Difference between revisions of "Detailed response to CES Letter, Scriptures"

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{{Main Page}}
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{{Resource Title|Response to "Scriptures Concerns & Questions"}}
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{{H1
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{{FAIRAnalysisHeader
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|L=Detailed response to CES Letter, Scriptures
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|title=[[../|Letter to a CES Director]]
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|H=Detailed response to CES Letter, Scriptures
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|author=
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|S=
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|noauthor=
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|L1=
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|section=Scriptures Concerns & Questions
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|T=[[../|Letter to a CES Director]]
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|previous=[[../Science Concerns & Questions|Science Concerns & Questions]]
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|A=Jeremy Runnells
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|next=[[../Other Concerns & Questions|Other Concerns & Questions]]
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|<=[[../Science Concerns & Questions|Science Concerns & Questions]]
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|notes=
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|>=[[../Other Concerns & Questions|Other Concerns & Questions]]
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}}
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[[File:Chart CES Letter scriptures.png|center|frame]]
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<onlyinclude>
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{{H2
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|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
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|H=Response to section "Scriptures Concerns & Questions"
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|S=The author states that "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed murder, genocide, infanticide, rape, slavery, selling daughters into sex slavery, polygamy, child abuse, stoning disobedient children, pillage, plunder, sexism, racism, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, killing people who work on the Sabbath, death penalty for those who mix cotton with polyester, and so on."
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|L1= Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed..."
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|D1=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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|L2=Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed murder, genocide...pillage, plunder...2. Numbers 31...3. 1 Nephi 4...7. Numbers 21: 5-9"
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|D2=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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|L3=Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...rape...selling daughters into sex slavery, polygamy...sexism...8. Judges 19:22-29"
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|D3=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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|L4=Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...slavery"
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|D4=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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|L5=Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...racism"
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|D5=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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|L6=Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...human sacrifice"
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|D6=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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|L7=Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...child abuse"
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|D7=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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|L8=Response to claim: "that Laban would send his servants after Nephi and his brothers is ridiculous considering that the same God who had no problem lighting stones and taming swarms of bees"
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|D8=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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|L9=Response to claim: "God kills all the firstborn children in Egypt except for those who put blood on their doors?"
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|D9=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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|L10=Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...stoning disobedient children...killing people who worked on the Sabbath, death penalty for those that mixed cotton with polyester...Got a rebellious kid who doesn’t listen? Take him to the elders and to the end of the gates and stone him to death!"
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|D10=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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|L11=Response to claim: "1. D&C 132"
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|D11=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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|L12=Response to claim: "I’m asked to believe in not only a part-time racist god and a part-time polygamous god but a part-time psychopathic schizophrenic one as well"
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|D12=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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}}
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</onlyinclude>
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{{Back to top}}
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==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed..."==
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{{IndexClaimItemShort
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|title=Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision)
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|claim= To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...
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[…]
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<br><br>
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As a believing Mormon, I tried to rationalize some of the craziness by saying, “Oh, this is in the crazy Old Testament when the Law of Moses was in force.  Christ came and fulfilled the Law of Moses.”
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<br><br>
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The problem with this is that the crazy god of the Old Testament was Jehovah.  Who’s Jehovah?  The premortal Jesus Christ.  So, Christ is the crazy god of the Old Testament.  The Christ of the Old Testament and the Christ of the New Testament are light years different.
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}}
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{{propaganda| The author has many concerns about the scriptures. None of the things listed are "endorsed" by God. There are several things that can be misunderstood about the scriptures that can cause concern without a proper framework to view them through. Without it, it is easy to be bogged down by how critics misrepresent and misunderstand the scriptures. At the beginning of this section from the author, we give a suggested hermeneutic for viewing these things from the scriptures. It can show a unified purpose to some of that "craziness" in the Bible.
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|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
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}}
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'''Longer response(s) to question:'''
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*[[Question: How can one best read and understand the scriptures?]]
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*[[Question: How can one approach reconciling confusing, seemingly disturbing, or otherwise troubling texts from the scriptures?]]
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*[[Question: Why does God act so violently in scripture and especially the Old Testament?]]
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{{Back to top}}
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==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed murder, genocide...pillage, plunder...2. Numbers 31...3. 1 Nephi 4...7. Numbers 21: 5-9"==
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{{IndexClaimItemShort
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|title=Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision)
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|claim=To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed murder, genocide...pillage, plunder...2. Numbers 31...3. 1 Nephi 4...4. Exodus 12:12...7. Numbers 21: 5-9...
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}}
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{{propaganda| These are hard scriptures to understand. These are addressed in articles or articles ''linked'' to those articles below.
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|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
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}}
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'''Longer response(s) to question:'''
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*[[Question: How can one properly view scriptural texts that appear to endorse genocide, pillage, and plunder in the Bible?]]
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*[[Question: Do the scriptures endorse murder?]]
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{{Back to top}}
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==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...rape...selling daughters into sex slavery, polygamy...sexism...8. Judges 19:22-29"==
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{{IndexClaimItemShort
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|title=Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision)
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|claim= To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...rape...selling daughters into sex slavery, polygamy...sexism...8. Judges 19:22-29
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}}
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{{propaganda| The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.
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|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
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}}
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'''Longer response(s) to question:'''
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*[[Question: Did God endorse rape in the Old Testament?]]
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*[[Question: Are the scriptures misogynistic/sexist?]]
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{{Back to top}}
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==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...slavery"==
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{{IndexClaimItemShort
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|title=Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision)
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|claim="To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...slavery"
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}}
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{{propaganda| The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.
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|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
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}}
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'''Longer response(s) to question:'''
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*[[Question: What is the best way to understand servitude in the Old and New Testaments?]]
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{{Back to top}}
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==Response to claim:  "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...racism"==
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{{IndexClaimItemShort
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|title=Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision)
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|claim=To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...racism
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}}
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{{propaganda| The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.
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|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
 
