View source for Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Lying for the Lord

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|H=Response to MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord"
|T=[[../|MormonThink]]
|A=Anonymous
|<=[[../The Temple|The Temple]]
|>=[[../Doctrine & Covenants|Doctrine & Covenants]]
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<onlyinclude>
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|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Lying for the Lord
|H=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord"
|S=
|L1=Response to claim: "The official version of the First Vision by Joseph Smith....evolved after years of creative editing"
|L2=Response to claim: "Moroni is pictured floating above Joseph or next to his bed, alone in his bedroom"
|L3=Response to claim: "The LDS Church permits members and others to believe that the History of the Church was written by Joseph Smith"
|L4=Response to claim: "The famous Rocky Mountain Prophecy....was a later addition to the official church history and not predicted by Joseph Smith"
|L5=Response to claim: "In the history as it was first published by Joseph Smith, we learn that the angel's name was Nephi"
|L6=Response to claim: "Official Mormon histories have omitted references to Joseph Smith's drinking and use of tobacco"
|L7=Response to claim: "Truthful Mormon history is considered anti-Mormon"
|L8=Response to claim: Joseph "published another version with original revelations revised"
|L9=Response to claim: "Mormons' official publications remove critical references to Joseph Smith's activities as a con man"
|L10=Response to claim: "Some things that are true are not very useful"
|L11=Response to claim: "Mormon histories are not forthcoming about the statements by the three and eight witnesses"
|L12=Response to claim: "The eight witnesses did not all imagine seeing the plates or angel at the same time as the church leads people to believe"
|L13=Response to claim: " Joseph Smith never had gold plates in view when "translating"
|L14=Response to claim: "nor did he use an Old Testament instrument called the Urim and Thummim"
|L15=Response to claim: "One of Joseph Smith's first experiments with adultery began with a teen-age girl named Fanny Ward Alger"
|L16=Response to claim: "The LDS Church led by Joseph Smith, canonized monogamy as God's marriage arrangement"
|L17=Response to claim: Joseph said that "spiritual wifery" was "absolutely false and the doctrine an evil and unlawful thing"
|L18=Response to claim: "the first wife had to first give her consent in order for her husband to take another wife"
|L19=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith secretly married 17 year old Sarah Ann Whitney...He wrote to her parents who approved of the marriage, 'The only thing to be careful of is to find out when Emma comes, then you cannot be safe'"
|L20=Response to claim: Joseph "publicly denied that he practiced plural marriage"
|L21=Response to claim: "Official Mormon histories deceive readers by failing to point out that Joseph exercised poor judgment"
|L22=Response to claim: "The Manifesto of 1890 prohibiting polygamy, was in fact another attempt to dupe the U.S. government and to some extent, ordinary church members"
}}
</onlyinclude>

==Response to claim: "The official version of the First Vision by Joseph Smith....evolved after years of creative editing"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=The official version of the First Vision by Joseph Smith, fashioned in 1838, nearly 20 years after the event, was unknown to church members until published in 1842. It evolved after years of creative editing.
}}
{{propaganda|There was no "creative editing." The different accounts of the vision are actually very consistent, with some accounts containing additional interesting details.
}}
{{:Source:Hinckley:Ensign:October 1984:I am not worried that the Prophet Joseph Smith gave a number of versions of the first vision}}
{{:Source:Gospel Topics:The various accounts of the First Vision tell a consistent story}}
{{:Source:Church History Seminary Teacher Manual:2013:Joseph Smith emphasized different aspects of his vision in his multiple accounts}}
{{:Source:Backman:Ensign:January 1985:On at least four different occasions, Joseph Smith either wrote or dictated to scribes accounts}}
{{:Source:Allen:Improvement Era:April 1970:he continued to do so in varying detail until the year of his death}}
{{:Neuenschwander:Ensign:January 2009:Joseph's vision was at first an intensely personal experience...it became the founding revelation of the Restoration}}
{{:Prothero:American Jesus:2003:in the 1832 version, Jesus appears to Smith alone, and does all the talking himself. Such complaints, however, are much ado about relatively nothing}}

