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− | |S= | + | |S=The web site MormonThink.com originally claimed to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in objectively presenting the "truth" about Mormonism. They authors have since abandoned the pretense that any of them are "active" in the Church. The founding webmaster was, by his own admission, pretending to be semi-active in order to destroy members' and missionaries' testimonies from within the social structure of the Church. The site pretends to be "balanced" by presenting information and links to apologetic sites, however, the conclusions reached by the site consistently reflect negatively on the Church's truth claims. The site also sometimes contains a large amount of Temple content. |
| |L1=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Translation of the Book of Mormon" | | |L1=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Translation of the Book of Mormon" |
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| |L18=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord" | | |L18=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord" |
| + | |L19=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Doctrine & Covenants" |
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A FairMormon Analysis of the critical website MormonThink.com
I fantasize about a full-blown faith-destroying session. In real life, I did put the bishop in his place over polygamy. He kept saying I was wrong about Joseph having other wives and being illegal and such. I proved him wrong and he ate crow. twas fun.
—MormonThink's first managing editor, Feb. 21, 2012, 12:50PM.
[1]
An individual displays a sign advertising MormonThink.com during "The American Atheists Mass Resignation Event" at the April 2014 General Conference
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A FairMormon Analysis of claims made on the critical website MormonThink.com
Summary: The web site MormonThink.com originally claimed to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in objectively presenting the "truth" about Mormonism. They authors have since abandoned the pretense that any of them are "active" in the Church. The founding webmaster was, by his own admission, pretending to be semi-active in order to destroy members' and missionaries' testimonies from within the social structure of the Church. The site pretends to be "balanced" by presenting information and links to apologetic sites, however, the conclusions reached by the site consistently reflect negatively on the Church's truth claims. The site also sometimes contains a large amount of Temple content.
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Overview
The website mormonthink.com is designed to lead Church members into questioning their beliefs in a non-threatening manner by claiming to be "objective" and "balanced." For years that site claimed to be run by active members of the Church. In reality, however, they were "active" only in the sense that some of them still occasionally attended Church—they did not accept the Church's truth claims, and they had no interest in strengthening belief. Instead, the site portrays Church leaders as liars, Joseph Smith as a fraud and con-man, and the Church as "an oppressive empire building corporation." The site includes links to FairMormon as a way of demonstrating their claimed "balance."
Each page on MormonThink.com typically includes quotes from Church sources, large amounts of block text copied from websites critical of the Church, a few references to LDS apologetics that are followed by mocking refutations by critics, and and ending summary which generally agrees with the critics. The bottom of each page contains links to critical sites, believers' sites and to some sites which they consider neutral.
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- Response to claim: "the "most correct of any book on earth" has undergone more than 3,000 textual and grammatical corrections."
- Response to claim: "when the BOM was first published, he tried to sell the copyright to the BOM to a publishing company"
- Response to claim: "the first edition of the BOM has on its title page the author listed as Joseph Smith"
- Response to claim: "This wasn't a family of illiterates. Education was important to the Smith family"
- Response to claim: "Joseph was known for story-telling"
- Response to claim: "Roberts...concluded that Joseph Smith had sufficient imagination"
- Response to claim: "Joseph simply incorporated this dream experience, that had such an impact on his father, into the BOM"
- Response to claim: "Many parts of the BOM are identical to the Bible....Plagiarism is not difficult for anyone to do"
- Response to claim: "The King James version of The Holy Bible has some translation problems...the BOM has these same errors"
- Response to claim: "Some LDS apologists admit that Joseph must have used the King James Bible when bringing forth the Book of Mormon"
- Response to claim: "if the sermon on the mount was not translated correctly in the Bible, why then, is it the same incorrect translation in the BOM?"