}}
 
}}
  
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==Quick Navigation==
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'''Longer response(s) to question:'''
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<!-- *[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions#D&C 132|Response to section: D&C 132]] {{InProgress}}
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*[[Question: Do the scriptures promote racism?]]
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*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions#Numbers 31|Response to section: Numbers 31]] {{InProgress}} -->
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{{Back to top}}
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*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions#"that Laban would send his servants after Nephi and his brothers is ridiculous considering that the same God who had no problem lighting stones and taming swarms of bees"|Response to claim: "that Laban would send his servants after Nephi and his brothers is ridiculous considering that the same God who had no problem lighting stones and taming swarms of bees"]]
 
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*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions#"God kills all the firstborn children in Egypt except for those who put blood on their doors?"|Response to claim: "God kills all the firstborn children in Egypt except for those who put blood on their doors?"]]
 
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*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions#Deuteronomy 21:18-21|Response to claim: Deuteronomy 21:18-21]]
 
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<!-- *[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions#Exodus 35:1-2|Response to claim: Exodus 35:1-2]] {{InProgress}} -->
 
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*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions#Numbers 21:5-9|Response to claim: Numbers 21:5-9]]
 
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<!-- *[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions#Judges 19:22-29|Response to claim: Judges 19:22-29]] {{InProgress}} -->
 
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*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions#"I’m asked to believe in not only a part-time racist god and a part-time polygamous god but a part-time psychopathic schizophrenic one as well"|Response to section: "I’m asked to believe in not only a part-time racist god and a part-time polygamous god but a part-time psychopathic schizophrenic one as well"]]
 
