View source for Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The First Vision

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{{H1
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The First Vision
|H=Response to MormonThink page "The First Vision"
|T=[[../|MormonThink]]
|A=Anonymous
|<=[[../Moroni's Visitation|Moroni's Visitation]]
|>=[[../The Book of Abraham|The Book of Abraham]]
}}
[[File:Mormonthink.chart.first.vision.png|center|frame]]
<onlyinclude>
{{H2
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The First Vision
|H=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The First Vision"
|S=
|L1=Response to claim: In the early 1800s having visions wasn't perceived to be all that uncommon
|L2=Response to claim: Issues related to revivals in the Palmyra area in 1820
|L3=Response to claim: Issues related to Oliver Cowdery's 1834-1835 Church history published in the Messenger and Advocate
|L4=Response to claim: "There is no evidence that Joseph told anyone before about 1835, including his family, about the first vision story we know today"
|L5=Response to claim: "the story of the first vision "was not given general circulation in the 1830's"
|L6=Response to claim: "in the early 1800s having visions wasn't perceived to be all that uncommon"
|L7=Response to claim: "How could Smith’s family be unaware of his vision while neighbors were persecuting him for it?"
|L8=Response to claim: "Historical documents indicate that Joseph was persecuted for engaging in a confidence scheme using a magic rock-in-a-hat"
|L9=Response to claim: "The date of the vision and his age varies - from 1823 (age 16), to 1821 (age 15), to 1820 (age 14)"
|L10=Response to claim: "The reason or motive for seeking divine help changes"
|L11=Response to claim: "Who appeared to him? – (1) a spirit, (2)an angel,(3) two angels,(4) Jesus, (5)many angels, and finally, (6) the Father and the Son"
|L12=Response to claim: "he states that he already knew all other churches were false before he prayed"
|L13=Response to claim: "some of the Smith family joining the Presbyterian church AFTER God has supposedly told Joseph that all churches were corrupt"
|L14=Response to claim: "and the fact that as late as 1851, church publications such as the "Times and Seasons" were calling the angel that visited Joseph 'Nephi,' rather than Moroni"
|L15=Response to claim: "Curious investigators and historians wonder if there is evidence of an 1820 revival in the historical record"
|L16=Response to claim: "It started in the fall of 1824 and continued into the spring of 1825"
|L17=Response to claim: "existing tax records and property assessments indicate the most likely date for the Smith family's move onto their Manchester farm was 1822"
|L18=Response to claim: "An ad in the newspaper for a church camp meeting is not a revival that causes the 'religious excitement' that Smith described"
|L19=Response to claim: "Records show that in June 1828, Joseph Smith applied for membership in his wife's Methodist Church"
|L20=Response to claim: "But of the nearly 4,000 alterations, some of them had to do with Joseph's evolving belief about the nature of God"
|L21=Response to claim: "The Fifth Lecture on Faith specifically states that the Father is a spirit"
|L22=Response to claim: "In 1832 Joseph Smith revealed that a man could not see God without the Mormon Priesthood. This revelation is currently Section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants. Verses 21-22"
|L23=Response to claim: "Swedenborg insisted: 'There are three heavens'"
|L24=Response to claim: The First Vision teaches that "God the Father and Jesus Christ were separate beings: But this was not understood by church members during Smith’s lifetime"
|L25=Response to claim: "How is it that JS could remember the precise date of the angel's visit in 1823, but could not remember the precise date of God's appearance to him in 1820?"
|L26=Response to claim: "How do we know that it wasn't Satan (if he exists) that appeared to Joseph?"
|L27=Response to claim: "the first vision version of April 1838 added significant material that bolstered his authority during a time of crisis"
}}
</onlyinclude>

==Response to claim: In the early 1800s having visions wasn't perceived to be all that uncommon==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Visions in the early 1800s were common. In modern times if someone said they had a vision it would seem extraordinary, or more likely not believable. However in the early 1800s having visions wasn't perceived to be all that uncommon. Even Joseph Smith's father claimed to have had a vision - namely the Tree of Life vision. People believed in magic, seer stones, divining rods, etc. and people claiming to have visions weren't seen as all that strange. Like much of Joseph's work, the first vision is strikingly similar to someone else's story.
}}
{{information|This is true. Joseph was not the only one to report having a vision.
}}
{{:Question: What is the difference between Joseph Smith's first vision and other reported visions of God at the time?}}

==Response to claim: Issues related to revivals in the Palmyra area in 1820==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=
The authors assert that there were no religious "revivals" anywhere in the area in which Joseph Smith lived in 1820. The following statements appear on this page:
<blockquote>
Is there evidence that Joseph was mistaken or did not tell the truth about a revival in 1820?
</blockquote>
and
<blockquote>
There was no revival anywhere in the Palmyra-Manchester, New York area in 1820. The events as told by Joseph Smith will not fit into the time period between the 1824 revival and the 1830 publication of the Book of Mormon.
</blockquote>
and
<blockquote>
According to the historical evidence Joseph Smith could not have been stirred by an 1820 revival to ask which church was true, since there was no revival in 1820 anywhere near Manchester, New York, where he was living. A revival as described by Joseph Smith did occur there beginning in the spring of 1824.
</blockquote>
The authors also attempt to dismiss evidence of Methodist "camp meetings" in the area simply because they were not called "revivals":
<blockquote>
The church’s November 2013 essay and FAIR (an unofficial apologist LDS site) claim that there was a revival in 1820. They use the term revival loosely to help convince investigators that Smith’s claims are correct. An ad in the newspaper for a church camp meeting is not a revival that causes the “religious excitement” that Smith described.
</blockquote>
}}
{{misinformation|Joseph mentions an "excitement" on the subject of religion, which most interpret to mean "revival." However, Joseph's 1832 account shows that he began to become concerned about religion at age 12, which coincides with a known 1818 revival.
}}
{{:Source:Christofferson:The Prophet Joseph Smith:BYUI Devotional:2013:Critics have also claimed that there were no religious revivals in the Palmyra, New York, area in 1820}}
{{:Question: What religious excitement was occurring in Palmyra in 1820?}}
{{:Question: Was there no mention of revival activity in 1820 in the newspaper?}}
{{:Question: At what age did Joseph Smith become concerned about religion?}}
{{:Question: What evidence of religious excitement is there from non-Mormon sources?}}
{{:Question: Were revivals and religious excitement too common to be noticed in the newspapers?}}
{{:Source:Palmyra Register:28 June 1820:5 July 1820:It was far from our intention to charge the Methodists with retailing ardent spirits while professedly met for the worship of their God}}
{{:Source:Benajah Williams:July 1820:Had a two Days meeting at Sq Bakers in Richmond}}

