View source for Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Translation of the Book of Mormon

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|>=[[../Book of Mormon Problems|Book of Mormon Problems]]
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|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Translation of the Book of Mormon
|H=Response to claims made on ''MormonThink'' page "Translation of the Book of Mormon"
|S=
|L1=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery at the same table with the plates in full view of both of them"
|L2=Response to claim: "he only said that he did it by the 'gift and power of God'"
|L3=Response to claim: "Was Joseph Smith not a money digger? Yes, but it was not a very profitable job for him"
|L4=Response to claim: "In March 1826, the twenty-year-old Joseph Smith was arrested and brought before South Bainbridge justice of the peace"
|L5=Response to claim: "Joseph never found any treasure for the men that hired him to find treasure using his seer stones"
|L6=Response to claim: "there is evidence that he found the plates using a seer stone"
|L7=Response to claim: "It is troublesome that a common stone found some 24 feet beneath the ground on Mr. Chase's property had the exact same seering ability as the sacred Urim and Thummim"
|L8=Response to claim: "Why doesn't the Church openly talk about this stone today?"
|L9=Response to claim: "why did Joseph say they were only for beginners?"
|L10=Response to claim: "the 10th president of the Church thinks that using a stone to translate the Book of Mormon with 'hardly seems reasonable'"
|L11=Response to claim: "it would make the whole story sound unbelievable"
|L12=Response to claim: "That is Peterson's attempt to make it sound as if the stone was something that the Nephites had used"
}}
</onlyinclude>

==Response to claim: "Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery at the same table with the plates in full view of both of them"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=This image below was in the Oct 2006 issue of the Ensign which shows both Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery at the same table with the plates in full view of both of them, which is not what is generally taught in the Church.
}}
{{information|This is correct. Some of the Church artwork does not reflect what is generally taught in Church. This is not limited the Church. There is much artwork that does not reflect reality, but rather the thoughts of the artist.
}}
{{:Question:Question: Does Church art always reflect reality?}}
{{:Question: Why are people concerned about Church artwork?}}
{{:Question: Is the Church trying to hide something through its use of artwork?}}
{{:Question: Why doesn't the art match details which have been repeatedly spelled out in Church publications?}}
{{:Question: How do non-Mormon artists treat the Nativity?}}
{{:Question: What message does the Book of Mormon translation painting convey?}}

==Response to claim: "he only said that he did it by the 'gift and power of God'"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=When Joseph was asked how exactly he translated the Book of Mormon, he never gave any details, he only said that he did it by the "gift and power of God." In a general conference of the Church in October 1831, in Orange, Ohio, Hyrum Smith asked his brother, Joseph, to give details of the BOM translation method. Joseph replied that "it was not expedient for him to tell more than had already been told about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, and it was not well that any greater details be provided." 
}}
{{information|This is correct. Joseph never talked of the details of the translation process. We only have this information second-hand through witnesses to the translation process. 
}}
{{:Question: How exactly did Joseph Smith translate the gold plates?}}
{{:Source:Gospel Topics:Book of Mormon Translation:According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat}}
{{:Source:Nelson:A Treasured Testament:Ensign:July 1993:The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights}}
{{:Source:Marcus B. Nash:Joseph Smith Memorial Devotional:June 2013:This was dictated, word by word, as he looked into instruments the Lord prepared for him, using a hat to shield his eyes from extraneous light}}
{{:Source:Nicholson:The Spectacles, The Stone:This essay focuses primarily on the methods and instruments used in the translation process}}
{{:Source:Gardner:The Gift and the Power:it’s stone that becomes the trigger that allows the seer to do what the seer does}}