  
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<!--
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==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...human sacrifice"==
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====D&C 132====
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{{IndexClaimItemShort
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{{CESLetterItem
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|title=Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision)
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|claim=The author states, "I’m supposed to believe in a god who issued an FLDS style revelation that states stuff like: the only form of polygamy permitted is a union with a virgin after first giving the opportunity to the first wife to consent to the marriage. If the first wife doesn’t consent, the husband is exempt and may still take an additional wife, but the first wife must at least have the opportunity to consent. In case the first wife doesn’t consent, she will be “destroyed”.  Also, the new wife must be a virgin before the marriage and be completely monogamous after the marriage or she will be destroyed."
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|claim=To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...human sacrifice
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}}
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{{propaganda| The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.
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|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
 
}}
 
}}
  
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====Numbers 31====
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'''Longer response(s) to question:'''
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{{CESLetterItem
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*[[Question: Does the Bible endorse human sacrifice?]]
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|claim=The author states the following regarding Numbers 31:<br>
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{{Back to top}}
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"This is truly despicable behavior from God and Moses.  Under God’s direction, Moses’ army defeats the Midianites.  They kill all the adult males, but take the women and children captive.  When Moses learns that they left some alive, he angrily says:  “Have you saved all the women alive?  Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.  But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”  So they went back and did as Moses – the Lord’s prophet – commanded, killing everyone except for the virgins. In this way, they got 32,000 virgins."
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|answer=
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==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...child abuse"==
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*The story of the Moses and the Midianites sounds horrific. However, there appears to be a reason why Moses commanded that they be killed. There are indications that Moses viewed the Midianites as being responsible for a plague which was caused by having sexual relations with those individuals ("the matter of Peor"). Note how Moses issued extensive instructions for the purification of anyone or ''anything'' coming into contact with these people. The following verses from Numbers 31:
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{{IndexClaimItemShort
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<blockquote>
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|title=Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision)
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15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
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|claim=To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...child abuse
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<br><br>
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}}
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16 <span style="color:blue">Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.</span>
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{{propaganda| The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.
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<br><br>
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|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
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17 <span style="color:blue">Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.</span>
 
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<br><br>
 
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18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
 
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<br><br>
 
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19 <span style="color:blue">And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day.</span>
 
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<br><br>
 
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20 <span style="color:blue">And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats’ hair, and all things made of wood.</span>
 
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<br><br>
 
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21 ¶And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord commanded Moses;
 
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<br><br>
 
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22 Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead,
 
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<br><br>
 
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23 <span style="color:blue">Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water.</span>
 
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<br><br>
 
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24 <span style="color:blue">And ye shall wash your clothes on the seventh day, and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp.</span>
 
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</blockquote>
 
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*Regarding "the matter of Peor," here is what the Wikipedia article "Hersay of Peor" states regarding the plague:
 
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<blockquote>
 
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According to the Torah, the Israelites, after spending a short time in the plain of Moab, <span style="color:blue">begin to involve themselves with the Moabite women.</span> Consequently, under the influence of Moabite culture, the Israelites begin whoring after the Moabite gods, and join themselves to Baal Peor (Hebrew בעל פעור Ba‘al Pə‘ôr), in the Septuagint Beelphegôr, a baal associated with Mount Pe‘or.
 
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<br><br>
 
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YHWH orders Moses to gather the chiefs of the people and hang up the idolaters before Yahweh to turn away Yahweh's anger. The scene then abruptly shifts from concerns about Moabites to those about Midianites. A man — Israelite Zimri, the son of Salu — <span style="color:blue">brings a Midianite woman Cozbi into the camp in the sight of Moses, where the people are weeping. Phinehas, grandson of Aaron, thereupon rises up with a spear, follows the man into the chamber and thrusts the spear through both the man and woman, who were evidently in the act of copulation. The plague, from which 24,000 had died, then ceased to take life.</span> A war with Midian follows later. {{link|url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy_of_Peor}}
 