==Response to claim: Issues related to Oliver Cowdery's 1834-1835 Church history published in the Messenger and Advocate==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=The authors make several references to Oliver Cowdery's Church history published in the ''Messenger and Advocate'' starting in 1834:
<blockquote>
In the first history of Mormonism from 1835 written under Joseph Smith's direction, it says that the night of September 1823 Joseph Smith began praying in his bed to learn "the all important information, if a Supreme being did exist, to have an assurance that he was accepted of him." (LDS periodical Messenger and Advocate, Kirtland, Ohio, Feb. 1835). It makes no sense for him to ask if God existed, if Smith had already seen God face-to-face some three years earlier, and knew he existed.
</blockquote>
and
<blockquote>
Cowdery's statement that Smith had wondered, several years after the alleged "first vision," as to whether "a Supreme Being did exist"...
</blockquote>
and
<blockquote>
...the Moroni visit was hailed by church leaders as the actual first vision in the first official history. 
</blockquote>
and
<blockquote>
Oliver Cowdery's account in the 1834 "Messenger and Advocate" stated that the "first vision" occurred in 1823. He did not report an 1820 vision, indicating that Cowdery was unaware of the 1820 experience. Cowdery's account also reported that Smith's interest in religion was sparked by the preaching of Methodist elder George Lane, rather than Smith's version, that claimed that he was inspired by reading in the Bible at age 14. Cowdery also stated that the date of the "religious excitement in Palmyra and vicinity" was in Smith's "17th year," which would have been 1823, rather than 1820. 
</blockquote>
and
<blockquote>
In Joseph Smith's 1835 published history of the church, he claimed that his first spiritual experience was in 1823 after a religious revival in Palmyra that same year. Smith testified that he prayed while in bed one night, to discover if God existed. 
</blockquote>
}}
{{misinformation|This is related to Oliver Cowdery's attempt to write a history of the Church, which did not actually describe the First Vision at all.
}}
{{:Question: Did Oliver Cowdery state that Joseph did not know if a "supreme being" existed in 1823?}}
{{:Question: What criticisms are related to Oliver Cowdery's 1834-1835 history of the Church?}}
{{:Question: Was Oliver Cowdery aware of the details of the First Vision that were written in Joseph Smith's 1832 history?}}

==Response to claim: "There is no evidence that Joseph told anyone before about 1835, including his family, about the first vision story we know today"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=There is no evidence that Joseph told anyone before about 1835, including his family, about the first vision story we know today.
}}
{{misinformation|There is circumstantial evidence from 1830 that the vision was known, so the statement that there is "absolutely" no evidence of it is incorrect. If no one knew about the vision until "about 1835," why was a skeptical newspaper account describing how Mormon missionaries were teaching that Joseph had personally seen God in November of 1830?  Not only had Church members heard that Joseph had seen God, but they were preaching it and a hostile press was ''writing about it.'' LDS missionaries were teaching that Joseph Smith had seen God "personally" and received a commission from Him to teach true religion (''The Reflector'', vol. 2, no. 13, 14 February 1831). There was a report in a non-LDS newspaper that Mormon missionaries were teaching at least six of the beginning elements of the First Vision story (''Fredonia Censor'', vol. 11, no. 50, 7 March 1832).  When the Rev. John A. Clark published his autobiography he mixed nine First Vision story elements together with the story of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and said that he learned them all in the Fall of 1827 from Martin Harris (John A. Clark, ''Gleanings by the Way'' [Philadelphia: W. J. and J. K. Simmon, 1842],---).
}}
{{:Question: How early was the story of the First Vision known among the members of the Church?}}

==Response to claim: "the story of the first vision "was not given general circulation in the 1830's"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=James B. Allen, who served as assistant church historian, acknowledged that the story of the first vision "was not given general circulation in the 1830's. Dr. Allen wrote that<br><br>"...none of the available contemporary writings about Joseph Smith in the 1830's, none of the publications of the Church in that decade, and no contemporary journal or correspondence yet discovered mentions the story of the first vision...."<br><br>Dr. Allen goes on to state that in the 1830's "the general membership of the Church knew little, if anything, about it." Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn 1966, pages 29-45.  
|authorsources=<br>
#Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn 1966, pages 29-45.
}}
{{misinformation|That isn't exactly what James B. Allen said. He said that the story "at best" received "limited circulation." Here is the quote from James B. Allen with the <span style="color:blue">part that the critics extracted highlighted in blue</span>:
<blockquote>
The fact that none of the available contemporary writings about Joseph Smith in the 1830s, <span style="color:blue">none of the publications of the Church in that decade, and no contemporary journal or correspondence yet discovered mentions the story of the first vision</span> '''is convincing evidence that at best it received only limited circulation in those early days.''' (emphasis added)
</blockquote>
}}
{{Question: Is the fact that Latter-day Saint missionaries were teaching around 1 November 1830 that Joseph Smith had seen “God” personally a to having seen Jesus Christ, but not the Father?}}

