https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/index.php?action=history&feed=atom&title=Book_of_Mormon_geography%2FModels%2FLimited%2FGoble_2004Book of Mormon geography/Models/Limited/Goble 2004 - Revision history2026-04-05T14:57:19ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.41.0https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/index.php?title=Book_of_Mormon_geography/Models/Limited/Goble_2004&diff=89640&oldid=prevEdGoble at 09:23, 11 June 20112011-06-11T09:23:58Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Edwin Goble was co-author of the book ''This Land: Zarahemla and the Nephite Nation'' in 2002. Goble previously believed in the general US Heartland model, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">now popularized by Rodney Meldrum.</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Edwin Goble was co-author of the book ''This Land: Zarahemla and the Nephite Nation'' in 2002. Goble previously believed in the general US Heartland model, that <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">placed Zarahemla </ins>in the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Midwestern US, and </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Cumorah </ins>of the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Nephite and Jaredite Destructions </ins>in <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">New York</ins>. Goble <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">later retracted that </ins>model, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">and now believes </ins>the Narrow Neck of Land <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">is Tehuantepec, </ins>that the Land Southward <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">was </ins>in Mesoamerica, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">and that </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Ancient </ins>Cumorah <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">is </ins>in New York. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">A statement in </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Levi Hancock Journal convinced Goble that Joseph Smith did not believe that Zarahemla was </ins>in the United States, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">and his initial </ins>beliefs <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">were built upon that premise</ins>. (See book entitled ''Resurrecting Cumorah'')</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Goble later became aware of the significance of Joseph Smith's statement in the Levi Hancock Journal during Zion's Camp. The statement seems to suggest that Joseph Smith believed </del>that <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">the area of the Zelph Mound </del>in <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Illinois was in a northern part of </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">land of Desolation mentioned in </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Book </del>of <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Mormon. This contradicts </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">central idea </del>in <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">the US Heartland Model</del>. Goble<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'s faith was shaken in the US Heartland </del>model<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. Goble realized the implication of that statement from Joseph Smith</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">that it actually pushed </del>the Narrow Neck of Land <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">into Mesoamerica. He ended up retracting his belief in the US Heartland model. He now believes in a model </del>that <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">places </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Book of Mormon </del>Land Southward in Mesoamerica, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">but with </del>the Cumorah <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">where the Nephites and Jaredites perished </del>in New York. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Therefore, a northern domain of </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Nephites existed </del>in the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Eastern </del>United States <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">where the Hopewell/Adena cultures existed anciently</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">according to Goble's </del>beliefs<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. Goble now believes the Narrow Neck of Land was Tehuantepec</del>. (See book entitled ''Resurrecting Cumorah'')</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
</table>EdGoblehttps://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/index.php?title=Book_of_Mormon_geography/Models/Limited/Goble_2004&diff=89630&oldid=prevEdGoble at 07:04, 11 June 20112011-06-11T07:04:41Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Edwin Goble was co-author of the book ''This Land: Zarahemla and the Nephite Nation'' in 2002. Goble previously believed in the general US Heartland model, now popularized by Rodney Meldrum.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Edwin Goble was co-author of the book ''This Land: Zarahemla and the Nephite Nation'' in 2002. Goble previously believed in the general US Heartland model, now popularized by Rodney Meldrum.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Goble later became aware of the significance of Joseph Smith's statement in the Levi Hancock Journal during Zion's Camp. The statement seems to suggest that Joseph Smith believed that the area of the Zelph Mound in Illinois was in a northern part of the land of Desolation mentioned in the Book of Mormon. This<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">, of course, </del>contradicts the central idea in the US Heartland Model. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">That model puts forth the belief that the Land of Zarahemla was in the Midwestern United States, relying on questionable statements that allege that Joseph Smith believed that Manti was in Missouri, and so forth. Those that continue to back the US Heartland Model must explain away or deny the significance of this statement of Joseph Smith if they are to maintain their belief. Recognizing that this was not rational, </del>Goble's faith was shaken in the US Heartland model. Goble realized the implication of that statement from Joseph Smith, that it actually pushed the Narrow Neck of Land into Mesoamerica. He ended up retracting his belief in the US Heartland model<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">.</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Goble later became aware of the significance of Joseph Smith's statement in the Levi Hancock Journal during Zion's Camp. The statement seems to suggest that Joseph Smith believed that the area of the Zelph Mound in Illinois was in a northern part of the land of Desolation mentioned in the Book of Mormon. This contradicts the central idea in the US Heartland Model. Goble's faith was shaken in the US Heartland model. Goble realized the implication of that statement from Joseph Smith, that it actually pushed the Narrow Neck of Land into Mesoamerica. He ended up retracting his belief in the US Heartland model. He <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">now believes </ins>in a model that <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">places </ins>the Book of Mormon Land Southward in <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Mesoamerica</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">but with </ins>the Cumorah <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">where </ins>the Nephites and <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Jaredites perished </ins>in New York. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Therefore</ins>, a <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">northern domain </ins>of the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Nephites existed </ins>in the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Eastern United States where </ins>the Hopewell/Adena cultures <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">existed anciently</ins>, according to Goble's <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">beliefs</ins>. Goble <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">now believes </ins>the Narrow Neck of Land <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">was </ins>Tehuantepec. (See book entitled ''Resurrecting Cumorah'')</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Goble calls his new model the Two-Heartland theory. The new model relies on the Book of Mormon text, according to his understanding of it</del>. He <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">recognizes that many will disagree with this interpretation. Now he says it doesn't matter what Joseph Smith believed, only what the Book of Mormon text says. Goble focuses on the fact that the Book of Mormon mentions an exceedingly great distance between the Land of Zarahemla and the Large Bodies of Water </del>in <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">the Land of Many Waters to the North. Most Mesoamerican theorists believe this exceedingly great distance is much shorter of </del>a <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">distance, preferring an interpretation that identifies these large bodies of water as something more southward. Goble interprets it the traditional way, identifying them as the Great Lakes.