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| − | {{FairMormon}}
| + | #REDIRECT[[Fabricated quotes from Brigham Young#Did Brigham Young state "If there ever comes a day when the Saints interfere with the rights of others to live as they see fit, you can know with assurance that the Church is no longer led by a Prophet, but a mere man"?]] |
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| − | ==Question: Did Brigham Young state "If there ever comes a day when the Saints interfere with the rights of others to live as they see fit, you can know with assurance that the Church is no longer led by a Prophet, but a mere man"?==
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| − | ===A blogger fakes a quote from Brigham Young===
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| − | The following fabricated quote has gained circulation on the web. The introductory phrase "I have never given counsel that is wrong" was indeed given by Brigham Young. (See: {{JDfairwiki|vol=16|disc=22|start=161}}) Unfortunately, the paragraph that follows is a complete fabrication:
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| − | <blockquote>
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| − | <span style="color:blue">I have never given council that is wrong.</span> I am a Prophet of God in this dispensation. I carry on the work that began with Joseph Smith. I led the Saints to the barren Salt Lake Valley and it is where we built Zion, even though Joseph Smith taught the Savior would return in Jackson County Missouri. Monogamous marriage is not the order of heaven, for it is only through polygamy that a man may achieve exaltation. The government should stay out of the lives of the Saints and let us worship and practice our religion according to the dictates of our own conscience. If there ever comes a day when the Saints interfere with the rights of others to live as they see fit, you can know with assurance that the Church is no longer led by a Prophet, but a mere man. The doctrines of this Church are eternal, for they were ordained before the world was and any man who changes these doctrines such as the temple ceremony, or the man who abandons polygamy, or allows blacks the Priesthood of God, is a fallen prophet.
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| − | I am Brother Brigham. And I am the voice of God.
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| − | </blockquote>
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| − | Ex-Mormon critics of the Church became excited about the quote and attempted to verify its source because it represented "an astounding batch of ammo if it is a true quote from B[righam] Y[oung]."<ref>Comment posted on the "Recovery from Mormonism" board by "MJ," October 07, 2010.</ref> On a different ex-Mormon board, one poster states that "I really, really want to post this quote tonight on my facebook wall, but I still am looking for a source," and that he "would really love for this quote to be a real B.Y. quote."<ref>Comments posted on "PostMormon.org" by "MyWife'sHusband," September 12, 2009.</ref>
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| − | ===Here is the real "I have never given counsel that is wrong" quote===
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| − | Here is what Brigham actually said:
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| − | <blockquote>
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| − | I am here to give this people, called Latter-day Saints, counsel to direct them in the path of life. I am here to answer; I shall be on hand to answer when I am called upon, for all the counsel and for all the instruction that I have given to this people. If there is an Elder here, or any member of this Church, called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who can bring up the first idea, the first sentence that I have delivered to the people as counsel that is wrong, I really wish they would do it; but they cannot do it, for the simple reason that <span style="color:blue">I have never given counsel that is wrong</span>; this is the reason. This people, called Latter-day Saints, have been laboring now over forty years. <ref>{{JDfairwiki|vol=16|disc=22|start=161}}</ref>
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| − | </blockquote>
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| − | ===The fake quote is a conflation of things that Brigham discussed, with a negative spin===
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| − | We examine here the individual elements of the fabricated quote and provide responses to it.
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| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{BrighamClaim
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| − | |claim=
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| − | "I am a Prophet of God in this dispensation."
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| − | |realquote=
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| − | "I have never particularly desired any man to testify publicly that I am a Prophet; nevertheless, if any man feels joy, in doing this, he shall be blest in it. I have never said that I am not a Prophet; but, if I am not, one thing is certain, I have been very profitable to this people."<ref>{{JDfairwiki|vol=10|disc=62|start=339}}</ref>
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| − | |response=Brigham's actual statement is at odds with the fabricated statement.
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| − | }}
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| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{BrighamClaim
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| − | |claim=
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| − | "I carry on the work that began with Joseph Smith. "
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| − | |realquote=
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| − | "to carry on the work of God..." <ref>{{JDfairwiki|vol=1|disc=12|start=75}}</ref>
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| − | |response=
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| − | *Brigham talks of carrying on the work of God, not the work of Joseph Smith.
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| − | *This is an attempt by the author of the quote to imply that Joseph Smith is more important to Latter-day Saints than God.
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| − | *{{Detail|Joseph Smith/Status in LDS belief}}
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| − | }}
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| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{BrighamClaim
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| − | |claim=
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| − | "I led the Saints to the barren Salt Lake Valley and it is where we built Zion, even though Joseph Smith taught the Savior would return in Jackson County Missouri."
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| − | |response=
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| − | *This is an attempt to imply that if Brigham were a true prophet, then the Saints would never have had to leave "Zion" in Jackson County.
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| − | *While recounting Jim Bridger's negative assessment of the farming potential of the Salt Lake Valley, Brigham Young would not have referred to the Salt Lake Valley as "barren" in this way. A small detail, but indicative of the author's tone and approach.
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| − | *Brigham Young would not have drawn attention to the failure to establish Zion in Jackson County in this way. There is actually a very extensive body of discussion of this in the [[Journal of Discourses]].