==Response to claim: "in the early 1800s having visions wasn't perceived to be all that uncommon"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=In modern times if someone said they had a vision it would seem extraordinary, or more likely not believable. However in the early 1800s having visions wasn't perceived to be all that uncommon. Even Joseph Smith's father claimed to have had a vision - namely the Tree of Life vision. People believed in magic, seer stones, divining rods, etc. and people claiming to have visions weren't seen as all that strange. Like much of Joseph's work, the first vision is strikingly similar to someone else's story.  
}}
{{information|Since visions were not uncommon, that kind of explains why Joseph didn't really mention it to many people, or why many people didn't pay much attention if he did. MormonThink can't have it both ways: it can't be both astonishing that no one remembered Joseph talking about his First Vision in early Palmyra, ''and'' that such things were regarded as common.  They ''were'' seen as common (and somewhat disreputable) and so it is no surprise that no one local paid any attention to it at the time. Pastors of that day looked down on people who claimed to see God in a vision - such things were being discouraged. It was the vision of ''Moroni'' and the subsequent recovery and translation of the Book of Mormon that caused Joseph to realize that his path was different than others who had claimed to see visions. Therefore, Joseph emphasized that and only wrote the full account of his First Vision much later.
As Richard Bushman noted:
<blockquote>
The clergy of the mainline churches automatically suspected any visionary report, whatever its content...The only acceptable message from heaven was assurance of forgiveness and a promise of grace. Joseph's report of God's rejection of all creeds and churches would have sounded all too familiar to the Methodist evangelical, who repeated the conventional point that "all such things had ceased with the apostles and that there never would be any more of them."<ref>{{Book:Bushman:Rough Stone Rolling|pages=41}}</ref>
</blockquote>
}}

==Response to claim: "How could Smith’s family be unaware of his vision while neighbors were persecuting him for it?"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Joseph claimed that the neighborhood knew about the vision and persecuted him for it. But evidence indicates that his own family did not know about the vision. If Joseph's story had actually occurred and excited persecution, family members did not talk or write about it in memoirs. The question arises from reasonable investigators, “How could Smith’s family be unaware of his vision while neighbors were persecuting him for it”?
}}
{{disinformation|Joseph never said that his vision caused "excited persecution" in his "neighborhood".  He described being persecuted for it specifically after talking to a Methodist preacher about it:
<blockquote>
"Joseph did tell a Methodist preacher about the First Vision.  Newly reborn people customarily talked over their experiences with a clergyman to test the validity of the conversion.  The preacher's contempt shocked Joseph.  Standing on the margins of the evangelical churches, Joseph may not have recognized the ill repute of visionaries.  The preacher reacted quickly and negatively, '''not because of the strangeness of Joseph's story, but because of its familiarity'''.  Subjects of revivals all too often claimed to have seen visions.<ref>{{Book:Bushman:Rough Stone Rolling:Short|pages=40-41}}</ref>
</blockquote>

MormonThink can't have it both ways: it can't be both astonishing that no one remembered Joseph talking about his First Vision in early Palmyra, ''and'' that such things were regarded as common (see above).  They ''were'' seen as common (and somewhat disreputable) and so it is no surprise that no one local paid much attention to it at the time, other than to be scornful or dismissive if Joseph told them. Joseph did not tell his family about Moroni until he was ''commanded'' to do so by the angel.  Rather than being inconsistent, this reinforces the truthfulness of Joseph's account: he apparently wasn't inclined to tell everyone until he was directed to do so.  Perhaps he had learned his lesson and was "once bitten, twice shy"? Why do you suppose MormonThink doesn't tell us this?  It's right in Joseph's official history, and yet they act like his actions are completely mysterious.  Do they not know the material at all, or are they hiding something intentionally?

<blockquote>
I shortly after arose from my bed, and, as usual, went to the necessary labors of the day; but, in attempting to work as at other times, I found my strength so exhausted as to render me entirely unable.  My father, who was laboring along with me, discovered something to be wrong with me, and told me to go home.  I started with the intention of going to the house; but, in attempting to cross the fence out of the field where we were, my strength entirely failed me, and I fell helpless on the ground, and for a time was quite unconscious of anything. The first thing that I can recollect was a voice speaking unto me, calling me by name.  I looked up, and beheld the same messenger standing over my head, surrounded by light as before.  He then again related unto me all that he had related to me the previous night, and commanded me to go to my father and tell him of the vision and commandments which I had received.  (Joseph Smith History 1:48-49).
</blockquote>
}}

==Response to claim: "Historical documents indicate that Joseph was persecuted for engaging in a confidence scheme using a magic rock-in-a-hat"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Historical documents indicate that Joseph was persecuted for engaging in a confidence scheme using a magic rock-in-a-hat to reveal where buried treasure lay beneath the earth’s surface, and later, in 1827, using that same rock-in-the-hat to locate golden plates buried near his home.
}}
{{disinformation|Where are these historical documents that indicated that Joseph was persecuted for "engaging in a confidence scheme using a magic rock-in-a-hat"? Are they referring to the 1826 South Bainbridge court appearance? If that is the case, Joseph wasn't convicted or fined at that court appearance. He was never convicted of running a "confidence scheme."
}}

