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FAIR is a non-profit organization dedicated to providing well-documented answers to criticisms of the doctrine, practice, and history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
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==Response to claim: "To cling to faith in these areas, where the overwhelming evidence is against it, is willful ignorance, not spiritual dedication"== | ==Response to claim: "To cling to faith in these areas, where the overwhelming evidence is against it, is willful ignorance, not spiritual dedication"== | ||
{{IndexClaimItemShort | {{IndexClaimItemShort | ||
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*The author states earlier in his Letter, "it would likewise be arrogant of a Latter-day Saint to deny their spiritual experiences and testimonies of the truthfulness of their own religion." | *The author states earlier in his Letter, "it would likewise be arrogant of a Latter-day Saint to deny their spiritual experiences and testimonies of the truthfulness of their own religion." | ||
*However, with regard to Latter-day Saints who believe in their ''own'' spiritual experiences, the author arrogantly states that they are "clinging to faith" because of "willful ignorance" rather than spiritual dedication}} | *However, with regard to Latter-day Saints who believe in their ''own'' spiritual experiences, the author arrogantly states that they are "clinging to faith" because of "willful ignorance" rather than spiritual dedication}} | ||
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==Response to claim: "no death of any kind (humans, all animals, birds, fish, dinosaurs, etc.) on this earth until the 'Fall of Adam'"== | ==Response to claim: "no death of any kind (humans, all animals, birds, fish, dinosaurs, etc.) on this earth until the 'Fall of Adam'"== | ||
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*[[Question: What changes have been made to the ''Gospel Principles'' manual?]] | *[[Question: What changes have been made to the ''Gospel Principles'' manual?]] | ||
*[[Question: Is the concept of no death before the fall on the ''entire earth'' Church doctrine?]] | *[[Question: Is the concept of no death before the fall on the ''entire earth'' Church doctrine?]] | ||
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==Response to claim: "If Adam and Eve are the first humans, how do we explain the 14 other Hominin species who lived and died 35,000 – 250,000 years before Adam?"== | ==Response to claim: "If Adam and Eve are the first humans, how do we explain the 14 other Hominin species who lived and died 35,000 – 250,000 years before Adam?"== | ||
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*[[Question: Can Latter-day Saints have a non-literal view of the creation story, or have a somewhat more mythic view of the first five books of Moses given the Church's teaching of a historical Adam?]] | *[[Question: Can Latter-day Saints have a non-literal view of the creation story, or have a somewhat more mythic view of the first five books of Moses given the Church's teaching of a historical Adam?]] | ||
*[[Brigham Young (1871): "whether the Lord...made it in six days or in as many millions of years, is and will remain a matter of speculation in the minds of men unless he give revelation on the subject"]] | *[[Brigham Young (1871): "whether the Lord...made it in six days or in as many millions of years, is and will remain a matter of speculation in the minds of men unless he give revelation on the subject"]] | ||
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==Response to claim: "Science has proven that there was no worldwide flood 4,500 years ago"== | ==Response to claim: "Science has proven that there was no worldwide flood 4,500 years ago"== | ||
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*[[Question: How could the Garden of Eden have been in Missouri if the Flood was local?]] | *[[Question: How could the Garden of Eden have been in Missouri if the Flood was local?]] | ||
*[[Question: Doesn't the Bible say that the continents were divided immediately after the Flood?]] | *[[Question: Doesn't the Bible say that the continents were divided immediately after the Flood?]] | ||
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==Response to claim: "This doesn’t stop FAIR from acknowledging and admitting to the impossibility of Noah’s Ark and the global flood"== | ==Response to claim: "This doesn’t stop FAIR from acknowledging and admitting to the impossibility of Noah’s Ark and the global flood"== | ||
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'''Longer response(s) to criticism:''' | '''Longer response(s) to criticism:''' | ||
*[[Question: Are Church members required to believe in a global flood?]] | *[[Question: Are Church members required to believe in a global flood?]] | ||
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==Response to claim: "Other events/claims that science has discredited"== | ==Response to claim: "Other events/claims that science has discredited"== | ||
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*[[Question: What is the best way to understand the story of Jonah and the Whale scientifically?]] | *[[Question: What is the best way to understand the story of Jonah and the Whale scientifically?]] | ||