</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Therefore, in this </del>model<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">, it is limited in scope in the sense that most of the Book of Mormon History takes place in Mesoamerica, and it is larger in scope only later in their history </del>that the Book of Mormon <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">peoples spread outward to the North. Therefore, in this model, there are two heartlands, one in the </del>Land Southward <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">comprising the heartland of the Preclassic Maya, and one </del>in <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">the Land Northward</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">comprising the heartland of the Hopewell/Adena, as archaeology has shown, in Illinois and Ohio. This emphasis on </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">second heartland and a </del>Cumorah <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">in New York in </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">theory is a hold-over from his previous beliefs in the US Heartland theory. So this theory is a hybrid between the limited Mesoamerican theory and the Great Lakes models, but identifies the Hopewell/Adena as </del>Nephites and <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Lamanites that migrated northward. This is not a Hemispheric theory, because it does not place the Narrow Neck at Panama. It focuses on Limited Geography during the time periods where there was a limited geography, confined to Mesoamerica. It focuses on an expanded geography during the times that there actually was a more expanded geography. It focuses on the archaeological heartlands of the ancient cultures as the archaeologists have identified them, and does not push the naive idea that there were dense populations spread throughout the continents of the Americas. It is true that this is somewhat of a resurrection of the older external model of McGavin and Bean, who advocated a Land Southward </del>in <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Mesoamerica, and a </del>New York <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Cumorah</del>. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">The difference is that this is more focused on the modern archaeology of the heartlands of both Mesoamerica and North America</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">and dismisses the old unsubstantiated traditions that McGavin and Bean regurgitate in their book.</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Goble claims that the plausibility of </del>a <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">New York Cumorah actually comes from the fact that it is in the backyard </del>of the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Hopewell/Adena cultures. Goble says that most critics focus on solely the archaeology of New York state and say there were no high cultures </del>in the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">area. But </del>the Hopewell/Adena <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">were in the area, he claims. Mesoamerican advocates still say that these </del>cultures <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">do not represent high cultures according to the Mesoamerican standards. Be that as it may, they are definitely what one would rationally expect in the Land Northward when the population in the Land Northward of the Book of Mormon was more spread out and more sparsely populated than the dense centers of the south. While Mesoamerican advocates say that the distance between Mesoamerica and the New York Cumorah is a weakness, Goble claims that is precisely what lends to its plausibility because of the exceeding distance as mentioned in the text. And he says, if we are looking to fulfill the requirements of the text, why then should we not interpret it literally, that there was an exceedingly great distance? We interpret the text as a limited geography beneath the neck of land, because that is what the text calls for. It calls for an area with an hourglass shape with cities in a limited area beneath that neck. Why then, can't the word exceedingly mean precisely what it says, and large bodies of water be large bodies of water? If Mesoamerica was such a high civilization that we know it was, and we find so much Mesoamerican influence in North America, as we do</del>, according to <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">archaeology, then why is it such a forbidden idea that the Great Lakes area was full of Mesoamerican transplants mixed in with others? And then, why should these Mesoamericans not have been Nephites that built the Hopewell centers?</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Most critics of the New York Cumorah say the hill is archaeologically clean. Goble says that is immaterial because it is a short term battle site which has been picked over, not a long term settlement site. Or in other words, it is the place where people fled to, not where they lived for an extended period of time, and it is well within the domain of the Hopewell Interaction Sphere. In </del>Goble's <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">view, detailed archaeological digs have not been done at the New York Cumorah site, and until such things are done, dismissal of the site only on the basis of empty statements like "it is archaeologically clean" do not fly</del>. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">It is only obvious that any artifacts on the surface have been removed, if old accounts are to be trusted, which claim just that. It's not that the old statements in themselves are to be trusted. But it shows the necessity of digging down deeper to get to the heart of the matter. If nothing is found after a real archaeological dig done there, then, </del>Goble <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">says, he can simply retract this theory too. The Nephites had already had population centers in </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Land Northward, and those in Mesoamerica had to flee to those for protection. And so, they were already in the area by the time they fled to New York.</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">The model does not attempt to narrow down any specifics except for the general areas, a </del>Narrow Neck of Land <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">at </del>Tehuantepec<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">, and the traditional Cumorah in New York</del>.</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>(See book entitled ''Resurrecting Cumorah'')</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
</table>EdGoblehttps://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/index.php?title=Book_of_Mormon_geography/Models/Limited/Goble_2004&diff=82336&oldid=prevEdGoble at 00:58, 30 January 20112011-01-30T00:58:01Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The model does not attempt to narrow down any specifics except for the general areas, a Narrow Neck of Land at Tehuantepec, and the traditional Cumorah in New York.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The model does not attempt to narrow down any specifics except for the general areas, a Narrow Neck of Land at Tehuantepec, and the traditional Cumorah in New York.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>(See <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">unpublished </del>book <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">manuscript </del>''Resurrecting Cumorah'')</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>(See book <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">entitled </ins>''Resurrecting Cumorah'')</div></td></tr>