==Response to claim: "The date of the vision and his age varies - from 1823 (age 16), to 1821 (age 15), to 1820 (age 14)"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Joseph did not tell a consistent story, but changed key elements over the years. The date of the vision and his age varies - from 1823 (age 16), to 1821 (age 15), to 1820 (age 14)
}}
{{propaganda|Only the first account shows an age discrepancy of age 15 rather than age 14, and the entry regarding the age wasn't even in Joseph Smith's own handwriting. 
}}
{{:Question: Are the ages stated in Joseph's accounts of the First Vision 'all over the place?'}}
{{:Question: Why does Joseph Smith state in his 1832 First Vision account that he was in his "16th year" of age?}}
{{:Question: Is there a case where Joseph stated that his age was 17 rather than 14 at the time of the First Vision?}}

==Response to claim: "The reason or motive for seeking divine help changes"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Joseph did not tell a consistent story, but changed key elements over the years....The reason or motive for seeking divine help changes - from (1) no motive (a spirit appears with the news of gold plates),(2) Bible reading and conviction of sins, (3) a revival, and (4)a desire to know if God existed.
}}
{{propaganda|The author exaggerates perceived differences in the accounts, when in reality the accounts contain primarily the same core details, with some additional details in specific ones. The only major difference is that the 1832 account mentions one personage ("the Lord") instead of two.
}}
{{:Question: What was Joseph Smith's motivation for going to the grove to pray in 1820?}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith change his stated motivation for praying in later years?}}
{{:Question: How do the First Vision accounts compare on the subject of Joseph's motivation for praying?}}

==Response to claim: "Who appeared to him? – (1) a spirit, (2)an angel,(3) two angels,(4) Jesus, (5)many angels, and finally, (6) the Father and the Son"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Joseph did not tell a consistent story, but changed key elements over the years....Who appeared to him? – (1) a spirit, (2)an angel,(3) two angels,(4) Jesus, (5)many angels, and finally, (6) the Father and the Son.
}}
{{propaganda|The author exaggerates perceived differences in the accounts, when in reality the accounts contain primarily the same core details, with some additional details in specific ones. The only major difference is that the 1832 account mentions one personage ("the Lord") instead of two. For example, none of the accounts mention that only an angel appeared, although one mentions the presences of "many angels" in addition to the two personages. Joseph referred to his First Vision as the "First Visitation of angels" and Moroni's visit as "another visitation of angels."
}}
{{:Question: By what name did Joseph Smith refer to the First Vision?}}
{{:Source:Günther Juncker (1994):Christ As Angel:Unknown to many, the early church fathers often referred to Jesus as an Angel}}
{{:Source:Joseph Smith:TPJS 191:After His resurrection He appeared as an angel to His disciples}}
{{:Source:Joseph Smith:1835 Journal:First communication}}
{{:Source:Joseph Smith:1835 Journal:The First Visitation of Angels}}
{{:Question: Why does Joseph Smith's 1832 account of the First Vision not mention two personages?}}
{{:Question: Is there any reference to God the Father being present in Joseph Smith's 1832 account?}}
{{:Question: Why did the Prophet construct the 1832 narrative in a manner such as to exclude explicit mention of the Father's appearance?}}
{{:Question: Did any of Joseph's scribe ever say anything about Joseph's story of the vision changing over time?}}
{{:Question: Did the words "God the Father" and "Jesus Christ" appear in Joseph's 1838 account of the First Vision?}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph mention a "pillar of fire" or a "pillar of light" in his 1832 account of the First Vision?}}
{{:Source:Joseph Smith:1832 History:First Vision:Pillar of fire light}}
{{:Source:Joseph Smith:9 November 1835:First Vision:Pillar of fire}}
{{:Source:Orson Pratt:A Interesting Account of Several Remarkable Visions:Pillar of light}}
{{:Source:Joseph Smith:Wentworth Letter:1840:surrounded with a brilliant light which eclipsed the sun at noon-day}}
{{:Question: Why did Joseph Smith state the he was visited by two personages and then just five days later say that he was visited by angels?}}
{{:Source:Joseph Smith:Joseph's journal entry of 9 November 1835:Personages who appeared}}
{{:Source:Joseph Smith:Joseph's journal entry of 14 November 1835:I received the first visitation of Angels which was when I was about 14}}
{{:Question: What are the two 1835 First Vision accounts that refer to angels?}}
{{:Question: Why does Joseph Smith's 9 November 1835 account of the First Vision mention "many angels?"}}
{{:Question: Does the use of the capitalized word "Angel" in the 14 November 1835 account refer to Deity?}}
{{:Question: Does the 14 November 1835 account reference to the "first vision of Angels" mean that Joseph Smith did not see Deity?}}
{{:Question: Was the ''History of the Church'' falsified when "first visitation of Angels" was changed to "my first vision"?}}

==Response to claim: "he states that he already knew all other churches were false before he prayed"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=In Joseph Smith's first handwritten testimony of the 1820 first vision written in 1832, he states that he already knew all other churches were false before he prayed. 
}}
{{misinformation|How would Joseph have determined that there was no true "denomination upon the earth" by examining the few Churchs that he had access to in Palmyra? He may have determined that none of the ones that he was familiar with were true, but how would he know that there wasn't one on the entire earth unless he asked God during his vision?
}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith decide that all churches were wrong before he received the First Vision?}}

==Response to claim: "some of the Smith family joining the Presbyterian church AFTER God has supposedly told Joseph that all churches were corrupt"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=There are other contradictions which cast doubt on the "first vision," such as the some of the Smith family joining the Presbyterian church AFTER God has supposedly told Joseph that all churches were corrupt
}}
{{misinformation|No records exist showing when the Smith's joined the Presbyterian church.
}}
{{:Question: When was Lucy Mack Smith baptized?}}
{{:Question: Did Lucy Mack Smith join the Presbyterian Church after her son Alvin died in 1823?}}
{{:Question: Did Lucy Mack Smith state when she joined the Presbyterians?}}