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</blockquote>
 
 
}}
 
}}
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-->
 
  
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=="that Laban would send his servants after Nephi and his brothers is ridiculous considering that the same God who had no problem lighting stones and taming swarms of bees"==
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'''Longer response(s) to question:'''
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{{CESLetterItemShort
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*[[Question: Do the scriptures endorse child abuse?]]
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{{Back to top}}
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 +
==Response to claim: "that Laban would send his servants after Nephi and his brothers is ridiculous considering that the same God who had no problem lighting stones and taming swarms of bees"==
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{{IndexClaimItemShort
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|title=Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision)
 
|claim=The Lord commands Nephi to murder (decapitate) Laban for the brass plates.  Never mind that Laban was drunk and defenseless.  The argument that Laban would send his servants after Nephi and his brothers is ridiculous considering that the same God who had no problem lighting stones and taming swarms of bees (Ether 2-3) for the Brother of Jared can also preserve Nephi.
 
|claim=The Lord commands Nephi to murder (decapitate) Laban for the brass plates.  Never mind that Laban was drunk and defenseless.  The argument that Laban would send his servants after Nephi and his brothers is ridiculous considering that the same God who had no problem lighting stones and taming swarms of bees (Ether 2-3) for the Brother of Jared can also preserve Nephi.
 
}}
 
}}
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{{:Book of Mormon/Nephi's killing of Laban/Was it "cold blooded murder"}}
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{{propaganda|The author trivializes the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.
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|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
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}}
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{{appeal to ridicule}}
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'''Longer response(s) to question:'''
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*[[Jeffery R. Holland: "It is wrong to assume that Nephi in any way wished to take Laban’s life"]]
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*[[Question: Did Nephi commit "cold blooded murder" when he killed Laban?]]
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*[[Question: Why didn't God simply preserve Nephi's life using divine power instead of requiring him to kill Laban?]]
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{{Back to top}}
  
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=="God kills all the firstborn children in Egypt except for those who put blood on their doors?"==
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==Response to claim: "God kills all the firstborn children in Egypt except for those who put blood on their doors?"==
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{{CESLetterItemShort
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{{IndexClaimItemShort
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|claim=God kills all the firstborn children in Egypt except for those who put blood on their doors?  What kind of a god is this?  Like the flood, what kind of a loving god would kill innocent children for the actions of others?
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|title=Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision)
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|claim=4. Exodus 12:12
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God kills all the firstborn children in Egypt except for those who put blood on their doors?  What kind of a god is this?  Like the flood, what kind of a loving god would kill innocent children for the actions of others?
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}}
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{{propaganda|
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|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
 
}}
 
}}
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{{:Mormonism and the nature of God/Theodicy/Death of innocents}}
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{{appeal to emotion}}
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'''Longer response(s) to question:'''
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*[[Question: Why would a loving God would kill innocent children in the flood of Noah's day?]]
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*[[Question: Why would a loving God kill the firstborn of Egypt?]]
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*[[Joseph Fielding Smith: "This was also in the similitude of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ"]]
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{{Back to top}}
  
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==Deuteronomy 21:18-21==
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==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...stoning disobedient children...killing people who worked on the Sabbath, death penalty for those that mixed cotton with polyester...Got a rebellious kid who doesn’t listen? Take him to the elders and to the end of the gates and stone him to death!"==
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{{CESLetterItem
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{{IndexClaimItemShort
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|claim=The author writes, "Got a rebellious kid who doesn’t listen? Take him to the elders and to the end of the gates and stone him to death!"
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|title=Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision)
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|answer=
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|claim=To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...stoning disobedient children...killing people who worked on the Sabbath, death penalty for those that mixed cotton with polyester...Got a rebellious kid who doesn’t listen? Take him to the elders and to the end of the gates and stone him to death!
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*{{antispeak|shrill}}
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}}
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*{{Answer}} The Law of Moses was a very strict law that was designed to teach the Children of Israel obedience. It was indeed quite harsh when compared to our modern standards, although one can still find equally harsh penalties in some parts of the world among certain cultures. When Jesus Christ came to earth, He fulfilled the Law of Moses. The author's point seems to be that a kind and loving God would not ever condone such things. However, God reminds us that his ways are not our ways in {{s||Isaiah|55|8-9}}:
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{{propaganda|We should understand the bible in context and as a whole to grasp a fuller and more enlightening picture.
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<blockquote>
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|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
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For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.<br>
 