==Response to claim: "Moroni is pictured floating above Joseph or next to his bed, alone in his bedroom"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Moroni is pictured floating above Joseph or next to his bed, alone in his bedroom
|source="Lying for the Lord," MormonThink.com
}}
{{information|Different artists have portray Moroni's visit in a variety of ways. Even ''South Park'' portrays Joseph alone in his bedroom during Moroni' visit.
}}
{{:Question: Why does Church artwork portray Joseph as being alone during Moroni's visit?}}
{{:Question: Why didn't Joseph's siblings wake up during Moroni's visit?}}
{{:Source:Ashurst-McGee"A Pathway to Prophethood:This argument falls short theoretically. For those who do not believe in Joseph's visions, there was nothing to wake anyone anyway.}}
{{:Question: Why didn't Joseph ''say'' that his family didn't wake up during Moroni's visit?}}
{{:Question: Has God used his power to enforce sleep on other occasions?}}

==Response to claim: "The LDS Church permits members and others to believe that the History of the Church was written by Joseph Smith"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=The LDS Church permits members and others to believe that the History of the Church was written by Joseph Smith
|source="Lying for the Lord," MormonThink.com
}}
{{propaganda|Much of the ''History of the Church'' was written after Joseph's death in the first person, as if Joseph had written it. This was the accepted historical style of the time - there was no nefarious intent behind it.
}}
{{:Question: Why is ''History of the Church'' written in first-person, as if Joseph Smith himself wrote it?}}
{{:Question: Who is the author of ''History of the Church''?}}
{{:Question: Is ''History of the Church'' not accurate because Joseph Smith himself did not write it himself?}}

==Response to claim: "The famous Rocky Mountain Prophecy....was a later addition to the official church history and not predicted by Joseph Smith"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=The famous Rocky Mountain Prophecy (the prediction that Salt Lake would be the place the saints would settle after leaving Nauvoo, Illinois) was a later addition to the official church history and not predicted by Joseph Smith.
}}
{{disinformation|This is incorrect.
}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith make "forged predictions" and add them retroactively to the history of the Church that a "mighty people" that would dwell "in the midst of the Rocky Mountains"?}}

==Response to claim: "In the history as it was first published by Joseph Smith, we learn that the angel's name was Nephi"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=In the history as it was first published by Joseph Smith, we learn that the angel's name was Nephi
}}
{{misinformation|This was a scribal error that was propagated into a number of other sources.
}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith originally identify the angel that visited him as "Nephi" instead of "Moroni"?}}
{{:Question: Which sources mention Nephi as the angelic visitor who told Joseph Smith about the gold plates?}}
{{:Question: Are there sources which identify the angel that visited Joseph as "Moroni" that date prior to the "Nephi" error?}}
{{:Question: Did the prophet Nephi visit Joseph at some point in time?}}
{{:Source:Christofferson:The Prophet Joseph Smith:BYUI Devotional:2013:The June 1839 Manuscript History of the Church says it was Nephi who appeared to Joseph Smith in 1823 rather than Moroni}}
{{:Source:Anderson:Confirming Records of Moroni's Coming:Improvement Era:73 9:This wording in the present Pearl of Great Price is modified from the first printing, in which the messenger was identified as "Nephi"}}

==Response to claim: "Official Mormon histories have omitted references to Joseph Smith's drinking and use of tobacco"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Official Mormon histories have omitted references to Joseph Smith's drinking and use of tobacco to create a more favorable impression of their prophet, who if living today (2007) would be unable to pass a worthiness interview and earn a temple recommend in the church he founded.
}}
{{misinformation|The author does not understand how the Word of Wisdom was initially regarded by Joseph Smith and other Latter-day Saints. It was much less strict at the time.
}}
{{:Question: In what way did Joseph Smith implement the Word of Wisdom during his lifetime?}}
{{:Source:Revelations in Context:The Word of Wisdom:it required time to wind down practices that were so deeply ingrained}}

