Countercult ministries/Watchman Fellowship/Section 4 - Revision history

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	{{misinformation\|We do not suffer eternal physical death for our sins and neither does Adam, for the same reason—the Atonement of Jesus Christ:}}		{{misinformation\|We do not suffer eternal physical death for our sins and neither does Adam, for the same reason—the Atonement of Jesus Christ:}}
	<blockquote>Adam spake unto the Lord, and said: Why is it that men must repent and be baptized in water? And the Lord said unto Adam: Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden. Hence came the saying abroad among the people, that the Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world. ({{s\|\|Moses\|6\|53-54}})</blockquote>		<blockquote>Adam spake unto the Lord, and said: Why is it that men must repent and be baptized in water? And the Lord said unto Adam: Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden. Hence came the saying abroad among the people, that the Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world. ({{s\|\|Moses\|6\|53-54}})</blockquote>
	*{{~~Detail~~\|Plan of salvation/Original sin\|l1=Original sin}}		*{{Detail_old\|Plan of salvation/Original sin\|l1=Original sin}}
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: If the transgression of Adam and Eve resulted in physical and spiritual death, then why are we only subject to spiritual death for eternity if we do not repent?}}		{{:Question: If the transgression of Adam and Eve resulted in physical and spiritual death, then why are we only subject to spiritual death for eternity if we do not repent?}}

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	The authors ask, if "death is the wages of sin," and the fall of Adam and Eve "was not actually sin, then why did it introduce death into the world?"		The authors ask, if "death is the wages of sin," and the fall of Adam and Eve "was not actually sin, then why did it introduce death into the world?"
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*{{s\|\|Romans\|6\|23}}		#{{s\|\|Romans\|6\|23}}
	*{{s\|\|Romans\|5\|12}}		*{{s\|\|Romans\|5\|12}}
	}}		}}
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	How did the transgression of Adam and Eve "introduce sin into the world?" How were mortality and a sinful world the result of a transgression rather than a sin?		How did the transgression of Adam and Eve "introduce sin into the world?" How were mortality and a sinful world the result of a transgression rather than a sin?
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*{{s\|\|Romans\|5\|12}}		#{{s\|\|Romans\|5\|12}}
	}}		}}
	{{misinformation\|It happened that way because God told them that it would.}}		{{misinformation\|It happened that way because God told them that it would.}}
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	If the transgression of Adam and Eve resulted in physical ''and'' spiritual death, then why are we ''only'' subject to spiritual death for eternity if we do not repent? Wouldn't our sins, since we have a knowledge of good and evil and Adam did not, be more serious than his? The authors ask why we "incur a lesser penalty in eternity than Adam's (non)-sin?"		If the transgression of Adam and Eve resulted in physical ''and'' spiritual death, then why are we ''only'' subject to spiritual death for eternity if we do not repent? Wouldn't our sins, since we have a knowledge of good and evil and Adam did not, be more serious than his? The authors ask why we "incur a lesser penalty in eternity than Adam's (non)-sin?"
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*{{s\|2\|Nephi\|2\|5}}		#{{s\|2\|Nephi\|2\|5}}
	*{{s\|\|Luke\|12\|47-48}}		*{{s\|\|Luke\|12\|47-48}}
	}}		}}