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For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
 
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</blockquote>
 
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*{{Fact}} The following were defined as crimes worthy of capital punishment under the Mosaic Law:
 
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#Murder (Exodus 21:12-14)
 
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#Striking your parents (Exodus 21:15)
 
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#Kidnapping (Exodus 21:16)
 
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#Cursing your parents (Exodus 21:17)
 
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#Bestiality (Exodus 22:19)
 
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#Divination (Exodus 22:18)
 
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#Sacrificing to false gods (Exodus 22:20)
 
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#Violating the Sabbath (Exodus 35:2)
 
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#Rebelliousness (Deuteronomy 17:12)
 
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#Incest (Leviticus 18:6-17)
 
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#Homosexuality (Leviticus 18:22)
 
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#Human sacrifice (Leviticus 20:2)
 
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#Adultery (Leviticus 20:10-21)
 
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#Premarital sex (Leviticus 21:9)
 
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#Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16,23)
 
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#False prophecy (Deuteronomy 13:1-11)
 
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#Rape (Deuteronomy 22:25-27)
 
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|quote=
 
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*From the The ''JPS Torah Commentary: Deuteronomy'':
 
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<blockquote>
 
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Verses 18–21 describe the procedure to be followed if a son is repeatedly insubordinate and his parents conclude that there is no hope of reforming him: they are to bring him before the town elders who will hear the case and, if they agree, order his execution. The law seeks to deter filial insubordination, but, by requiring that the case be judged by the elders, it also places limits on parental authority, as does the preceding law. Earlier, in the patriarchal period, it appears that the father’s authority over his children was absolute, like the patria potestas of early Roman law, even to the point of his being able to have them executed for wrongdoing; this is implied by Judah’s ability to order the execution of his daughter-in-law for adultery, with no trial (Gen. 38:24). The present law respects the parents’ right to discipline their son, but it prevents them from having him executed on their own authority. This may only be done by the community at large on the authority of the elders.
 
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<br><br>
 
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<span style="color:blue">Ancient Near Eastern laws and documents also mention legal action by parents against misbehaving children. The grounds include such offenses against parents as disobedience, flight, repudiation, lawsuits against them, failure to respect and provide for them in their old age, and striking them. The punishments range from disinheritance to enslavement and mutilation.</span>
 
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<br><br>
 
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<span style="color:blue">Filial insubordination is a grave offense because respect and obedience toward parents is regarded as the cornerstone of all order and authority, especially in a tribal, patriarchal society like ancient Israel. If the death penalty specified by the present law is meant literally, it implies that biblical law regards insubordination and the danger it poses to the stability of society more severely than do other known ancient Near Eastern laws. The fact that Exodus 21:15 requires the death penalty for striking one’s parents, whereas the Laws of Hammurabi require only that the son’s hand be cut off, supports this inference.</span> Nevertheless, some scholars, modern and ancient, believe that the death penalty stipulated in the present law is meant only rhetorically, in terrorem, to strengthen parental authority and deter the young from disobedience. As in the case of the apostate city (13:13–19), halakhic exegesis subjected the law to an exceedingly narrow reading, according to which it could hardly ever be carried out. Several rabbis held that it was never actually applied, but was stated in the Torah only for educational purposes.
 
