Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Temple - Revision history

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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=the temple endowment ceremony seems so foreign to the nice, friendly worship services we attend every Sunday in the LDS chapels. The temple ceremony seems almost pagan in nature. It's like a ritual we would expect the Druids to practice. Very few members are really spiritually uplifted when they first go through the temple to take out their endowments. Most feel confused, shocked and not quite sure what to make of their experience in what is supposed to be one of the holiest places on earth. We were always offended when members of other churches referred to our church as a cult. We never really understood why -- until we went through our first temple endowment ceremony.		\|claim=the temple endowment ceremony seems so foreign to the nice, friendly worship services we attend every Sunday in the LDS chapels. The temple ceremony seems almost pagan in nature. It's like a ritual we would expect the Druids to practice. Very few members are really spiritually uplifted when they first go through the temple to take out their endowments. Most feel confused, shocked and not quite sure what to make of their experience in what is supposed to be one of the holiest places on earth. We were always offended when members of other churches referred to our church as a cult. We never really understood why—until we went through our first temple endowment ceremony.
	}}		}}
	{{propaganda\|Comparing temple ceremonies to pagan practices is offensive. Many currently active members are spiritually uplifted when they first go through the temple, and revisit the temple often. Just because the critic was not uplifted does not give him or her the ability to speak for the majority of Latter-day Saints and assume that "very few" members are uplifted.		{{propaganda\|Comparing temple ceremonies to pagan practices is offensive. Many currently active members are spiritually uplifted when they first go through the temple, and revisit the temple often. Just because the critic was not uplifted does not give him or her the ability to speak for the majority of Latter-day Saints and assume that "very few" members are uplifted.

RogerNicholson at 18:35, 4 August 2017

2017-08-04T18:35:26Z

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	\|>=[[../Lying for the Lord\|Lying for the Lord]]		\|>=[[../Lying for the Lord\|Lying for the Lord]]
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	~~{{ChartMormonThinkTheTemple}}~~		[[File:Mormonthink.chart.temple.png\|center\|frame]]
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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=A detailed comparison between the endowment and Masonry shows beyond any doubt a strong connection between Masonry and the LDS temple ceremony.		\|claim=A detailed comparison between the endowment and Masonry shows beyond any doubt a strong connection between Masonry and the LDS temple ceremony.
	\|~~information=~~Early Church leaders did believe that they had "the true Masonry."		}}
			{{information\|Early Church leaders did believe that they had "the true Masonry."
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: What criticisms are associated with the temple ritual and its relationship to Freemasonry?}}		{{:Question: What criticisms are associated with the temple ritual and its relationship to Freemasonry?}}
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	\|claim="The St. George Temple endowment included a revised thirty-minute 'lecture at the veil' which summarized important theological concepts taught in the endowment and also contained references to the Adam-God doctrine."		\|claim="The St. George Temple endowment included a revised thirty-minute 'lecture at the veil' which summarized important theological concepts taught in the endowment and also contained references to the Adam-God doctrine."
	\|source=David John Buerger "The Development of the Mormon Temple Endowment Ceremony", ''Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought'', Vol. 20, No. 4,(Winter, 1987).		\|source=David John Buerger "The Development of the Mormon Temple Endowment Ceremony", ''Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought'', Vol. 20, No. 4,(Winter, 1987).
	\|~~information=~~This is correct.		}}
			{{information\|This is correct.
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Was the "Adam-God" theory ever taught as part of the temple endowment ceremony as something called "the lecture at the veil"?}}		{{:Question: Was the "Adam-God" theory ever taught as part of the temple endowment ceremony as something called "the lecture at the veil"?}}

