Mormonism and Wikipedia/Golden plates/Sealed portion - Revision history

GregSmith: /* Response to claim: "the 'interpreters' (Urim and Thummim) with which Smith said they were buried or 'sealed'" */bot use legacy Detail template

2024-05-31T07:04:59Z

Response to claim: "the 'interpreters' (Urim and Thummim) with which Smith said they were buried or 'sealed'": bot use legacy Detail template

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	*{{WikipediaOR\|editor=COgden\|wikipedialink=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Golden_plates&diff=101898151&oldid=101882661}}Wikipedia editors are not supposed to directly interpret primary sources. To draw a conclusion and say that something is "supported by a reference" in the Book of Mormon violates this.		*{{WikipediaOR\|editor=COgden\|wikipedialink=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Golden_plates&diff=101898151&oldid=101882661}}Wikipedia editors are not supposed to directly interpret primary sources. To draw a conclusion and say that something is "supported by a reference" in the Book of Mormon violates this.
	*{{WikipediaCITE\|editor=COgden\|wikipedialink=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Golden_plates&diff=101898151&oldid=101882661}}Harris' statement is tangential and has nothing whatsoever to do with a portion of the plates being sealed.		*{{WikipediaCITE\|editor=COgden\|wikipedialink=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Golden_plates&diff=101898151&oldid=101882661}}Harris' statement is tangential and has nothing whatsoever to do with a portion of the plates being sealed.
	*{{~~Detail~~\|Book of Mormon/Witnesses/Viewing gold plates would result in death}}		*{{Detail_old\|Book of Mormon/Witnesses/Viewing gold plates would result in death}}
	}}		}}

