Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Polygamy - Revision history

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	In the modern Church, we think of sealing = marriage, but before 1836, the idea of sealing was not part of LDS doctrine. They still knew about ''marriage'', though, and so Joseph and Fanny were ''married''. Why isn't this explained? The idea is simple--what are they trying to get you to believe? Even hostile anti-Mormon sources agreed that Fanny and Joseph were married. Why would these sources claim that if it wasn't well-understood by those who knew about it? Wouldn't they take any opportunity to make Joseph look bad? Why say it was a "marriage" if it wasn't?		In the modern Church, we think of sealing = marriage, but before 1836, the idea of sealing was not part of LDS doctrine. They still knew about ''marriage'', though, and so Joseph and Fanny were ''married''. Why isn't this explained? The idea is simple--what are they trying to get you to believe? Even hostile anti-Mormon sources agreed that Fanny and Joseph were married. Why would these sources claim that if it wasn't well-understood by those who knew about it? Wouldn't they take any opportunity to make Joseph look bad? Why say it was a "marriage" if it wasn't?

	Mosiah Hancock autobiography, in which Hancock reports that "Father gave her [Fanny] to Joseph repeating the Ceremony as Joseph repeated to him."<ref>Mosiah F. Hancock, Autobiography, MS 570, ~~LDS~~ Church Archives, 61–62; Todd Compton, "Fanny Alger Smith Custer: Mormonism's First Plural Wife?" ''Journal of Mormon History'' 22/1 (Spring 1996): 189–90.</ref> This is a ''marriage ceremony''.		Mosiah Hancock autobiography, in which Hancock reports that "Father gave her [Fanny] to Joseph repeating the Ceremony as Joseph repeated to him."<ref>Mosiah F. Hancock, Autobiography, MS 570, Church Archives, 61–62; Todd Compton, "Fanny Alger Smith Custer: Mormonism's First Plural Wife?" ''Journal of Mormon History'' 22/1 (Spring 1996): 189–90.</ref> This is a ''marriage ceremony''.

	Ann Eliza Young, a hostile anti-Mormon source, reported later that Fanny's "parents . . . considered it the highest honor to have their daughter adopted into the Prophet's family, and her mother has always claimed that she [Fanny] was sealed to Joseph at that time."<ref>{{CriticalWork:Young:Wife No. 19\|pages=66-67}}</ref> Ann Eliza elsewhere wrote: "''I do not know that 'sealing' commenced in Kirtland but I am perfectly satisfied that '''something similar''' commenced'', and my judgement is principally formed from what Fanny Algers [sic] told me herself concerning her reasons for leaving 'sister Emma.' " {{ea}}<ref>Ann Eliza Webb to Mary Bond, letter (4 May 1876) in Myron H. Bond Collection, P21, f11, RLDS Library-Archives; cited in {{Book:Compton:In Sacred Loneliness\|pages=645}}</ref>		Ann Eliza Young, a hostile anti-Mormon source, reported later that Fanny's "parents . . . considered it the highest honor to have their daughter adopted into the Prophet's family, and her mother has always claimed that she [Fanny] was sealed to Joseph at that time."<ref>{{CriticalWork:Young:Wife No. 19\|pages=66-67}}</ref> Ann Eliza elsewhere wrote: "''I do not know that 'sealing' commenced in Kirtland but I am perfectly satisfied that '''something similar''' commenced'', and my judgement is principally formed from what Fanny Algers [sic] told me herself concerning her reasons for leaving 'sister Emma.' " {{ea}}<ref>Ann Eliza Webb to Mary Bond, letter (4 May 1876) in Myron H. Bond Collection, P21, f11, RLDS Library-Archives; cited in {{Book:Compton:In Sacred Loneliness\|pages=645}}</ref>
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	\|claim=Critics' Comment: Today's church leaders assert that the mainstream Mormon church has nothing whatsoever to do with fundamentalist polygamists. There's no contradiction in the fact that a sitting apostle in the 1950s had a polygamous Father-in-law living in full fellowship in the church and was a temple worker, more than half a century after church leaders claimed to have abandoned polygamy???		\|claim=Critics' Comment: Today's church leaders assert that the mainstream Mormon church has nothing whatsoever to do with fundamentalist polygamists. There's no contradiction in the fact that a sitting apostle in the 1950s had a polygamous Father-in-law living in full fellowship in the church and was a temple worker, more than half a century after church leaders claimed to have abandoned polygamy???
	}}		}}
	{{propaganda\|MormonThink should remember that we "can't pick our families." If an apostle's father-in-law in the 1950s is the best they can come up with to try to link "fundamentalist" groups to the Church, what does that say about the quality of the argument? Most "fundamentalists" have never been members of the ~~LDS~~ Church. The Church does not now preach or sanction the practice of polygamy. If MormonThink has any evidence proving otherwise, they ought to provide it.		{{propaganda\|MormonThink should remember that we "can't pick our families." If an apostle's father-in-law in the 1950s is the best they can come up with to try to link "fundamentalist" groups to the Church, what does that say about the quality of the argument? Most "fundamentalists" have never been members of the Church. The Church does not now preach or sanction the practice of polygamy. If MormonThink has any evidence proving otherwise, they ought to provide it.
	}}		}}