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| − | *Brigham never refers to the "barren Salt Lake Valley."
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| − | *{{Detail|Joseph Smith/Prophecies/Independence temple to be built "in this generation"}}
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| − | }}
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| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{BrighamClaim
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| − | |claim=
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| − | "Monogamous marriage is not the order of heaven, for it is only through polygamy that a man may achieve exaltation."
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| − | |realquote=
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| − | "The only men who become Gods, even the sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy"<ref>{{JDfairwiki|vol=11|disc=41|start=269}}</ref>
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| − | |response=
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| − | *While there are statements to the effect that plural marriage is a requirement for exaltation for those commanded to live it, Brigham Young would not have stated that priesthood-sealed "monogamous marriage is not the order of heaven."
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| − | *The author seeks to drive a wedge between pre and post-Manifesto Latter-day Saints, but he needs to completely manufacture quotes from Brigham Young in order to do it.
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| − | *{{Detail|Polygamy/The only men who become gods are those that practice polygamy}}
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| − | }}
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| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{BrighamClaim
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| − | |claim=
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| − | "The government should stay out of the lives of the Saints and let us worship and practice our religion according to the dictates of our own conscience."
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| − | |response=
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| − | *Brigham never made a statement like this, but other Church leaders have made statements to this effect:
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| − | **John Taylor: "[T]here is no law, human or divine, that can rightful[l]y rob us of those liberties or trample upon our rights. We have a right to worship God according to the dictates of our own conscience; and no man, legally, in this land, has a right to interfere with us for so doing." ({{JDfairwiki|vol=5|disc=31|start=182}})
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| − | **Orson Pratt: "If we do not transgress the law, then let us be free, like any other American citizens, and let us worship God according to the dictates of our own conscience."<ref>{{JDfairwiki|vol=7|disc=34|start=225}}</ref>
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| − | **George Q. Cannon: "[T]o take our flight as best we could in our poverty to some remote land where we could worship God according to the dictates of our own conscience in peace and in quietness."<ref>{{JDfairwiki|vol=26|disc=30|start=285}}</ref>
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| − | *{{Detail|Joseph Smith/Prophecies/Government to be overthrown and wasted}}
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| − | }}
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| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{BrighamClaim
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| − | |claim=
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| − | "If there ever comes a day when the Saints interfere with the rights of others to live as they see fit, you can know with assurance that the Church is no longer led by a Prophet, but a mere man." | |
| − | |response=
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| − | *This is an obvious allusion to California Proposition 8 and Utah Proposition 2. The author of the fake quote is seeking to punish the Church for its stance on gay marriage and the legalization of marijuana.
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| − | *Aside from the fact that nobody believes Brigham Young actually said this (cf. the inquiries from post-Mormon sites asking for references), the irony of using "Brother Brigham" to chastize the modern Church on homosexuality is striking.
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| − | *The phrase "mere man" does not appear in the 26 volumes of the [[Journal of Discourses]]
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| − | *The phrase "mere man" appears only once in the {{MAfairwiki|vol=2|num=5|start=270}}, but it is not used by Brigham Young.
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| − | *{{Detail|Mormonism and politics/California Proposition 8}}
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| − | }}
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| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{BrighamClaim
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| − | |claim=
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| − | "The doctrines of this Church are eternal, for they were ordained before the world was and any man who changes these doctrines such as the temple ceremony, or the man who abandons polygamy, or allows blacks the Priesthood of God, is a fallen prophet."
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| − | |response=
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| − | *Brigham never said any of this. The author of the fabricated quote simply wishes to imply that the Church should never change its doctrine or policies.
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| − | *The specific listing of changes in the temple ceremony, polygamy, and the priesthood ban show what the author thinks are the "money" issues that can demonstrate false or fallen prophethood. Brigham was actually very detailed about the parameters of change and knowing we are truly led by God-inspired leaders, despite changes and tough issues.
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| − | *{{Detail|Church doctrine/Changing}}
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| − | *{{Detail|Temples/Endowment/Changes}}
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| − | *{{Detail|Mormonism and racial issues/Blacks and the priesthood}}
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| − | }}
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| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{BrighamClaim
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| − | |claim=
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| − | "I am the voice of God"
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| − | |response=
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| − | *This fabricated quote is based upon another fabricated quote from the movie [[Specific works/September Dawn|September Dawn]]. In September Dawn, a movie about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, an actor portraying Brigham says, ""I am the voice of God and anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down. God has revealed to me that I have the right and the power to call down curses on anyone who tries to invade our lands. Therefore, I curse the gentiles." This quote is fabricated—Brigham never said this.
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| − | {{Detail|Non-existent quotes/Brigham Young/I am the voice of God}}
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| − | </onlyinclude>
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| − | {{endnotes sources}}
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| − | }}
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| | <!-- PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE ANYTHING BELOW THIS LINE --> | | <!-- PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE ANYTHING BELOW THIS LINE --> |
| | + | [[es:Pregunta: ¿Brigham Young declaró? "Si alguna vez llega un día en que los santos interfieren con los derechos de los demás a vivir como les parezca, puede saber con seguridad que la Iglesia ya no está dirigida por un Profeta, sino un simple hombre" ?]] |
| | + | [[Category:Questions]] |