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	Smith never described the nature of the seal, and the language of the [[Book of Mormon]] may be interpreted to describe a sealing that was spiritual, metaphorical,		Smith never described the nature of the seal, and the language of the [[Book of Mormon]] may be interpreted to describe a sealing that was spiritual, metaphorical,
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*i.e. that the book was "sealed" in the sense that its contents were hidden or kept from public knowledge		#i.e. that the book was "sealed" in the sense that its contents were hidden or kept from public knowledge
	}}		}}
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	The Book of Mormon refers to other documents and plates as being "sealed" to be revealed at some future time. For example, the [[Book of Mormon]] says the entire set of plates was "sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord"		The Book of Mormon refers to other documents and plates as being "sealed" to be revealed at some future time. For example, the [[Book of Mormon]] says the entire set of plates was "sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord"
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*{{Harv\|Smith\|1830\|loc=title page}}		#{{Harv\|Smith\|1830\|loc=title page}}
	}}		}}
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	and that separate records of [[John the Apostle]] were "sealed up to come forth in their purity" in the [[end times]].		and that separate records of [[John the Apostle]] were "sealed up to come forth in their purity" in the [[end times]].
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*''Book of Mormon'', 1 Nephi 14:26		#''Book of Mormon'', 1 Nephi 14:26
	}}		}}
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	One set of plates to which the Book of Mormon refers was "sealed up" in the sense that they were written in a language that could not be read.		One set of plates to which the Book of Mormon refers was "sealed up" in the sense that they were written in a language that could not be read.
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*Book of Mormon, Ether 3:22.		#Book of Mormon, Ether 3:22.
	}}		}}
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	Smith may have understood the sealing to be a [[supernatural]] or spiritual sealing "by the power of God" (2 Nephi 27:10),		Smith may have understood the sealing to be a [[supernatural]] or spiritual sealing "by the power of God" (2 Nephi 27:10),
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*{{Harvtxt\|Quinn\|1998\|pp=195–196}}.		#{{Harvtxt\|Quinn\|1998\|pp=195–196}}.
	}}		}}
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	an idea supported by a reference in the Book of Mormon to the "interpreters" ([[Seer stones and the Latter Day Saint movement\|Urim and Thummim]]) with which Smith said they were buried or "sealed."		an idea supported by a reference in the Book of Mormon to the "interpreters" ([[Seer stones and the Latter Day Saint movement\|Urim and Thummim]]) with which Smith said they were buried or "sealed."
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*Book of Mormon, Ether 4:5. According to [[Martin Harris (Latter Day Saints)\|Martin Harris]], anyone who looked into the "interpreters", "except by the command of God", would "perish" {{Harv\|Harris\|1859\|p=166}}.		#Book of Mormon, Ether 4:5. According to [[Martin Harris (Latter Day Saints)\|Martin Harris]], anyone who looked into the "interpreters", "except by the command of God", would "perish" {{Harv\|Harris\|1859\|p=166}}.
	}}		}}
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	Oliver Cowdery also stated that when Smith visited the hill, he was stricken by a supernatural force because the plates were "sealed by the prayer of faith."		Oliver Cowdery also stated that when Smith visited the hill, he was stricken by a supernatural force because the plates were "sealed by the prayer of faith."
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*{{Harvtxt\|Cowdery\|1835b\|p=198}}.		#{{Harvtxt\|Cowdery\|1835b\|p=198}}.
	}}		}}
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	Several witnesses described a physical sealing placed on part of the plates by Mormon or Moroni. [[David Whitmer]] said that when an angel showed him the plates in 1829, "a large portion of the leaves were so securely bound together that it was impossible to separate them,"		Several witnesses described a physical sealing placed on part of the plates by Mormon or Moroni. [[David Whitmer]] said that when an angel showed him the plates in 1829, "a large portion of the leaves were so securely bound together that it was impossible to separate them,"
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*David Whitmer interview, Chicago Tribune, 24 January 1888, in David Whitmer Interviews, ed. Cook, 221. Near the end of his life, Whitmer said that one section of the book was "loose, in plates, the other solid". {{Harvtxt\|Storey\|1881}}.		#David Whitmer interview, Chicago Tribune, 24 January 1888, in David Whitmer Interviews, ed. Cook, 221. Near the end of his life, Whitmer said that one section of the book was "loose, in plates, the other solid". {{Harvtxt\|Storey\|1881}}.
	}}		}}
	{{information\|Finally, after all of the various and sundry descriptions of the word "sealed" given above, the wiki editors finally reach the point at which they report what witnesses actually said—that a number of the plates were bound together in a manner that would not allow them to be read.		{{information\|Finally, after all of the various and sundry descriptions of the word "sealed" given above, the wiki editors finally reach the point at which they report what witnesses actually said—that a number of the plates were bound together in a manner that would not allow them to be read.
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	that the "sealed" part of the plates were held together as a solid mass "stationary and immovable,"		that the "sealed" part of the plates were held together as a solid mass "stationary and immovable,"
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*{{Harvtxt\|Cole\|1831}}		#{{Harvtxt\|Cole\|1831}}
	}}		}}
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	"as solid to my view as wood,"		"as solid to my view as wood,"
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*{{Harvtxt\|Poulson\|1878}}.		#{{Harvtxt\|Poulson\|1878}}.
	}}		}}
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	and that there were "perceptible marks where the plates appeared to be sealed"		and that there were "perceptible marks where the plates appeared to be sealed"
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*{{Harvtxt\|Storey\|1881}}		#{{Harvtxt\|Storey\|1881}}
	}}		}}
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	with leaves "so securely bound that it was impossible to separate them."		with leaves "so securely bound that it was impossible to separate them."
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*{{Harvtxt\|Whitmer\|1888}}. [[Orson Pratt]], who said he had spoken with many witnesses of the plates,{{Harv\|Pratt\|1859\|p=30}}, assumed that Joseph Smith could "break the seal" if only he had been "permitted" {{Harv\|Pratt\|1877\|pp=211–12}}.		#{{Harvtxt\|Whitmer\|1888}}. [[Orson Pratt]], who said he had spoken with many witnesses of the plates,{{Harv\|Pratt\|1859\|p=30}}, assumed that Joseph Smith could "break the seal" if only he had been "permitted" {{Harv\|Pratt\|1877\|pp=211–12}}.
	}}		}}
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	In 1842, [[Lucy Mack Smith]] said that some of the plates were "sealed together" while others were "loose."		In 1842, [[Lucy Mack Smith]] said that some of the plates were "sealed together" while others were "loose."
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*{{Harvtxt\|Smith\|1842b\|p=27}}.		#{{Harvtxt\|Smith\|1842b\|p=27}}.
	}}		}}
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	The account of the [[Eight Witnesses]] says they saw the plates in 1829 and handled "as many of the leaves as [Joseph] Smith has translated," implying that they did not examine untranslated parts, such as the sealed portion.		The account of the [[Eight Witnesses]] says they saw the plates in 1829 and handled "as many of the leaves as [Joseph] Smith has translated," implying that they did not examine untranslated parts, such as the sealed portion.
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*{{Harvtxt\|Smith\|1830\|loc=appx}}		#{{Harvtxt\|Smith\|1830\|loc=appx}}
	}}		}}
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	In one interview, David Whitmer said that "about half" the book was unsealed; in 1881, he said "about one-third" was unsealed.		In one interview, David Whitmer said that "about half" the book was unsealed; in 1881, he said "about one-third" was unsealed.
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*{{Harvtxt\|Cole\|1831}}; {{Harvtxt\|Poulson\|1878}}		#{{Harvtxt\|Cole\|1831}}; {{Harvtxt\|Poulson\|1878}}
	*{{Harvtxt\|Storey\|1881}}		*{{Harvtxt\|Storey\|1881}}
	}}		}}
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	Whitmer's 1881 statement is consistent with an 1856 statement by [[Orson Pratt]], an associate of Smith's who never saw the plates himself but who had spoken with witnesses,		Whitmer's 1881 statement is consistent with an 1856 statement by [[Orson Pratt]], an associate of Smith's who never saw the plates himself but who had spoken with witnesses,
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*{{Harvtxt\|Pratt\|1859\|p=30}}.		#{{Harvtxt\|Pratt\|1859\|p=30}}.
	}}		}}
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	that "about two-thirds" of the plates were "sealed up".		that "about two-thirds" of the plates were "sealed up".
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*{{Harvtxt\|Pratt\|1856\|p=347}}.		#{{Harvtxt\|Pratt\|1856\|p=347}}.
	}}		}}
	{{information\|Orson Pratt said:		{{information\|Orson Pratt said:

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RogerNicholson at 04:34, 28 August 2017

2017-08-28T04:34:42Z

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	\|L13=Response to claim: "'as solid to my view as wood'"		\|L13=Response to claim: "'as solid to my view as wood'"
	\|L14=Response to claim: "there were 'perceptible marks where the plates appeared to be sealed'"		\|L14=Response to claim: "there were 'perceptible marks where the plates appeared to be sealed'"
	L15=Response to claim: "with leaves "so securely bound that it was impossible to separate them"		\|L15=Response to claim: "with leaves "so securely bound that it was impossible to separate them"
	\|L16=Response to claim: "Lucy Mack Smith said that some of the plates were 'sealed together'"		\|L16=Response to claim: "Lucy Mack Smith said that some of the plates were 'sealed together'"
	\|L17=Response to claim: "The account of the Eight Witnesses says they saw the plates in 1829...implying that they did not examine untranslated parts, such as the sealed portion"		\|L17=Response to claim: "The account of the Eight Witnesses says they saw the plates in 1829...implying that they did not examine untranslated parts, such as the sealed portion"

RogerNicholson at 04:34, 28 August 2017

2017-08-28T04:34:25Z

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RogerNicholson at 05:38, 26 August 2017

2017-08-26T05:38:19Z

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RogerNicholson at 03:07, 11 August 2017

2017-08-11T03:07:25Z

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	</onlyinclude>		</onlyinclude>
	=={{WikipediaUpdate\|9/21/2011}}==		=={{WikipediaUpdate\|9/21/2011}}==
	~~==Reviews of previous revisions of this section==~~
	~~{{SummaryItem~~
	~~\|link=/December 2009~~
	~~\|subject=December 2009~~
	~~\|summary=A review of this section as it appeared in Wikipedia in December 2009.~~
	}}

	==Section review==		==Section review==

RogerNicholson at 02:56, 11 August 2017

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	~~__NOTOC__~~		{{H1
	{{~~FAIRAnalysisWikipedia~~		\|L=Mormonism and Wikipedia/Golden plates/Sealed portion
	\|~~title~~=~~[[..~~/]]		\|H=An analysis of claims made in the Wikipedia article "Golden plates" - "Sealed" portion
	\|~~wikipedialink~~=~~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_plates~~		\|T=Wikipedia article "Golden plates"
	\|~~uplink~~=~~[[../\|~~Golden plates]]		\|A=Various
	\|~~section~~=~~"Sealed portion"~~		\|<=[[../Composition and weight\|Described composition and weight]]
	\|~~previous~~=[[../Composition and weight\|Described composition and weight]]		\|>=[[../Claimed engravings\|Claimed engravings]]
	\|~~next~~=[[../Claimed engravings\|Claimed engravings]]
	~~\|notes={{WikipediaDisclaimer}}~~
	}}		}}
			<!-- INSERT CHART HERE -->
	=An analysis of the Wikipedia article "Golden plates" {{WikipediaUpdate\|9/21/2011}}=		<onlyinclude>
			{{H2
			\|L=Mormonism and Wikipedia/Golden plates/Sealed portion
			\|H=An analysis of claims made in the Wikipedia article "Golden plates" - "Sealed" portion
			\|S=
			\|L1=
			}}
			</onlyinclude>
			=={{WikipediaUpdate\|9/21/2011}}==
	==Reviews of previous revisions of this section==		==Reviews of previous revisions of this section==
	{{SummaryItem		{{SummaryItem

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Mormonism and Wikipedia/Golden plates/Sealed portion - Revision history

GregSmith: /* Response to claim: "the 'interpreters' (Urim and Thummim) with which Smith said they were buried or 'sealed'" */bot use legacy Detail template

GregSmith: /* top */Bot replace {{FairMormon}} with {{Main Page}} and remove extra lines around {{Header}}

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RogerNicholson at 04:34, 28 August 2017

RogerNicholson at 04:34, 28 August 2017

RogerNicholson at 05:38, 26 August 2017

RogerNicholson at 03:07, 11 August 2017

RogerNicholson at 02:56, 11 August 2017

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