View source for Criticism of Mormonism/Books/The Changing World of Mormonism/Chapter 4

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|H=Response to claims made in "Chapter 4: Joseph Smith and Money-Digging"
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|A=Jerald and Sandra Tanner
|<=[[../Chapter 3|Chapter 3]]
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|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Books/The Changing World of Mormonism/Chapter 4
|H=Response to claims made in The Changing World of Mormonism, "Chapter 4: Joseph Smith and Money-Digging"
|S=
|L1=Response to claim: 67-70 - Joseph Smith was convicted of "glass looking" in 1826
|L2=Response to claim: 72 - Hugh Nibley is claimed to have said that "...if this court record is authentic it is the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith"
|L3=Response to claim: 75 - Joseph Smith was "deeply involved in money-digging"
|L4=Response to claim: 79 - Joseph said that the angel told him to "quit the company of the money-diggers"
|L5=Response to claim: 80 - The author proposed that Joseph fastened two of his seer stones together to make his "Urim and Thummim"
|L6=Response to claim: 80 - Joseph's father-in-law Isaac Hale claimed that Joseph's occupation was "pretending to see by means of a stone placed in his hat"
|L7=Response to claim: 82 - Joseph Fielding Smith "admitted" that the "seer stone" was sometimes called the Urim and Thummim
|L8=Response to claim: 83 - Mormon apologists have difficulty explaining Joseph's use of seer stones
|L9=Response to claim: 84 - The plates didn't even have to be present while Joseph was translating
|L10=Response to claim: 84 - Joseph Smith originally wanted to obtain the plates in order to get rich, and he was rebuked by the angel
|L11=Response to claim: 85 - The authors say that Brigham Young claimed that a chest of money "moved by itself" into the bank
|L12=Response to claim: 86 - Joseph is claimed to have attempted to "cover up" Oliver Cowdery's alleged work with a divining rod by changing a revelation
|L13=Response to claim: 87 - Joseph went to Salem, Massachusetts to look for money hidden in a cellar
|L14=Response to claim: 89 - Joseph Smith is claimed to have had a "Jupiter Talisman" in his possession at the time of his death
}}
</onlyinclude>			

==Response to claim: 67-70 - Joseph Smith was convicted of "glass looking" in 1826==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=The Changing World of Mormonism
|claim=
Joseph Smith was convicted of "glass looking" in 1826.
|authorsources=<br>
#''Fraser's Magazine'', February, 1873, pp.229-30
}}
{{misinformation|Joseph was not convicted of anything, and he was released
}}
{{:Question: What is Joseph Smith's 1826 South Bainbridge "trial" for "glasslooking"?}}
{{:Question: What events resulted in Joseph Smith's 1826 court appearance in South Bainbridge?}}
{{:Question: Why was Joseph fined if he wasn't guilty?}}

==Response to claim: 72 - Hugh Nibley is claimed to have said that "...if this court record is authentic it is the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=The Changing World of Mormonism
|claim=
Regarding Joseph's "glass looking trial," Hugh Nibley is claimed to have said that "...if this court record is authentic it is the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith," and that ""the most devastating blow to Smith ever delivered."
|authorsources=<br>
#Nibley, ''The Myth Makers'', p. 142
}}
{{misinformation|The authors take Nibley's quote out of context, thus altering the apparent meaning.
}}
{{:Question: Didn't Hugh Nibley claim that a record of this trial would be "the most damning evidence in existence" against Joseph Smith?}}

==Response to claim: 75 - Joseph Smith was "deeply involved in money-digging"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=The Changing World of Mormonism
|claim=
Joseph Smith was "deeply involved in money-digging" during the years that he was preparing to received the gold plates.
|authorsources=<br>
#No source provided.
}}
{{propaganda|Joseph may have continued to be involved in "money digging," however, the authors wish to emphasize this over any other labors that Joseph performed on the farm or for others.
}}
{{:Question: Was Joseph Smith's participation in "money digging" as a youth a blot on his character?}}

<!--====77====
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title={{check}}
|claim=Martin Harris reported stories of treasures "sinking into the earth," and other "strange sights."
}}
*[[Joseph Smith/Money digging]]
|authorsources=<br>
#An interview with Martin Harris, published in ''Tiffany's Monthly'', 1859, p.165
}}
====78-79====
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title={{check}}
|claim=Joseph found a seer stone while helping to dig a well.
}}
*Correct
*[[Specific works/The Hurlbut affidavits#Willard Chase|The Hurlbut affidavits&mdash;Willard Chase]]
|authorsources=<br>
#''Comprehensive History of the Church'' 1:129; 
}} -->

==Response to claim: 79 - Joseph said that the angel told him to "quit the company of the money-diggers"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=The Changing World of Mormonism
|claim=
Joseph said that the angel told him to "quit the company of the money-diggers."
|authorsources=<br>
#''Tiffany's Monthly'', 1859, pp. 163-164, 167, 169
}}
{{information|The source here is not Joseph; it is a late second-hand account. Nevertheless, there is no reason ''not'' to believe that Moroni instructed Joseph to cease being involved with "money diggers."
}}
{{:Question: Was Joseph Smith's participation in "money digging" as a youth a blot on his character?}}