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	\|claim=The temple ceremony coincided with plural marriage as practiced by the early saints. As Joseph did not want to let the masses know about polygamy, he may have introduced the temple ceremony as a way of keeping polygamy a secret while introducing select members into the practice of plural marriage. As an important element of the temple ceremony is to never reveal what happens in the temple, even under penalty of death (before 1990), this would help keep the polygamous marriages a secret by the people that knew about them.		\|claim=The temple ceremony coincided with plural marriage as practiced by the early saints. As Joseph did not want to let the masses know about polygamy, he may have introduced the temple ceremony as a way of keeping polygamy a secret while introducing select members into the practice of plural marriage. As an important element of the temple ceremony is to never reveal what happens in the temple, even under penalty of death (before 1990), this would help keep the polygamous marriages a secret by the people that knew about them.
	\|source=mormonfundamentalism.com		\|source=mormonfundamentalism.com
	\|~~disinformation=~~The claim is ridiculous: ''hundreds'' of people received their endowment in the Nauvoo temple before heading west, and most of them were ''not'' practicing plural marriage. How does this accomplish "keeping polygamy a secret"?		}}
			{{disinformation\|The claim is ridiculous: ''hundreds'' of people received their endowment in the Nauvoo temple before heading west, and most of them were ''not'' practicing plural marriage. How does this accomplish "keeping polygamy a secret"?
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith create the temple ceremony as a way of teaching polygamy to certain members while keeping it a secret from the general public?}}		{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith create the temple ceremony as a way of teaching polygamy to certain members while keeping it a secret from the general public?}}
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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=There seems to be an absence of love in the actual temple marriage ceremony. It seems to be more about obeying God and the Church.		\|claim=There seems to be an absence of love in the actual temple marriage ceremony. It seems to be more about obeying God and the Church.
	\|~~disinformation=~~This is a grave distortion. The critic simply wishes to trivialize the ceremony by claiming that it is all about obedience to the Church. The temple marriage ceremony is a very special experience that is performed in a quiet and sacred setting in the presence of immediate family and friends. The ceremony is also an ordinance which binds two people together for eternity. Claiming that there is an "absence of love" is utterly ridiculous.		}}
			{{disinformation\|This is a grave distortion. The critic simply wishes to trivialize the ceremony by claiming that it is all about obedience to the Church. The temple marriage ceremony is a very special experience that is performed in a quiet and sacred setting in the presence of immediate family and friends. The ceremony is also an ordinance which binds two people together for eternity. Claiming that there is an "absence of love" is utterly ridiculous.
	}}		}}

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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=Why would the church place such emphasis on the temple?...Money...Control...Church importance...Peer pressure.		\|claim=Why would the church place such emphasis on the temple?...Money...Control...Church importance...Peer pressure.
	\|~~disinformation=~~The Church emphasizes temple attendance as a way of helping members understand the importance of the plan of salvation and the atonement of Jesus Christ. It is a way for us to renew and remember the covenants that we have made with God. If the Church were emphasizing temple attendance simply for the purposes of acquiring money and exercising control, then why would they emphasize attending the temple often? Would that not simply use up more Church resources such as power, heat and time?		}}
			{{disinformation\|The Church emphasizes temple attendance as a way of helping members understand the importance of the plan of salvation and the atonement of Jesus Christ. It is a way for us to renew and remember the covenants that we have made with God. If the Church were emphasizing temple attendance simply for the purposes of acquiring money and exercising control, then why would they emphasize attending the temple often? Would that not simply use up more Church resources such as power, heat and time?
	}}		}}

