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Difference between revisions of "Countercult ministries/Watchman Fellowship/Section 10"
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| − | {{ | + | {{H1 |
| + | |L=Countercult ministries/Watchman Fellowship/Section 10 | ||
| + | |H=Response to claims in "Testing the Book of Mormon by Moroni 10:4" | ||
| + | |T=Watchman Fellowship | ||
| + | |A=Tim Oliver | ||
| + | |<=[[../Section 9|Claims made in "The Bible: 1,002 - Book of Mormon: Zero"]] | ||
| + | |>= | ||
| + | }} | ||
| + | {{ChartWatchmanSection10}} | ||
| + | <onlyinclude> | ||
| + | {{H2 | ||
| + | |L=Countercult ministries/Watchman Fellowship/Section 10 | ||
| + | |H=Response to claims in "Testing the Book of Mormon by Moroni 10:4" by Watchman Fellowship | ||
| + | |S= | ||
| + | |L1=Response to claim: Moroni 10:4 directs one to ascertain truth and gain knowledge by a method and a standard nowhere recommended in the Bible | ||
| + | |L2=Response to claim: Moroni 10:4 is not so much of a promise as it is a manipulative device | ||
| + | |L3=Response to claim: There being no Biblical warrant for proceeding as Moroni 10:4 directs, one cannot do so without invalidating the sincerity upon which the answer depends | ||
| + | |L4=Response to claim: Because the Book of Mormon cannot be proven by any test of its own devising (it must be tested by the Bible), Moroni 10:4 itself, weighed in the balance and found wanting, is sufficient evidence to prove the Book of Mormon false | ||
| + | }} | ||
| + | </onlyinclude> | ||
| + | |||
| + | ==Response to claim: Moroni 10:4 directs one to ascertain truth and gain knowledge by a method and a standard nowhere recommended in the Bible== | ||
| + | {{IndexClaimItemShort | ||
|title=Watchman Fellowship | |title=Watchman Fellowship | ||
| − | | | + | |claim= |
| − | + | Moroni 10:4 directs one to ascertain truth and gain knowledge by a method and a standard nowhere recommended in the Bible. To the contrary, the Bible teaches that the standard by which the truth of anything is to be known is the scriptures. | |
| − | + | |authorsources=<br> | |
| − | + | #Luke 24:27; Acts 17:11; Rom. 15:4; 2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:3 | |
| − | | | ||
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}} | }} | ||
| + | {{misinformation|The author accuses the Book of Mormon of employing circular reasoning, yet uses the same argument to support the Bible!}} | ||
| + | *The author claims that the the truth of anything is to be known by using the standard of the scriptures: the Bible. | ||
| + | *The author claims that the Book of Mormon (Latter-day Saint scripture) ''cannot'' be proven by any test of its own devising. | ||
| − | + | The Bible ''does'' tell us how to gain knowledge, and it is a scripture that Joseph Smith himself noted: | |
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<blockquote> | <blockquote> | ||
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. ({{s||James|1|5-6}}) | If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. ({{s||James|1|5-6}}) | ||
</blockquote> | </blockquote> | ||
| − | *{{ | + | *{{Detail_old|Book of Mormon/Moroni's promise|l1=Moroni's promise}} |
}} | }} | ||
| − | == | + | ==Response to claim: Moroni 10:4 is not so much of a promise as it is a manipulative device== |
| − | {{ | + | {{IndexClaimItemShort |
| + | |title=Watchman Fellowship | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
“Moroni 10:4 is not so much of a promise as it is a manipulative device” because if one allows that the verse may be true, then the only possible explanation for failing to obtain the result promised means that “one must lack a sincere heart, and/or real intent, and/or faith in Christ.” | “Moroni 10:4 is not so much of a promise as it is a manipulative device” because if one allows that the verse may be true, then the only possible explanation for failing to obtain the result promised means that “one must lack a sincere heart, and/or real intent, and/or faith in Christ.” | ||
| − | |authorsources= | + | |authorsources=<br> |
| − | + | #}} | |
| − | | | + | {{propaganda|We once again refer to the Bible for a response to this assertion. This time we emphasize the important part: |
| − | |||
<blockquote> | <blockquote> | ||
