Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Greek Psalter Incident - Revision history

GregSmith: /* top */Bot replace {{FairMormon}} with {{Main Page}} and remove extra lines around {{Header}}

2024-04-13T20:20:39Z

top: Bot replace {{FairMormon}} with {{Main Page}} and remove extra lines around {{Header}}

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:20, 13 April 2024
Line 1:		Line 1:
	{{~~FairMormon~~}}		{{Main Page}}
	{{H1		{{H1
	\|L= Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Greek Psalter Incident		\|L= Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Greek Psalter Incident

RogerNicholson at 18:30, 4 August 2017

2017-08-04T18:30:48Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:30, 4 August 2017
Line 8:		Line 8:
	\|>=[[../Conflicts with Science\|Conflicts with Science]]		\|>=[[../Conflicts with Science\|Conflicts with Science]]
	}}		}}
	~~{{ChartMormonThinkTheGreekPsalterIncident}}~~		[[File:Mormonthink.chart.greek.psalter.png\|center\|frame]]
	<onlyinclude>		<onlyinclude>
	{{H2		{{H2

RogerNicholson at 16:00, 4 August 2017

2017-08-04T16:00:01Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:00, 4 August 2017
Line 1:		Line 1:
	{{FairMormon}}		{{FairMormon}}
	~~<onlyinclude>~~
	{{H1		{{H1
	\|L= Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Greek Psalter Incident		\|L= Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Greek Psalter Incident

FairMormonBot: Bot: Automated text replacement (-\|misinformation= +}}\n{{misinformation|)

2017-08-04T15:39:54Z

Bot: Automated text replacement (-\|misinformation= +}}\n{{misinformation|)

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:39, 4 August 2017
Line 44:		Line 44:
	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=However, since Joseph translated some other documents as well, it's prudent to examine whatever source documents that may exist for those translations. If it can be proved that Joseph translated other ancient documents correctly, when he would have no knowledge of how to do so, it would go a long way to help validate Joseph's ability as a seer and translator. Most LDS are of course familiar with the first three translations. And some LDS are somewhat familiar with the Kinderhook Plates but very, very few members are aware of Joseph's encounter with a Greek Psalter in 1842.		\|claim=However, since Joseph translated some other documents as well, it's prudent to examine whatever source documents that may exist for those translations. If it can be proved that Joseph translated other ancient documents correctly, when he would have no knowledge of how to do so, it would go a long way to help validate Joseph's ability as a seer and translator. Most LDS are of course familiar with the first three translations. And some LDS are somewhat familiar with the Kinderhook Plates but very, very few members are aware of Joseph's encounter with a Greek Psalter in 1842.
	\|~~misinformation=~~Joseph didn't ''translate'' the Greek Psalter. MormonThink's original title to this page was "The Greek Psalter Translation." At some point they apparently realized that there ''was'' not translation, and modified it to the "The Greek Psalter Incident." However, this paragraph still implies that something can be deduced about Joseph's translating ability by examining it. Additionaly, one would first have to ask if Joseph translated any additional documents in the same way as as he did scripture, through direct revelation. For example, Joseph studied Hebrew in the School of the Prophets using conventional scholarly techniques--his translations of Hebrew done in class might, then, only represent his intellectual or scholarly ability at the time, and not a divine ability to translate scripture.		}}
			{{misinformation\|Joseph didn't ''translate'' the Greek Psalter. MormonThink's original title to this page was "The Greek Psalter Translation." At some point they apparently realized that there ''was'' not translation, and modified it to the "The Greek Psalter Incident." However, this paragraph still implies that something can be deduced about Joseph's translating ability by examining it. Additionaly, one would first have to ask if Joseph translated any additional documents in the same way as as he did scripture, through direct revelation. For example, Joseph studied Hebrew in the School of the Prophets using conventional scholarly techniques--his translations of Hebrew done in class might, then, only represent his intellectual or scholarly ability at the time, and not a divine ability to translate scripture.
	\|quote=		\|quote=
	}}		}}
Line 52:		Line 53:
	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=Joseph of course translated the Book of Mormon from Reformed Egyptian and he also translated the Book of Abraham from Egyptian papyri so he apparently knew Egyptian well enough to translate it and professor Caswall wanted to see what he thought about this ancient Greek manuscript.		\|claim=Joseph of course translated the Book of Mormon from Reformed Egyptian and he also translated the Book of Abraham from Egyptian papyri so he apparently knew Egyptian well enough to translate it and professor Caswall wanted to see what he thought about this ancient Greek manuscript.
	\|~~misinformation=~~Joseph could not translate Egyptian or any variation of Egyptian without divine aid, so he did not "apparently" know Egyptian well enough to translate it. The Nephite authors insisted that their "reformed Egyptian" had been so altered over 1000 years of separation from the Old World that "none other people knoweth our language; and because that none other people knoweth our language, therefore he hath prepared means for the interpretation thereof" ({{s\|\|Mormon\|9\|34}}). Therefore, Joseph's ability to translate had nothing to do with "knowing a language," but was done (as he always insisted) "by the gift and power of God." He was not a translator in the academic on intellectual sense.		}}
			{{misinformation\|Joseph could not translate Egyptian or any variation of Egyptian without divine aid, so he did not "apparently" know Egyptian well enough to translate it. The Nephite authors insisted that their "reformed Egyptian" had been so altered over 1000 years of separation from the Old World that "none other people knoweth our language; and because that none other people knoweth our language, therefore he hath prepared means for the interpretation thereof" ({{s\|\|Mormon\|9\|34}}). Therefore, Joseph's ability to translate had nothing to do with "knowing a language," but was done (as he always insisted) "by the gift and power of God." He was not a translator in the academic on intellectual sense.
	}}		}}