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	Heber C. Kimball, a Mason himself said, "We have the true Masonry. The Masonry of today is received from the apostasy which took place in the days of Solomon, and David. They have now and then a thing that is correct, but we have the real thing."		Heber C. Kimball, a Mason himself said, "We have the true Masonry. The Masonry of today is received from the apostasy which took place in the days of Solomon, and David. They have now and then a thing that is correct, but we have the real thing."
	\|source=Manuscript History of Brigham Young, 13 November, 1858, 1085, LDS archives; see also Stanley B. Kimball, "Heber C. Kimball and Family, The Nauvoo Years, Brigham Young University Studies 15 (Summer 1975): 458. See also David John Buerger, The Mysteries of Godliness: A History of Mormon Temple Worship, Smith Research Associates, San Francisco, 1994, 56.		\|source=Manuscript History of Brigham Young, 13 November, 1858, 1085, LDS archives; see also Stanley B. Kimball, "Heber C. Kimball and Family, The Nauvoo Years, Brigham Young University Studies 15 (Summer 1975): 458. See also David John Buerger, The Mysteries of Godliness: A History of Mormon Temple Worship, Smith Research Associates, San Francisco, 1994, 56.
	\|~~propaganda=~~Why is MormonThink "startled" that FairMormon agrees with historical facts?		}}
			{{propaganda\|Why is MormonThink "startled" that FairMormon agrees with historical facts?
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Where did 19th-Century Latter-day Saints believe that Freemasonry came from?}}		{{:Question: Where did 19th-Century Latter-day Saints believe that Freemasonry came from?}}
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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim= Why would Joseph Smith want to wear garments?...One answer of course, is that God commanded Joseph to institute the wearing of garments. Another possibility is that Joseph believed in magical and mystical things such as seer stones; he believed that putting symbols on clothing would protect him from harm. When Joseph was killed, they found a Jupiter Talisman on his body. This supports his belief in magical ornaments and symbols.		\|claim= Why would Joseph Smith want to wear garments?...One answer of course, is that God commanded Joseph to institute the wearing of garments. Another possibility is that Joseph believed in magical and mystical things such as seer stones; he believed that putting symbols on clothing would protect him from harm. When Joseph was killed, they found a Jupiter Talisman on his body. This supports his belief in magical ornaments and symbols.
	\|~~propaganda=~~This is simply pure speculation with no basis in anything found in contemporary sources. There is not one shred of evidence to support this assertion.		}}
			{{propaganda\|This is simply pure speculation with no basis in anything found in contemporary sources. There is not one shred of evidence to support this assertion.
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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=Non-Mormons don't believe that the LDS garments are required by God, but rather than feel sorry for garment-wearing members, they just think we're strange. Garments are the Mormon burqas - just worn on the inside.		\|claim=Non-Mormons don't believe that the LDS garments are required by God, but rather than feel sorry for garment-wearing members, they just think we're strange. Garments are the Mormon burqas - just worn on the inside.
	\|~~propaganda=~~This is an utterly absurd claim.		}}
			{{propaganda\|This is an utterly absurd claim.
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Is the Mormon temple garment simply "magic underwear"?}}		{{:Question: Is the Mormon temple garment simply "magic underwear"?}}
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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=Even among faithful members, very few people honestly say that their first temple experience was a complete joy or how they could really feel God's love or how Christ-centered they thought the experience was. At a minimum, people are kind and just say that it wasn't what they expected or that it just seemed strange to them.		\|claim=Even among faithful members, very few people honestly say that their first temple experience was a complete joy or how they could really feel God's love or how Christ-centered they thought the experience was. At a minimum, people are kind and just say that it wasn't what they expected or that it just seemed strange to them.
	\|~~propaganda=~~This is nonsense. We know ''many'' people for whom the temple is a very special experience. Just ask any temple-attending active member. If the temple makes them feel "strange," why do they keep going?		}}
			{{propaganda\|This is nonsense. We know ''many'' people for whom the temple is a very special experience. Just ask any temple-attending active member. If the temple makes them feel "strange," why do they keep going?
	}}		}}

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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=We've been hearing more and more stories that temple names are being recycled. Many people are reporting that temple patrons are performing endowments for the same deceased people multiple times. Some people report it as clerical errors while others state that sometimes the temples run out of names and just use names over again so the temple goers have someone to perform ordinances for.		\|claim=We've been hearing more and more stories that temple names are being recycled. Many people are reporting that temple patrons are performing endowments for the same deceased people multiple times. Some people report it as clerical errors while others state that sometimes the temples run out of names and just use names over again so the temple goers have someone to perform ordinances for.
	\|~~propaganda=~~This is circular reasoning. The critics state that they have "been hearing more and more" stories and that "many people are reporting" things without any substantiation whatsoever. The critics end their summary by assuming that these "stories" are true and that they "understand" why it is necessary. The idea that temple work is in decline and that it is necessary to recycle temple names is a cherished talking point on ex-Mormon message boards.		}}
			{{propaganda\|This is circular reasoning. The critics state that they have "been hearing more and more" stories and that "many people are reporting" things without any substantiation whatsoever. The critics end their summary by assuming that these "stories" are true and that they "understand" why it is necessary. The idea that temple work is in decline and that it is necessary to recycle temple names is a cherished talking point on ex-Mormon message boards.
	}}		}}