==Response to claim: "and the fact that as late as 1851, church publications such as the "Times and Seasons" were calling the angel that visited Joseph 'Nephi,' rather than Moroni"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=and the fact that as late as 1851, church publications such as the "Times and Seasons" were calling the angel that visited Joseph "Nephi," rather than Moroni. Since Joseph Smith was the editor of the "Times and Seasons," it seems incredible that he would allow his own paper to misstate the name of the angel, and not issue a correction.  
}}
{{misinformation|This was a scribal error that was propagated into a number of other sources.
}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith originally identify the angel that visited him as "Nephi" instead of "Moroni"?}}
{{:Question: Which sources mention Nephi as the angelic visitor who told Joseph Smith about the gold plates?}}
{{:Question: Are there sources which identify the angel that visited Joseph as "Moroni" that date prior to the "Nephi" error?}}
{{:Question: Did the prophet Nephi visit Joseph at some point in time?}}
{{:Source:Christofferson:The Prophet Joseph Smith:BYUI Devotional:2013:The June 1839 Manuscript History of the Church says it was Nephi who appeared to Joseph Smith in 1823 rather than Moroni}}
{{:Source:Anderson:Confirming Records of Moroni's Coming:Improvement Era:73 9:This wording in the present Pearl of Great Price is modified from the first printing, in which the messenger was identified as "Nephi"}}

==Response to claim: "Curious investigators and historians wonder if there is evidence of an 1820 revival in the historical record"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=A young Joseph, an amazing vision, the birth of Mormonism - all started with a great revival according to the fully evolved story. Joseph Smith described the revival that took place in his boyhood town of Palmyra, New York:
<blockquote>
There was in the place where we lived an unusual excitement on the subject of religions. It commenced with the Methodist, but soon became general among all the sects in that region of the country... . great multitudes united themselves to the different religious parties, which created no small stir ... Some were contending for the Methodist faith, some for the Presbyterian, and some for the Baptist (Pearl of Great Price / Joseph Smith History 1:5).
</blockquote>
Curious investigators and historians wonder if there is evidence of an 1820 revival in the historical record? 
}}
{{propaganda|MormonThink is begging the question: they are assuming what they want to prove.  They are calling these events "a revival," when Joseph never called them by that term.
}}
{{:Question: What religious excitement was occurring in Palmyra in 1820?}}
{{:Question: What evidence of religious excitement is there from non-Mormon sources?}}
{{:Question: Were revivals and religious excitement too common to be noticed in the newspapers?}}

==Response to claim: "It started in the fall of 1824 and continued into the spring of 1825"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Marquardt and Walters found multiple sources that revealed evidence of a great religious excitement, with big gains in church membership for all the denominations mentioned by Joseph. It started in the fall of 1824 and continued into the spring of 1825. For the year ending September 1825, the Baptist church recorded 94 admitted on profession of faith and baptism, the Presbyterian church reported 99 new members and the Methodist circuit showed an increase of 208 (p. 27). These facts fit Joseph's description, but not his date for the event. 
}}
{{propaganda|This is irrelevant.  There was a revival in 1824-25, but there was also religious excitement and camp meetings in the correct time and place for Joseph's account.
}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith simply conflate elements of the 1818 and 1824-25 revivals in his story of the First Vision?}}

==Response to claim: "existing tax records and property assessments indicate the most likely date for the Smith family's move onto their Manchester farm was 1822"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=The second detail was Joseph Smith's statement that the revival took place "sometime in the second year after our removal to Manchester" (PGP/JS History 1:5). Research into existing tax records and property assessments indicate the most likely date for the Smith family's move onto their Manchester farm was 1822. A revival occurring in the second year after 1822 also fits the 1824 revival date (Inventing, pp. 7-8).
}}
{{misinformation|Records show that Joseph Smith was living in the area at the right time to be near the Sacred Grove where God and His Son appeared to him.
}}
{{:Question: Is there evidence that the Smith family was in the Palmyra area in 1820?}}

==Response to claim: "An ad in the newspaper for a church camp meeting is not a revival that causes the 'religious excitement' that Smith described"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=The church’s November 2013 essay and FAIR (an unofficial apologist LDS site) claim that there was a revival in 1820. They use the term revival loosely to help convince investigators that Smith’s claims are correct. An ad in the newspaper for a church camp meeting is not a revival that causes the “religious excitement” that Smith described.
}}
{{disinformation|No, FairMormon does ''not'' claim that there was a revival in 1820. FairMormon states, based upon newspaper data, that there were Methodist camp meetings being held in the Palmyra area, and that these could account for the "religious excitement". A religious "revival" doesn't have to be formally declared as such in order for a 14-year-old boy to perceive "religious excitement" in the area.

The MormonThink author has completely misunderstood the data, and then responded to their own misunderstanding. The newspaper evidence is not "ad in the newspaper for a church camp meeting," and nobody has even claimed that a newspaper ad in 1820 was responsible for any "religious excitement". 
*The newspaper articles mention the occurrence of at least one Methodist camp meeting in Palmyra in association with a death that occurred. Had the death not occurred, the camp meeting would not have been mentioned in the newspaper. This is simply an indication that Methodist camp meetings ''were'' occurring, but were ''not'' advertised in the newspaper. The "religious excitement" was not the result of "newspaper ads".
}}
{{:Question: Were revivals and religious excitement too common to be noticed in the newspapers?}}
{{:Source:Palmyra Register:28 June 1820:5 July 1820:It was far from our intention to charge the Methodists with retailing ardent spirits while professedly met for the worship of their God}}

<!-- ==== ====
{{MormonThinkIndexClaim
|claim=Hyrum, Samuel, Katherine, and Joseph's mother, Lucy, became members of the Presbyterian church after one of these revivals but his father would not join because of some feelings engendered at Alvin's funeral. Thus, by implication, these family members joined near the time of Alvin's death [in November 1823]. Lucy Smith, in her account, indicated that she and several of her family became interested in joining with a church shortly after Alvin's death. This would indicate that they probably joined the Presbyterian church early in 1824.