*[[Question: What’s the best way to understand the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and Lot turning into a pillar of salt scientifically?]] | *[[Question: What’s the best way to understand the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and Lot turning into a pillar of salt scientifically?]] | ||
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==Response to claim: "the sun getting its light from Kolob"== | ==Response to claim: "the sun getting its light from Kolob"== | ||
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*[[Question: What is the light which comes from the presence of God?]] | *[[Question: What is the light which comes from the presence of God?]] | ||
*[[Question: Does the Book of Abraham state that the sun gets its photons from Kolob?]] | *[[Question: Does the Book of Abraham state that the sun gets its photons from Kolob?]] | ||
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==Response to claim: "They carried honey bees across the ocean? Swarms of them?"== | ==Response to claim: "They carried honey bees across the ocean? Swarms of them?"== | ||
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*[[Padilla et al.: "The maya codex Tro-Cortesianus shows drawings of bees and parts of honey combs"]] | *[[Padilla et al.: "The maya codex Tro-Cortesianus shows drawings of bees and parts of honey combs"]] | ||
*[[Head: "The indigenous American bee is the melipona (a stingless bee). It produces only about one kilogram of honey per year"]] | *[[Head: "The indigenous American bee is the melipona (a stingless bee). It produces only about one kilogram of honey per year"]] | ||
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==Response to claim: "Does the lack of an explicit statement that they took their prized bees onboard their submarines to the Promised Land necessarily mean they didn't?"== | ==Response to claim: "Does the lack of an explicit statement that they took their prized bees onboard their submarines to the Promised Land necessarily mean they didn't?"== | ||
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==Response to claim: "In addition to the above Jaredite problems, other Jaredite problems and absurdities include"== | ==Response to claim: "In addition to the above Jaredite problems, other Jaredite problems and absurdities include"== | ||
{{IndexClaimItemShort | {{IndexClaimItemShort | ||
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'''Longer response(s) to criticism:''' | '''Longer response(s) to criticism:''' | ||
*[[Question: How can one properly view events in Ether scientifically?]] | *[[Question: How can one properly view events in Ether scientifically?]] | ||
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− | ==Response to claim: "Apparently Joseph forgot that he claimed Adam saw God face to face (God of the OT being Jesus). It’s also implied that Seth, Cain, and Enoch did as well. All of this contradicts the claim that the Brother of Jared is the first person to see the spirit body of Christ. | + | ==Response to claim: "Apparently Joseph forgot that he claimed Adam saw God face to face (God of the OT being Jesus). It’s also implied that Seth, Cain, and Enoch did as well. All of this contradicts the claim that the Brother of Jared is the first person to see the spirit body of Christ."== |
{{IndexClaimItemShort | {{IndexClaimItemShort | ||
|title= Debunking FAIR's Debunking (Debunking FairMormon) (20 July 2014 revision) | |title= Debunking FAIR's Debunking (Debunking FairMormon) (20 July 2014 revision) | ||
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'''Longer response(s) to criticism:''' | '''Longer response(s) to criticism:''' | ||
*[[Question: Why did Jesus say “Never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created” to the Brother of Jared, when Enoch and others had already seen Jehovah face to face?]] | *[[Question: Why did Jesus say “Never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created” to the Brother of Jared, when Enoch and others had already seen Jehovah face to face?]] | ||
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==Response to claim: "A beheaded man doing a pushup and trying to breathe? Not likely"== | ==Response to claim: "A beheaded man doing a pushup and trying to breathe? Not likely"== | ||
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'''Longer response(s) to criticism:''' | '''Longer response(s) to criticism:''' | ||
*[[Question: How is it possible for Shiz, after he had been beheaded, to raise up on his hands and struggle for breath?]] | *[[Question: How is it possible for Shiz, after he had been beheaded, to raise up on his hands and struggle for breath?]] | ||
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==LDS Truth Claims: Criticisms from Science== | ==LDS Truth Claims: Criticisms from Science== |
[[../Temples & Freemasonry Concerns & Questions|Temples & Freemasonry Concerns & Questions]] | A FAIR Analysis of: [[../|Letter to a CES Director]], a work by author: Jeremy Runnells
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[[../Scriptures Concerns & Questions|Scriptures Concerns & Questions]] |
Summary: The author concludes that "The problem Mormonism encounters is that so many of its claims are well within the realm of scientific study, and as such, can be proven or disproven. To cling to faith in these areas, where the overwhelming evidence is against it, is willful ignorance, not spiritual dedication."