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</blockquote>
 
 
}}
 
}}
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{{appeal to ridicule}}
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<!--
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'''Longer response(s) to question:'''
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==Exodus 35:1-2==
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*[[Question: Why are Old Testament penalties for disobedience so harsh?]]
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{{CESLetterItem
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*[[JPS Torah Commentary: Deuteronomy: "Filial insubordination is a grave offense because respect and obedience toward parents is regarded as the cornerstone of all order and authority"]]
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|summary=The author states, "God commands death penalty for those who work on the Sabbath trying to support their families."
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==Numbers 21:5-9==
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==Response to claim: "1. D&C 132"==
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{{CESLetterItem
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{{IndexClaimItemShort
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|claim=The author writes, "God doesn’t like to hear whining and ingratitude so he sends out a bunch of snakes to kill the people. When the people had enough of the snakes, they ask Moses to tell God to quit it.  God decides Moses is persuasive and tells Moses to put a snake a pole and tell the people to look at the pole and they won’t die.  So, the pole is built, the people look at it and they don’t die.  The moral of the story?  Don’t whine or God will send in the snakes." (Number 21:5-9: )
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|title=Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision)
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|answer=
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|claim=D&C 132:  I’m supposed to believe in a god who issued an FLDS style revelation that states stuff like: the only form of polygamy permitted is a union with a virgin after first giving the opportunity to the first wife to consent to the marriage. If the first wife doesn’t consent, the husband is exempt and may still take an additional wife, but the first wife must at least have the opportunity to consent. In case the first wife doesn’t consent, she will be “destroyed.” Also, the new wife must be a virgin before the marriage and be completely monogamous after the marriage or she will be destroyed
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*{{antispeak|mocking}}
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}}
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*{{Answer}} The moral of the story is that one who looks upon Christ will be saved from spiritual death, not "don't complain or God will kill you." The sarcastic version of the story offered by the author robs it of any coherent meaning. The snake on the pole is a representation of Christ and the atonement. Those that simply looked at it were saved from physical death. Those that look upon and accept Christ are saved from spiritual death. What is amazing is that there were people who simply wouldn't look at it, despite how easy it would have been to do so. They simply refused to believe.
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{{propaganda|Although it has been addressed elsewhere, it may be good to place responses to this claim here. The author distorts the scriptural intent. Claims of being "destroyed" are overdone. There is a possibility that the wife didn't have to be a virgin as the author claims v. 63 stipulates earlier on in the CES Letter under Concerns & Questions about Polygamy.
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{{s||Numbers|21|8}}
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|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
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<blockquote>
 
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8 And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
 
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'''Longer response(s) to question:'''
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==Judges 19:22-29==
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*[[Question: Was Emma was promised "annihilation" if she didn't accept plural marriage?]]
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{{CESLetterItem
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*[[Question: Was the only purpose of polygamy to "multiply and replenish the earth" and "bear the souls of men"?]]
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|summary=The author states, "After picking up his concubine from his father-in-law’s house, a certain Levite settles in Gibeah for the night. The men of the city attempt to sodomize him, but end up raping the concubine until her death. As a response, the Levite dismembers his wife’s corpse and sends her body parts throughout the land of Israel. Who needs R or X-rated movies when you got scripture like this?"
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==Response to claim: "I’m asked to believe in not only a part-time racist god and a part-time polygamous god but a part-time psychopathic schizophrenic one as well"==
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{{IndexClaimItemShort
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|title=Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision)
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|claim=God doesn’t like to hear whining and ingratitude so he sends out a bunch of snakes to kill the people. When the people had enough of the snakes, they ask Moses to tell God to quit it.  God decides Moses is persuasive and tells Moses to put a snake a pole and tell the people to look at the pole and they won’t die.  So, the pole is built, the people look at it and they don’t die.  The moral of the story? Don’t whine or God will send in the snakes. (Numbers 21:5-9: )<br>....<br>
 +
I’m asked to believe in not only a part-time racist god and a part-time polygamous god but a part-time psychopathic schizophrenic one as well.
 +
}}
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{{propaganda|The author trivializes the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.
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|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
 
}}
 
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{{appeal to emotion}}
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{{appeal to ridicule}}
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'''Longer response(s) to question:'''
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*[[Elder Jeffery R. Holland: "it is a characteristic of our age that if people want any gods at all, they want them to be gods who do not demand much"]]
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*[[Question: Why would God send poisonous serpents to kill the Children of Israel?]]
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*[[Question: Do Latter-day Saints believe in a "part-time racist" and "psychopathic schizophrenic" god?]]
  
