Mormonism and Wikipedia/Golden plates/Origin and historicity - Revision history

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	Nevertheless, the golden plates were reportedly shown to [[Book of Mormon witnesses\|several close associates]] of Joseph Smith,		Nevertheless, the golden plates were reportedly shown to [[Book of Mormon witnesses\|several close associates]] of Joseph Smith,
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*Only close associates of Joseph Smith were allowed to become official witnesses to the plates; he invited no strangers, or women, to view them. These witnesses, first a group of three, Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, and David Whitmer, and then a group of eight—five members of the Whitmer family, Joseph Smith's father, and two of his brothers, Hyrum and Samuel—all said they "saw and hefted" the plates. See Jan Shipps, "Mormonism: The Story of a New Religious Tradition," University of Illinois Press, pp. 23.		#Only close associates of Joseph Smith were allowed to become official witnesses to the plates; he invited no strangers, or women, to view them. These witnesses, first a group of three, Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, and David Whitmer, and then a group of eight—five members of the Whitmer family, Joseph Smith's father, and two of his brothers, Hyrum and Samuel—all said they "saw and hefted" the plates. See Jan Shipps, "Mormonism: The Story of a New Religious Tradition," University of Illinois Press, pp. 23.
	}}		}}
	{{information\|It is interesting to note the emphasis on the closeness of the witnesses to Joseph Smith. The witnesses were allowed to ''be'' witnesses ''because'' they believed.}}		{{information\|It is interesting to note the emphasis on the closeness of the witnesses to Joseph Smith. The witnesses were allowed to ''be'' witnesses ''because'' they believed.}}
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	and the [[Book of Mormon]] exists as its reputed translation. Thus, Mormon apologists and Mormon critics can debate indirect evidence only: they may ask whether the [[Book of Mormon]] narrative is consistent with science and history and whether its witnesses are credible.		and the [[Book of Mormon]] exists as its reputed translation. Thus, Mormon apologists and Mormon critics can debate indirect evidence only: they may ask whether the [[Book of Mormon]] narrative is consistent with science and history and whether its witnesses are credible.
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*See generally {{Harvtxt\|Metcalfe\|1993}}, which outlines the main arguments for and against Book of Mormon authenticity.		#See generally {{Harvtxt\|Metcalfe\|1993}}, which outlines the main arguments for and against Book of Mormon authenticity.
	}}		}}
	{{WikipediaNPOV}}		{{WikipediaNPOV}}
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	The [[Book of Mormon]] itself portrays the golden plates as a historical record, engraved by two [[pre-Columbian]] prophet-historians from around the year AD 400: [[Mormon (prophet)\|Mormon]] and his son [[Moroni (Book of Mormon prophet)\|Moroni]]. Mormon and Moroni, the book says, had abridged earlier historical records from other sets of metal plates. Their script, according to the book, was described as "[[reformed Egyptian]]," a language unknown to linguists or Egyptologists.		The [[Book of Mormon]] itself portrays the golden plates as a historical record, engraved by two [[pre-Columbian]] prophet-historians from around the year AD 400: [[Mormon (prophet)\|Mormon]] and his son [[Moroni (Book of Mormon prophet)\|Moroni]]. Mormon and Moroni, the book says, had abridged earlier historical records from other sets of metal plates. Their script, according to the book, was described as "[[reformed Egyptian]]," a language unknown to linguists or Egyptologists.
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*{{Harvtxt\|Smith\|1830\|p=538}}. Standard language references such as {{Harvtxt\|Daniels\|Bright\|1996}}; {{Harvtxt\|Crystal\|1997}}; and {{Harvtxt\|Woodard\|2004}} contain no reference to "reformed Egyptian". "Reformed Egyptian" is also not discussed in {{Harvtxt\|Robinson\|2002}}, although it is mentioned in {{harvtxt\|Williams\|1991}}.		#{{Harvtxt\|Smith\|1830\|p=538}}. Standard language references such as {{Harvtxt\|Daniels\|Bright\|1996}}; {{Harvtxt\|Crystal\|1997}}; and {{Harvtxt\|Woodard\|2004}} contain no reference to "reformed Egyptian". "Reformed Egyptian" is also not discussed in {{Harvtxt\|Robinson\|2002}}, although it is mentioned in {{harvtxt\|Williams\|1991}}.