</table>EdGoblehttps://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/index.php?title=Book_of_Mormon_geography/Models/Limited/Goble_2004&diff=80922&oldid=prevEdGoble at 06:55, 8 December 20102010-12-08T06:55:23Z<p></p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 06:55, 8 December 2010</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Goble claims that the plausibility of a New York Cumorah actually comes from the fact that it is in the backyard of the Hopewell/Adena cultures. Goble says that most critics focus on solely the archaeology of New York state and say there were no high cultures in the area. But the Hopewell/Adena were in the area, he claims. Mesoamerican advocates still say that these cultures do not represent high cultures according to the Mesoamerican standards. Be that as it may, they are definitely what one would rationally expect in the Land Northward when the population in the Land Northward of the Book of Mormon was more spread out and more sparsely populated than the dense centers of the south. While Mesoamerican advocates say that the distance between Mesoamerica and the New York Cumorah is a weakness, Goble claims that is precisely what lends to its plausibility because of the exceeding distance as mentioned in the text. And he says, if we are looking to fulfill the requirements of the text, why then should we not interpret it literally, that there was an exceedingly great distance? We interpret the text as a limited geography beneath the neck of land, because that is what the text calls for. It calls for an area with an hourglass shape with cities in a limited area beneath that neck. Why then, can't the word exceedingly mean precisely what it says, and large bodies of water be large bodies of water? If Mesoamerica was such a high civilization that we know it was, and we find so much Mesoamerican influence in North America, as we do, according to archaeology, then why is it such a forbidden idea that the Great Lakes area was full of Mesoamerican transplants mixed in with others? And then, why should these Mesoamericans not have been Nephites that built the Hopewell centers?</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Goble claims that the plausibility of a New York Cumorah actually comes from the fact that it is in the backyard of the Hopewell/Adena cultures. Goble says that most critics focus on solely the archaeology of New York state and say there were no high cultures in the area. But the Hopewell/Adena were in the area, he claims. Mesoamerican advocates still say that these cultures do not represent high cultures according to the Mesoamerican standards. Be that as it may, they are definitely what one would rationally expect in the Land Northward when the population in the Land Northward of the Book of Mormon was more spread out and more sparsely populated than the dense centers of the south. While Mesoamerican advocates say that the distance between Mesoamerica and the New York Cumorah is a weakness, Goble claims that is precisely what lends to its plausibility because of the exceeding distance as mentioned in the text. And he says, if we are looking to fulfill the requirements of the text, why then should we not interpret it literally, that there was an exceedingly great distance? We interpret the text as a limited geography beneath the neck of land, because that is what the text calls for. It calls for an area with an hourglass shape with cities in a limited area beneath that neck. Why then, can't the word exceedingly mean precisely what it says, and large bodies of water be large bodies of water? If Mesoamerica was such a high civilization that we know it was, and we find so much Mesoamerican influence in North America, as we do, according to archaeology, then why is it such a forbidden idea that the Great Lakes area was full of Mesoamerican transplants mixed in with others? And then, why should these Mesoamericans not have been Nephites that built the Hopewell centers?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Most critics of the New York Cumorah say the hill is archaeologically clean. Goble says that is immaterial because it is a short term battle site which has been picked over, not a long term settlement site. Or in other words, it is the place where people fled to, not where they lived for an extended period of time, and it is well within the domain of the Hopewell Interaction Sphere. In Goble's view, detailed archaeological digs have not been done at the New York Cumorah site, and until such things are done, dismissal of the site only on the basis of empty statements like "it is archaeologically clean" <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">doesn't </del>fly. It is only obvious that any artifacts on the surface have been removed, if old accounts are to be trusted, which claim just that. It's not that the old statements in themselves are to be trusted. But it shows the necessity of digging down deeper to get to the heart of the matter. If nothing is found after a real archaeological dig done there, then, Goble says, he can simply retract this theory too. The Nephites had already had population centers in the Land Northward, and those in Mesoamerica had to flee to those for protection. And so, they were already in the area by the time they fled to New York.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Most critics of the New York Cumorah say the hill is archaeologically clean. Goble says that is immaterial because it is a short term battle site which has been picked over, not a long term settlement site. Or in other words, it is the place where people fled to, not where they lived for an extended period of time, and it is well within the domain of the Hopewell Interaction Sphere. In Goble's view, detailed archaeological digs have not been done at the New York Cumorah site, and until such things are done, dismissal of the site only on the basis of empty statements like "it is archaeologically clean" <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">do not </ins>fly. It is only obvious that any artifacts on the surface have been removed, if old accounts are to be trusted, which claim just that. It's not that the old statements in themselves are to be trusted. But it shows the necessity of digging down deeper to get to the heart of the matter. If nothing is found after a real archaeological dig done there, then, Goble says, he can simply retract this theory too. The Nephites had already had population centers in the Land Northward, and those in Mesoamerica had to flee to those for protection. And so, they were already in the area by the time they fled to New York.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The model does not attempt to narrow down any specifics except for the general areas, a Narrow Neck of Land at Tehuantepec, and the traditional Cumorah in New York.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The model does not attempt to narrow down any specifics except for the general areas, a Narrow Neck of Land at Tehuantepec, and the traditional Cumorah in New York.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>(See unpublished book manuscript ''Resurrecting Cumorah'')</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>(See unpublished book manuscript ''Resurrecting Cumorah'')</div></td></tr>
</table>EdGoblehttps://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/index.php?title=Book_of_Mormon_geography/Models/Limited/Goble_2004&diff=80921&oldid=prevEdGoble at 06:41, 8 December 20102010-12-08T06:41:39Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 06:41, 8 December 2010</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l11">Line 11:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Therefore, in this model, it is limited in scope in the sense that most of the Book of Mormon History takes place in Mesoamerica, and it is larger in scope only later in their history that the Book of Mormon peoples spread outward to the North. Therefore, in this model, there are two heartlands, one in the Land Southward comprising the heartland of the Preclassic Maya, and one in the Land Northward, comprising the heartland of the Hopewell/Adena, as archaeology has shown, in Illinois and Ohio. This emphasis on the second heartland and a Cumorah in New York in the theory is a hold-over from his previous beliefs in the US Heartland theory. So this theory is a hybrid between the limited Mesoamerican theory and the Great Lakes models, but identifies the Hopewell/Adena as Nephites and Lamanites that migrated northward. This is not a Hemispheric theory, because it does not place the Narrow Neck at Panama. It focuses on Limited Geography during the time periods where there was a limited geography, confined to Mesoamerica. It focuses on an expanded geography during the times that there actually was a more expanded geography. It focuses on the archaeological heartlands of the ancient cultures as the archaeologists have identified them, and does not push the naive idea that there were dense populations spread throughout the continents of the Americas. It is true that this is somewhat of a resurrection of the older external model of McGavin and Bean, who advocated a Land Southward in Mesoamerica, and a New York Cumorah. The difference is that this is more focused on the modern archaeology of the heartlands of both Mesoamerica and North America, and dismisses the old unsubstantiated traditions that McGavin and Bean regurgitate in their book.