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	The authors ask, if "death is the wages of sin," and the fall of Adam and Eve "was not actually sin, then why did it introduce death into the world?"		The authors ask, if "death is the wages of sin," and the fall of Adam and Eve "was not actually sin, then why did it introduce death into the world?"
	\|authorsources=		\|authorsources=<br>
	*{{s\|\|Romans\|6\|23}}		#*{{s\|\|Romans\|6\|23}}
	*{{s\|\|Romans\|5\|12}}		*{{s\|\|Romans\|5\|12}}
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	How did the transgression of Adam and Eve "introduce sin into the world?" How were mortality and a sinful world the result of a transgression rather than a sin?		How did the transgression of Adam and Eve "introduce sin into the world?" How were mortality and a sinful world the result of a transgression rather than a sin?
	\|authorsources=		\|authorsources=<br>
	*{{s\|\|Romans\|5\|12}}		#*{{s\|\|Romans\|5\|12}}
	}}		}}
	{{misinformation\|It happened that way because God told them that it would.}}		{{misinformation\|It happened that way because God told them that it would.}}
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	The authors claim that if the transgression of Adam and Eve were "such a blessing," then they would have not felt "guilty and afraid" when God approached them in the Garden of Eden after they committed their transgression?		The authors claim that if the transgression of Adam and Eve were "such a blessing," then they would have not felt "guilty and afraid" when God approached them in the Garden of Eden after they committed their transgression?
	\|authorsources=		\|authorsources=<br>
	}}		#}}
	{{misinformation\|Partaking of the fruit gave Adam and Eve a knowledge of good and evil, and so their moral awareness made them feel guilty for doing wrong}}		{{misinformation\|Partaking of the fruit gave Adam and Eve a knowledge of good and evil, and so their moral awareness made them feel guilty for doing wrong}}
	}}		}}
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	\|claim=		\|claim=
	If the transgression of Adam and Eve resulted in physical ''and'' spiritual death, then why are we ''only'' subject to spiritual death for eternity if we do not repent? Wouldn't our sins, since we have a knowledge of good and evil and Adam did not, be more serious than his? The authors ask why we "incur a lesser penalty in eternity than Adam's (non)-sin?"		If the transgression of Adam and Eve resulted in physical ''and'' spiritual death, then why are we ''only'' subject to spiritual death for eternity if we do not repent? Wouldn't our sins, since we have a knowledge of good and evil and Adam did not, be more serious than his? The authors ask why we "incur a lesser penalty in eternity than Adam's (non)-sin?"
	\|authorsources=		\|authorsources=<br>
	*{{s\|2\|Nephi\|2\|5}}		#*{{s\|2\|Nephi\|2\|5}}
	*{{s\|\|Luke\|12\|47-48}}		*{{s\|\|Luke\|12\|47-48}}
	}}		}}
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	Why were Adam and Eve "not counted transgressors ''before'' eating the forbidden fruit, for failing to multiply?" The authors ask why ''this'' did not cause the Fall to happen.		Why were Adam and Eve "not counted transgressors ''before'' eating the forbidden fruit, for failing to multiply?" The authors ask why ''this'' did not cause the Fall to happen.
	\|authorsources=		\|authorsources=<br>
	}}		#}}
	{{misinformation\|This question could be asked with equal cogency of a creedal Christian. In the LDS view, Adam and Eve would not be condemned for something they were unable to do.}}		{{misinformation\|This question could be asked with equal cogency of a creedal Christian. In the LDS view, Adam and Eve would not be condemned for something they were unable to do.}}
	}}		}}