	}}		}}
	{{WikipediaNPOV\|editor=Dougweller\|wikipedialink=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Golden_plates&diff=194386905&oldid=194386724}}		{{WikipediaNPOV\|editor=Dougweller\|wikipedialink=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Golden_plates&diff=194386905&oldid=194386724}}
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	The [[Community of Christ]], however, while accepting the Book of Mormon as scripture, no longer takes an official position on the historicity of the golden plates.		The [[Community of Christ]], however, while accepting the Book of Mormon as scripture, no longer takes an official position on the historicity of the golden plates.
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*McMurray, W. Grant, "They "Shall Blossom as the Rose": Native Americans and the Dream of Zion," an address delivered February 17, 2001, accessed on Community of Christ website, September 1, 2006 at http://web.archive.org/web/20070817021355/http://cofchrist.org/docs/NativeAmericanConference/keynote.asp ("The proper use of the Book of Mormon as sacred scripture has been under wide discussion in the 1970s and beyond, in part because of long-standing questions about its historicity and in part because of perceived theological inadequacies, including matters of race and ethnicity."). At the 2007 Community of Christ World Conference, President Stephen M. Veazey ruled a resolution to "reaffirm the Book of Mormon as a divinely inspired record" out of order. In so doing he stated that "while the Church affirms the Book of Mormon as scripture, and makes it available for study and use in various languages, we do not attempt to mandate the degree of belief or use. This position is in keeping with our longstanding tradition that belief in the Book of Mormon is not to be used as a test of fellowship or membership in the church." Andrew M. Shields, "Official Minutes of Business Session, Wednesday March 28, 2007," in 2007 World Conference Thursday Bulletin, March 29, 2007. Community of Christ, 2007.		#McMurray, W. Grant, "They "Shall Blossom as the Rose": Native Americans and the Dream of Zion," an address delivered February 17, 2001, accessed on Community of Christ website, September 1, 2006 at http://web.archive.org/web/20070817021355/http://cofchrist.org/docs/NativeAmericanConference/keynote.asp ("The proper use of the Book of Mormon as sacred scripture has been under wide discussion in the 1970s and beyond, in part because of long-standing questions about its historicity and in part because of perceived theological inadequacies, including matters of race and ethnicity."). At the 2007 Community of Christ World Conference, President Stephen M. Veazey ruled a resolution to "reaffirm the Book of Mormon as a divinely inspired record" out of order. In so doing he stated that "while the Church affirms the Book of Mormon as scripture, and makes it available for study and use in various languages, we do not attempt to mandate the degree of belief or use. This position is in keeping with our longstanding tradition that belief in the Book of Mormon is not to be used as a test of fellowship or membership in the church." Andrew M. Shields, "Official Minutes of Business Session, Wednesday March 28, 2007," in 2007 World Conference Thursday Bulletin, March 29, 2007. Community of Christ, 2007.
	}}		}}
	{{information}}		{{information}}
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	Moreover, even in the more theologically conservative [[The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints\|LDS Church]], some adherents who accept the Book of Mormon as inspired scripture do not believe it is a literal translation of a physical historical record.		Moreover, even in the more theologically conservative [[The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints\|LDS Church]], some adherents who accept the Book of Mormon as inspired scripture do not believe it is a literal translation of a physical historical record.