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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=Temples are beautiful buildings that many Latter-day Saints have pictures of hanging on the walls of their homes. If they were just used for public weddings, sealings and special worship services, then the temple would be viewed by members and nonmembers alike as holy places. Baptisms for the dead might still be looked at as a strange practice, but at least it perhaps may have some Biblical justification.		\|claim=Temples are beautiful buildings that many Latter-day Saints have pictures of hanging on the walls of their homes. If they were just used for public weddings, sealings and special worship services, then the temple would be viewed by members and nonmembers alike as holy places. Baptisms for the dead might still be looked at as a strange practice, but at least it perhaps may have some Biblical justification.
	\|~~propaganda=~~This is an arrogant assertion. The critics are claiming that if the Church simply removed several of its most important ordinances and turned the temples into something similar to public cathedrals, then everyone would be happy? Latter-day Saints view the temple as a sacred space, and do not have any desire to modify ordinances to make the rest of the world comfortable.		}}
			{{propaganda\|This is an arrogant assertion. The critics are claiming that if the Church simply removed several of its most important ordinances and turned the temples into something similar to public cathedrals, then everyone would be happy? Latter-day Saints view the temple as a sacred space, and do not have any desire to modify ordinances to make the rest of the world comfortable.
	}}		}}

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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=the temple endowment ceremony seems so foreign to the nice, friendly worship services we attend every Sunday in the LDS chapels. The temple ceremony seems almost pagan in nature. It's like a ritual we would expect the Druids to practice. Very few members are really spiritually uplifted when they first go through the temple to take out their endowments. Most feel confused, shocked and not quite sure what to make of their experience in what is supposed to be one of the holiest places on earth. We were always offended when members of other churches referred to our church as a cult. We never really understood why -- until we went through our first temple endowment ceremony.		\|claim=the temple endowment ceremony seems so foreign to the nice, friendly worship services we attend every Sunday in the LDS chapels. The temple ceremony seems almost pagan in nature. It's like a ritual we would expect the Druids to practice. Very few members are really spiritually uplifted when they first go through the temple to take out their endowments. Most feel confused, shocked and not quite sure what to make of their experience in what is supposed to be one of the holiest places on earth. We were always offended when members of other churches referred to our church as a cult. We never really understood why -- until we went through our first temple endowment ceremony.
	\|~~propaganda=~~Comparing temple ceremonies to pagan practices is offensive. Many currently active members are spiritually uplifted when they first go through the temple, and revisit the temple often. Just because the critic was not uplifted does not give him or her the ability to speak for the majority of Latter-day Saints and assume that "very few" members are uplifted.		}}
			{{propaganda\|Comparing temple ceremonies to pagan practices is offensive. Many currently active members are spiritually uplifted when they first go through the temple, and revisit the temple often. Just because the critic was not uplifted does not give him or her the ability to speak for the majority of Latter-day Saints and assume that "very few" members are uplifted.
	}}		}}

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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=Adam and Eve play a major part in the temple ceremony and are treated as actual, real, historical people (the first humans on the planet), which indicates that the temple ceremony is not factual, as Adam and Eve are very likely a myth.		\|claim=Adam and Eve play a major part in the temple ceremony and are treated as actual, real, historical people (the first humans on the planet), which indicates that the temple ceremony is not factual, as Adam and Eve are very likely a myth.
	\|~~propaganda=~~This is circular reasoning. The critic draws a conclusion that the temple ceremony is invalid based upon an assumption that Adam and Eve did not exist. Latter-day Saints believe that Adam and Eve were real people.		}}
			{{propaganda\|This is circular reasoning. The critic draws a conclusion that the temple ceremony is invalid based upon an assumption that Adam and Eve did not exist. Latter-day Saints believe that Adam and Eve were real people.
	}}		}}