==Response to claim: "Was Joseph Smith not a money digger? Yes, but it was not a very profitable job for him"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Most LDS are somewhat aware that Joseph Smith did some treasure seeking in his younger days.  A following statement is sometimes quoted in church.  This comes from Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.120: "Q: 'Was Joseph Smith not a money digger?' 'Yes, but it was not a very profitable job for him, as he only got fourteen dollars a month for it.'" This is usually the only thing said at church regarding his treasure-seeking past.<br>....<br>
What is particularly noteworthy about this incident is the timing of the charges. These documents indicate that Joseph was involved in treasure seeking with a seer stone for profit after he received the First Vision but before he translated the Book of Mormon. How likely is it that the chosen prophet of the restoration would engage in such activities after conversing with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ as well as the Angel Moroni? Would he really be doing such activities a year before he dug up the golden plates, after he had met with the angel Moroni for each of the prior three years?
}}
{{propaganda|Joseph did perform treasure seeking after receiving the First Vision. In fact, there is one account that indicates that the First Vision was the even during which Joseph Smith received the ability to "see" after Jesus Christ touched his eyes. However, the authors try to influence the reader after presenting this fact by asking "how likely" it was that one who had seen God would perform such an activity, implying that the activity was somehow performed fraudulently.
}}
{{:Question: Was Joseph Smith's participation in "money digging" as a youth a blot on his character?}}
{{:Source:Joseph Smith:Elders Journal:1:43:Was not Joseph Smith a money digger?}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith "retrofit" his "treasure seeking" to have a religious explanation?}}
{{:Source:Appleby:Mormonism Consistent:If Mr. Smith dug for money he considered it was a more honorable way of getting it than taking it from the widow and orphan}}

==Response to claim: "In March 1826, the twenty-year-old Joseph Smith was arrested and brought before South Bainbridge justice of the peace"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=In March 1826, the twenty-year-old Joseph Smith was arrested and brought before South Bainbridge justice of the peace Albert Neely under the charge of being a "disorderly person and an impostor." This event stemmed from his employment as a treasure seer (or scryer) for Josiah Stowell and others the previous five months. Joseph was employed by Josiah Stowel to find hidden treasures in the ground by gazing into a stone. He led his employer to believe that he could find buried treasure by looking into a stone placed in a hat. Joseph paid $2.68 for the offense. The judge may have let him go if he agreed to leave the state because of his age.
}}
{{propaganda|It is a fact that relatives of Josiah Stowell had Joseph brought before a judge and accused him of being a disorderly person and an imposter. However, the authors stated that Joseph "paid $2.68 for the offense," implying that this was a fine imposed by the judge. It was not a fine, and Joseph was not convicted of anything during this hearing. The $2.68 bill from the judge was simply a fee for the work he performed. The authors then speculate that the judge "may have let him go if he agreed to leave the state because of his age," without acknowledging that the judge did not find reason to detain him and simply released him.
}}
{{:Question: What is Joseph Smith's 1826 Bainbridge "trial" for "glasslooking"?}}
{{:Question: What events resulted in Joseph Smith's 1826 court appearance in Bainbridge?}}
{{:Source:Highlights in the Prophet's Life:Ensign:June 1994:Tried and acquitted on fanciful charge of being a "disorderly person"}}
{{:Question: Didn't Hugh Nibley claim that a record of this trial would be "the most damning evidence in existence" against Joseph Smith?}}
{{:Question: Why was Joseph fined if he wasn't guilty?}}

==Response to claim: "Joseph never found any treasure for the men that hired him to find treasure using his seer stones"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Critic's Comment: Joseph never found any treasure for the men that hired him to find treasure using his seer stones. However, he was able to convince them he had the ability by describing things on Josiah Stowel's property such as his house, outhouses and a painted tree. Obviously, he could have found out about these things without having special abilities. Also, it's very easy to plant a tail feather to prove he could 'see' distant things in his stone. When it came to treasure, he would always seem to have an excuse as to why they couldn't find the treasure even though he saw it in his stone. Often Joseph would say that the treasure kept sinking further into the ground as they dug or that the spirits of dead Indians were guarding the treasure and wouldn't let anyone have it.
}}
{{propaganda|This is speculation. If Joseph never found anything, then why did people keep wanting to hire him?
}}
{{:Question: How did Joseph use his seer stones as a youth?}}
{{:Source:Gardner:Joseph the Seer:2009 FAIR Conference:long before golden plates complicated his position as a local seer}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph place his seer stone in his hat while looking for lost objects?}}

==Response to claim: "there is evidence that he found the plates using a seer stone"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Although Moroni is commonly believed to have instructed young Joseph on where the plates were in Hill Cumorah, there is evidence that he found the plates using a seer stone that he had previously used for treasure-seeking
}}
{{information|It is true that there is an account that states that after the angel Moroni told Joseph of the plates' location, that he looked into his seer stone and saw the location at the hill. 
}}