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*"In the early 20th century, [[B. H. Roberts]], historian for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), entertained the notion that Joseph Smith was capable of producing the Book of Mormon himself. In 1999, Richard N. Ostling, a religion journalist, wrote that within "the loyal Mormon community, there is a moderate intellectual group that believes the Book of Mormon does have ancient roots but, as part of the process of revelation properly understood, is expressed through nineteenth-century thought processes....an ancient text mediated through the mind of Joseph Smith" (Osling 1999, 264).		#"In the early 20th century, [[B. H. Roberts]], historian for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), entertained the notion that Joseph Smith was capable of producing the Book of Mormon himself. In 1999, Richard N. Ostling, a religion journalist, wrote that within "the loyal Mormon community, there is a moderate intellectual group that believes the Book of Mormon does have ancient roots but, as part of the process of revelation properly understood, is expressed through nineteenth-century thought processes....an ancient text mediated through the mind of Joseph Smith" (Osling 1999, 264).
	}}		}}
	*{{WikipediaCITE\|editor=John Foxe\|wikipedialink=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Golden_plates&diff=202263398&oldid=202153103}}		*{{WikipediaCITE\|editor=John Foxe\|wikipedialink=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Golden_plates&diff=202263398&oldid=202153103}}
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	Non-believers and some liberal Mormons have advanced naturalistic explanations for the story of the plates. For example, it has been theorized that the plates were fashioned by Joseph Smith or one of his associates,		Non-believers and some liberal Mormons have advanced naturalistic explanations for the story of the plates. For example, it has been theorized that the plates were fashioned by Joseph Smith or one of his associates,
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*{{Harvtxt\|Vogel\|2004\|pp=98, 600 note 65}} (suggesting the plates were made of common tin). To former Mormon Dan Vogel, "construction of such a book would have been relatively easy. There were scraps of tin available on the Smith property and elsewhere in the vicinity, and during the several hours Joseph was separated from Emma the night they went to the hill and on other occasions, he could have easily set up shop in the cave on the other side of the hill or in some corner of the forest. Using a pair of metal shears, it would have been easy to cut a number of 6 x 8 sheets....A book made of tin plates of the dimensions ( 6 x 8 x 6 inches) described by Smith would have weighed between fifty and sixty pounds, corresponding to the weight that was mentioned by eye-witness accounts."		#{{Harvtxt\|Vogel\|2004\|pp=98, 600 note 65}} (suggesting the plates were made of common tin). To former Mormon Dan Vogel, "construction of such a book would have been relatively easy. There were scraps of tin available on the Smith property and elsewhere in the vicinity, and during the several hours Joseph was separated from Emma the night they went to the hill and on other occasions, he could have easily set up shop in the cave on the other side of the hill or in some corner of the forest. Using a pair of metal shears, it would have been easy to cut a number of 6 x 8 sheets....A book made of tin plates of the dimensions ( 6 x 8 x 6 inches) described by Smith would have weighed between fifty and sixty pounds, corresponding to the weight that was mentioned by eye-witness accounts."
	}}		}}
	*{{WikipediaCITE\|editor=COgden\|wikipedialink=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Golden_plates&diff=273288766&oldid=273270785}}		*{{WikipediaCITE\|editor=COgden\|wikipedialink=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Golden_plates&diff=273288766&oldid=273270785}}
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	or that the plates were [[mysticism\|mystical]] and should be understood in the context of Smith's historical era, when [[magic (paranormal)\|magic]] was an accepted part of reality.		or that the plates were [[mysticism\|mystical]] and should be understood in the context of Smith's historical era, when [[magic (paranormal)\|magic]] was an accepted part of reality.
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*{{Harvtxt\|Metcalfe\|1993\|p=178}}.		#{{Harvtxt\|Metcalfe\|1993\|p=178}}.
	}}		}}
	{{WikipediaCITE\|editor=COgden\|wikipedialink=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Golden_plates&diff=194752621&oldid=194741952}}		{{WikipediaCITE\|editor=COgden\|wikipedialink=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Golden_plates&diff=194752621&oldid=194741952}}