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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=Faithful Mormon and wife of Joseph Smith, Sylvia Sessions (Lyon), on her deathbed told her daughter, Josephine, that she (Josephine) was the daughter of Joseph Smith. Josephine testified: "She (Sylvia) then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith, she having been sealed to the Prophet at the time that her husband Mr. Lyon was out of fellowship with the Church."		\|claim=Faithful Mormon and wife of Joseph Smith, Sylvia Sessions (Lyon), on her deathbed told her daughter, Josephine, that she (Josephine) was the daughter of Joseph Smith. Josephine testified: "She (Sylvia) then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith, she having been sealed to the Prophet at the time that her husband Mr. Lyon was out of fellowship with the Church."
	\|authorsources=		\|authorsources=<br>
	Affidavit to Church Historian Andrew Jenson, 24 Feb. 1915		#Affidavit to Church Historian Andrew Jenson, 24 Feb. 1915
	}}		}}
	{{information\|Sylvia may have considered herself divorced from Windsor after he was excommunicated from the Church.		{{information\|Sylvia may have considered herself divorced from Windsor after he was excommunicated from the Church.
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	\|claim=1844 Sermon given by Joseph. It is clear that on May 26, 1844 Joseph lied about practicing polygamy, despite claims to the contrary.		\|claim=1844 Sermon given by Joseph. It is clear that on May 26, 1844 Joseph lied about practicing polygamy, despite claims to the contrary.
	\|authorsources=		\|authorsources=<br>
	Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 410-411		#Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 410-411
	}}		}}
	{{propaganda\|Joseph tried to teach plural marriage publicly to Church members, but many rejected it. Did Joseph have any duty to protect the Saints from the mobbing and deaths that would surely follow if plural marriage became widely known? Joseph showed himself willing to die to prevent attacks on the Saints—but, should he have been willing to risk the death ''of others'' because of what he was teaching? It is easy to criticize from the safety of the twenty-first century, when police protection is strong, and unpopular groups are not always at risk of vigilante justice. It seems like MormonThink would prefer that Joseph tell everything, and have the Saints slaughtered as a result. Polygamy was revealed as soon as it was safe to do so, even though the Church and its leaders knew that they would suffer political disadvantage. Orson Hyde said, "What would it have done for us, if they had known that many of us had more than one wife when we lived in Illinois? They would have broken us up, doubtless, worse than they did." - {{JDfairwiki\|author=Orson Hyde\|title=The Marriage Relations\|date=6 October 1854\|vol=2\|disc=18\|start=75\|end=75}}		{{propaganda\|Joseph tried to teach plural marriage publicly to Church members, but many rejected it. Did Joseph have any duty to protect the Saints from the mobbing and deaths that would surely follow if plural marriage became widely known? Joseph showed himself willing to die to prevent attacks on the Saints—but, should he have been willing to risk the death ''of others'' because of what he was teaching? It is easy to criticize from the safety of the twenty-first century, when police protection is strong, and unpopular groups are not always at risk of vigilante justice. It seems like MormonThink would prefer that Joseph tell everything, and have the Saints slaughtered as a result. Polygamy was revealed as soon as it was safe to do so, even though the Church and its leaders knew that they would suffer political disadvantage. Orson Hyde said, "What would it have done for us, if they had known that many of us had more than one wife when we lived in Illinois? They would have broken us up, doubtless, worse than they did." - {{JDfairwiki\|author=Orson Hyde\|title=The Marriage Relations\|date=6 October 1854\|vol=2\|disc=18\|start=75\|end=75}}
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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=Many LDS are under the impression that shortly before Joseph Smith was killed, he was put in jail unjustly by anti-Mormons using trumped-up charges. In reality, the circumstances surrounding Joseph's assassination was a result of the actions he took to prevent his being exposed as a polygamist.		\|claim=Many LDS are under the impression that shortly before Joseph Smith was killed, he was put in jail unjustly by anti-Mormons using trumped-up charges. In reality, the circumstances surrounding Joseph's assassination was a result of the actions he took to prevent his being exposed as a polygamist.
	\|authorsources=		\|authorsources=<br>
	From the "neutral" site wikipedia (from June 2008)		#From the "neutral" site wikipedia (from June 2008)
	}}		}}
	{{propaganda\|Notice the contradiction: MormonThink criticizes Joseph for hiding plural marriage, but then says Joseph was murdered because of plural marriage. So, if he would have announced to everyone that the Saints were teaching and practicing plural marriage, are we supposed to believe everything would have gone well?		{{propaganda\|Notice the contradiction: MormonThink criticizes Joseph for hiding plural marriage, but then says Joseph was murdered because of plural marriage. So, if he would have announced to everyone that the Saints were teaching and practicing plural marriage, are we supposed to believe everything would have gone well?