Science is embraced by Mormonism and understanding the past is something we believe helpful to being more perfectly instructed in all things pertaining to the kingdom of God. Our theology is not threatened by science (D&C 88: 78-79).
Jump to details:
The problem Mormonism encounters is that so many of its claims are well within the realm of scientific study, and as such, can be proven or disproven. To cling to faith in these areas, where the overwhelming evidence is against it, is willful ignorance, not spiritual dedication.
Merriam-Webster's definition of the word "arrogance":
ar·ro·gance noun \ˈer-ə-gən(t)s, ˈa-rə-\
- an insulting way of thinking or behaving that comes from believing that you are better, smarter, or more important than other people
2 Nephi 2:22 and Alma 12:23-24 state there was no death of any kind (humans, all animals, birds, fish, dinosaurs, etc.) on this earth until the “Fall of Adam”, which according to D&C 77:6-7 occurred 7,000 years ago. It is scientifically established there has been life and death on this planet for billions of years. How does the Church reconcile this?
Longer response(s) to criticism:
If Adam and Eve are the first humans, how do we explain the 14 other Hominin species who lived and died 35,000 – 250,000 years before Adam? When did those guys stop being human?
Longer response(s) to criticism:
Science has proven that there was no worldwide flood 4,500 years ago....There are a bunch of other problems with the global flood and Noah’s ark story but I find it incredible that this is supposed to be taken literally considering the abundance of evidence against it.
Other events/claims that science has discredited: Humans and animals having their origins from Noah’s family and the animals contained in the ark 4,500 years ago.
Longer response(s) to criticism:
This doesn’t stop FAIR from acknowledging and admitting to the impossibility of Noah’s Ark and the global flood.
Longer response(s) to criticism:
other events/claims that science has discredited. *Tower of Babel
*People living to be 600+ years old
[. . .]
*Jonah and the whale
* People turning into salt in Sodom & Gomorrah
[. . .]
Longer response(s) to criticism:
the sun getting its light from Kolob (April 2013)
the sun receives its 'light from the revolutions of Kolob' (October 2014)
Longer response(s) to criticism:
They carried honey bees across the ocean? Swarms of them?See also the followup(s) to this claim from "Debunking FAIR’s Debunking" (20 July 2014 revision):
Response to claim: "Does the lack of an explicit statement that they took their prized bees onboard their submarines to the Promised Land necessarily mean they didn't?"
Longer response(s) to criticism:
However, the Jaredites regarded their bees very highly, giving them a special name (Deseret), which Moroni considered important and relevant enough to include in his very short history. Does the lack of an explicit statement that they took their prized bees onboard their submarines to the Promised Land necessarily mean they didn't? I'm of the interpretation that they took their prized bees with them. They had already carried their bees for many years in their travels in the wilderness. They carried their swarms of bees to the seashore. When they arrived at the seashore, they were there with their prized bees for four additional years. Why would the Jaredites jettison their cherished bees, which were obviously very special and important to them, when they left to the Promised land?
Ether 2:3: And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee; and thus they did carry with them swarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, seeds of every kind.
In addition to the above Jaredite problems, other Jaredite problems and absurdities include:1. There was no literal tower or linguistic scattering. Multiple written languages existed before 2200 B.C. This alone would disprove their existence. However, let's delve deeper. Assuming there was also a global flood as claimed by the LDS church, the world would have had only 200 years to repopulate itself, build a great tower, have the tower destroyed, and start this migration. It seems unreasonable for 3 families (all of Noah's children) to create such a large civilization in the time allowed.