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RogerNicholson at 19:46, 11 August 2017

2017-08-11T19:46:44Z

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	\|L3=Response to claim: "Only close associates of Joseph Smith were allowed to become official witnesses to the plates; he invited no strangers, or women, to view them"		\|L3=Response to claim: "Only close associates of Joseph Smith were allowed to become official witnesses to the plates; he invited no strangers, or women, to view them"
	\|L4=Response to claim: "Mormon apologists and Mormon critics can debate indirect evidence only"		\|L4=Response to claim: "Mormon apologists and Mormon critics can debate indirect evidence only"
			\|L5=Response to claim: "Among these topics, the credibility of the plates has been, according to Bushman, a 'troublesome item'"
			\|L6=Response to claim: "Their script, according to the book, was described as 'reformed Egyptian,' a language unknown to linguists or Egyptologists"
			\|L7=Response to claim: "Historically, Latter Day Saint movement denominations have taught that the Book of Mormon's description of the plates' origin is accurate"
			\|L8=Response to claim: "The Community of Christ, however, while accepting the Book of Mormon as scripture, no longer takes an official position on the historicity of the golden plates"
			\|L9=Response to claim: "B. H. Roberts, historian for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), entertained the notion that Joseph Smith was capable of producing the Book of Mormon himself"
			\|L10=Response to claim: "some liberal Mormons have advanced naturalistic explanations for the story of the plates"
			\|L11=Response to claim: "that Joseph Smith had the ability to convince others of their existence through illusions or hypnosis"
			\|L12=Response to claim: "the plates were mystical and should be understood in the context of Smith's historical era"
	}}		}}
	</onlyinclude>		</onlyinclude>

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	{{misinformation\|The cited source does not use the words "mystical" or "magical" to describe the plates.}}		{{misinformation\|The cited source does not use the words "mystical" or "magical" to describe the plates.}}

	===== =====		<!-- ===== =====
	{{IndexClaimItemShort		{{IndexClaimItemShort
	\|title=Wikipedia article "Golden plates"		\|title=Wikipedia article "Golden plates"
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	}}		}}
	*N/A		*N/A
			-->

	==References==		==References==

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	{{:Question: Could Joseph Smith have hypnotized the witnesses to the Book of Mormon?}}		{{:Question: Could Joseph Smith have hypnotized the witnesses to the Book of Mormon?}}

	==~~=== ===~~==		==Response to claim: "the plates were mystical and should be understood in the context of Smith's historical era"==
	{{IndexClaimItemShort		{{IndexClaimItemShort
	\|title=Wikipedia article "Golden plates"		\|title=Wikipedia article "Golden plates"
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	*{{Harvtxt\|Metcalfe\|1993\|p=178}}.		*{{Harvtxt\|Metcalfe\|1993\|p=178}}.
	}}		}}
	*{{WikipediaCITE\|editor=COgden\|wikipedialink=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Golden_plates&diff=194752621&oldid=194741952}}The cited source does not use the words "mystical" or "magical" to describe the plates.		{{WikipediaCITE\|editor=COgden\|wikipedialink=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Golden_plates&diff=194752621&oldid=194741952}}
			{{misinformation\|The cited source does not use the words "mystical" or "magical" to describe the plates.}}

	===== =====		===== =====

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	{{misinformation\|We see no "liberal Mormons" quoted in this or the subsequent sections.}}		{{misinformation\|We see no "liberal Mormons" quoted in this or the subsequent sections.}}

	==~~=== ===~~==		==Response to claim: "that Joseph Smith had the ability to convince others of their existence through illusions or hypnosis"==
	{{IndexClaimItemShort		{{IndexClaimItemShort
	\|title=Wikipedia article "Golden plates"		\|title=Wikipedia article "Golden plates"
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	that Joseph Smith had the ability to convince others of their existence through [[magic (illusion)\|illusions]] or [[hypnosis]],		that Joseph Smith had the ability to convince others of their existence through [[magic (illusion)\|illusions]] or [[hypnosis]],
	\|authorsources=		\|authorsources=
	*{{Harvtxt\|Riley\|1903\|p=211}} (proposing the theory that Smith hypnotized his followers in a way that suggested to them that they had seen the plates).		{{Harvtxt\|Riley\|1903\|p=211}} (proposing the theory that Smith hypnotized his followers in a way that suggested to them that they had seen the plates).
	}}		}}
	*{{~~WikipediaCorrect~~}}		{{information}}
			{{:Question: Could Joseph Smith have hypnotized the witnesses to the Book of Mormon?}}

