View source for Criticism of Mormonism/Books/An Insider's View of Mormon Origins/Chapter 5

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|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Books/An Insider's View of Mormon Origins/Chapter 5
|H=Response to claims made in "Chapter 5: Moroni and 'The Golden Pot'"
|T=[[../../|An Insider's View of Mormon Origins]]
|A=Grant Palmer
|<=[[../Chapter 4|Claims made in "Chapter 4: Evangelical Protestantism in the Book of Mormon"]]
|>=[[../Chapter 6|Claims made in "Chapter 6: Witnesses to the Golden Plates"]]
}}
[[File:Chart.insiders.view.chapter 5 golden pot.png|center|frame]]
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{{H2
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Books/An Insider's View of Mormon Origins/Index/Chapter 5
|H=Response to claims made in An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, "Chapter 5: Moroni and 'The Golden Pot'"
|S=
|L1=Response to claim: 138 - The author claims that the story of "The Golden Pot" involves the copying and translation of ancestral records
|L2=Response to claim: 139-142 - The author claims that Luman Walters likely informed Joseph Smith about the story of "The Golden Pot"
|L3=Response to claim: 157 - Joseph was told to bring Emma to the hill Cumorah on "the next fall equinox"
|L4=Response to claim: 157 - Joseph's father said that Joseph married Emma in order to ensure success in obtaining the plates
|L5=Response to claim: 163 - Joseph regarded the autumnal equinox as a special day
|L6=Response to claim: 172 - The author claims that Joseph's later narratives talk about a more biblical-type angel and that many of the "magical elements" of the Moroni story began disappearing around 1830
}}
</onlyinclude>

==Response to claim: 138 - The author claims that the story of "The Golden Pot" involves the copying and ''translation'' of ancestral records==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
The author claims that the story of "The Golden Pot" involves the copying and ''translation'' of ancestral records
|authorsources=<br>
#Author's speculation
}}
{{disinformation|The claim is false, and the author modifies what the source states.
}}
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/An Insider's View of Mormon Origins/Use of sources/Citation abuse: "Copying" becomes "translation"}}

==Response to claim: 139-142 - The author claims that Luman Walters likely informed Joseph Smith about the story of "The Golden Pot"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
Luman Walters likely informed Joseph Smith about the story of "The Golden Pot"
|authorsources=<br>
#Author's speculation
}}
{{disinformation|This is pure conjecture on the part of the author&mdash;there is no evidence to support this assertion.
}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith develop the story of Moroni's visit based upon information contained in the story ''The Golden Pot''?}}

==Response to claim: 157 - Joseph was told to bring Emma to the hill Cumorah on "the next fall equinox"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=According to the author, Joseph Knight, Sr. said that Joseph was told to bring Emma to the hill Cumorah on "the next fall equinox."
|authorsources=<br>
#Joseph Knight Sr.
}}
{{misinformation|Joseph Knight says nothing about "the next fall equinox": That is the author's addition. Here is what Knight said:
<blockquote>
But before September Came his oldest Brother Died. Then he was Disapinted and did not [k]now what to do. But when the 22nt Day of September Came he went to the place and the personage appeard and told him he Could not have it now. But the 22nt Day of September nex he mite have the Book if he Brot with him the right person. Joseph says, "who is the right Person?" The answer was you will know. Then he looked in his glass and found it was Emma Hale, Daughter of old Mr Hail of Pensylvany, a girl that he had seen Before, for he had Bin Down there Before with me.<ref>Joseph Knight, Sr. "22 Sept. 1827. Manuscript of the early History of Joseph Smith finding of plates, &c. &c."</ref>
</blockquote>
}}
{{:Question: Was the fact that the recovery of the Book of Mormon plates occurred on the autumnal equinox somehow significant?}}

==Response to claim: 157 - Joseph's father said that Joseph married Emma in order to ensure success in obtaining the plates==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=Joseph's father said that Joseph married Emma in order to ensure success in obtaining the plates.
|authorsources=<br>
#Fayette Lapham
}}
{{misinformation|The claim that Joseph's father said that Joseph married Emma in order to successfully obtain the plates came from Henry Harris. However, Harris does not appear to be a very reliable source when one examines all of the claims that he made about the Smith family.
}}
{{:Question: What did Henry Harris claim about Joseph Smith in the Hurlbut affidavits?}}

==Response to claim: 163 - Joseph regarded the autumnal equinox as a special day==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=
Joseph regarded the autumnal equinox as a special day.
|authorsources=<br>
*1838, vv. 29, 48-54, 59
*L. Smith, 133-34
}}
{{disinformation|Joseph makes no mention of the "autumnal equinox," and there is no indication that the 22nd of September was special to him for any other reason than his scheduled meeting with the angel Moroni.
}}
{{:Question: Was Joseph Smith aware that the date of the autumnal equinox was somehow significant?}}

==Response to claim: 172 - The author claims that Joseph's later narratives talk about a more biblical-type angel and that many of the "magical elements" of the Moroni story began disappearing around 1830==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=An Insider's View of Mormon Origins
|claim=<br>
*It is claimed that variants of the Moroni story were told and then standardized after 1830. 
*The author claims that Joseph's later narratives talk about a more biblical-type angel and that many of the "magical elements" of the Moroni story began disappearing around 1830.
|authorsources=<br>
#Author's opinion.
}}
{{propaganda|There is no record of Joseph Smith himself calling the visit of the angel Moroni anything other than a divine manifestation. How does one describe a ''less'' "biblical-type angel"?		
}}
{{:Question: Did the story of Moroni's visit to Joseph Smith evolve from that of a magical spiritual treasure guardian to an "angel"?}}

{{endnotes sources}}