==Response to claim: 80 - The author proposed that Joseph fastened two of his seer stones together to make his "Urim and Thummim"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=The Changing World of Mormonism
|claim=
The author proposed that Joseph fastened two of his seer stones together to make his "Urim and Thummim."
|authorsources=<br>
#Author's opinion
}}
{{propaganda|This is simply the authors' opinion, with no source to support it.		
}}

==Response to claim: 80 - Joseph's father-in-law Isaac Hale claimed that Joseph's occupation was "pretending to see by means of a stone placed in his hat"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=The Changing World of Mormonism
|claim=
Joseph's father-in-law Isaac Hale claimed that Joseph's occupation was "pretending to see by means of a stone placed in his hat."
|authorsources=<br>
#Affidavit of Isaac Hale, as printed in the ''Susquehanna Register'', May 1, 1834
}}
{{information|This is what Isaac Hale, Emma's father, believed.
}}
{{:Question: What did Isaac Hale claim about Joseph Smith in the Hurlbut affidavits?}}

==Response to claim: 82 - Joseph Fielding Smith "admitted" that the "seer stone" was sometimes called the Urim and Thummim==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|claim=<br>
*Bruce R. McConkie said: "The Prophet also had a seer stone which was separate and distinct from the Urim and Thummim, and which (speaking loosely) has been called by some a Urim and Thummim."
*The authors claim that Joseph Fielding Smith "admitted" that the "seer stone" was sometimes called the Urim and Thummim.
|authorsources=<br>
#Bruce R. McConkie, ''Mormon Doctrine'', 1966, p. 818
*{{DoS1|vol=3|start=225}}
}}
{{information|Both the Nephite interpeters and the seer stone were referred to as the "Urim and Thummim."
}}
{{:Source:Gospel Topics:Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters}}
{{:Source:Dirkmaat:Ensign:January 2013:He...referred to it using an Old Testament term, Urim and Thummim...He also sometimes applied the term to other stones he possessed}}
{{:Source:Phelps:The Evening and The Morning Star 1:58:through the aid of a pair of Interpreters, or spectacles—(known, perhaps, in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummim)}}

==Response to claim: 83 - Mormon apologists have difficulty explaining Joseph's use of seer stones==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=The Changing World of Mormonism
|claim=
Mormon apologists have difficulty explaining Joseph's use of seer stones.
|authorsources=<br>
#Authors' opinion.
}}
{{propaganda|Actually, apologists have no difficulty explaining this issue at all.
}}	
{{:Question: How did Joseph use his seer stones as a youth?}}
{{:Source:Gardner:Joseph the Seer:2009 FAIR Conference:long before golden plates complicated his position as a local seer}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph place his seer stone in his hat while looking for lost objects?}}
{{:Question: How many seer stones did Joseph Smith have in his possession?}}
{{:Question: What did Joseph Smith's seer stones look like?}}
{{:Question: How were Joseph Smith's seer stones involved in the translation of the Book of Mormon?}}
{{:Source:Kenneth W. Godfrey:A New Prophet and a New Scripture:Ensign:January 1988:Once Martin found a rock closely resembling the seerstone}}
{{:Question: Why did Joseph eventual stop using the seer stones to receive revelation?}}
{{:Question: Are there any Biblical parallels to Joseph's understanding of the use of seer stones?}}
{{:Question: What happened to Joseph Smith's seer stones?}}

==Response to claim: 84 - The plates didn't even have to be present while Joseph was translating==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=The Changing World of Mormonism
|claim=
The plates didn't even have to be present while Joseph was translating.
|authorsources=<br>
#Arch S. Reynolds, ''How Did Joseph Smith Translate?'',  p. 21.	
}}
{{information|This is correct. One of the purposes of the plates was to provide tangible proof to the witnesses that the record of the Nephites existed.
}}
{{:Question: Why were the gold plates needed at all if they weren't used directly during the translation process?}}