- Response to claim: "View of the Hebrews was a very popular book published in New England in 1823"
- Response to claim: "There was a reference to View of the Hebrews within Joseph Smith's lifetime"
- Response to claim: "Early American Influences in the Book of Mormon stands in direct contradiction to the testimonies of witnesses to Joseph Smith's translation process"
- Response to claim: "Joseph Smith may simply have had help from someone else to write the Book of Mormon"
- Response to claim: "The Spalding theory often does not get much attention...We think that the Tanners and Fawn Brodie did a disservice to the theory"
- Response to claim: "Dale Broadhurst has amassed a collection of various 1800s newspaper articles that report many accounts of those that support the Spalding Theory"
- Response to claim: "A lost Spalding manuscript was found in Hawaii"
- Response to claim: "Ethan Smith - the author of A View of the Hebrews was Oliver Cowdery's minister from 1823-1828"
- Response to claim: "More ongoing work is currently being performed in order to try to find a link between Rigdon and Smith before the BOM was published"
- Response to claim: "It should also take into consideration the fact that Joseph Smith had years to come up with text and plot"
- Response to claim: "If Joseph was indeed committing a fraud...He simply acted like he didn't know that Jerusalem had walls...OR if the BOM came from another source...then he may have been genuinely surprised"
- Response to claim: "Joseph likely memorized the pages well enough to continue where he left off or he may very well have peaked at the last page before he started again"
- Response to claim: "we were clearly taught that there was a curtain between Joseph and Oliver Cowdery...If that's the case...Joseph could have simply read from notes or even whole papers"
- Response to claim: "knowledgeable LDS historians endorse the idea that Joseph put his face in a hat with a seer stone and dictated the BOM to a scribe"
- Response to claim: "Emma blatantly lies in the following questions seriously damaging her credibility"
- Response to claim: "Emma's answers are blatant lies, as the historical record shows"
- Response to claim: "she didn't want to be portrayed as the woman whose husband made a fool of by claiming divine right to have relations with dozens of other women while he was married to Emma"
- Response to claim: "If there are others that produced works that far exceeded their capabilities, then this would show that Joseph's experience was not unique"
- Response to claim: "Their lack of ability, in each case, did not seem to deter them from producing works which equal, or easily surpass, the Book of Mormon in literary style and quality"
- Response to claim: "A righteous man who was deluded could have written the Book of Mormon, not aware that he was lying"
- Response to claim: "Some people believe that Joseph Smith's hand was moving by some strange force like the channelers do"
- Response to claim: "The book is clearly of purely human origin, penned by an author with a vivid imagination ....Together with the duplicity of Smith's associates Cowdery, Harris and Whitmer"
- Response to claim: "unless Laban was in the habit of coming home with blood-drenched clothing"
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- Response to claim: "The witnesses' experiences may have only been visionary in nature"
- Response to claim: "There are also several statements saying that the only time they saw the plates was when the plates were covered in a cloth or tow frock"
- Response to claim: "God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints"
- Response to claim: "All the witnesses had close ties to Joseph and his family"
- Response to claim: "Some of the witnesses, especially Martin Harris, were easily swayed by tales of the supernatural, especially in a religious context"
- Response to claim: "Of the witnesses that left the church, most believed that Joseph was at best a fallen prophet"
- Response to claim: "The witnesses, who have been heralded as good, honest, Abe Lincoln-type of men were later called liars, counterfeiters, thieves, etc. by Joseph Smith himself"
- Response to claim: "The 'testimony of the witnesses' is similar to testimonials which were commonly included in books"
- Response to claim: "A personal promise (and a threat of condemnation) coming directly from God is bound to have a powerful influence on a person’s thinking"
- Response to claim: "There are seven witnesses that say Solomon Spalding was the author of the Book of Mormon"
- Response to claim: "There are many witnesses to James Strang's claim of having unearthed metal plates which he translated into scripture"
- Response to claim: "Travis Walton, became an unwilling captive of an alien race when the other men fled in fear"
- Response to claim: "just because a group of people claims something extraordinary happened to them, it doesn't make it so"
- Response to claim: "There are many, many reported witnesses to UFOs, Bigfoot, the Lochness Monster, Abominable Snowman, alien abductions...Should they be believed as well?"