*{{Antispeak|repeat}}
* This claim is false. The "Smith family" did not join the Presbyterian church; Joseph's mother and a few siblings did.  Lucy discusses another group to which she was attracted after the First Vision.  She and much of the family was inclined thereto: Joseph was not.
|quote=
* Lucy Mack Smith even reports what Joseph told her:

<blockquote>Shortly after the death of Alvin, '''a man commenced labouring in the neigbourhood, to effect a union of the different churches'' [note that this is not the Presbyterians], in order that all might be agreed, and thus worship God with one heart and with one mind.<BR><BR>

This scented about right to me, and I felt much inclined to join in with them; in fact, the most of the family appeared quite disposed to unite with their numbers; but Joseph, from the first, utterly refused even to attend their meetings, saying, "Mother, I do not wish to prevent your going to meeting, or any of the rest of the family's; or your joining any church you please; but, do not ask me to join them. I can take my Bible, and go into the woods, and learn more in two hours, than you can learn at meeting in two years, if you should go all the time."<BR><BR>

To gratify me, my husband attended some two or three meetings, but peremptorily refused going any more, either for my gratification, or any other person's.<BR><BR>

[p.91] During this excitement, Joseph would say, it would do us no injury to join them, that if we did, we should not continue with them long, for we were mistaken in them, and did not know the wickedness of their hearts.{{ea}}<ref>{{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors|pages=90-91}}</ref></blockquote>

* Lucy and some siblings were Presbyterian members, but this was ''prior'' to Joseph's First Vision:<ref> Note that Lucy quotes Joseph's report that his mother and four siblings were members of the Presbyterian faith prior to his vision in {{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short|pages=74}}</ref>
:[48] [Prior to Joseph Smith Sr. losing his farm in Vermont around 1802] I heard that a very devout man was to preach the next Sabbath in the Presbyterian Church; I therefore went to meeting, in the full expectation of hearing that which my soul desired—the Word of Life. When the minister commenced speaking, I fixed my mind with deep attention upon the spirit and matter of his discourse; but, after hearing him through, I returned home, convinced that he neither understood nor appreciated the subject upon which he spoke, and I said in my heart that there was not then upon earth the religion which I sought. I therefore determined to examine my Bible, and, taking Jesus and his disciples for my guide, to endeavour to obtain from God that which man could neither give nor take away. Notwithstanding this, I would hear all that could be said, as well as read much that was written, on the subject of religion; but the Bible I intended should be my guide to life and salvation. This course I pursued a number of years. At length I considered it my duty to be baptized, and, finding a minister who was willing to baptize me, and leave me free in regard to joining any religious denomination, I stepped forward and yielded obedience to this ordinance; after [p.49] which I continued to read the Bible as formerly, until my eldest son had attained his twenty-second year....<ref>{{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short|pages=48}}</ref>
* MormonThink is confusing the two.  They do not understand the documents well at all.  Why not?
|link=Joseph Smith's First Vision/Lucy Mack Smith and the Presbyterians
|subject=Lucy Mack Smith and the Presbyterians
|summary=It is claimed that since there was a religious revival in Palmyra, New York in 1824-25 which appears to match details of Joseph Smith's official Church history, he must have mistakenly mixed this event in with his narrative about what happened in 1820, and that the Prophet's mother joined the Presbyterian church after Alvin Smith died in late 1823. This contradicts Joseph's statement that she joined in 1820, thereby dating Joseph's First Vision to no earlier than 1823.
}} -->

==Response to claim: "Records show that in June 1828, Joseph Smith applied for membership in his wife's Methodist Church"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Records show that in June 1828, Joseph Smith applied for membership in his wife's Methodist Church. He also joined Methodist classes taught there. (The Amboy Journal, Amboy, IL, details Smith's 1828 activity in the Methodist Church. April 30, 1879 p. 1; May 21, 1879 p.1; June 11, 1879, p.1; July 2, 1879 p.1.)<br>....<br>
Joseph was welcomed, not persecuted by the Methodists.
}}
{{misinformation|When the procedures and policy of the Methodist Episcopal Church are examined, the story told about Joseph's three day membership does not seem to fit the facts.
}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith become a member of Emma Hale Smith's Methodist congregation in 1828, eight years after the First Vision?}}
{{:Question: How quickly could one join the Methodists in the 1830s?}}

==Response to claim: "But of the nearly 4,000 alterations, some of them had to do with Joseph's evolving belief about the nature of God"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Numerous changes to the first edition of the Book of Mormon were made in the 2nd edition in 1837. LDS leaders teach members that only punctuation and grammar corrections were made. But of the nearly 4,000 alterations, some of them had to do with Joseph's evolving belief about the nature of God. Notice how these verses changed from Jesus-was-God-the-Father, to Jesus-is-the-Son-of-God-and-not-the-Father.
}}
{{misinformation|These changes were made for the purpose of clarification, not doctrinal modification
}}
{{:Question: What changes were made to the 1837 edition of the Book of Mormon?}}
{{:Question: Why did Joseph Smith make changes to the Book of Mormon?}}
{{:Question: Were any of the changes to the Book of Mormon made in reaction to sectarian criticism?}}