==Response to claim: "Truthful Mormon history is considered anti-Mormon"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Current LDS apostles are refreshingly honest about ordering church members to be dishonest. They have ordered those who [are] employed by the church to suppress the truth about Mormon history. Truthful Mormon history is considered anti-Mormon.
}}
{{propaganda|This is nonsense.
}}
{{:Question: Has the Church "whitewashed" some of the information about its origins to appear more palatable to members and investigators?}}
{{:Question: What are the different levels of knowledge that members may have about Church history?}}

==Response to claim: Joseph "published another version with original revelations revised"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim= Joseph Smith claimed that God revealed truth directly to him....He made arrangements to publish a collection of revealed truths in the Book of Commandments....Two years later he published another version with original revelations revised and more revelations added and called it the Doctrine and Covenants.
}}
{{misinformation|Revelation is added "line upon line." There was no problem with Joseph revising or adding to revelations as the needs of the Church changed. Nobody in the Church at that time saw any problem with it either.
}}
{{:Source:Brigham Young:JD 1:314:I do not even believe that there is a single revelation, among the many God has given to the Church, that is perfect in its fulness}}
{{:Question: How do Mormons understand prophetic revelation?}}
{{:Question: Who made the changes to the Doctrine and Covenants?}}
{{:Question: What are the reasons for the changes to the Doctrine and Covenants?}}
{{:Question: Were the changes to the revelations hidden from the Church members?}}
{{:Question: Have edits to the revelations been discussed in the present day?}}
{{:Question: What changes were made to the Doctrine and Covenants?}}

==Response to claim: "Mormons' official publications remove critical references to Joseph Smith's activities as a con man"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Mormons' official publications remove critical references to Joseph Smith's activities as a con man. Documents discovered in 1971 by Dr. Wesley Walters in Norwich, New York, verify that Joseph Smith was a "glass looker" and that he was arrested, tried and found guilty by a justice of the peace in Bainbridge, New York, in 1826 for this criminal activity.
}}
{{disinformation|Joseph was not a "con man" - this is wishful thinking on the part of the critics. The South Bainbridge hearing was not a trial, and there was no verdict issued. Joseph was simply released. He wasn't even fined. The judge issued a bill for court costs only. The Bainbridge "trial" is even mentioned in the official Church magazine, the ''Ensign''. The critics get everything wrong in this claim.
}}
{{:Question: What is Joseph Smith's 1826 Bainbridge "trial" for "glasslooking"?}}
{{:Question: What events resulted in Joseph Smith's 1826 court appearance in Bainbridge?}}
{{:Question: Why was Joseph fined if he wasn't guilty?}}
{{:Source:Highlights in the Prophet's Life:Ensign:June 1994:Tried and acquitted on fanciful charge of being a "disorderly person"}}
{{:Question: Didn't Hugh Nibley claim that a record of this trial would be "the most damning evidence in existence" against Joseph Smith?}}
{{:Question: What did critics of the Church during Joseph Smith's lifetime think of the 1826 court hearing?}}
{{:Question: What are the details of Joseph Smith's 1826 "trial" for "glasslooking"}}

==Response to claim: "Some things that are true are not very useful"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim="Apostle Boyd Packer declared, 'There is a temptation for the writer or the teacher of Church history to want to tell everything, whether it is worthy or faith promoting or not.' 
'Some things that are true are not very useful.'"
}}
{{information|Elder Packer was not speaking to Mormon historians, he was speaking to members of the Church Educational System (CES)
}}
{{:Question: Why did Elder Boyd K. Packer state that "Some things that are true are not very useful"?}}