- Response to claim: "Just because three witnesses signed a statement saying they saw an angel, doesn't mean it really happened or that it didn't happen either"
- Response to claim: "this comparison shows some of the inherent weaknesses of the using just witnesses to prove historical events"
- Response to claim: "Why should we believe all the Book of Mormon witnesses over the sworn affidavits of over dozens of unrelated townspeople?"
- Response to claim: "None of the witnesses should have been related to Joseph or each other"
- Response to claim: "The witnesses should not have already been eager believers"
- Response to claim: "There should have been no financial motive"
- Response to claim: "Each of the witnesses should each have written their own testimony"
- Response to claim: "The witnesses should have been much more detailed about this amazing event"
- Response to claim: "The witnesses should have been interviewed independently immediately after going public"
- Response to claim: "The witnesses should not have used subjective language and say strange things like comparing seeing the plates with seeing a city through a mountain or using spiritual eyes instead of their natural eyes to view physical plates"
- Response to claim: "why was 'a supernatural power' needed for the witness John Whitmer to be shown the plates?"
- Response to claim: "The witnesses should not have been gullible people"
- Response to claim: "All of the witness should have been much more vocal and been interviewed much more often"
- Response to claim: "it would have helped had all the witnesses remained loyal to the Church for the rest of their lives"
- Response to claim: "It's also quite possible that Oliver was in on a deception with Joseph"
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- Response to claim: In the early 1800s having visions wasn't perceived to be all that uncommon
- Response to claim: Issues related to revivals in the Palmyra area in 1820
- Response to claim: Issues related to Oliver Cowdery's 1834-1835 Church history published in the Messenger and Advocate
- Response to claim: "There is no evidence that Joseph told anyone before about 1835, including his family, about the first vision story we know today"
- Response to claim: "the story of the first vision "was not given general circulation in the 1830's"
- Response to claim: "in the early 1800s having visions wasn't perceived to be all that uncommon"
- Response to claim: "How could Smith’s family be unaware of his vision while neighbors were persecuting him for it?"
- Response to claim: "Historical documents indicate that Joseph was persecuted for engaging in a confidence scheme using a magic rock-in-a-hat"
- Response to claim: "The date of the vision and his age varies - from 1823 (age 16), to 1821 (age 15), to 1820 (age 14)"
- Response to claim: "The reason or motive for seeking divine help changes"
- Response to claim: "Who appeared to him? – (1) a spirit, (2)an angel,(3) two angels,(4) Jesus, (5)many angels, and finally, (6) the Father and the Son"
- Response to claim: "he states that he already knew all other churches were false before he prayed"
- Response to claim: "some of the Smith family joining the Presbyterian church AFTER God has supposedly told Joseph that all churches were corrupt"
- Response to claim: "and the fact that as late as 1851, church publications such as the "Times and Seasons" were calling the angel that visited Joseph 'Nephi,' rather than Moroni"
- Response to claim: "Curious investigators and historians wonder if there is evidence of an 1820 revival in the historical record"
- Response to claim: "It started in the fall of 1824 and continued into the spring of 1825"
- Response to claim: "existing tax records and property assessments indicate the most likely date for the Smith family's move onto their Manchester farm was 1822"
- Response to claim: "An ad in the newspaper for a church camp meeting is not a revival that causes the 'religious excitement' that Smith described"
- Response to claim: "Records show that in June 1828, Joseph Smith applied for membership in his wife's Methodist Church"
- Response to claim: "But of the nearly 4,000 alterations, some of them had to do with Joseph's evolving belief about the nature of God"
- Response to claim: "The Fifth Lecture on Faith specifically states that the Father is a spirit"
- Response to claim: "In 1832 Joseph Smith revealed that a man could not see God without the Mormon Priesthood. This revelation is currently Section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants. Verses 21-22"
- Response to claim: "Swedenborg insisted: 'There are three heavens'"
- Response to claim: The First Vision teaches that "God the Father and Jesus Christ were separate beings: But this was not understood by church members during Smith’s lifetime"
- Response to claim: "How is it that JS could remember the precise date of the angel's visit in 1823, but could not remember the precise date of God's appearance to him in 1820?"