==Response to claim: "The Fifth Lecture on Faith specifically states that the Father is a spirit"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Originally the Doctrine and Covenants contained the Lectures on Faith, put forth as doctrine by Joseph Smith in 1835. The lectures were removed in the 20th century. The Fifth Lecture on Faith specifically states that the Father is a spirit, that only Jesus has a body, and that the Holy Ghost is the Mind of the Father and the Son. If Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon declared this to be doctrine in 1835, it undercuts the two first vision stories (1832 and 1838).  
}}
{{information|There is no documentary evidence that indicates exactly when Joseph Smith learned that God the Father had a glorified and perfected body of flesh and bone. And, despite our typical assumptions, there is also no indication that Joseph learned any such thing during his 1820 First Vision. Regardless of when this revelation was bestowed upon the Prophet, it cannot be established beyond doubt that he was responsible for the teaching about the "spirit" nature of God found in the main text of lecture #5. It may, instead, be true that the Prophet was involved in adjusting the lecture #5 text to conform with his earlier work on the translation of the Bible.
}}
{{:Question: What are the Lectures on Faith?}}
{{:Question: What does Lecture 5 of the Lectures on Faith say about the nature of God?}}
{{:Question: How would a statement that "God is a spirit" be interpreted in ancient Judasism?}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph began his prophetic career with a "trinitarian" idea of God?}}

==Response to claim: "In 1832 Joseph Smith revealed that a man could not see God without the Mormon Priesthood. This revelation is currently Section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants. Verses 21-22"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=In 1832 Joseph Smith revealed that a man could not see God without the Mormon Priesthood. This revelation is currently Section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants. Verses 21-22
}}
{{misinformation|This argument is fatally flawed by an improper interpretation of D&C 84:21-22 and also by not taking into account additional texts that were produced by Joseph Smith.
}}
{{:Question: Does Doctrine and Covenants 84 say that one cannot see God without holding the priesthood?}}

==Response to claim: "Swedenborg insisted: 'There are three heavens'"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=But this innovation was advocated in 1784, by Emanuel Swedenborg who wrote a book called Heaven and Hell and Its Wonders. He described his visions of the afterlife. Swedenborg insisted: "There are three heavens," described as "entirely distinct from each other." He called the highest heaven "the Celestial Kingdom," and stated that the inhabitants of the three heavens corresponded to the "sun, moon and stars." Those who have read Swedenborg’s writings wonder if Smith borrowed from him.
}}
{{propaganda|The claim of "similarity" rests on a few superficial similarities between Joseph and Swedenborg and the Bible—and ignores the many marked differences between them.
}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith derive the idea of "three degrees of glory" from Emanuel Swedenborg's book, ''Heaven and its Wonders and Hell''?}}

==Response to claim: The First Vision teaches that "God the Father and Jesus Christ were separate beings: But this was not understood by church members during Smith’s lifetime"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Mormon church leaders teach that Joseph had a vision in 1820 and that it has always been the central part of the LDS faith. It teaches a simple, plain truth that God the Father and Jesus Christ were separate beings. But this was not understood by church members during Smith’s lifetime. And as indicated earlier leaders knew little if anything about the “official” account of the first vision story.
}}
{{disinformation|The separate nature of God and Christ was apparent from the very earliest LDS documents, such as the Book of Mormon. MormonThink plays a good trick with the numbers--note that it is "over 15 years after the event supposedly occurred."  Since the vision was in 1820 and the Church wasn't organized until 1830, ten of the fifteen years had already passed.  Were future Mormons supposed to be learning Joseph's theology before he had even founded a church? So, MormonThink has already admitted that this was unmistakable within 5 years of the Church's establishment.

But, the earliest documents go back even further than that. In 1829, the Book of Mormon was translated:

<blockquote>
The Book of Mormon also begins (1 Nephi 1:8-10) with Lehi's vision of God on his throne. One [Christ] followed by twelve others descends from God to speak with Lehi--thus, Jesus and the Father are here both separate, and the role of Christ in giving instructions to the prophet while the Father looks on and approves is followed, just as it was in Joseph's First Vision. Here too, Lehi is described as praying to "the Lord," and yet has a vision of both God the Father and Christ.
</blockquote>

Between June and October 1830, Joseph had dictated his revision (the "Joseph Smith Translation") to Genesis.  Joseph's rendered {{s||Genesis|1|26|27}} as:

<blockquote>
And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and it was so....And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them. ({{s||Moses|2|26-27}}.)
</blockquote>

There can be no doubt that Joseph understood "in mine own image" to refer to a physical likeness, rather than merely a moral or intellectual one.  The JST of {{s||Genesis|5|1-2}} reads

<blockquote>
In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; ''in the image of his own body'', male and female, created he them ({{s||Moses|6|8-9}}, emphasis added)
</blockquote>

Thus, by 1830 Joseph's revelations were clearly teaching a separation of the Father and Son, and insisting that both had some type of physical form which could be copied in the creation of humanity.  (It is not clear, however, whether he understood the physical nature of the Father's body at this early date.  He still, however, taught that [[Joseph Smith's First Vision/The Father as Spirit vs. Embodied|the Father was a distinct personage]] and entity with form that could be seen.)