2. Anachronisms, anachronisms everywhere. While bee keeping was not new, movable hives wouldn’t be created for another 3000 years. Transporting colonies was another 2000 years away (not to mention dangerous, and still destructive to the hive upon harvesting). Aquariums were another 2000 years off. Drying would have been an option, but you wouldn’t need a specialized, water tight bowl for this as claimed. Sheep were not introduced to America until the late 1400s. Likewise for european plants and other animals, especially the staples of the day such as European wheat and barley. So, bringing every kind of seed and herds of animals across the water in a barge likely never happened.
3. These ships didn’t exist. It would be about 1500 years until sea faring barges showed up in history. It was also 3500 years earlier than the first known submarine. It’s also the only wooden boat in history that is made with several water tight and usable doors, water tight corks in the top and bottom, and doubles as a submarine. That’s not even mentioning how it can be propelled by a wind that never stops; seeing as it has no sails, but would have significant drag from the weight and shape.
4. The timing doesn’t work. Coriantumr was found and lived with the People of Zarahemla, who came over at 587 BC. The average generation length is in the upper 20 years, with some nations reaching 30. Let’s go with 30 as it’s more favorable to the LDS side. That gives us a maximum timeline of (28 * 30 + 100) = 940 years. The Tower of Babel was said to have fallen in 2200 BC. This puts the final battle where Coriantumr kills Shiz at 1260 BC, and it bumps Coriantumr’s life span to an unrealistic ~800+ years. The other option is to say that the generation gap was far higher than normal (~58 years); however, such a late start for children would severely decrease birth rates and put the 4 million+ population into question.
5. The population number doesn't make sense. The book of mormon claims at least 2 million individuals, and an implication of at least 4 million. The 6 days of warfare imply a much larger number they do not state. That means in a span of 840 to 1613 years, this population (starting with at most 11 couples) was able to produce more humans than the entire world of 1 million people between 10,000 and 5,000 BC. Here’s another estimation to consider. So again, not impossible, but improbable with our current knowledge.
6. Lacking basic necessities. How much water would you need for 24+ people to survive 344 days on the ocean? According to the MayoClinic, each person needs 2.2-3.0 liters of water per day. Minimum. That's 756.8 liters per person per year, or 16649.6 liters for the entire trip for 24+. That's just for the sedentary adult. Now add the flocks and herds that they're also bringing. There's at least three sheep per flock. Multiple flocks, so even if we only add 6 sheep to the mix, that's another 12-24 liters per day or an additional 4128 liters of water per 3 sheep. If the herds are made of cattle, then you're now adding 40-70 liters per head per day. That comes to 13,760 - 24,080 liters per head. Now also ask how you're going to store these 40,729.6+ liters of water (40.7 meters, 1445 ft)? You're in a ship that can flip over any moment. You can't use pottery, barrels, or bowls. Any leaks would mean death. Animal skins would introduce bacteria. It's just not going to happen. And that's just water. Livestock, sanitation, scurvy/health, and food for everyone is another matter entirely. It's also worth mentioning that the WHO confirms these numbers will go up by 3-10x with even moderate activity or pregnancy/lactation. Higher salt intake (as it's the only means of preserving food at this time) would also increase water needs.8. Warfare is wrong. Native Americans around this time did not have steel swords. Millions of dead natives would have left a trace. And according to historians, hand to hand engagements did not last that long. We’re talking about a maximum of hours, not several days. Routing, sieges, and hunting down enemies would extend it, but that is not the story being told here...
Author's sources: Reddit user curious_mormon
Longer response(s) to criticism:
"Apparently Joseph forgot that he claimed Adam saw God face to face (God of the OT being Jesus). It’s also implied that Seth, Cain, and Enoch did as well. All of this contradicts the claim that the Brother of Jared is the first person to see the spirit body of Christ.'"
Longer response(s) to criticism:
A beheaded man doing a pushup and trying to breathe? Not likely.
Longer response(s) to criticism:
[[../Temples & Freemasonry Concerns & Questions|Temples & Freemasonry Concerns & Questions]] | A FAIR Analysis of: [[../|Letter to a CES Director]] A work by author: Jeremy Runnells
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[[../Scriptures Concerns & Questions|Scriptures Concerns & Questions]] |
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