- Response to claim: "How do we know that it wasn't Satan (if he exists) that appeared to Joseph?"
- Response to claim: "the first vision version of April 1838 added significant material that bolstered his authority during a time of crisis"
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- Response to claim: "one of the reasons most commonly given in church to justify polygamy is: There were more women than men in the 1800s"
- Response to claim: "The reasons most commonly given by members (even if not published in church lesson manuals) to justify polygamy are:...Polygamy was not practiced until after the Saints started immigrating to Utah"
- Response to claim: "Member beliefs....Polygamy was not illegal in the 1800s"
- Response to claim: "The reasons most commonly given by members (even if not published in church lesson manuals) to justify polygamy are:...Polygamy was an acceptable way to rapidly increase the Church membership"
- Response to claim: "For example Brigham Young reportedly had 55 children by some 29 child-bearing capable wives but had those women had their own husbands they may have had 150 or more children in total"
- Response to claim: "The first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants (1835) included a section denying any practice of polygamy"
- Response to claim: "many church members, especially converts, naturally believe that Brigham Young started polygamy"
- Response to claim: "If we take the Book of Mormon witnesses' statements so seriously, shouldn't we also accept other things that they reportedly witnessed just as powerfully?"
- Response to claim: "Joseph's first polygamous marriage was before the sealing authority was given"
- Response to claim: "Although Henry eventually remarried, after Brigham Young told him that his wife and children belonged to Brigham and not to Henry, he continued to yearn for Zina and their children"
- Response to claim: "LDS apologists acknowledge Joseph married other men's wives"
- Response to claim: "Joseph Smith literally stole other men's wives and their children"
- Response to claim: "The following is from a love letter Joseph Smith wrote when he wanted to arrange a liaison with Newel K. Whitney's daughter Sarah Ann"
- Response to claim: "So why question whether or not Joseph had sex with his wives, even the ones who were already married to other men?"
- Response to claim: "he would have been breaking the "commandment" from God if he did not try to procreate with his wives"
- Response to claim: "Faithful Mormon and wife of Joseph Smith, Sylvia Sessions (Lyon), on her deathbed told her daughter, Josephine, that she (Josephine) was the daughter of Joseph Smith"
- Response to claim: "When Joseph supposedly propositioned (or actually had sex with) fifteen year old Nancy Marinda Johnson, Dr. Dennison, with the encouragement of a neighborhood mob, nearly castrated him"
- Response to claim: "Some critics believe that Joseph may have gotten some of his wives pregnant but had them get abortions"
- Response to claim: "Joseph Smith had "conjugal relations" with at least eight women in addition to his first wife, Emma"
- Response to claim: "If even the FARMS apologists, FAIR apologists and faithful LDS historians acknowledge that Joseph may have had sex with his polygamous wives (including the ones already married)"
- Response to claim: "Smith then asked for his only daughter, 14 year-old Helen"
- Response to claim: "The negative writings by Helen seem to greatly outweigh the positive writings"
- Response to claim: "it's futile for Mormon apologists to argue that Smith's sealing to Helen was 'dynastic' or 'spiritual' only"
- Response to claim: "It is clear that on May 26, 1844 Joseph lied about practicing polygamy"
- Response to claim: "The Church continued to practice polygamy after 1890"
- Response to claim: "a sitting apostle in the 1950s had a polygamous Father-in-law living in full fellowship in the church and was a temple worker, more than half a century after church leaders claimed to have abandoned polygamy"
- Response to claim: Gordon B. Hinckley..."Why did the prophet of the church just lie and say that polygamy was not doctrinal?"