==Response to claim: "It is troublesome that a common stone found some 24 feet beneath the ground on Mr. Chase's property had the exact same seering ability as the sacred Urim and Thummim"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Critic's comment: It is troublesome that a common stone found some 24 feet beneath the ground on Mr. Chase's property had the exact same seering ability as the sacred Urim and Thummim that was preserved in a stone box for 1,500 years. If the stones were so common, why the need to preserve the Urim and Thummim? Why punish Joseph with taking away the Urim and Thummim when he all along had a seer stone capable of the same function? Had the seer stone Joseph used been given to him by an angel, or had directed him to this stone, then this would make more sense. However, there is nothing to indicate why the stone found on Mr. Chase's property had the same ability as the sacred Urim and Thummim.
}}
{{propaganda|Why is this troubling? God could grant Joseph any ability or make any stone work for Joseph that He wanted. There is an account that indicates that Joseph received his ability to "see" during the First Vision after Jesus Christ touched his eyes. 
}}
{{:Question: How were Joseph Smith's seer stones involved in the translation of the Book of Mormon?}}

==Response to claim: "Why doesn't the Church openly talk about this stone today?"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Critic's Comment: Why doesn't the Church openly talk about this stone today? How many members know about it? This is the stone Joseph put in a hat and looked at to bring forth the Book of Mormon! In 2006, the LDS Church had a special display at their Church Museum of different Joseph Smith artifacts. They had a mock-up of the gold plates but they chose not to display any of Joseph Smith's seer stones. Since one of these stones was used to translate all of the published Book of Mormon, one wonders why it wasn't included in the display. There is no prohibition known to not show these stones. In fact, several authors and historians have seen the stones in the Church's vaults. Is there something embarrassing about having the Book of Mormon translated through the use of this stone?
}}
{{propaganda|The authors are implying that the Church is embarrassed about the use of the stone simply because it is not on display, but they have no evidence to support this in the face of its mention in multiple Church publications, and now in a Gospel Topics essay.
}}
{{:Question: Has the Church tried to hide Joseph's use of a seer stone?}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith use the Nephite interpreters to translate? Or did he use his own seer stone?}}
{{:Question: What are the Nephite interpreters?}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith use his own seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon?}}
{{:Source:Gospel Topics:Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters}}
{{:Source:Dirkmaat:Ensign:January 2013:He...referred to it using an Old Testament term, Urim and Thummim...He also sometimes applied the term to other stones he possessed}}
{{:Source:Phelps:The Evening and The Morning Star 1:58:through the aid of a pair of Interpreters, or spectacles—(known, perhaps, in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummim)}}

==Response to claim: "why did Joseph say they were only for beginners?"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Many LDS defenders say that the Urim and Thummim, or seer stone, was used by Joseph Smith to primarily translate the Book of Mormon and for a few revelations, but that it was not needed later on.....The Urim and Thummim and seer stones weren't just temporary devices Joseph Smith used to translate the Book of Mormon, but rather something of eternal significance—so important that everyone who makes it to the Celestial Kingdom will receive one.
Critic's comments: If seer stones, whether in the form of the Urim and Thummim or a peepstone, are so important that perfect, celestial beings would receive one, why did Joseph say they were only for beginners? Traditionally, do verses 10 and 11 mention two separate white stones, one that becomes a personal Urim and Thummim and one that has a new name written on it? Or is it just one stone? Why is something so important as personal Urim and Thummims and seer stones so rarely talked about openly at church when it's plainly in our modern-day scriptures?
}}
{{misinformation|Joseph seemed to regard his own seer stone as a "stepping-stone" to greater knowledge and revelatory experience. This is exactly what D&C 130 says the "white stone" given to the exalted will do: "things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known."
}}
{{:Question: Why is the "white stone" that we are to receive upon entry to the Celestial kingdom not discussed extensively in Sunday School?}}

==Response to claim: "the 10th president of the Church thinks that using a stone to translate the Book of Mormon with 'hardly seems reasonable'"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=The 10th president of the church, Joseph Fielding Smith, said the following:
While the statement has been made by some writers that the Prophet JS used a seerstone part of the time in his translating of the record, and information points to the fact that he did have in his possession such a stone, yet there is no authentic statement in the history of the church which states that the use of such a stone was made in that translation. The information is all hearsay, and personally, I do not believe that the stone was used for this purpose.
It hardly seems reasonable to suppose that the prophet would substitute something evidently inferior [to the U&T] under these circumstances. It may have been so, but it is so easy for a story of this kind to be circulated due to the fact that the prophet did possess a seerstone, which he may have used for some other purposes.
Doctrines of Salvation vol.3 pg 225-226