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. '''But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering.''' For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.'' ({{s||James|1|5-6}}) {{ea}} | If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. '''But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering.''' For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.'' ({{s||James|1|5-6}}) {{ea}} | ||
</blockquote> | </blockquote> | ||
| − | *{{ | + | *{{Detail_old|Book of Mormon/Moroni's promise|l1=Moroni's promise}} |
}} | }} | ||
| − | == | + | ==Response to claim: There being no Biblical warrant for proceeding as Moroni 10:4 directs, one cannot do so without invalidating the sincerity upon which the answer depends== |
| − | {{ | + | {{IndexClaimItemShort |
| + | |title=Watchman Fellowship | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
There being no Biblical warrant for proceeding as Moroni 10:4 directs, one cannot do so without invalidating the sincerity upon which the answer depends. | There being no Biblical warrant for proceeding as Moroni 10:4 directs, one cannot do so without invalidating the sincerity upon which the answer depends. | ||
| − | |authorsources= | + | |authorsources=<br> |
| − | + | #}} | |
| − | | | + | {{disinformation|There ''is'' a Biblical warrant for proceeding as Moroni 10:4 directs. One more time: |
| − | |||
<blockquote> | <blockquote> | ||
'''If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God,''' that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; '''and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering.''' For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.'' ({{s||James|1|5-6}}) {{ea}} | '''If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God,''' that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; '''and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering.''' For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.'' ({{s||James|1|5-6}}) {{ea}} | ||
</blockquote> | </blockquote> | ||
| − | *{{ | + | *{{Detail_old|Book of Mormon/Moroni's promise|l1=Moroni's promise}} |
}} | }} | ||
| − | == | + | ==Response to claim: Because the Book of Mormon cannot be proven by any test of its own devising (it must be tested by the Bible), Moroni 10:4 itself, weighed in the balance and found wanting, is sufficient evidence to prove the Book of Mormon false== |
| − | {{ | + | {{IndexClaimItemShort |
| + | |title=Watchman Fellowship | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
Because the Book of Mormon cannot be proven by any test of its own devising (it must be tested by the Bible), Moroni 10:4 itself, weighed in the balance and found wanting, is sufficient evidence to prove the Book of Mormon false. | Because the Book of Mormon cannot be proven by any test of its own devising (it must be tested by the Bible), Moroni 10:4 itself, weighed in the balance and found wanting, is sufficient evidence to prove the Book of Mormon false. | ||
| − | |authorsources= | + | |authorsources=<br> |
| − | + | # | |
| − | | | + | }} |
| − | + | {{propaganda|This is simply bizarre reasoning. The Bible tells us to ask God to learn truth. By this argument, God can never communicate the truth of the Bible, but could confirm the Book of Mormon, since this "test" is from the Bible. This is one of many [[Logical_fallacies/Page_1#Double_standard|double standards]] used by the critics. Why are they so desperate that their readers ''not'' pray and ask God? Why must the reader trust them, and not God? | |
| − | *{{ | + | *{{Detail_old|Book of Mormon/Moroni's promise|l1=Moroni's promise}} |
}} | }} | ||
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| + | </onlyinclude> | ||
| + | {{endnotes sources}} | ||
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| + | <!-- PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE ANYTHING BELOW THIS LINE --> | ||
Latest revision as of 00:03, 31 May 2024
Response to claims in "Testing the Book of Mormon by Moroni 10:4"
| Claims made in "The Bible: 1,002 - Book of Mormon: Zero" | A FAIR Analysis of: Watchman Fellowship, a work by author: Tim Oliver
|
| Claim Evaluation |
| Watchman Fellowship |
|
Response to claims in "Testing the Book of Mormon by Moroni 10:4" by Watchman Fellowship
Jump to details:
- Response to claim: Moroni 10:4 directs one to ascertain truth and gain knowledge by a method and a standard nowhere recommended in the Bible