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Therefore, in this model, it is limited in scope in the sense that most of the Book of Mormon History takes place in Mesoamerica, and it is larger in scope only later in their history that the Book of Mormon peoples spread outward to the North. Therefore, in this model, there are two heartlands, one in the Land Southward comprising the heartland of the Preclassic Maya, and one in the Land Northward, comprising the heartland of the Hopewell/Adena, as archaeology has shown, in Illinois and Ohio. This emphasis on the second heartland and a Cumorah in New York in the theory is a hold-over from his previous beliefs in the US Heartland theory. So this theory is a hybrid between the limited Mesoamerican theory and the Great Lakes models, but identifies the Hopewell/Adena as Nephites and Lamanites that migrated northward. This is not a Hemispheric theory, because it does not place the Narrow Neck at Panama. It focuses on Limited Geography during the time periods where there was a limited geography, confined to Mesoamerica. It focuses on an expanded geography during the times that there actually was a more expanded geography. It focuses on the archaeological heartlands of the ancient cultures as the archaeologists have identified them, and does not push the naive idea that there were dense populations spread throughout the continents of the Americas. It is true that this is somewhat of a resurrection of the older external model of McGavin and Bean, who advocated a Land Southward in Mesoamerica, and a New York Cumorah. The difference is that this is more focused on the modern archaeology of the heartlands of both Mesoamerica and North America, and dismisses the old unsubstantiated traditions that McGavin and Bean regurgitate in their book.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Goble claims that the plausibility of a New York Cumorah actually comes from the fact that it is in the backyard of the Hopewell/Adena cultures. Goble says that most critics focus on solely the archaeology of New York state and say there were no high cultures in the area. But the Hopewell/Adena were in the area, he claims. Mesoamerican advocates still say that these cultures do not represent high cultures according to the Mesoamerican standards. Be that as it may, they are definitely what one would rationally expect in the Land Northward when the population in the Land Northward of the Book of Mormon was more spread out. While Mesoamerican advocates say that the distance between Mesoamerica and the New York Cumorah is a weakness, Goble claims that is precisely what lends to its plausibility because of the exceeding distance as mentioned in the text. And he says, if we are looking to fulfill the requirements of the text, why then should we not interpret it literally, that there was an exceedingly great distance? We interpret the text as a limited geography beneath the neck of land, because that is what the text calls for. It calls for an area with an hourglass shape with cities in a limited area beneath that neck. Why then, can't the word exceedingly mean precisely what it says, and large bodies of water be large bodies of water? If Mesoamerica was such a high civilization that we know it was, and we find so much Mesoamerican influence in North America, as we do, according to archaeology, then why is it such a forbidden idea that the Great Lakes area was full of Mesoamerican transplants mixed in with others? And then, why should these Mesoamericans not have been Nephites that built the Hopewell centers?</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Goble claims that the plausibility of a New York Cumorah actually comes from the fact that it is in the backyard of the Hopewell/Adena cultures. Goble says that most critics focus on solely the archaeology of New York state and say there were no high cultures in the area. But the Hopewell/Adena were in the area, he claims. Mesoamerican advocates still say that these cultures do not represent high cultures according to the Mesoamerican standards. Be that as it may, they are definitely what one would rationally expect in the Land Northward when the population in the Land Northward of the Book of Mormon was more spread out <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">and more sparsely populated than the dense centers of the south</ins>. While Mesoamerican advocates say that the distance between Mesoamerica and the New York Cumorah is a weakness, Goble claims that is precisely what lends to its plausibility because of the exceeding distance as mentioned in the text. And he says, if we are looking to fulfill the requirements of the text, why then should we not interpret it literally, that there was an exceedingly great distance? We interpret the text as a limited geography beneath the neck of land, because that is what the text calls for. It calls for an area with an hourglass shape with cities in a limited area beneath that neck. Why then, can't the word exceedingly mean precisely what it says, and large bodies of water be large bodies of water? If Mesoamerica was such a high civilization that we know it was, and we find so much Mesoamerican influence in North America, as we do, according to archaeology, then why is it such a forbidden idea that the Great Lakes area was full of Mesoamerican transplants mixed in with others? And then, why should these Mesoamericans not have been Nephites that built the Hopewell centers?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Most critics of the New York Cumorah say the hill is archaeologically clean. Goble says that is immaterial because it is a short term battle site which has been picked over, not a long term settlement site. Or in other words, it is the place where people fled to, not where they lived for an extended period of time, and it is well within the domain of the Hopewell Interaction Sphere. In Goble's view, detailed archaeological digs have not been done at the New York Cumorah site, and until such things are done, dismissal of the site only on the basis of empty statements like "it is archaeologically clean" doesn't fly. It is only obvious that any artifacts on the surface have been removed, if old accounts are to be trusted, which claim just that. It's not that the old statements in themselves are to be trusted. But it shows the necessity of digging down deeper to get to the heart of the matter. If nothing is found after a real archaeological dig done there, then, Goble says, he can simply retract this theory too. The Nephites had already had population centers in the Land Northward, and those in Mesoamerica had to flee to those for protection. And so, they were already in the area by the time they fled to New York.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Most critics of the New York Cumorah say the hill is archaeologically clean. Goble says that is immaterial because it is a short term battle site which has been picked over, not a long term settlement site. Or in other words, it is the place where people fled to, not where they lived for an extended period of time, and it is well within the domain of the Hopewell Interaction Sphere. In Goble's view, detailed archaeological digs have not been done at the New York Cumorah site, and until such things are done, dismissal of the site only on the basis of empty statements like "it is archaeologically clean" doesn't fly. It is only obvious that any artifacts on the surface have been removed, if old accounts are to be trusted, which claim just that. It's not that the old statements in themselves are to be trusted. But it shows the necessity of digging down deeper to get to the heart of the matter. If nothing is found after a real archaeological dig done there, then, Goble says, he can simply retract this theory too. The Nephites had already had population centers in the Land Northward, and those in Mesoamerica had to flee to those for protection. And so, they were already in the area by the time they fled to New York.</div></td></tr>
</table>EdGoblehttps://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/index.php?title=Book_of_Mormon_geography/Models/Limited/Goble_2004&diff=80920&oldid=prevEdGoble at 06:37, 8 December 20102010-12-08T06:37:27Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 06:37, 8 December 2010</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l9">Line 9:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Goble calls his new model the Two-Heartland theory. The new model relies on the Book of Mormon text, according to his understanding of it. He recognizes that many will disagree with this interpretation. Now he says it doesn't matter what Joseph Smith believed, only what the Book of Mormon text says. Goble focuses on the fact that the Book of Mormon mentions an exceedingly great distance between the Land of Zarahemla and the Large Bodies of Water in the Land of Many Waters to the North. Most Mesoamerican theorists believe this exceedingly great distance is much shorter of a distance, preferring an interpretation that identifies these large bodies of water as something more southward. Goble interprets it the traditional way, identifying them as the Great Lakes.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Goble calls his new model the Two-Heartland theory. The new model relies on the Book of Mormon text, according to his understanding of it. He recognizes that many will disagree with this interpretation. Now he says it doesn't matter what Joseph Smith believed, only what the Book of Mormon text says. Goble focuses on the fact that the Book of Mormon mentions an exceedingly great distance between the Land of Zarahemla and the Large Bodies of Water in the Land of Many Waters to the North. Most Mesoamerican theorists believe this exceedingly great distance is much shorter of a distance, preferring an interpretation that identifies these large bodies of water as something more southward. Goble interprets it the traditional way, identifying them as the Great Lakes.