RogerNicholson at 18:27, 4 August 2017

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	~~{{ChartMormonThinkPolygamy}}~~		[[File:Mormonthink.chart.polygamy.png\|center\|frame]]
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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=The reasons most commonly given by members (even if not published in church lesson manuals) to justify polygamy are:...Polygamy was an acceptable way to rapidly increase the Church membership.		\|claim=The reasons most commonly given by members (even if not published in church lesson manuals) to justify polygamy are:...Polygamy was an acceptable way to rapidly increase the Church membership.
	\|~~information=~~In Utah, there were [[Mormonism_and_polygamy/Purpose_of_plural_marriage/Possible_benefits\|always more women worthy of temple marriage]] than there were men. So, plural marriage might not increase the number of ''children'' born, but it could very easily increase the number of ''children born to active families with dedicated parents''. Given a choice between not marrying at all, or marrying a man who was not as active or dedicated, do you think it surprising that some dedicated LDS women preferred a plural relationship with a believing, temple-worthy man?		}}
			{{information\|In Utah, there were [[Mormonism_and_polygamy/Purpose_of_plural_marriage/Possible_benefits\|always more women worthy of temple marriage]] than there were men. So, plural marriage might not increase the number of ''children'' born, but it could very easily increase the number of ''children born to active families with dedicated parents''. Given a choice between not marrying at all, or marrying a man who was not as active or dedicated, do you think it surprising that some dedicated LDS women preferred a plural relationship with a believing, temple-worthy man?

	How many of you are descendants of polygamists? If there had been no polygamy, would you be here?		How many of you are descendants of polygamists? If there had been no polygamy, would you be here?
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	\|claim=The first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants (1835) included a section denying any practice of polygamy:		\|claim=The first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants (1835) included a section denying any practice of polygamy:
	"Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again." (History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 247)		"Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again." (History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 247)
	\|~~information=~~This was added by Oliver Cowdery after he learned that plural marriage had been restored. After the Saints moved to Utah and the practice of plural marriage was made public, this section was removed and replaced by Section 132.		}}
			{{information\|This was added by Oliver Cowdery after he learned that plural marriage had been restored. After the Saints moved to Utah and the practice of plural marriage was made public, this section was removed and replaced by Section 132.
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Why did the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants include a statement of marriage that denied the practice of polygamy at a time when some were actually practicing it?}}		{{:Question: Why did the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants include a statement of marriage that denied the practice of polygamy at a time when some were actually practicing it?}}
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	\|authorsources=		\|authorsources=
	Affidavit to Church Historian Andrew Jenson, 24 Feb. 1915		Affidavit to Church Historian Andrew Jenson, 24 Feb. 1915
	\|~~information=~~Sylvia may have considered herself divorced from Windsor after he was excommunicated from the Church.		}}
			{{information\|Sylvia may have considered herself divorced from Windsor after he was excommunicated from the Church.
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: What did the husband of Sylvia Sessions know about her sealing to Joseph Smith for eternity?}}		{{:Question: What did the husband of Sylvia Sessions know about her sealing to Joseph Smith for eternity?}}
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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=FARMS reviewer Gregory L. Smith acknowledges, 71 pages into his 86-page review of George D. Smith's new book, Nauvoo Polygamy: "…but we called it celestial marriage" ("George D. Smith's Nauvoo Polygamy," FARMS Review 20:2, 2008), that Joseph Smith had "conjugal relations" with at least eight women in addition to his first wife, Emma.		\|claim=FARMS reviewer Gregory L. Smith acknowledges, 71 pages into his 86-page review of George D. Smith's new book, Nauvoo Polygamy: "…but we called it celestial marriage" ("George D. Smith's Nauvoo Polygamy," FARMS Review 20:2, 2008), that Joseph Smith had "conjugal relations" with at least eight women in addition to his first wife, Emma.
	\|~~information=~~This information is not new--another FARMS reviewer discussed the same matter years earlier in 1998. (See {{FR-10-2-6}}). A CES teacher, Danel Bachman, discussed these matters in the 1970s. ({{Book:Bachman:Thesis:1975}}) Why is it such a scandal if Joseph had conjugal relations with his plural wives? Every ''other'' Church president and leader had conjugal relations with at least some of their wives too.		}}
			{{information\|This information is not new--another FARMS reviewer discussed the same matter years earlier in 1998. (See {{FR-10-2-6}}). A CES teacher, Danel Bachman, discussed these matters in the 1970s. ({{Book:Bachman:Thesis:1975}}) Why is it such a scandal if Joseph had conjugal relations with his plural wives? Every ''other'' Church president and leader had conjugal relations with at least some of their wives too.
	}}		}}