==Response to claim: "Mormon histories are not forthcoming about the statements by the three and eight witnesses"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Official Mormon histories are not forthcoming about the statements by the three and eight witnesses respectively, who claim to have seen Smith's gold plates and handled them. The faith promoting histories do not inform investigators or members that their experience was one that took place in their imaginations or as they called it, "spiritual eyes," "eyes of our understanding," "a supernatural vision," or "visions of the mind."
}}
{{propaganda|Actually, critics of the Church are not forthcoming about the many clear statements made by the three and eight witnesses that indicate that they saw and handled the plates. Instead, they focus on a few second- and third-hand account in which scriptural language such as "spiritual eyes" was used in order to discredit the witnesses.
}}
{{:Question: Did the three witnesses's experience of seeing the plates and the angel take place only in their minds?}}
[[Image:WhitmerGravestone.png|frame|right|David Whitmer's gravestone, upon which is engraved his testimony of the Book of Mormon: "The record of the Jews and the record of the Nephites are one."]]
{{:Question: Does the belief that the experience had visionary qualities contradict the claim that the plates were real?}}
{{:Question: Did Martin Harris claim that he only saw the gold plates as they were covered "as a city through a mountain"?}}
{{:Source:Martin Harris:Painesville Telegraph:1831:He had seen and handled them all}}
{{:Source:David Whitmer:Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses:86:1:we were in the spirit when we had the view...but we were in the body also}}
{{:Source:Painesville Telegraph:16 Nov 1830:Cowdery pretends to have a divine mission and conversed with angels}}
{{:Source:Martin Harris:Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses:116:1:Do you see that hand}}
{{:Source:Edward Stevenson:1870:Millennial Star:Martin Harris:my belief is swallowed up in knowledge; for I want to say to you that as the Lord lives I do know that I stood with the Prophet Joseph Smith in the presence of the angel}}
{{:Source:Martin Harris:Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses:117:1:I know what I know}}
{{:Source:Echoes:Ch2:8:David Whitmer:I saw with these eyes and I heard with these ears}}

==Response to claim: "The eight witnesses did not all imagine seeing the plates or angel at the same time as the church leads people to believe"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=The eight witnesses did not all imagine seeing the plates or angel at the same time as the church leads people to believe. The plates were imagined in two groups of four, not all 8 together as popularized in church paintings. (Deseret Evening News, 6 Aug. 1878, Letter to the editor from P. Wilhelm Poulson, M.D., typed transcript, p. 2) Only David Whitmer and perhaps Oliver Cowdery imagined the angel together. Martin Harris removed himself from the group and did not imagine seeing the angel until some three days later. (Grant Palmer, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, Chapter 6. Anthony Metcalf, Ten Years Before the Mast, n.d., microfilm copy, pp. 70-71)
}}
{{propaganda|The spin is strong with this one, as the author flatly states that everyone "imagined" seeing the plates at different times either alone, in groups of two or groups of four. Seriously? 
}}

==Response to claim: "Joseph Smith never had gold plates in view when "translating"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith never had gold plates in view when "translating".
}}
{{misinformation|It is important to remember that what we ''do'' know for certain is that the translation of the Book of Mormon was carried out "by the gift and power of God." These are the only words that Joseph Smith himself used to describe the translation process. We do not know the exact method of translation, other than Joseph employed instruments designated for that purpose: The Nephite interpreters and his own seer stone. Many have offered their own opinions about how these devices "functioned" in the process, but it should be kept in mind that these opinions are given by people who never performed the translation process itself: They can only report on what they observed the Prophet doing at the time. 
|provenance=Jerald and Sandra Tanner, ''The Changing World of Mormonism'', pp. 84-85.
}}