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Therefore, in this model, it is limited in scope in the sense that most of the Book of Mormon History takes place in Mesoamerica, and it is larger in scope only later in their history that the Book of Mormon peoples spread outward to the North. Therefore, in this model, there are two heartlands, one in the Land Southward comprising the heartland of the Preclassic Maya, and one in the Land Northward, comprising the heartland of the Hopewell/Adena, as archaeology has shown, in Illinois and Ohio. This emphasis on the second heartland and a Cumorah in New York in the theory is a hold-over from his previous beliefs in the US Heartland theory. So this theory is a hybrid between the limited Mesoamerican theory and the Great Lakes models, but identifies the Hopewell/Adena as Nephites and Lamanites that migrated northward. This is not a Hemispheric theory, because it does not place the Narrow Neck at Panama. It focuses on Limited Geography during the time periods where there was a limited geography, confined to Mesoamerica. It focuses on an expanded geography during the times that there actually was a more expanded geography. It focuses on the archaeological heartlands of the ancient cultures as the archaeologists have identified them, and does not push the naive idea that there were dense populations spread throughout the continents of the Americas.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Therefore, in this model, it is limited in scope in the sense that most of the Book of Mormon History takes place in Mesoamerica, and it is larger in scope only later in their history that the Book of Mormon peoples spread outward to the North. Therefore, in this model, there are two heartlands, one in the Land Southward comprising the heartland of the Preclassic Maya, and one in the Land Northward, comprising the heartland of the Hopewell/Adena, as archaeology has shown, in Illinois and Ohio. This emphasis on the second heartland and a Cumorah in New York in the theory is a hold-over from his previous beliefs in the US Heartland theory. So this theory is a hybrid between the limited Mesoamerican theory and the Great Lakes models, but identifies the Hopewell/Adena as Nephites and Lamanites that migrated northward. This is not a Hemispheric theory, because it does not place the Narrow Neck at Panama. It focuses on Limited Geography during the time periods where there was a limited geography, confined to Mesoamerica. It focuses on an expanded geography during the times that there actually was a more expanded geography. It focuses on the archaeological heartlands of the ancient cultures as the archaeologists have identified them, and does not push the naive idea that there were dense populations spread throughout the continents of the Americas<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. It is true that this is somewhat of a resurrection of the older external model of McGavin and Bean, who advocated a Land Southward in Mesoamerica, and a New York Cumorah. The difference is that this is more focused on the modern archaeology of the heartlands of both Mesoamerica and North America, and dismisses the old unsubstantiated traditions that McGavin and Bean regurgitate in their book</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Goble claims that the plausibility of a New York Cumorah actually comes from the fact that it is in the backyard of the Hopewell/Adena cultures. Goble says that most critics focus on solely the archaeology of New York state and say there were no high cultures in the area. But the Hopewell/Adena were in the area, he claims. Mesoamerican advocates still say that these cultures do not represent high cultures according to the Mesoamerican standards. Be that as it may, they are definitely what one would rationally expect in the Land Northward when the population in the Land Northward of the Book of Mormon was more spread out. While Mesoamerican advocates say that the distance between Mesoamerica and the New York Cumorah is a weakness, Goble claims that is precisely what lends to its plausibility because of the exceeding distance as mentioned in the text. And he says, if we are looking to fulfill the requirements of the text, why then should we not interpret it literally, that there was an exceedingly great distance? We interpret the text as a limited geography beneath the neck of land, because that is what the text calls for. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">He asks</del>, why is it that <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">we </del>should not <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">interpret </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">phrase exceedingly great distance literally</del>? </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Goble claims that the plausibility of a New York Cumorah actually comes from the fact that it is in the backyard of the Hopewell/Adena cultures. Goble says that most critics focus on solely the archaeology of New York state and say there were no high cultures in the area. But the Hopewell/Adena were in the area, he claims. Mesoamerican advocates still say that these cultures do not represent high cultures according to the Mesoamerican standards. Be that as it may, they are definitely what one would rationally expect in the Land Northward when the population in the Land Northward of the Book of Mormon was more spread out. While Mesoamerican advocates say that the distance between Mesoamerica and the New York Cumorah is a weakness, Goble claims that is precisely what lends to its plausibility because of the exceeding distance as mentioned in the text. And he says, if we are looking to fulfill the requirements of the text, why then should we not interpret it literally, that there was an exceedingly great distance? We interpret the text as a limited geography beneath the neck of land, because that is what the text calls for. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">It calls for an area with an hourglass shape with cities in a limited area beneath that neck. Why then, can't the word exceedingly mean precisely what it says, and large bodies of water be large bodies of water? If Mesoamerica was such a high civilization that we know it was, and we find so much Mesoamerican influence in North America</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">as we do, according to archaeology, then </ins>why is it <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">such a forbidden idea </ins>that <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">the Great Lakes area was full of Mesoamerican transplants mixed in with others? And then, why </ins>should <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">these Mesoamericans </ins>not <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">have been Nephites that built </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Hopewell centers</ins>?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Most critics of the New York Cumorah say the hill is archaeologically clean. Goble says that is immaterial because it is a short term battle site which has been picked over, not a long term settlement site. Or in other words, it is the place where people fled to, not where they lived for an extended period of time, and it is well within the domain of the Hopewell Interaction Sphere. In Goble's view, detailed archaeological digs have not been done at the New York Cumorah site. It is only obvious that any artifacts on the surface have been removed, if old accounts are to be trusted. The Nephites had already <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">been </del>in the Land Northward <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">for some time</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">fleeing </del>to <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">their population centers there </del>for protection. And so, they were already in the area by the time they fled to New York.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Most critics of the New York Cumorah say the hill is archaeologically clean. Goble says that is immaterial because it is a short term battle site which has been picked over, not a long term settlement site. Or in other words, it is the place where people fled to, not where they lived for an extended period of time, and it is well within the domain of the Hopewell Interaction Sphere. In Goble's view, detailed archaeological digs have not been done at the New York Cumorah site<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">, and until such things are done, dismissal of the site only on the basis of empty statements like "it is archaeologically clean" doesn't fly</ins>. It is only obvious that any artifacts on the surface have been removed, if old accounts are to be trusted<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">, which claim just that. It's not that the old statements in themselves are to be trusted. But it shows the necessity of digging down deeper to get to the heart of the matter. If nothing is found after a real archaeological dig done there, then, Goble says, he can simply retract this theory too</ins>. The Nephites had already <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">had population centers </ins>in the Land Northward, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">and those in Mesoamerica had </ins>to <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">flee to those </ins>for protection. And so, they were already in the area by the time they fled to New York.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The model does not attempt to narrow down any specifics except for the general areas, a Narrow Neck of Land at Tehuantepec, and the traditional Cumorah in New York.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The model does not attempt to narrow down any specifics except for the general areas, a Narrow Neck of Land at Tehuantepec, and the traditional Cumorah in New York.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>(See unpublished book manuscript ''Resurrecting Cumorah'')</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>(See unpublished book manuscript ''Resurrecting Cumorah'')</div></td></tr>