- Response to claim: Moroni 10:4 is not so much of a promise as it is a manipulative device
- Response to claim: There being no Biblical warrant for proceeding as Moroni 10:4 directs, one cannot do so without invalidating the sincerity upon which the answer depends
- Response to claim: Because the Book of Mormon cannot be proven by any test of its own devising (it must be tested by the Bible), Moroni 10:4 itself, weighed in the balance and found wanting, is sufficient evidence to prove the Book of Mormon false
Response to claim: Moroni 10:4 directs one to ascertain truth and gain knowledge by a method and a standard nowhere recommended in the Bible
The author(s) of Watchman Fellowship make(s) the following claim:
Moroni 10:4 directs one to ascertain truth and gain knowledge by a method and a standard nowhere recommended in the Bible. To the contrary, the Bible teaches that the standard by which the truth of anything is to be known is the scriptures.Author's sources:
- Luke 24:27; Acts 17:11; Rom. 15:4; 2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:3
FAIR's Response
Fact checking results: The author has stated erroneous information or misinterpreted their sources
The author accuses the Book of Mormon of employing circular reasoning, yet uses the same argument to support the Bible!- The author claims that the the truth of anything is to be known by using the standard of the scriptures: the Bible.
- The author claims that the Book of Mormon (Latter-day Saint scripture) cannot be proven by any test of its own devising.
The Bible does tell us how to gain knowledge, and it is a scripture that Joseph Smith himself noted:
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. (James 1꞉5-6)
- For a detailed response, see: Moroni's promise
}}
Response to claim: Moroni 10:4 is not so much of a promise as it is a manipulative device
The author(s) of Watchman Fellowship make(s) the following claim:
“Moroni 10:4 is not so much of a promise as it is a manipulative device” because if one allows that the verse may be true, then the only possible explanation for failing to obtain the result promised means that “one must lack a sincere heart, and/or real intent, and/or faith in Christ.”Author's sources:
FAIR's Response
Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader
We once again refer to the Bible for a response to this assertion. This time we emphasize the important part:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. (James 1꞉5-6) (emphasis added)
- For a detailed response, see: Moroni's promise
Response to claim: There being no Biblical warrant for proceeding as Moroni 10:4 directs, one cannot do so without invalidating the sincerity upon which the answer depends
The author(s) of Watchman Fellowship make(s) the following claim:
There being no Biblical warrant for proceeding as Moroni 10:4 directs, one cannot do so without invalidating the sincerity upon which the answer depends.Author's sources:
FAIR's Response
Fact checking results: This claim is false
There is a Biblical warrant for proceeding as Moroni 10:4 directs. One more time:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. (James 1꞉5-6) (emphasis added)
- For a detailed response, see: Moroni's promise
Response to claim: Because the Book of Mormon cannot be proven by any test of its own devising (it must be tested by the Bible), Moroni 10:4 itself, weighed in the balance and found wanting, is sufficient evidence to prove the Book of Mormon false
The author(s) of Watchman Fellowship make(s) the following claim:
Because the Book of Mormon cannot be proven by any test of its own devising (it must be tested by the Bible), Moroni 10:4 itself, weighed in the balance and found wanting, is sufficient evidence to prove the Book of Mormon false.Author's sources:
FAIR's Response
Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader
This is simply bizarre reasoning. The Bible tells us to ask God to learn truth. By this argument, God can never communicate the truth of the Bible, but could confirm the Book of Mormon, since this "test" is from the Bible. This is one of many double standards used by the critics. Why are they so desperate that their readers not pray and ask God? Why must the reader trust them, and not God?- For a detailed response, see: Moroni's promise
Notes