- Response to claim: "The Church Almanac lists Parley P Pratt as assassinated while on a mission but he was really murdered by the irate existing husband of his latest fancy"
- Response to claim: "the circumstances surrounding Joseph's assassination was a result of the actions he took to prevent his being exposed as a polygamist"
- Response to claim: "Perhaps that's one reason we're told not to pray to our Mother-in-Heaven as we wouldn't know which one"
- Response to claim: "We have to wonder why an angel didn't appear to Emma to convince her that polygamy was commanded by God"
- Response to claim: "we can't think of any earthly reason for practicing polygamy"
- Response to claim: "although polygamy was practiced somewhat in Old Testament times, it was more of a social custom and not a religious commandment"
- Response to claim: "Why would Joseph make up the preposterous story that an angel with a sword commanded him to practice polygamy"
- Response to claim: "So why doesn't the spirit make us all feel warm fuzzies inside when it comes to polygamy?"
- Response to claim: "The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here"
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The "Spin Free" Section
The following articles extract all of the primary and secondary source quotes from the critical site, places them within their original context when possible, and provides links to the original sources online. This allows you to read the critics' articles free of critical or apologetic "spin." You read the quotes and decide for yourself what to think, without any help from FairMormon or from the critics at MormonThink. If you want to check the sources, we make it easy to go back and look at the originals whenever possible. We won't tell you what to think, and neither will the critics.
- MormonThink's "Translation of the Book of Mormon" source quotes without critical or apologetic commentary—
This is the "no spin" version of the web page. We provide all of the complete primary and secondary source quotes without any "Critic's comment," "Apologetic rebuttal" or "Our Thoughts" or "Editor comments" sections. We don't give you our interpretation of the quotes, but we do provide links to online primary sources of the quotes and provide additional context whenever possible. (Click here for full article)
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- MormonThink's "Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon" source quotes without critical or apologetic commentary—
This is the "no spin" version of the web page. We provide all of the complete primary and secondary source quotes without any "Critic's comment," "Apologetic rebuttal" or "Our Thoughts" or "Editor comments" sections. We don't give you our interpretation of the quotes, but we do provide links to online primary sources of the quotes and provide additional context whenever possible. (Click here for full article)
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- MormonThink's "The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon" source quotes without critical or apologetic commentary—
This is the "no spin" version of the web page. We provide all of the complete primary and secondary source quotes without any "Critic's comment," "Apologetic rebuttal" or "Our Thoughts" or "Editor comments" sections. We don't give you our interpretation of the quotes, but we do provide links to online primary sources of the quotes and provide additional context whenever possible. (Click here for full article)
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- MormonThink's "The Witnesses" source quotes without critical or apologetic commentary—
This is the "no spin" version of the web page. We provide all of the complete primary and secondary source quotes without any "Critic's comment," "Apologetic rebuttal" or "Our Thoughts" or "Editor comments" sections. We don't give you our interpretation of the quotes, but we do provide links to online primary sources of the quotes and provide additional context whenever possible. (Click here for full article)
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- MormonThink's "The First Vision" source quotes without critical or apologetic commentary—
This is the "no spin" version of the web page. We provide all of the complete primary and secondary source quotes without any "Critic's comment," "Apologetic rebuttal" or "Our Thoughts" or "Editor comments" sections. We don't give you our interpretation of the quotes, but we do provide links to online primary sources of the quotes and provide additional context whenever possible. (Click here for full article)
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- MormonThink's "The Kinderhook Plates" source quotes without critical or apologetic commentary—