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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=The Church continued to practice polygamy after 1890		\|claim=The Church continued to practice polygamy after 1890
	\|~~information=~~This is correct, as noted on LDS.org.		}}
			{{information\|This is correct, as noted on LDS.org.
	}}		}}
	{{:Source:Gospel Topics:The Manifesto and the End of Plural Marriage:The Second Manifesto}}		{{:Source:Gospel Topics:The Manifesto and the End of Plural Marriage:The Second Manifesto}}

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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=If you believe the concept of eternal marriage, then Joseph Smith literally stole other men's wives and their children, regardless of whether he had sex with them or not. What right did he have to do that - because he was the prophet?		\|claim=If you believe the concept of eternal marriage, then Joseph Smith literally stole other men's wives and their children, regardless of whether he had sex with them or not. What right did he have to do that - because he was the prophet?
	\|~~disinformation=~~To "steal" means to "take the property of another without right or permission." These women continued to live with, and have relations with, their earthly husbands. Did you know that Joseph had the permission of these women to be sealed to them, and in all cases where we are told about the husband's reaction, the men ''also'' gave permission? Polyandrous sealings appear to have been designed to bind members into one great family. This didn't destroy existing family relationships, it simply bound the members together.		}}
			{{disinformation\|To "steal" means to "take the property of another without right or permission." These women continued to live with, and have relations with, their earthly husbands. Did you know that Joseph had the permission of these women to be sealed to them, and in all cases where we are told about the husband's reaction, the men ''also'' gave permission? Polyandrous sealings appear to have been designed to bind members into one great family. This didn't destroy existing family relationships, it simply bound the members together.