==Response to claim: "nor did he use an Old Testament instrument called the Urim and Thummim"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=nor did he use an Old Testament instrument called the Urim and Thummim. 
|provenance=Jerald and Sandra Tanner, ''The Changing World of Mormonism'', pp. 84-85.
}}
{{misinformation|Historical sources also indicate that at some later point in time, both the Nephite interpreters and Joseph's seer stone were referred to using the term "Urim and Thummim." Whether Joseph used the "original" Urim and Thummim (i.e. Nephite interpreters or "spectacles") or his own seer stone to perform this sacred task is beside the point, and it does not diminish the power of the resulting work. However, at no time did anyone indicate that any of these instruments were the "Old Testament instrument" referred to by the same name.
}}
{{:Question: How exactly did Joseph Smith translate the gold plates?}}
{{:Source:Gospel Topics:Book of Mormon Translation:According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat}}
{{:Source:Nelson:A Treasured Testament:Ensign:July 1993:The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights}}
{{:Source:Marcus B. Nash:Joseph Smith Memorial Devotional:June 2013:This was dictated, word by word, as he looked into instruments the Lord prepared for him, using a hat to shield his eyes from extraneous light}}
{{:Source:Nicholson:The Spectacles, The Stone:This essay focuses primarily on the methods and instruments used in the translation process}}
{{:Source:Gardner:The Gift and the Power:it’s stone that becomes the trigger that allows the seer to do what the seer does}}

==Response to claim: "One of Joseph Smith's first experiments with adultery began with a teen-age girl named Fanny Ward Alger"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=One of Joseph Smith's first experiments with adultery began with a teen-age girl named Fanny Ward Alger
}}
{{propaganda|The Fanny Alger marriage illustrates many of the difficulties which the historian encounters in polygamy. There is little information available, much of it is second hand, and virtually all of it was recorded "after the fact." Even the dates are unclear, and subject to debate. It seems clear, however, that Joseph, Fanny's family, Levi Hancock, and even hostile witnesses saw their relationship as a marriage, albeit an unorthodox one. The witness of Chauncey Webb and Ann Eliza Webb Young make it untenable to claim that only a later Mormon whitewash turned an affair into a marriage.
|provenance=Richard Van Wagoner, ''Mormon Polygamy: A History'', 2nd edition, Signature Books, 1989, pp. 4-11
}}

==Response to claim: "The LDS Church led by Joseph Smith, canonized monogamy as God's marriage arrangement"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=The LDS Church led by Joseph Smith, canonized monogamy as God's marriage arrangement and then did an about-face, adopting polygamy as God's recommended mode of marriage (D&C 42:22-24 and 132)
}}
{{misinformation|The statement itself was not changed between the 1835 and 1844 editions of the D&C. In fact, the statement remained in the D&C until the 1876 edition, even though plural marriage had been taught since at least 1831, practiced in secret since 1836, and practiced openly since 1852. The matter of not removing it in 1852 was simply due to the fact that a new edition of the D&C was not published until 1876.
}}
{{:Question: Why did the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants include a statement of marriage that denied the practice of polygamy at a time when some were actually practicing it?}}
{{:Question: Was Oliver Cowdery aware that some in the Church were practicing polygamy in 1835 at the time he authored the "Article on Marriage"?}}
{{:Question: Was the practice of polygamy general knowledge among Latter-day Saints in 1835 when the "Article on Marriage" was published?}}

==Response to claim: Joseph said that "spiritual wifery" was "absolutely false and the doctrine an evil and unlawful thing"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=It is claimed that Joseph lied when he stated the "spiritual wifery" was "absolutely false and the doctrine an evil and unlawful thing."
}}
{{information|Joseph distinguished "spiritual wifery," a term used by John C. Bennett to justify adulter, from the doctrine of plural marriage.
}}