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=="I’m asked to believe in not only a part-time racist god and a part-time polygamous god but a part-time psychopathic schizophrenic one as well"==
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{{FAIRAnalysisHeader
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{{CESLetterItem
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|title=[[../|Letter to a CES Director]]
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|author=Jeremy Runnells
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|answer=
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*{{antispeak|mocking}} Latter-day Saints do ''not'' believe in a "part-time racist," "psychopathic schizophrenic" god.
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|section=Scriptures Concerns & Questions
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*{{Answer}} Some Latter-day Saints believe that God has more than one wife, and some do not. There is no official Church position on this subject.
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|previous=[[../Science Concerns & Questions|Science Concerns & Questions]]
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|next=[[../Other Concerns & Questions|Other Concerns & Questions]]
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|notes=
 
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[[Category:Letter to a CES Director]]
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[[es:La crítica del mormonismo/Documentos en línea/Carta a un Director del SEI/Inquietudes y Preguntas de las Escrituras]]
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[[pt:A crítica do mormonismo/Documentos online/Carta a um Diretor SEI/Escrituras - preocupações e perguntas]]

Latest revision as of 14:21, 13 April 2024

Contents

Detailed response to CES Letter, Scriptures



[[../Science Concerns & Questions|Science Concerns & Questions]]
A FAIR Analysis of: [[../|Letter to a CES Director]], a work by author: Jeremy Runnells
 		[[../Other Concerns & Questions|Other Concerns & Questions]]
Chart CES Letter scriptures.png

Response to section "Scriptures Concerns & Questions"

Summary: The author states that "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed murder, genocide, infanticide, rape, slavery, selling daughters into sex slavery, polygamy, child abuse, stoning disobedient children, pillage, plunder, sexism, racism, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, killing people who work on the Sabbath, death penalty for those who mix cotton with polyester, and so on."


Jump to details:

Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed..."

The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:

To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...

[…]

As a believing Mormon, I tried to rationalize some of the craziness by saying, “Oh, this is in the crazy Old Testament when the Law of Moses was in force. Christ came and fulfilled the Law of Moses.”

The problem with this is that the crazy god of the Old Testament was Jehovah. Who’s Jehovah? The premortal Jesus Christ. So, Christ is the crazy god of the Old Testament. The Christ of the Old Testament and the Christ of the New Testament are light years different.

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

The author has many concerns about the scriptures. None of the things listed are "endorsed" by God. There are several things that can be misunderstood about the scriptures that can cause concern without a proper framework to view them through. Without it, it is easy to be bogged down by how critics misrepresent and misunderstand the scriptures. At the beginning of this section from the author, we give a suggested hermeneutic for viewing these things from the scriptures. It can show a unified purpose to some of that "craziness" in the Bible.


Longer response(s) to question:

Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed murder, genocide...pillage, plunder...2. Numbers 31...3. 1 Nephi 4...7. Numbers 21: 5-9"

The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:

To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed murder, genocide...pillage, plunder...2. Numbers 31...3. 1 Nephi 4...4. Exodus 12:12...7. Numbers 21: 5-9...

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

These are hard scriptures to understand. These are addressed in articles or articles linked to those articles below.


Longer response(s) to question:

Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...rape...selling daughters into sex slavery, polygamy...sexism...8. Judges 19:22-29"

The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:

To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...rape...selling daughters into sex slavery, polygamy...sexism...8. Judges 19:22-29

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.


Longer response(s) to question:

Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...slavery"

The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:

"To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...slavery"

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.


Longer response(s) to question:

Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...racism"

The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:

To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...racism

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.


Longer response(s) to question:

Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...human sacrifice"

The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:

To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...human sacrifice

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.


Longer response(s) to question:

Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...child abuse"

The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:

To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...child abuse

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.