</table>EdGoblehttps://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/index.php?title=Book_of_Mormon_geography/Models/Limited/Goble_2004&diff=80906&oldid=prevEdGoble at 06:15, 6 December 20102010-12-06T06:15:20Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 06:15, 6 December 2010</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Edwin Goble was co-author of the book ''This Land: Zarahemla and the Nephite Nation'' in 2002. Goble previously believed in the general US Heartland model, now popularized by Rodney Meldrum.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Edwin Goble was co-author of the book ''This Land: Zarahemla and the Nephite Nation'' in 2002. Goble previously believed in the general US Heartland model, now popularized by Rodney Meldrum.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Understanding </del>the significance of Joseph Smith's statement in the Levi Hancock Journal during Zion's Camp that the area was Desolation in the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Land Northward</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">not </del>the Land of Zarahemla in Joseph Smith<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'s mind</del>, Goble's faith was shaken in the US Heartland model. Goble realized the implication of that statement from Joseph Smith, that it actually pushed the Narrow Neck of Land into Mesoamerica. He ended up retracting the US Heartland model<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">, because it entirely relied on what he previously thought Joseph Smith believed</del>.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Goble later became aware of </ins>the significance of Joseph Smith's statement in the Levi Hancock Journal during Zion's Camp<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. The statement seems to suggest that Joseph Smith believed </ins>that the area <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">of the Zelph Mound in Illinois </ins>was <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">in a northern part of the land of </ins>Desolation <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">mentioned </ins>in the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Book of Mormon. This, of course</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">contradicts the central idea in the US Heartland Model. That model puts forth the belief that </ins>the Land of Zarahemla <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">was </ins>in <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">the Midwestern United States, relying on questionable statements that allege that </ins>Joseph Smith <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">believed that Manti was in Missouri, and so forth. Those that continue to back the US Heartland Model must explain away or deny the significance of this statement of Joseph Smith if they are to maintain their belief. Recognizing that this was not rational</ins>, Goble's faith was shaken in the US Heartland model. Goble realized the implication of that statement from Joseph Smith, that it actually pushed the Narrow Neck of Land into Mesoamerica. He ended up retracting <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">his belief in </ins>the US Heartland model.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Goble calls his new model the Two-Heartland theory. The new model relies on the Book of Mormon text. Now he says it doesn't matter what Joseph Smith believed, only what the Book of Mormon text says. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">The primary disagreement with other Mesoamerican models is </del>that the Book of Mormon mentions an exceedingly great distance between the Land of Zarahemla and the Large Bodies of Water in the Land of Many Waters to the North. Most Mesoamerican theorists believe this exceedingly great distance is much shorter of a distance. Goble interprets it the traditional way.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Goble calls his new model the Two-Heartland theory. The new model relies on the Book of Mormon text<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">, according to his understanding of it. He recognizes that many will disagree with this interpretation</ins>. Now he says it doesn't matter what Joseph Smith believed, only what the Book of Mormon text says. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Goble focuses on the fact </ins>that the Book of Mormon mentions an exceedingly great distance between the Land of Zarahemla and the Large Bodies of Water in the Land of Many Waters to the North. Most Mesoamerican theorists believe this exceedingly great distance is much shorter of a distance<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">, preferring an interpretation that identifies these large bodies of water as something more southward</ins>. Goble interprets it the traditional way<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">, identifying them as the Great Lakes</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Therefore, in this model, it is limited in scope in the sense that most of the Book of Mormon History takes place in Mesoamerica, and it is larger in scope only later in their history that the Book of Mormon peoples spread outward to the North. Therefore, in this model, there are two heartlands, one in the Land Southward comprising the heartland of the Preclassic Maya, and one in the Land Northward, comprising the heartland of the Hopewell/Adena, as archaeology has shown, in Illinois and Ohio. This emphasis on the second heartland and a Cumorah in New York in the theory is a hold-over from his previous beliefs in the US Heartland theory.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Therefore, in this model, it is limited in scope in the sense that most of the Book of Mormon History takes place in Mesoamerica, and it is larger in scope only later in their history that the Book of Mormon peoples spread outward to the North. Therefore, in this model, there are two heartlands, one in the Land Southward comprising the heartland of the Preclassic Maya, and one in the Land Northward, comprising the heartland of the Hopewell/Adena, as archaeology has shown, in Illinois and Ohio. This emphasis on the second heartland and a Cumorah in New York in the theory is a hold-over from his previous beliefs in the US Heartland theory<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. So this theory is a hybrid between the limited Mesoamerican theory and the Great Lakes models, but identifies the Hopewell/Adena as Nephites and Lamanites that migrated northward. This is not a Hemispheric theory, because it does not place the Narrow Neck at Panama. It focuses on Limited Geography during the time periods where there was a limited geography, confined to Mesoamerica. It focuses on an expanded geography during the times that there actually was a more expanded geography. It focuses on the archaeological heartlands of the ancient cultures as the archaeologists have identified them, and does not push the naive idea that there were dense populations spread throughout the continents of the Americas</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Goble claims that the plausibility of a New York Cumorah actually comes from the fact that it is in the backyard of the Hopewell/Adena cultures. Goble says that most critics focus on solely the archaeology of New York state and say there were no high cultures in the area. But the Hopewell/Adena were in the area, he claims. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">The </del>distance <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">from </del>Mesoamerica, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">he </del>claims<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">, </del>is <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">paradoxically </del>what lends to its plausibility because of the exceeding distance as mentioned in the text, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">contrary </del>to the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">fact </del>that that is what <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">most critics of </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">New York Cumorah theory focus on in their claims </del>for <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">the lack of plausibility of the site</del>. Most critics of the New York Cumorah say the hill is archaeologically clean. Goble says that is immaterial because it is a short term battle site which has been picked over, not a long term settlement site<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">, or </del>in other words, it is the place where people fled to, not where they lived for an extended period of time, and it is well within the domain of the Hopewell Interaction Sphere. In Goble's view, detailed archaeological digs have not been done at the New York Cumorah site. It is only obvious that any artifacts on the surface have been removed, if old accounts are to be trusted, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">according </del>to <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Goble</del>.