RogerNicholson at 03:00, 4 October 2017

2017-10-04T03:00:04Z

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	\|H=Response to claims in "Basics of Mormonism: Falling Upward" by Watchman Fellowship		\|H=Response to claims in "Basics of Mormonism: Falling Upward" by Watchman Fellowship
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	\|L1=		\|L1=Response to claim: The authors ask, if "death is the wages of sin," and the fall of Adam and Eve "was not actually sin, then why did it introduce death into the world?"
			\|L2=Response to claim: How did the transgression of Adam and Eve "introduce sin into the world?" How were mortality and a sinful world the result of a transgression rather than a sin?
			\|L3=Response to claim: The authors claim that if the transgression of Adam and Eve were "such a blessing," then they would have not felt "guilty and afraid" when God approached them in the Garden of Eden after they committed their transgression?
			\|L4=Response to claim: If the transgression of Adam and Eve resulted in physical and spiritual death, then why are we only subject to spiritual death for eternity if we do not repent?
			\|L5=Response to claim: Why were Adam and Eve "not counted transgressors before eating the forbidden fruit, for failing to multiply?" The authors ask why this did not cause the Fall to happen
	}}		}}
	</onlyinclude>		</onlyinclude>
	~~==Quick Navigation==~~
	*[[Countercult ministries/Watchman Fellowship/Section 4#Response to claim: The authors ask, if "death is the wages of sin," and the fall of Adam and Eve "was not actually sin, then why did it introduce death into the world?"\|Response to claim: The authors ask, if "death is the wages of sin," and the fall of Adam and Eve "was not actually sin, then why did it introduce death into the world?"]]
	*[[Countercult ministries/Watchman Fellowship/Section 4#Response to claim: How did the transgression of Adam and Eve "introduce sin into the world?" How were mortality and a sinful world the result of a transgression rather than a sin?\|Response to claim: How did the transgression of Adam and Eve "introduce sin into the world?" How were mortality and a sinful world the result of a transgression rather than a sin?]]
	*[[Countercult ministries/Watchman Fellowship/Section 4#Response to claim: The authors claim that if the transgression of Adam and Eve were "such a blessing," then they would have not felt "guilty and afraid" when God approached them in the Garden of Eden after they committed their transgression?\|Response to claim: The authors claim that if the transgression of Adam and Eve were "such a blessing," then they would have not felt "guilty and afraid" when God approached them in the Garden of Eden after they committed their transgression?]]
	*[[Countercult ministries/Watchman Fellowship/Section 4#Response to claim: If the transgression of Adam and Eve resulted in physical ''and'' spiritual death, then why are we ''only'' subject to spiritual death for eternity if we do not repent?\|Response to claim: If the transgression of Adam and Eve resulted in physical ''and'' spiritual death, then why are we ''only'' subject to spiritual death for eternity if we do not repent?]]
	*[[Countercult ministries/Watchman Fellowship/Section 4#Response to claim: Why were Adam and Eve "not counted transgressors ''before'' eating the forbidden fruit, for failing to multiply?" The authors ask why ''this'' did not cause the Fall to happen\|Response to claim: Why were Adam and Eve "not counted transgressors ''before'' eating the forbidden fruit, for failing to multiply?" The authors ask why ''this'' did not cause the Fall to happen]]

	~~{{parabreak}}~~
	~~<onlyinclude>~~
	'''Note''': This section is particularly naive in its ignorance of LDS scripture and doctrine. It also completely ignores the fact that the story of Adam and Eve has a symbolic component—Adam and Eve are used as figures or symbols to teach something universal about the nature of mortal life. This is done most fully in the LDS temple ceremony, which we will not discuss in a public forum. Some of these questions are more fully answered when one considers the symbolic import of the literal aspect of the story.		'''Note''': This section is particularly naive in its ignorance of LDS scripture and doctrine. It also completely ignores the fact that the story of Adam and Eve has a symbolic component—Adam and Eve are used as figures or symbols to teach something universal about the nature of mortal life. This is done most fully in the LDS temple ceremony, which we will not discuss in a public forum. Some of these questions are more fully answered when one considers the symbolic import of the literal aspect of the story.

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	~~</onlyinclude>~~
	{{endnotes sources}}		{{endnotes sources}}

RogerNicholson at 02:59, 4 October 2017

2017-10-04T02:59:01Z

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	\|H=Response to claims in "Basics of Mormonism: Falling Upward"		\|H=Response to claims in "Basics of Mormonism: Falling Upward"
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	\|T=Watchman Fellowship		\|T=Watchman Fellowship
	\|A=Timothy Oliver		\|A=Timothy Oliver
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			</onlyinclude>
	==Quick Navigation==		==Quick Navigation==
	*[[Countercult ministries/Watchman Fellowship/Section 4#Response to claim: The authors ask, if "death is the wages of sin," and the fall of Adam and Eve "was not actually sin, then why did it introduce death into the world?"\|Response to claim: The authors ask, if "death is the wages of sin," and the fall of Adam and Eve "was not actually sin, then why did it introduce death into the world?"]]		*[[Countercult ministries/Watchman Fellowship/Section 4#Response to claim: The authors ask, if "death is the wages of sin," and the fall of Adam and Eve "was not actually sin, then why did it introduce death into the world?"\|Response to claim: The authors ask, if "death is the wages of sin," and the fall of Adam and Eve "was not actually sin, then why did it introduce death into the world?"]]