==Response to claim: "the first wife had to first give her consent in order for her husband to take another wife"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim= Contrary to the traditional LDS claim that the first wife had to first give her consent in order for her husband to take another wife, Emma Smith was unaware of nearly all of Joseph's "marriages" to other women.
}}
{{misinformation|Emma was aware of plural marriage; it is not clear at exactly what point she was made aware, partly due to there being relatively few early sources on the matter. Emma was generally opposed to the practice of plural marriage, and did much to try and thwart it. There were times, however, when Emma gave permission for Joseph's plural marriages, though she soon changed her mind. Emma was troubled by plural marriage, but her difficulties arose partly from her conviction that Joseph was a prophet.
}}
{{:Question: Was Emma aware of the possibility that Joseph could take additional wives even without her consent?}}

==Response to claim: "Joseph Smith secretly married 17 year old Sarah Ann Whitney...He wrote to her parents who approved of the marriage, 'The only thing to be careful of is to find out when Emma comes, then you cannot be safe'"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=
Joseph Smith secretly married 17 year old Sarah Ann Whitney in August 1842 without Emma's knowledge or consent. He had no intention of confessing his conduct to Emma. He wrote to her parents who approved of the marriage, "The only thing to be careful of is to find out when Emma comes, then you cannot be safe, but when she is not here, there is the most perfect safety... Burn this letter as soon as you read it."
}}
{{misinformation|The critics are misinterpreting the intent of Joseph's letter, and they have no way of knowing that Joseph "had no intention of confessing his conduct to Emma."
}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith write a "love letter" to his plural wife Sarah Ann Whitney to request a secret rendezvous?}}
{{:Question: How do critics of the Church portray Joseph Smith's letter to the Whitney family as a "love letter"?}}
{{:Question: What was the real purpose of the letter written by Joseph Smith to the parents of Sarah Ann Whitney?}}

==Response to claim: Joseph "publicly denied that he practiced plural marriage"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Joseph's polygamous activities were unknown to the vast majority of the saints in Nauvoo because of his public and private prevarications. He publicly denied that he practiced plural marriage, showing the ability to consciously mislead his devoted followers without remorse.
}}
{{propaganda|The secrecy of the practice wasn't because Joseph didn't ''try'' to teach the doctrine. It was because of the danger from others.
}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith ever publicly attempt to teach the doctrine of plural marriage?}}
{{:Question: Why did Joseph keep the doctrine of plural marriage private?}}
{{:Question: Why did Joseph Smith say "I had not been married scarcely five minutes...before it was reported that I had seven wives"?}}
{{:Question: Was Joseph Smith ever charged with adultery under Illinois law?}}
{{:Question: Were there any similar cases under Illinois adultery statute which demonstrate that Joseph was not breaking the law?}}

==Response to claim: "Official Mormon histories deceive readers by failing to point out that Joseph exercised poor judgment"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Official Mormon histories deceive readers by failing to point out that Joseph exercised poor judgment, to say it most kindly, in choosing his friends and other church leaders
}}
{{disinformation|Church histories are full of examples of Joseph Smith exercising poor judgment and the consequences that resulted from it. Some examples include:
*The Kirtland Safety Society&mdash;Consequence: apostasy of many Church leaders, including two of the three witnesses.
*The destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor printing press&mdash;Consequence: the martyrdom of Joseph Smith.
}}

==Response to claim: "The Manifesto of 1890 prohibiting polygamy, was in fact another attempt to dupe the U.S. government and to some extent, ordinary church members"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=The Manifesto of 1890 prohibiting polygamy, was in fact another attempt to dupe the U.S. government and to some extent, ordinary church members into believing that the LDS church intended to comply with the mandate of the government to abandon polygamy. 
}}
{{propaganda|The authors at MormonThink simply assume dishonest motives behind everything Church leaders did.
}}
{{:Source:Gospel Topics:The Manifesto and the End of Plural Marriage:The Second Manifesto}}
{{:Source:Gospel Topics:The Manifesto and the End of Plural Marriage:Reed Smoot hearings}}
{{:Source:Gospel Topics:The Manifesto and the End of Plural Marriage:Joseph F. Smith broke the law}}
{{:Question: Why were some plural marriages performed after the Manifesto?}}


{{endnotes sources}}