Joseph's mother, Lucy Mack Smith, also noted that other Christian denominations took issue with the new Church because of its teachings about God, noting that in 1830:

<blockquote>
the different denominations are very much opposed to us.... the Methodists also come, and they rage, for they worship a God without body or parts, and they know that our faith comes in contact with this principle.<ref>{{Book:Smith:Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and Progenitors:Short|pages=145}}</ref>
</blockquote>

All this is less than a year from the Church's organization.  Some members may have not internalized these ideas, or may have been slow to abandon ideas about God rooted in two millennia of Christian history, but MormonThink's claim simply does not match the earliest documents.
}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph began his prophetic career with a "trinitarian" idea of God?}}

==Response to claim: "How is it that JS could remember the precise date of the angel's visit in 1823, but could not remember the precise date of God's appearance to him in 1820?"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Joseph recounted how the visitation of the angel Moroni happened on September 21, 1823. A reasonable (not anti) question is, “How is it that JS could remember the precise date of the angel's visit in 1823, but could not remember the precise date of God's appearance to him in 1820”?
}}
{{propaganda|Because he was 14 years old. He probably didn't even know the date.
}}

==Response to claim: "How do we know that it wasn't Satan (if he exists) that appeared to Joseph?"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=How do we know that it wasn't Satan (if he exists) that appeared to Joseph? 
}}
{{propaganda|Seriously? This is an argument put forth by ''non-believing'' critics?
}}
{{:Question: Could Moroni have been an "angel of Satan"?}}

==Response to claim: "the first vision version of April 1838 added significant material that bolstered his authority during a time of crisis"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=The authors claim that "One of the best critical summaries and perhaps most plausible explanations for the various issues surrounding Joseph's First Vision, can be found in the last chapter of former LDS Church Education System teacher Grant Palmer's book An Insider's View of Mormon Origins. After presenting an impressive series of well-documented arguments against the traditional version we've all been taught in the church, the author proposes a plausible explanation:
<blockquote>
After a mass exodus of high-ranking church leaders including several apostles, all three special witnesses of the BOM and three of the eight witnesses to the BOM, Joseph took to reestablishing his authority. He made many changes to the church including changing the name of the church. He began by attacking those who were circulating unsavory "reports" regarding "the rise and progress of the Church", then told a revised and more impressive version of his epiphany.
<br>
He announced that his initial calling had not come from an angel in 1823, as he had said for over a decade, but from God the Father and Jesus Christ in 1820. The earlier date established his mission independent of the troubling questions and former witnesses associated with the Book of Mormon. Like the priesthood restoration recitals, the first vision version of April 1838 added significant material that bolstered his authority during a time of crisis."
</blockquote>
}}
{{misinformation|MormonThink describes Palmer as a "former LDS Church Education System teacher."  Palmer was disfellowshipped and then left the Church.  Why doesn't MormonThink tell us that? This argument is a reference to the Kirtland crisis of 1837&ndash;38. Warren Parrish was considered by some of the Saints to be the ringleader of the Kirtland crisis. It is, therefore, all the more interesting that it was this same Warren Parrish who acted as scribe in recording a First Vision recital given by the Prophet Joseph Smith on 9 November 1835. When Parrish's 1835 account of the theophany is compared to the 1838 account it becomes glaringly obvious that the story did not change over time, as the critics would like everyone to believe.

But, Joseph didn't just write the experience down in 1835, ''he was telling other people about it.'' This had nothing to do with "reestablishing his authority" three years later. Why is Palmer the first person to figure this out?  If apostles and the Book of Mormon witnesses were at odds with Joseph, surely they knew what story Joseph had been telling them all along?  They were very close to him from the beginning, especially people like Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, and David Whitmer.  Why did ''none'' of these men notice what Palmer wants us to accept?  Why did none of them say, "Hey, Joseph, you're changing your story?"  Quite simply because he didn't, and so it didn't even occur to them.  Otherwise, they'd have been quick to point it out.

From Joseph's journal:
<blockquote>
14 November 1835 • Saturday<br>
A Gentleman called this after noon by the name of Erastus Holmes of Newbury Clemon [Newberry, Clermont] Co. Ohio, he called to make enquiry about the establishment of the church of the latter-day Saints and to be instructed more perfectly in our doctrine &c I commenced and gave him a brief relation of my experience while in my juvenile years, say from 6 years old up to the time I received the first visitation of Angels which was when I was about 14. years old and also the visitations that I received afterward, concerning the book of Mormon, and a short account of the rise and progress of the church, up to this, date he listened verry attentively and seemed highly gratified, and intends to unite with the Church he is a verry candid man indeed and I am much pleased with him.
</blockquote>
}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith revise his account of the First Vision in 1838 to respond to a leadership crisis?}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith lose control of the Church during the 1838 Kirtland apostasy?}}

{{ChurchResponseBar
|link=http://www.lds.org/topics/first-vision-accounts?lang=eng
|title=First Vision Accounts
|publication=Gospel Topics, located on lds.org. 
|summary=The various accounts of the First Vision tell a consistent story, though naturally they differ in emphasis and detail. Historians expect that when an individual retells an experience in multiple settings to different audiences over many years, each account will emphasize various aspects of the experience and contain unique details. Indeed, differences similar to those in the First Vision accounts exist in the multiple scriptural accounts of Paul’s vision on the road to Damascus and the Apostles’ experience on the Mount of Transfiguration.3 Yet despite the differences, a basic consistency remains across all the accounts of the First Vision. Some have mistakenly argued that any variation in the retelling of the story is evidence of fabrication. To the contrary, the rich historical record enables us to learn more about this remarkable event than we could if it were less well documented.
}}
<!--{{SummaryItem
|link=/Sources and links
|subject=Source and link analysis
|summary=A examination of the sources and links used on the critical webpage.
}}-->
{{SummaryItem
|link=/Source quotes without commentary
|subject=Source quotes without critical commentary
|summary=If you would like to read all of the source quotes without wading through all of the "Critic's comments," "Apologetic rebuttals" and "Our Thoughts" sections, we present the critical web page as it would appear if ''only'' the source quotes were provided without any additional commentary. We also try to provide accurate references and direct links to the original source text rather than simply linking to other websites where you have to search for them.
}}
{{endnotes sources}}