	===== =====		===== =====

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	{{:Book of Mormon/B.H. Roberts and "Studies of the Book of Mormon"}}		{{:Book of Mormon/B.H. Roberts and "Studies of the Book of Mormon"}}

	==~~=== ===~~==		==Response to claim: "some liberal Mormons have advanced naturalistic explanations for the story of the plates"==
	{{IndexClaimItemShort		{{IndexClaimItemShort
	\|title=Wikipedia article "Golden plates"		\|title=Wikipedia article "Golden plates"
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	*{{Harvtxt\|Vogel\|2004\|pp=98, 600 note 65}} (suggesting the plates were made of common tin). To former Mormon Dan Vogel, "construction of such a book would have been relatively easy. There were scraps of tin available on the Smith property and elsewhere in the vicinity, and during the several hours Joseph was separated from Emma the night they went to the hill and on other occasions, he could have easily set up shop in the cave on the other side of the hill or in some corner of the forest. Using a pair of metal shears, it would have been easy to cut a number of 6 x 8 sheets....A book made of tin plates of the dimensions ( 6 x 8 x 6 inches) described by Smith would have weighed between fifty and sixty pounds, corresponding to the weight that was mentioned by eye-witness accounts."		*{{Harvtxt\|Vogel\|2004\|pp=98, 600 note 65}} (suggesting the plates were made of common tin). To former Mormon Dan Vogel, "construction of such a book would have been relatively easy. There were scraps of tin available on the Smith property and elsewhere in the vicinity, and during the several hours Joseph was separated from Emma the night they went to the hill and on other occasions, he could have easily set up shop in the cave on the other side of the hill or in some corner of the forest. Using a pair of metal shears, it would have been easy to cut a number of 6 x 8 sheets....A book made of tin plates of the dimensions ( 6 x 8 x 6 inches) described by Smith would have weighed between fifty and sixty pounds, corresponding to the weight that was mentioned by eye-witness accounts."
	}}		}}
	*{{WikipediaCITE\|editor=COgden\|wikipedialink=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Golden_plates&diff=273288766&oldid=273270785}} We see no "liberal Mormons" quoted in this or the subsequent sections.		*{{WikipediaCITE\|editor=COgden\|wikipedialink=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Golden_plates&diff=273288766&oldid=273270785}}
			{{misinformation\|We see no "liberal Mormons" quoted in this or the subsequent sections.}}

	===== =====		===== =====

RogerNicholson: /* Response to claim: "B. H. Roberts, historian for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), entertained the notion that Joseph Smith was capable of producing the Book of Mormon himself" */

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Response to claim: "B. H. Roberts, historian for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), entertained the notion that Joseph Smith was capable of producing the Book of Mormon himself"

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	{{propaganda\|The citation of B.H. Roberts implies that he did not believe the Book of Mormon to be a literal translation. This is incorrect. Roberts did a study of the Book of Mormon to identify how future critics of the book might approach it.		{{propaganda\|The citation of B.H. Roberts implies that he did not believe the Book of Mormon to be a literal translation. This is incorrect. Roberts did a study of the Book of Mormon to identify how future critics of the book might approach it.
	}}		}}
	~~{{:B.H. Roberts' testimony of the Book of Mormon}}~~
	{{:Book of Mormon/B.H. Roberts and "Studies of the Book of Mormon"}}		{{:Book of Mormon/B.H. Roberts and "Studies of the Book of Mormon"}}

RogerNicholson: /* Response to claim: "B. H. Roberts, historian for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), entertained the notion that Joseph Smith was capable of producing the Book of Mormon himself" */

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	}}		}}
	{{:B.H. Roberts' testimony of the Book of Mormon}}		{{:B.H. Roberts' testimony of the Book of Mormon}}
	{{:B.H. Roberts~~\|work=~~Studies of the Book of Mormon}}		{{:Book of Mormon/B.H. Roberts and "Studies of the Book of Mormon"}}

	===== =====		===== =====

Mormonism and Wikipedia/Golden plates/Origin and historicity - Revision history

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