	{{endnotes sources}}		{{endnotes sources}}

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	\|L1=		\|L1=Response to claim: "a strong connection between Masonry and the LDS temple ceremony"
			\|L2=Response to claim: "We were somewhat startled to find that FAIR admits that Masonry does not date back to Bible Times"
			\|L3=Response to claim: Joseph Smith "may have introduced the temple ceremony as a way of keeping polygamy a secret"
			\|L4=Response to claim: "Another possibility is that Joseph believed in magical and mystical things such as seer stones; he believed that putting symbols on clothing would protect him from harm"
			\|L5=Response to claim: "Garments are the Mormon burqas - just worn on the inside"
			\|L6=Response to claim: "There seems to be an absence of love in the actual temple marriage ceremony"
			\|L7=Response to claim: "very few people honestly say that their first temple experience was a complete joy"
			\|L8=Response to claim: "We've been hearing more and more stories that temple names are being recycled"
			\|L9=Response to claim: "The St. George Temple endowment included a revised thirty-minute 'lecture at the veil'"
			\|L10=Response to claim: "Why would the church place such emphasis on the temple?...Money...Control...Church importance...Peer pressure"
			\|L11=Response to claim: "If they were just used for public weddings, sealings and special worship services, then the temple would be viewed by members and nonmembers alike as holy places"
			\|L12=Response to claim: "The temple ceremony seems almost pagan in nature... Very few members are really spiritually uplifted when they first go through the temple"
			\|L13=Response to claim: "the temple ceremony is not factual, as Adam and Eve are very likely a myth"
	}}		}}
	~~==Quick Navigation==~~		</onlyinclude>
	*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Temple#Response to claim: "a strong connection between Masonry and the LDS temple ceremony"\|Response to claim: "a strong connection between Masonry and the LDS temple ceremony"]]
	*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Temple#Response to claim: "We were somewhat startled to find that FAIR admits that Masonry does not date back to Bible Times"\|Response to claim: "We were somewhat startled to find that FAIR admits that Masonry does not date back to Bible Times"]]
	*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Temple#Response to claim: Joseph Smith "may have introduced the temple ceremony as a way of keeping polygamy a secret"\|Response to claim: Joseph Smith "may have introduced the temple ceremony as a way of keeping polygamy a secret"]]
	*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Temple#Response to claim: "Another possibility is that Joseph believed in magical and mystical things such as seer stones; he believed that putting symbols on clothing would protect him from harm"\|Response to claim: "Another possibility is that Joseph believed in magical and mystical things such as seer stones; he believed that putting symbols on clothing would protect him from harm"]]
	*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Temple#Response to claim: "Garments are the Mormon burqas - just worn on the inside"\|Response to claim: "Garments are the Mormon burqas - just worn on the inside"]]
	*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Temple#Response to claim: "There seems to be an absence of love in the actual temple marriage ceremony"\|Response to claim: "There seems to be an absence of love in the actual temple marriage ceremony"]]
	*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Temple#Response to claim: "very few people honestly say that their first temple experience was a complete joy"\|Response to claim: "very few people honestly say that their first temple experience was a complete joy"]]
	*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Temple#Response to claim: "We've been hearing more and more stories that temple names are being recycled"\|Response to claim: "We've been hearing more and more stories that temple names are being recycled"]]
	*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Temple#Response to claim: "The St. George Temple endowment included a revised thirty-minute 'lecture at the veil'"\|Response to claim: "The St. George Temple endowment included a revised thirty-minute 'lecture at the veil'"]]
	*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Temple#Response to claim: "Why would the church place such emphasis on the temple?...Money...Control...Church importance...Peer pressure"\|Response to claim: "Why would the church place such emphasis on the temple?...Money...Control...Church importance...Peer pressure"]]
	*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Temple#Response to claim: "If they were just used for public weddings, sealings and special worship services, then the temple would be viewed by members and nonmembers alike as holy places"\|Response to claim: "If they were just used for public weddings, sealings and special worship services, then the temple would be viewed by members and nonmembers alike as holy places"]]
	*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Temple#Response to claim: "The temple ceremony seems almost pagan in nature... Very few members are really spiritually uplifted when they first go through the temple"\|Response to claim: "The temple ceremony seems almost pagan in nature... Very few members are really spiritually uplifted when they first go through the temple"]]
	*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Temple#Response to claim: "the temple ceremony is not factual, as Adam and Eve are very likely a myth"\|Response to claim: "the temple ceremony is not factual, as Adam and Eve are very likely a myth"]]
	~~{{parabreak}}~~
	==Response to claim: "a strong connection between Masonry and the LDS temple ceremony"==		==Response to claim: "a strong connection between Masonry and the LDS temple ceremony"==
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	}}		\|T=[[../\|MormonThink]]
	~~{{FAIRAnalysisHeader~~		\|A=Anonymous
	\|~~title~~=[[../\|MormonThink]]		\|<=[[../Tithing\|Tithing]]
	\|~~author~~=Anonymous		\|>=[[../Lying for the Lord\|Lying for the Lord]]
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	~~\|section=The Temple~~
	~~\|previous~~=[[../Tithing\|Tithing]]
	\|~~next~~=[[../Lying for the Lord\|Lying for the Lord]]
	~~\|notes=~~
	}}		}}
	{{ChartMormonThinkTheTemple}}		{{ChartMormonThinkTheTemple}}