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	*{{s\|\|Romans\|5\|12}}		*{{s\|\|Romans\|5\|12}}
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	{{misinformation\|The death referred to in Romans is a ''spiritual'' death, not a physical one.		{{misinformation\|The death referred to in Romans is a ''spiritual'' death, not a physical one.}}
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: If "the wages of sin is death" as described in Romans 6:23, and the fall of Adam and Eve was a transgression rather than a sin, then why did it introduce death into the world?}}		{{:Question: If "the wages of sin is death" as described in Romans 6:23, and the fall of Adam and Eve was a transgression rather than a sin, then why did it introduce death into the world?}}
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	{{misinformation\|It happened that way because God told them that it would.		{{misinformation\|It happened that way because God told them that it would.}}
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: How did the transgression of Adam and Eve introduce sin into the world?}}		{{:Question: How did the transgression of Adam and Eve introduce sin into the world?}}
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	{{misinformation\|Partaking of the fruit gave Adam and Eve a knowledge of good and evil, and so their moral awareness made them feel guilty for doing wrong		{{misinformation\|Partaking of the fruit gave Adam and Eve a knowledge of good and evil, and so their moral awareness made them feel guilty for doing wrong}}
	}}		}}
	{{:Question: If the transgression of Adam and Eve was actually a blessing for them, then why did they feel guilty and afraid when God approached them in the Garden of Eden after they committed their transgression?}}		{{:Question: If the transgression of Adam and Eve was actually a blessing for them, then why did they feel guilty and afraid when God approached them in the Garden of Eden after they committed their transgression?}}
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	*{{s\|\|Luke\|12\|47-48}}		*{{s\|\|Luke\|12\|47-48}}
	}}		}}
	{{misinformation\|We do not suffer eternal physical death for our sins and neither does Adam, for the same reason—the Atonement of Jesus Christ:		{{misinformation\|We do not suffer eternal physical death for our sins and neither does Adam, for the same reason—the Atonement of Jesus Christ:}}
	<blockquote>Adam spake unto the Lord, and said: Why is it that men must repent and be baptized in water? And the Lord said unto Adam: Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden. Hence came the saying abroad among the people, that the Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world. ({{s\|\|Moses\|6\|53-54}})</blockquote>		<blockquote>Adam spake unto the Lord, and said: Why is it that men must repent and be baptized in water? And the Lord said unto Adam: Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden. Hence came the saying abroad among the people, that the Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world. ({{s\|\|Moses\|6\|53-54}})</blockquote>
	*{{Detail\|Plan of salvation/Original sin\|l1=Original sin}}		*{{Detail\|Plan of salvation/Original sin\|l1=Original sin}}
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	{{misinformation\|This question could be asked with equal cogency of a creedal Christian. In the LDS view, Adam and Eve would not be condemned for something they were unable to do.		{{misinformation\|This question could be asked with equal cogency of a creedal Christian. In the LDS view, Adam and Eve would not be condemned for something they were unable to do.}}
	}}		}}

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RogerNicholson at 01:00, 10 June 2017

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	~~{{FAIRAnalysisHeader~~		\|A=Timothy Oliver
	\|~~title~~=Watchman Fellowship		\|<=[[../Section 3\|Claims made in "Mormonism Overview"]]
	\|~~author~~=Timothy Oliver		\|>=[[../Section 5\|Claims made in "A Miracle for Mormons - Forgiveness of Sins"]]
	\|~~noauthor=~~
	~~\|section=[[../\|Index]], Claims in "Basics of Mormonism: Falling Upward"~~
	~~\|previous~~=[[../Section 3\|Claims made in "Mormonism Overview"]]
	\|~~next~~=[[../Section 5\|Claims made in "A Miracle for Mormons - Forgiveness of Sins"]]
	~~\|notes={{AuthorsDisclaimer}}~~
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