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Goble claims that the plausibility of a New York Cumorah actually comes from the fact that it is in the backyard of the Hopewell/Adena cultures. Goble says that most critics focus on solely the archaeology of New York state and say there were no high cultures in the area. But the Hopewell/Adena were in the area, he claims. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Mesoamerican advocates still say that these cultures do not represent high cultures according to the Mesoamerican standards. Be that as it may, they are definitely what one would rationally expect in the Land Northward when the population in the Land Northward of the Book of Mormon was more spread out. While Mesoamerican advocates say that the </ins>distance <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">between </ins>Mesoamerica <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">and the New York Cumorah is a weakness</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Goble </ins>claims <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">that </ins>is <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">precisely </ins>what lends to its plausibility because of the exceeding distance as mentioned in the text<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. And he says</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">if we are looking </ins>to <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">fulfill the requirements of </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">text, why then should we not interpret it literally, </ins>that <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">there was an exceedingly great distance? We interpret the text as a limited geography beneath the neck of land, because </ins>that is what the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">text calls </ins>for. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">He asks, why is it that we should not interpret the phrase exceedingly great distance literally? </ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Most critics of the New York Cumorah say the hill is archaeologically clean. Goble says that is immaterial because it is a short term battle site which has been picked over, not a long term settlement site<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. Or </ins>in other words, it is the place where people fled to, not where they lived for an extended period of time, and it is well within the domain of the Hopewell Interaction Sphere. In Goble's view, detailed archaeological digs have not been done at the New York Cumorah site. It is only obvious that any artifacts on the surface have been removed, if old accounts are to be trusted<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. The Nephites had already been in the Land Northward for some time, fleeing to their population centers there for protection. And so</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">they were already in the area by the time they fled </ins>to <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">New York</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The model does not attempt to narrow down any specifics except for the general areas, a Narrow Neck of Land at Tehuantepec, and the traditional Cumorah in New York.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The model does not attempt to narrow down any specifics except for the general areas, a Narrow Neck of Land at Tehuantepec, and the traditional Cumorah in New York.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>(See unpublished book manuscript ''Resurrecting Cumorah'')</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>(See unpublished book manuscript ''Resurrecting Cumorah'')</div></td></tr>
</table>EdGoblehttps://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/index.php?title=Book_of_Mormon_geography/Models/Limited/Goble_2004&diff=79365&oldid=prevEdGoble at 23:14, 2 September 20102010-09-02T23:14:56Z<p></p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
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<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 23:14, 2 September 2010</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l11">Line 11:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 11:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Therefore, in this model, it is limited in scope in the sense that most of the Book of Mormon History takes place in Mesoamerica, and it is larger in scope only later in their history that the Book of Mormon peoples spread outward to the North. Therefore, in this model, there are two heartlands, one in the Land Southward comprising the heartland of the Preclassic Maya, and one in the Land Northward, comprising the heartland of the Hopewell/Adena, as archaeology has shown, in Illinois and Ohio. This emphasis on the second heartland and a Cumorah in New York in the theory is a hold-over from his previous beliefs in the US Heartland theory.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Therefore, in this model, it is limited in scope in the sense that most of the Book of Mormon History takes place in Mesoamerica, and it is larger in scope only later in their history that the Book of Mormon peoples spread outward to the North. Therefore, in this model, there are two heartlands, one in the Land Southward comprising the heartland of the Preclassic Maya, and one in the Land Northward, comprising the heartland of the Hopewell/Adena, as archaeology has shown, in Illinois and Ohio. This emphasis on the second heartland and a Cumorah in New York in the theory is a hold-over from his previous beliefs in the US Heartland theory.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Goble claims that the plausibility of a New York Cumorah actually comes from the fact that it is in the backyard of the Hopewell/Adena cultures, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">not its </del>distance from Mesoamerica, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">which </del>is what most critics of the New York Cumorah theory focus on. Most critics of the New York Cumorah say the hill is archaeologically clean. Goble says that is immaterial because it is a short term battle site which has been picked over, not a long term settlement site, or in other words, it is the place where people fled to, not where they lived for an extended period of time, and it is well within the domain of the Hopewell Interaction Sphere. In Goble's view, detailed archaeological digs have not been done at the New York Cumorah site. It is only obvious that any artifacts on the surface have been removed, if old accounts are to be trusted, according to Goble.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Goble claims that the plausibility of a New York Cumorah actually comes from the fact that it is in the backyard of the Hopewell/Adena cultures<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. Goble says that most critics focus on solely the archaeology of New York state and say there were no high cultures in the area. But the Hopewell/Adena were in the area</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">he claims. The </ins>distance from Mesoamerica, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">he claims, is paradoxically what lends to its plausibility because of the exceeding distance as mentioned in the text, contrary to the fact that that </ins>is what most critics of the New York Cumorah theory focus on <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">in their claims for the lack of plausibility of the site</ins>. Most critics of the New York Cumorah say the hill is archaeologically clean. Goble says that is immaterial because it is a short term battle site which has been picked over, not a long term settlement site, or in other words, it is the place where people fled to, not where they lived for an extended period of time, and it is well within the domain of the Hopewell Interaction Sphere. In Goble's view, detailed archaeological digs have not been done at the New York Cumorah site. It is only obvious that any artifacts on the surface have been removed, if old accounts are to be trusted, according to Goble.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The model does not attempt to narrow down any specifics except for the general areas, a Narrow Neck of Land at Tehuantepec, and the traditional Cumorah in New York.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The model does not attempt to narrow down any specifics except for the general areas, a Narrow Neck of Land at Tehuantepec, and the traditional Cumorah in New York.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>(See unpublished book manuscript ''Resurrecting Cumorah'')</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>(See unpublished book manuscript ''Resurrecting Cumorah'')</div></td></tr>
