseph Smith's First Vision/Religious revivals in 1820
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| − | |subject=Were there revivals in 1820?
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| − | |summary=Critics claim that there were no religious revivals in the Palmyra, New York area in 1820, contrary to Joseph Smith's claims that during that year there was "an unusual excitement on the subject of religion...indeed, the whole district of country seemed affected by it"
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| − | |link2=Joseph Smith's First Vision/Methodist camp meetings
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| − | |subject2=Methodist camp meetings in the Palmyra area
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| − | |summary2=Critics claim that any association Joseph had with Methodism did not occur until the 1824-25 revival in Palmyra, and that his claim that the "unusual excitement" started with the Methodists in 1820 is therefore incorrect.
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| − | }}
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| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{MormonThinkIndexClaim
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| − | |claim=Multiple sources revealed evidence of a great religious excitement, with big gains in church membership for all the denominations mentioned by Joseph. But, instead of the revival beginning in 1820, it started in the autumn of 1824 and continued into the spring of 1825.
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| − | |think=
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| − | * This is irrelevant. There was a revival in 1824-25, but there was also religious excitement and camp meetings in the correct time and place for Joseph's account.
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| − | *MormonThink is relying upon an old and discredited chronology popular with anti-Mormon sources.
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| − | |link=Joseph Smith's First Vision/Religious revivals in 1820
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| − | |subject=Were there revivals in 1820?
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| − | |summary=Critics claim that there were no religious revivals in the Palmyra, New York area in 1820, contrary to Joseph Smith's claims that during that year there was "an unusual excitement on the subject of religion...indeed, the whole district of country seemed affected by it"
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| − | |link2=Joseph Smith's First Vision/Methodist camp meetings
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| − | |subject2=Methodist camp meetings in the Palmyra area
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| − | |summary2=Critics claim that any association Joseph had with Methodism did not occur until the 1824-25 revival in Palmyra, and that his claim that the "unusual excitement" started with the Methodists in 1820 is therefore incorrect.
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| − | |quote=
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| − | }}
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| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{MormonThinkIndexClaim
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| − | |claim=The second detail was Joseph Smith's statement that the revival took place "sometime in the second year after our removal to Manchester" (PGP/JS History 1:5). Research into existing tax records and property assessments indicate the most likely date for the Smith family's move onto their Manchester farm is 1822. A revival occurring in the second year after 1822 fits the 1824 revival date (Inventing, pp. 7-8).
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| − | |think=
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| − | * MormonThink is here citing a well-known anti-Mormon work, {{CriticalWork:Marquardt Walters:Inventing Mormonism|pages=7-8}}
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| − | * The U.S. Census Bureau listed the Smiths in Farmington (now Manchester) in 1820. The Smith farm, clearing the land and a log house, all supported evidence that the Smiths, and most everyone else, considered themselves in Manchester, even though they technically lived about 59 feet off their property (in Palmyra). Legal U.S. documents now considered the Smiths in Farmington (later called Manchester) even though, technically, the log house was 59 feet away on the Palmyra side of the line.
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| − | * MormonThink is not up to date, and is not citing all the documents. Why do you suppose that is?
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| − | |quote=
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| − | |link=Joseph Smith's First Vision/Smith family place of residence in 1820
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| − | |subject=Smith family place of residence in 1820
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| − | |summary=Critics claim that there are discrepancies in Joseph's account of his family's early history, which make his 1820 and subsequent revelations impossible, and that there is no evidence that the Smith family was in the Palmyra area in 1820 for the religious excitement and First Vision which Joseph reported.
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| − | }}
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| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{MormonThinkIndexClaim
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| − | |claim=FAIR believes that there was some sort of revival in 1820. I guess it depends on how you define a revival. Some believe that an ad in the newspaper for a church camp meeting is a revival. The revival Joseph seems to be referring to that sparked his quest is more like the big revivals that started in 1824 where membership jumped dramatically.
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| − | |think=
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| − | *{{Antispeak|beg the question}}
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| − | *No, FAIR does ''not'' believe that there was some sort of revival in 1820. FAIR states, based upon newspaper data, that there were Methodist camp meetings being held in the Palmyra area. FAIR never states that there was a "revival." MormonThink has locked onto the idea of a "revival," despite the fact the Joseph himself never called the "excitement" a revival.
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| − | |quote=
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| − | |link=Joseph Smith's First Vision/Religious revivals in 1820
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| − | |subject=Were there revivals in 1820?
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| − | |summary=Critics claim that there were no religious revivals in the Palmyra, New York area in 1820, contrary to Joseph Smith's claims that during that year there was "an unusual excitement on the subject of religion...indeed, the whole district of country seemed affected by it"
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| − | |link2=Joseph Smith's First Vision/Methodist camp meetings
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| − | |subject2=Methodist camp meetings in the Palmyra area
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| − | |summary2=Critics claim that any association Joseph had with Methodism did not occur until the 1824-25 revival in Palmyra, and that his claim that the "unusual excitement" started with the Methodists in 1820 is therefore incorrect.
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| − | }}
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| − | =={{Endnotes label}}==
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| − | #{{note|bushman.41}}{{Book:Bushman:Rough Stone Rolling|pages=41}}
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| − | #{{note|bushman.40.41}}{{Book:Bushman:Rough Stone Rolling:Short|pages=40-41}}
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| − | #{{note|lucy.90.91}} {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors|pages=90-91}}
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| − | #{{note|lucy.74}} Note that Lucy quotes Joseph's report that his mother and four siblings () were members of the Presbyterian faith prior to his vision in {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short|pages=74}}
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| − | #{{note|lucy.48}} {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short|pages=48}}
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