Longer response(s) to question:

Response to claim: "that Laban would send his servants after Nephi and his brothers is ridiculous considering that the same God who had no problem lighting stones and taming swarms of bees"

The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:

The Lord commands Nephi to murder (decapitate) Laban for the brass plates. Never mind that Laban was drunk and defenseless. The argument that Laban would send his servants after Nephi and his brothers is ridiculous considering that the same God who had no problem lighting stones and taming swarms of bees (Ether 2-3) for the Brother of Jared can also preserve Nephi.

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

The author trivializes the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.

Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Ridicule—The author is presenting the argument in such a way that it makes his or her subject look ridiculous, usually by misrepresenting the argument or exaggerating it.


Longer response(s) to question:

Response to claim: "God kills all the firstborn children in Egypt except for those who put blood on their doors?"

The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:

4. Exodus 12:12 God kills all the firstborn children in Egypt except for those who put blood on their doors? What kind of a god is this? Like the flood, what kind of a loving god would kill innocent children for the actions of others?

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Emotion—The author attempts to manipulate the reader's emotional response instead of presenting a valid argument.


Longer response(s) to question:

Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...stoning disobedient children...killing people who worked on the Sabbath, death penalty for those that mixed cotton with polyester...Got a rebellious kid who doesn’t listen? Take him to the elders and to the end of the gates and stone him to death!"

The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:

To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...stoning disobedient children...killing people who worked on the Sabbath, death penalty for those that mixed cotton with polyester...Got a rebellious kid who doesn’t listen? Take him to the elders and to the end of the gates and stone him to death!

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

We should understand the bible in context and as a whole to grasp a fuller and more enlightening picture.

Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Ridicule—The author is presenting the argument in such a way that it makes his or her subject look ridiculous, usually by misrepresenting the argument or exaggerating it.


Longer response(s) to question:

Response to claim: "1. D&C 132"

The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:

D&C 132: I’m supposed to believe in a god who issued an FLDS style revelation that states stuff like: the only form of polygamy permitted is a union with a virgin after first giving the opportunity to the first wife to consent to the marriage. If the first wife doesn’t consent, the husband is exempt and may still take an additional wife, but the first wife must at least have the opportunity to consent. In case the first wife doesn’t consent, she will be “destroyed.” Also, the new wife must be a virgin before the marriage and be completely monogamous after the marriage or she will be destroyed

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

Although it has been addressed elsewhere, it may be good to place responses to this claim here. The author distorts the scriptural intent. Claims of being "destroyed" are overdone. There is a possibility that the wife didn't have to be a virgin as the author claims v. 63 stipulates earlier on in the CES Letter under Concerns & Questions about Polygamy.


Longer response(s) to question:

Response to claim: "I’m asked to believe in not only a part-time racist god and a part-time polygamous god but a part-time psychopathic schizophrenic one as well"

The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:

God doesn’t like to hear whining and ingratitude so he sends out a bunch of snakes to kill the people. When the people had enough of the snakes, they ask Moses to tell God to quit it. God decides Moses is persuasive and tells Moses to put a snake a pole and tell the people to look at the pole and they won’t die. So, the pole is built, the people look at it and they don’t die. The moral of the story? Don’t whine or God will send in the snakes. (Numbers 21:5-9: )
....
I’m asked to believe in not only a part-time racist god and a part-time polygamous god but a part-time psychopathic schizophrenic one as well.

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

The author trivializes the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.

Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Emotion—The author attempts to manipulate the reader's emotional response instead of presenting a valid argument.

Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Ridicule—The author is presenting the argument in such a way that it makes his or her subject look ridiculous, usually by misrepresenting the argument or exaggerating it.


Longer response(s) to question:


[[../Science Concerns & Questions|Science Concerns & Questions]]
A FAIR Analysis of:
[[../|Letter to a CES Director]]
A work by author: Jeremy Runnells
 [[../Other Concerns & Questions|Other Concerns & Questions]]
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