==Response to claim: 84 - Joseph Smith originally wanted to obtain the plates in order to get rich, and he was rebuked by the angel==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=The Changing World of Mormonism
|claim=
Joseph Smith originally wanted to obtain the plates in order to get rich, and he was rebuked by the angel.
{{MA1|author=Oliver Cowdery to W.W. Phelps|article=Letter VIII, Dear Brother|date=October 1835|vol=2|num=1|start=197}}
|authorsources=<br>
#Paul R. Cheesman, "An Analysis of the Accounts Relating Joseph Smith's Early Visions," Master's thesis, Brigham Young University, 1965, pp.130-31
}}
{{information|This may very well be true. Certainly the temptation would have been there.
}}
* Joseph's intent was to follow the command of the angel to get the plates.  He reported that Moroni "added a caution to me, telling me that Satan would try to tempt me, (in consequence of the indigent circumstances of my father's family) to get the plates for the purpose of getting rich. This he forbade me, saying that I must have no other object in view in getting the plates but to glorify God, and must not be influenced by any other motive than that of building his kingdom; otherwise I could not get them." <ref>{{TS1|author=Joseph Smith, Jr.|article=History of Joseph Smith (cont.)|vol=3|num=12|date=15 April 1842|start=754}}</ref>
* However, when he saw them for the first time, Oliver Cowdery says that "a thought would start across the mind on the prospects of obtaining so desirable a treasure--one in all human probability sufficient to raise him above the level of the common earthly fortunes of his fellow men, and relieve his family from want, in which by misfortune and sickness they were placed....his mind would be carried back to its former reflections of poverty, abuse, wealth, grandeur and ease, until before arriving at the place described, this wholly occupied his desire; and when he thought upon the fact of what was previously shown him, it was only with an assurance that he should obtain, and accomplish his desire in relieving himself and friends from want....do not understand me to attach blame to our brother; he was young, and his mind easily turned from correct principles, unless he could be favored with a certain round of experience."</ref>

==Response to claim: 85 - The authors say that Brigham Young claimed that a chest of money "moved by itself" into the bank==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=The Changing World of Mormonism
|claim=
The authors say that Brigham Young claimed that a chest of money "moved by itself" into the bank.
</blockquote>
|authorsources=<br>
#{{JDfairwiki|author=Brigham Young|disc=8|vol=19|start=37}}
}}
{{information|This is correct. Brigham said:
<blockquote>
I will tell you a story which will be marvelous to most of you. It was told me by Porter, whom I would believe just as quickly as any man that lives. When he tells a thing he understands, he will tell it just as he knows it; he is a man that does not lie. He said that on this night, when they were engaged hunting for this old treasure, they dug around the end of a chest for some twenty inches. The chest was about three feet square. One man who was determined to have the contents of that chest, took his pick and struck into the lid of it, and split through into the chest. The blow took off a piece of the lid, which a certain lady kept in her possession until she died. That chest of money went into the bank. Porter describes it so [making a rumbling sound]; he says this is just as true as the heavens are. I have heard others tell the same story.
</blockquote>
}}

==Response to claim: 86 - Joseph is claimed to have attempted to "cover up" Oliver Cowdery's alleged work with a divining rod by changing a revelation==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|claim=
Joseph is claimed to have attempted to "cover up" Oliver Cowdery's alleged work with a divining rod by changing a revelation.
|authorsources=<br>
*Book of Commandments 7:3
*{{s||D&C|8|6-7}}
}}
{{propaganda|It wasn't much of a "cover up," since a number of people were involved with the editing of the revelations before publication. In this case, Sidney Rigdon made the initial change in wording from "sprout" and "thing of nature" to "rod of nature." That wasn't "covering up" the idea that it was a rod...it was actually clarifying it. This was later changed to "gift of Aaron."
}}
{{:Source:Revelations in Context on history.lds.org:Oliver Cowdery's Gift:Cowdery was among those who believed in and used a divining rod}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith attempt to "cover up" Oliver Cowdery's work with a divining rod by changing this revelation?}}

==Response to claim: 87 - Joseph went to Salem, Massachusetts to look for money hidden in a cellar==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=The Changing World of Mormonism
|claim=
Joseph went to Salem, Massachusetts to look for money hidden in a cellar.
|authorsources=<br>
*D&C 111:1-2, 4, 9, 10
*''Comprehensive History of the Church'' 1:412
}}
{{information|Joseph and several others went to look for treasure that they had heard was hidden in the cellar of a house. The Lord did not command them to do this.
}}
{{:Question: Was Joseph Smith commanded by the Lord to go to Salem, Massachusetts to hunt for treasure in the cellar of a house?}}

==Response to claim: 89 - Joseph Smith is claimed to have had a "Jupiter Talisman" in his possession at the time of his death==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=The Changing World of Mormonism
|claim=
Joseph Smith is claimed to have had a "Jupiter Talisman" in his possession at the time of his death.	
|authorsources=<br>
*Reed C. Durham.
*''Mormon Miscellaneous'', published by David C. Martin, vol. 1, no. 1, October 1975, pp.14-15
}}
{{misinformation|Based upon the sources, there is more evidence that he did ''not'' have the talisman on his person at the time of his death.
}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith have a Jupiter talisman on his person at the time of his death?}}
{{:Question: What is the source of the story about Joseph Smith possessing a Jupiter talisman?}}
{{:Question: Could the list of items on Joseph's person at the time of his death have been incomplete?}}
{{:Source:Stephen Robinson:BYUS 27:4:1987:In the case of the Jupiter coin, this same extrapolation error is compounded with a very uncritical acceptance of the artifact in the first place}}

{{endnotes sources}}



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