</table>EdGoblehttps://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/index.php?title=Book_of_Mormon_geography/Models/Limited/Goble_2004&diff=79324&oldid=prevEdGoble at 00:22, 21 August 20102010-08-21T00:22:16Z<p></p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 00:22, 21 August 2010</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l11">Line 11:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 11:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Therefore, in this model, it is limited in scope in the sense that most of the Book of Mormon History takes place in Mesoamerica, and it is larger in scope only later in their history that the Book of Mormon peoples spread outward to the North. Therefore, in this model, there are two heartlands, one in the Land Southward comprising the heartland of the Preclassic Maya, and one in the Land Northward, comprising the heartland of the Hopewell/Adena, as archaeology has shown, in Illinois and Ohio. This emphasis on the second heartland and a Cumorah in New York in the theory is a hold-over from his previous beliefs in the US Heartland theory.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Therefore, in this model, it is limited in scope in the sense that most of the Book of Mormon History takes place in Mesoamerica, and it is larger in scope only later in their history that the Book of Mormon peoples spread outward to the North. Therefore, in this model, there are two heartlands, one in the Land Southward comprising the heartland of the Preclassic Maya, and one in the Land Northward, comprising the heartland of the Hopewell/Adena, as archaeology has shown, in Illinois and Ohio. This emphasis on the second heartland and a Cumorah in New York in the theory is a hold-over from his previous beliefs in the US Heartland theory.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Goble claims that the plausibility of a New York Cumorah actually comes from the fact that it is in the backyard of the Hopewell/Adena cultures, not its distance from Mesoamerica, which is what most critics of the New York Cumorah theory focus on. Most critics of the New York Cumorah say the hill is archaeologically clean. Goble says that is immaterial because it is a short term battle site which has been picked over, not a long term settlement site, or in other words, it is the place where people fled to, not where they lived for an extended period of time, and it is well within the domain of the Hopewell Interaction Sphere. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">And </del>detailed archaeological digs have not been done at the New York Cumorah. It is only obvious that any artifacts on the surface have been removed, if old accounts are to be trusted.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Goble claims that the plausibility of a New York Cumorah actually comes from the fact that it is in the backyard of the Hopewell/Adena cultures, not its distance from Mesoamerica, which is what most critics of the New York Cumorah theory focus on. Most critics of the New York Cumorah say the hill is archaeologically clean. Goble says that is immaterial because it is a short term battle site which has been picked over, not a long term settlement site, or in other words, it is the place where people fled to, not where they lived for an extended period of time, and it is well within the domain of the Hopewell Interaction Sphere. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">In Goble's view, </ins>detailed archaeological digs have not been done at the New York Cumorah <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">site</ins>. It is only obvious that any artifacts on the surface have been removed, if old accounts are to be trusted<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">, according to Goble</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The model does not attempt to narrow down any specifics except for the general areas, a Narrow Neck of Land at Tehuantepec, and the traditional Cumorah in New York.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The model does not attempt to narrow down any specifics except for the general areas, a Narrow Neck of Land at Tehuantepec, and the traditional Cumorah in New York.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>(See unpublished book manuscript ''Resurrecting Cumorah'')</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>(See unpublished book manuscript ''Resurrecting Cumorah'')</div></td></tr>
</table>EdGoblehttps://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/index.php?title=Book_of_Mormon_geography/Models/Limited/Goble_2004&diff=79316&oldid=prevEdGoble at 06:00, 20 August 20102010-08-20T06:00:05Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 06:00, 20 August 2010</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Goble calls his new model the Two-Heartland theory. The new model relies on the Book of Mormon text. Now he says it doesn't matter what Joseph Smith believed, only what the Book of Mormon text says. The primary disagreement with other Mesoamerican models is that the Book of Mormon mentions an exceedingly great distance between the Land of Zarahemla and the Large Bodies of Water in the Land of Many Waters to the North. Most Mesoamerican theorists believe this exceedingly great distance is much shorter of a distance. Goble interprets it the traditional way.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Goble calls his new model the Two-Heartland theory. The new model relies on the Book of Mormon text. Now he says it doesn't matter what Joseph Smith believed, only what the Book of Mormon text says. The primary disagreement with other Mesoamerican models is that the Book of Mormon mentions an exceedingly great distance between the Land of Zarahemla and the Large Bodies of Water in the Land of Many Waters to the North. Most Mesoamerican theorists believe this exceedingly great distance is much shorter of a distance. Goble interprets it the traditional way.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Therefore, in this model, it is limited in scope in the sense that most of the Book of Mormon History takes place in Mesoamerica, and it is larger in scope only later in their history that the Book of Mormon peoples spread outward to the North. Therefore, in this model, there are two heartlands, one in the Land Southward comprising the heartland of the Preclassic Maya, and one in the Land Northward, comprising the heartland of the Hopewell/Adena, as archaeology has shown, in Illinois and Ohio. This emphasis on the second heartland and a Cumorah in New York in the theory is a hold-over from his previous beliefs in the US Heartland theory. The model does not attempt to narrow down any specifics except for the general areas, a Narrow Neck of Land at Tehuantepec, and the traditional Cumorah in New York.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Therefore, in this model, it is limited in scope in the sense that most of the Book of Mormon History takes place in Mesoamerica, and it is larger in scope only later in their history that the Book of Mormon peoples spread outward to the North. Therefore, in this model, there are two heartlands, one in the Land Southward comprising the heartland of the Preclassic Maya, and one in the Land Northward, comprising the heartland of the Hopewell/Adena, as archaeology has shown, in Illinois and Ohio. This emphasis on the second heartland and a Cumorah in New York in the theory is a hold-over from his previous beliefs in the US Heartland theory<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Goble claims that the plausibility of a New York Cumorah actually comes from the fact that it is in the backyard of the Hopewell/Adena cultures, not its distance from Mesoamerica, which is what most critics of the New York Cumorah theory focus on</ins>. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Most critics of the New York Cumorah say the hill is archaeologically clean. Goble says that is immaterial because it is a short term battle site which has been picked over, not a long term settlement site, or in other words, it is the place where people fled to, not where they lived for an extended period of time, and it is well within the domain of the Hopewell Interaction Sphere. And detailed archaeological digs have not been done at the New York Cumorah. It is only obvious that any artifacts on the surface have been removed, if old accounts are to be trusted.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The model does not attempt to narrow down any specifics except for the general areas, a Narrow Neck of Land at Tehuantepec, and the traditional Cumorah in New York.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>(See unpublished book manuscript ''Resurrecting Cumorah'')</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>(See unpublished book manuscript ''Resurrecting Cumorah'')</div></td></tr>
</table>EdGoble