	Why are there no examples of angry husbands upset that Joseph had cheated on them with their wives? Joseph's "[[Polygamy_book/Polyandry\|polyandrous]]" relationships have no evidence of being consummated. Polyandry applied only the the next life and was probably designed to link families together.		Why are there no examples of angry husbands upset that Joseph had cheated on them with their wives? Joseph's "[[Polygamy_book/Polyandry\|polyandrous]]" relationships have no evidence of being consummated. Polyandry applied only the the next life and was probably designed to link families together.
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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=It's often taught that concerning the marriage of Joseph to 14 year old Helen Mar Kimball, it was Helen's father that initiated and arranged the marriage. This is not true. Before Smith approached Heber to have 14 year-old Helen as his bride, Smith called on Heber to turn over his wife, Vilate, to be Smith's wife.....So after Joseph Smith went so far as to "test" Heber C. Kimball to see if he would turn over his wife, Smith then asked for his only daughter, 14 year-old Helen.		\|claim=It's often taught that concerning the marriage of Joseph to 14 year old Helen Mar Kimball, it was Helen's father that initiated and arranged the marriage. This is not true. Before Smith approached Heber to have 14 year-old Helen as his bride, Smith called on Heber to turn over his wife, Vilate, to be Smith's wife.....So after Joseph Smith went so far as to "test" Heber C. Kimball to see if he would turn over his wife, Smith then asked for his only daughter, 14 year-old Helen.
	\|~~disinformation=~~Wait a minute—''Helen'' is the one that said that her father initiated and arranged the marriage. These quotes are included on MormonThink's own page! Here it is again:		}}
			{{disinformation\|Wait a minute—''Helen'' is the one that said that her father initiated and arranged the marriage. These quotes are included on MormonThink's own page! Here it is again:
	<blockquote>		<blockquote>
	"Having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet, Joseph, he [Heber] offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet's own mouth." - Helen, cited in Compton, ''In Sacred Loneliness'', 498.		"Having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet, Joseph, he [Heber] offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet's own mouth." - Helen, cited in Compton, ''In Sacred Loneliness'', 498.
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	\|claim=Editor Comments: Like many polygamous wives, Helen likely hated the very idea of polygamy when first introduced to it and for many years afterward as she said in many of her writings. The negative writings by Helen seem to greatly outweigh the positive writings. This is similar to Emma Smith, who at times accepted polygamy, but most of the time was bitterly opposed to the practice. As time went on Helen may have accepted it and even felt special by being known as one of the wives of the most revered prophet. Perhaps she decided to make the best of it as she had no choice at that point. No one but Helen herself can say for sure if she really enjoyed being a polygamous wife of Joseph Smith. However, one thing we can say with conviction is that a 14 year-old girl should never have been put in that position in the first place by Joseph and by her own parents.		\|claim=Editor Comments: Like many polygamous wives, Helen likely hated the very idea of polygamy when first introduced to it and for many years afterward as she said in many of her writings. The negative writings by Helen seem to greatly outweigh the positive writings. This is similar to Emma Smith, who at times accepted polygamy, but most of the time was bitterly opposed to the practice. As time went on Helen may have accepted it and even felt special by being known as one of the wives of the most revered prophet. Perhaps she decided to make the best of it as she had no choice at that point. No one but Helen herself can say for sure if she really enjoyed being a polygamous wife of Joseph Smith. However, one thing we can say with conviction is that a 14 year-old girl should never have been put in that position in the first place by Joseph and by her own parents.
	\|~~disinformation=~~Helen became a great supporter of plural marriage. How does one "weigh" the negative writings against the positive ones? Helen has already told us that she believed the doctrine when it was taught to her. Helen made the choice to be sealed to Joseph: "This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward." - Helen Mar Kimball Whitney, Autobiography, 30 March 1881, LDS archives; cited in B. Carmon Hardy, ''Works of Abraham'', 49.		}}
			{{disinformation\|Helen became a great supporter of plural marriage. How does one "weigh" the negative writings against the positive ones? Helen has already told us that she believed the doctrine when it was taught to her. Helen made the choice to be sealed to Joseph: "This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward." - Helen Mar Kimball Whitney, Autobiography, 30 March 1881, LDS archives; cited in B. Carmon Hardy, ''Works of Abraham'', 49.

	She realized, in retrospect, that she did not understand the trials that would result: "in [my mother's] mind she saw the misery which was as sure to come as the sun was to rise and set; but it was all hidden from me."		She realized, in retrospect, that she did not understand the trials that would result: "in [my mother's] mind she saw the misery which was as sure to come as the sun was to rise and set; but it was all hidden from me."
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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=And although polygamy was practiced somewhat in Old Testament times, it was more of a social custom and not a religious commandment....Yes, polygamy was practiced in the OT, but God never commanded it to be practiced. The model was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Eve and Jane and Sally .... God seems to have accepted their practicing it for cultural reasons.		\|claim=And although polygamy was practiced somewhat in Old Testament times, it was more of a social custom and not a religious commandment....Yes, polygamy was practiced in the OT, but God never commanded it to be practiced. The model was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Eve and Jane and Sally .... God seems to have accepted their practicing it for cultural reasons.
	\|~~disinformation=~~This is absolutely false. In fact, Levirate marriage was a commandment.		}}
			{{disinformation\|This is absolutely false. In fact, Levirate marriage was a commandment.
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: Does the Bible forbid plural marriage?}}		{{:Question: Does the Bible forbid plural marriage?}}

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Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Polygamy - Revision history

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