FairMormonBot: Bot: Automated text replacement (-\|disinformation= +}}\n{{disinformation|)

2017-08-04T15:35:52Z

Bot: Automated text replacement (-\|disinformation= +}}\n{{disinformation|)

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:35, 4 August 2017
Line 109:		Line 109:
	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=Joseph Smith did the exact same thing with the Greek Psalter that he did with the Book of Abraham papyri and the Kinderhook Plates. He saw an ancient document, one that he assumed no one in the world could translate and he said that he could translate it and he said what it was. And he was just as wrong with the Greek Psalter as he was with the Book of Abraham papyri and the Kinderhook plates.		\|claim=Joseph Smith did the exact same thing with the Greek Psalter that he did with the Book of Abraham papyri and the Kinderhook Plates. He saw an ancient document, one that he assumed no one in the world could translate and he said that he could translate it and he said what it was. And he was just as wrong with the Greek Psalter as he was with the Book of Abraham papyri and the Kinderhook plates.
	\|~~disinformation=~~Joseph never produced a translation of the Greek Psalter, so how it is that he "did the exact same thing" as he did with the Book of Abraham or Kinderhook Plates? We repeat: if Joseph ''truly said this'', then why didn't Caswell give him the book or sell him the book so Joseph could do publicly and in print what Caswell claimed Joseph wanted to do? The story doesn't hang together. Think about it.		}}
			{{disinformation\|Joseph never produced a translation of the Greek Psalter, so how it is that he "did the exact same thing" as he did with the Book of Abraham or Kinderhook Plates? We repeat: if Joseph ''truly said this'', then why didn't Caswell give him the book or sell him the book so Joseph could do publicly and in print what Caswell claimed Joseph wanted to do? The story doesn't hang together. Think about it.
	}}		}}

FairMormonBot: Bot: Automated text replacement (-\|propaganda= +}}\n{{propaganda|)

2017-08-04T15:30:32Z

Bot: Automated text replacement (-\|propaganda= +}}\n{{propaganda|)

Show changes

RogerNicholson at 14:43, 4 August 2017

2017-08-04T14:43:53Z

@@ Line 15: / Line 15: @@
 |H=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Greek Psalter Incident"
 |S=
-|L1=
+|L1=Response to claim: "there really is little to look at to determine the accuracy of Joseph's translating ability of the BOM"
 }}
 </onlyinclude>
-==Quick Navigation==
 ==Response to claim: "there really is little to look at to determine the accuracy of Joseph's translating ability of the BOM"==
 {{IndexClaimItemShort

RogerNicholson at 14:42, 4 August 2017

2017-08-04T14:42:54Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:42, 4 August 2017
Line 2:		Line 2:
	<onlyinclude>		<onlyinclude>
	{{H1		{{H1
	\|L=~~{{check}}~~		\|L= Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Greek Psalter Incident
	\|H=Response to MormonThink page "The Greek Psalter Incident"		\|H=Response to MormonThink page "The Greek Psalter Incident"
	~~\|S=~~
	~~\|L1=~~
	\|T=[[../\|MormonThink]]		\|T=[[../\|MormonThink]]
	\|A=Anonymous		\|A=Anonymous
Line 12:		Line 10:
	}}		}}
	{{ChartMormonThinkTheGreekPsalterIncident}}		{{ChartMormonThinkTheGreekPsalterIncident}}
			<onlyinclude>
			{{H2
			\|L= Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Greek Psalter Incident
			\|H=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Greek Psalter Incident"
			\|S=
			\|L1=
			}}
			</onlyinclude>
	==Quick Navigation==		==Quick Navigation==
	*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Greek Psalter Translation#Response to claim: "there really is little to look at to determine the accuracy of Joseph's translating ability of the BOM"\|Response to claim: "there really is little to look at to determine the accuracy of Joseph's translating ability of the BOM"]]		*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Greek Psalter Translation#Response to claim: "there really is little to look at to determine the accuracy of Joseph's translating ability of the BOM"\|Response to claim: "there really is little to look at to determine the accuracy of Joseph's translating ability of the BOM"]]

FairMormonBot: Bot: Automated text replacement (-\|H1 +|H)

2017-06-26T21:34:34Z

Bot: Automated text replacement (-\|H1 +|H)

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:34, 26 June 2017
Line 3:		Line 3:
	{{H1		{{H1
	\|L={{check}}		\|L={{check}}
	\|H1=Response to MormonThink page "The Greek Psalter Incident"		\|H=Response to MormonThink page "The Greek Psalter Incident"
	\|S=		\|S=
	\|L1=		\|L1=

FairMormonBot: Bot: Automated text replacement (-{{H2\n\|L(.)\n\|H2(.)\n(.)\n(.)\n\|T +{{H1\n|L\1\n|H1\2\n\3\n\4\n|T)

2017-06-10T04:01:28Z

Bot: Automated text replacement (-{{H2\n\|L(.*)\n\|H2(.*)\n(.*)\n(.*)\n\|T +{{H1\n|L\1\n|H1\2\n\3\n\4\n|T)

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:01, 10 June 2017
Line 1:		Line 1:
	{{FairMormon}}		{{FairMormon}}
	<onlyinclude>		<onlyinclude>
	{{H2		{{H1
	\|L={{check}}		\|L={{check}}
	\|H2=Response to MormonThink page "The Greek Psalter Incident"		\|H1=Response to MormonThink page "The Greek Psalter Incident"
	\|S=		\|S=
	\|L1=		\|L1=