So apparently even the 10th president of the Church thinks that using a stone to translate the Book of Mormon with "hardly seems reasonable."
}}
{{misinformation|The authors misrepresent their source. Joseph Fielding Smith said "It hardly seems reasonable to suppose that the Prophet would ''substitute something evidently inferior'' under these circumstances"
}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph Fielding Smith say that it was not reasonable for Joseph Smith to use a seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon?}}

==Response to claim: "it would make the whole story sound unbelievable"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Why doesn't the church be honest when teaching the method to investigators or even its own members?
The short answer of course is that it would make the whole story sound unbelievable. Very few people in the 21st Century would likely join the church if the missionaries plainly taught that Joseph put his face in a hat with a common stone in it and translated the Book of Mormon when the plates were either covered so no one, including Joseph could see them or that the plates were hidden in the woods when he translated them. But that doesn't make it right to deceive innocent truthseekers.
}}
{{propaganda|The author was perfectly fine as a 21st century Mormon when he believed that Joseph used two seer stones mounted in a frame shaped like a "figure eight" to convert "reformed Egyptian" characters into English, but translation by the stone and the hat is "unbelievable"?
}}
{{:Question: Which method of translation was more "believable": seer stone or Nephite interpreters?}}
{{:Source:Gospel Topics:Book of Mormon Translation:These two instruments—the interpreters and the seer stone—were apparently interchangeable}}
{{:Question: What does the Church teach investigators and members regarding the method by which the Book of Mormon was produced?}}
{{:Question: What are the Nephite interpreters?}}

==Response to claim: "That is Peterson's attempt to make it sound as if the stone was something that the Nephites had used"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Editor comment: On the PBS Special, LDS apologist Daniel Peterson says that the stone Joseph used to translate the Book of Mormon with is something we don't know much about except that it was found in the vicinity of Cumorah. That is Peterson's attempt to make it sound as if the stone was something that the Nephites had used or something anciently divine. In reality, Peterson is undoubtedly aware that the stone was found some 24 feet underground on Mason Chase's property when Joseph and his brother Hyrum were digging a well for Mr. Chase years before the gold plates were even given to Joseph. He also neglected to say that the church still has this stone in their possession.
}}
{{disinformation|The idea that Daniel C. Peterson was trying to "make it sound as if the stone was something that the Nephites used" is total nonsense.
}}
This is what Daniel Peterson ''actually'' said in the interview:
<blockquote>
There were a couple of means that were prepared for this. One was that he used an instrument that was found with the plates that was called the Urim and Thummim. This is kind of a divinatory device that goes back into Old Testament times. Actually, most of the translation was done using something called a seer stone. The seer stone is obviously something like the Urim and Thummim. <span style="color:blue">It seems to be a stone that was found in the vicinity,</span> and I can't say exactly how it would have worked. It may have been a kind of a concentrating device or a device to facilitate concentration. He would put the stone for most of the concentration period in the bottom of a hat, presumably to exclude surrounding light. Then he would put his face into the hat. It's kind of a strange image for us today, but it sort of makes sense if you think of a computer screen, I suppose: You don't want to be looking at [anything] against a bright background; it hurts your eyes. ... He would read off what he saw in the stone, apparently in passages of about 25 to 35 words. ...
</blockquote>

If MormonThink wants to claim that Dan Peterson was attempting to "make it sound as if the stone was something that the Nephites had used or something anciently divine," they should at least be truthful in the sources they use as examples. Note that Dr. Peterson did ''not'' say that the stone "was found in the vicinity of Cumorah"&mdash;The ''critics'' said that, then they responded to their own misleading assertion by assigning a motive that this "is Peterson's attempt to make it sound as if the stone was something that the Nephites had used or something anciently divine."  Dr. Peterson never mentioned any relationship between the stone and the Nephites, nor did he imply that the stone had an ancient origin or purpose.


{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Translation of the Book of Mormon/Sources and links
|subject=Source and link analysis
|summary=A examination of the sources and links used on the critical webpage.
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Translation of the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
|subject=Source quotes without critical commentary
|summary=If you would like to read all of the source quotes without wading through all of the "Critic's comments," "Apologetic rebuttals" and "Our Thoughts" sections, we present the critical web page as it would appear if ''only'' the source quotes were provided without any additional commentary. We also try to provide accurate references and direct links to the original source text rather than simply linking to other websites where you have to search for them.
}}
{{endnotes sources}}



[[es:La crítica del Mormonismo/Sitios web/PiensaMormón/Traducción del Libro de Mormón]]