This is the "no spin" version of the web page. We provide all of the complete primary and secondary source quotes without any "Critic's comment," "Apologetic rebuttal" or "Our Thoughts" or "Editor comments" sections. We don't give you our interpretation of the quotes, but we do provide links to online primary sources of the quotes and provide additional context whenever possible. (Click here for full article)
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- MormonThink's "Conflicts with Science" source quotes without critical or apologetic commentary—
This is the "no spin" version of the web page. We provide all of the complete primary and secondary source quotes without any "Critic's comment," "Apologetic rebuttal" or "Our Thoughts" or "Editor comments" sections. We don't give you our interpretation of the quotes, but we do provide links to online primary sources of the quotes and provide additional context whenever possible. (Click here for full article)
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- MormonThink's "Joseph Running with the Plates" source quotes without critical or apologetic commentary—
This is the "no spin" version of the web page. We provide all of the complete primary and secondary source quotes without any "Critic's comment," "Apologetic rebuttal" or "Our Thoughts" or "Editor comments" sections. We don't give you our interpretation of the quotes, but we do provide links to online primary sources of the quotes and provide additional context whenever possible. (Click here for full article)
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Summary: Grant Palmer published a paper called "Joseph Smith, Captain Kidd, Cumorah And Moroni" in the
John Whitmer Historical Association Journal in 2014. Palmer asserts that Joseph Smith acquired the names "Cumorah" and "Moroni" by reading stories of Captain Kidd in his youth. Palmer concludes that it is "reasonable to assert that Joseph Smith's hill in the "land of Camorah" [Comorah/Cumorah], "city of Moroni," and "land of Moroni"
[2] We respond to these claims in this article.
Summary: (
http://mormonthink.com/glossary/kirtlandtemplededication.htm)Regarding the heavenly manifestations that accompanied the Kirtland Temple dedication, Mormonthink concludes that "It's likely that Joseph said he was seeing something angelic and told the congregation what he claimed to be seeing. Those in attendance relayed what Joseph said he saw. Everyone was so excited for this grand event, that they likely got caught up in the moment and imagined some extraordinary things."
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Summary: The web site MormonThink.com claims to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in objectively presenting the "truth" about Mormonism. In general, the conclusions reached by the site reflect negatively on the Church. The best explanation of the purpose of the website is offered the words of its own webmaster, and by the testimonials of ex-Mormons who claim that the site caused them to lose belief and leave the Church.
Summary: (
http://www.mormonthink.com/endpage.htm) According to MormonThink.com, if the Church actually contained God's truth and authority, "we would expect the following things to have happened in this way." The following is a list of issues presented by the website followed by FairMormon's response. Most items on the list are standard anti-Mormon fare, issues FairMormon believes have been "asked and answered" many times. Nearly all points appeal to some type of intellectual or religious fundamentalism.
The FAIR Blog responds to these questions
A British man named Tom Philips has filed a fraud action in England against President Thomas Monson and is claiming that it will bring on the “Mormon Apocalypse.” However, rather than inciting fear and panic among the faithful, if they know about the case at all, the most common response is one of bewilderment among Mormons and non-Mormons alike. That is due partly to the fact that it seems quite odd that someone would pursue a case for fraud that is based on faith claims and personal opinions. But, at least for Americans, the odd nature by which the claim has arisen procedurally is equally puzzling.
As an American civil defense lawyer, I think I have been as befuddled by this case as anyone. So I’ve consulted British lawyers and legal sources and come up with the following guide to what Phillips has called, the “Mormon Apocalypse.”
Notes
- ↑ Comment by MormonThink's founding editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" on the ex-Mormon message board Recovery from Mormonism, Feb. 21, 2012 at 12:50PM. After FairMormon posted this quote, the original was deleted from the RFM board. The original thread in which it appeared, however, still exists here: Thread Anyone Fantasize About a Showdown with SP or Bishop?, Recovery from Mormonism, posted Feb. 20, 2012.
- ↑ Grant Palmer, John Whitmer Historical Association vol. 34 no. 1 Spring/Summer 2014