View source for Criticism of Mormonism/Books/Mormonism 101/Chapter 5

{{FairMormon}}  
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|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Books/Mormonism 101/Chapter 5
|H=Response to claims made in "Chapter 5: The Fall"
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|T=[[../../|Mormonism 101]]
|A=Bill McKeever and Eric Johnson
|<=[[../Chapter 4|Chapter 4: Preexistence and the Second Estate]]
|>=[[../Chapter 6|Chapter 6: Apostasy]]
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{{H2
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Books/Mormonism 101/Chapter 5
|H=Response to claims made in Mormonism 101, "Chapter 5: The Fall"
|S=
|L1=Response to claim: 72-74 - The authors claim that Mormons believe that the Fall of Adam was a "fall upward"
|L2=Response to claim: 74 - "Contrary to the LDS concept of the fall, the Bible shows that this event was the result of disobeying God"
|L3=Response to claim: 74 - "If transgression was a positive and it was a blessing to leave Eden, why does Genesis 3:24 say that God had to drive them out?"
|L4=Response to claim: 74-75 - Mormons believe that "Satan was telling the truth" when he told Eve that she "shall be as gods"
|L5=Response to claim: 76 - According to the authors, Mormons distinguish between "sin" and "transgression" in order to "minimize the severity of Adam's disobedience"
|L6=Response to claim: 76-77 -Joseph Smith equated "sin" and "transgression"
|L7=Response to claim: 77 - The authors claim that Mormons believe that "Satan told the truth in the Garden of Eden," as opposed to Christianity, which believes that "Satan deceived Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden"
}}
</onlyinclude>

==Response to claim: 72-74 - The authors claim that Mormons believe that the Fall of Adam was a "fall upward"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Mormonism 101
|claim=
The authors claim that Mormons believe that the Fall of Adam was a "fall upward." They claim that the decision by Adam and Eve to disobey the Father has been "continually commended" by LDS leaders.
|authorsources=<br>
*{{s||Moses|5|10-11}}
*Joseph Fielding Smith, ''Doctrines of Salvation'' 3:74. Smith notes that the Garden of Eden was located on the American continent.
*Talmage, ''Articles of Faith'', p. 70.
*McConkie, ''The Promised Messiah'', p. 222.
*Widtsoe, ''Evidences and Reconciliations'', p. 195.
*Robert L. Millet, ''Ensign'' (January 1994): 10.
*Dallin H. Oaks, ''Ensign'' (November 1993): 73.
}}
{{misinformation|LDS doctrine does not praise the decision to disobey.  However, it acknowledges that God anticipated their disobedience, and that this eventual disobedience was part of God's plan.  God had prepared the atonement of His Son to permit us the benefits which came from Adam and Eve's disobedience, without requiring that they or we suffer forever because of it.  Because of the atonement and God's plan of happiness, LDS doctrine does not see the Fall as unalloyed tragedy.

The fall was not "upward," but it set in motion the conditions which--because of God's plan and the sacrifice of His Son--could enable us to move upward.

The only other option must assume that the Fall was not part of God's plan, and that it required Him to come up with "Plan B" for the salvation of mankind.  Would the authors prefer this view of God and his purposes, that they are so easily thwarted?
}}
{{:Question: What to Latter-day Saints believe regarding the concept of "original sin"?}}

==Response to claim: 74 - "Contrary to the LDS concept of the fall, the Bible shows that this event was the result of disobeying God"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Mormonism 101
|claim=
The authors claim,
<blockquote>
Contrary to the LDS concept of the fall, the Bible shows that this event was the result of disobeying God.
</blockquote>
}}
{{disinformation|This claim by the authors directly contradicts {{s||Alma|42|12}}:
<blockquote>
And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience.
</blockquote>
}}

==Response to claim: 74 - "If transgression was a positive and it was a blessing to leave Eden, why does Genesis 3:24 say that God had to drive them out?"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Mormonism 101
|claim=
The authors claim,
<blockquote>
If transgression was a positive and it was a blessing to leave Eden, why does {{b||Genesis|3|24}} say that God had to drive them out?<ref>{{CriticalWork:McKeever Johnson:Mormonism 101|pages=74}}</ref>
</blockquote>
}}
{{misinformation|It was not a "blessing to leave Eden," but leaving Eden allowed God's plan to continue.  The fall was not unexpected, or unprepared for, by God. LDS scripture acknowledges the driving from Eden, and the negative consequences:
*"And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth." ({{s|2|Nephi|2|19}})
*"And he said unto them: Because that Adam fell, we are; and by his fall came death; and we are made partakers of misery and woe." ({{s||Moses|6|48}})
}}

==Response to claim: 74-75 - Mormons believe that "Satan was telling the truth" when he told Eve that she "shall be as gods"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Mormonism 101
|claim=
Mormons believe that "Satan was telling the truth" when he told Eve that she "shall be as gods." The authors conclude: "is it wise to trust a promise from one who is called the 'father of lies'?"
|authorsources=<br>
#{{s||Genesis|3|3-5}}
}}
{{misinformation|The Bible makes it clear that this ''was'' the truth, since God said so only a few verses later: "the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" ({{b||Genesis|3|22}}).  If the authors wish to claim that Satan lied in this case, they must also accept that ''God'' then lied.  Satan's lie was that spiritual and physical death would not result from partaking of the fruit.
}}
{{Detail|Deification of man}}

==Response to claim: 76 - According to the authors, Mormons distinguish between "sin" and "transgression" in order to "minimize the severity of Adam's disobedience"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Mormonism 101
|claim=
According to the authors, Mormons distinguish between "sin" and "transgression" in order to "minimize the severity of Adam's disobedience." The authors claim that this contradicts {{s|1|John|3|4}}, which states that "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
|authorsources=<br>
#{{Ensign1|author=Dallin H. Oaks|date=November 1993|article=The Great Plan of Happiness|start=73}} {{link|url=http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=3c4b425e0848b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD}}
}}
{{misinformation|The intent of this distinction is not to "minimize the severity" of Adam's act, but to high-light the fact that someone without a knowledge of good and evil is not morally culpable in the same sense as someone who has knowledge of good and evil.  Adam and Eve did not know good from evil&mdash;they were much like little children, who might understand that something had been forbidden, but not have the moral sense or insight to perceive why this was so, or why disobedience was such a grave matter.

LDS scripture makes it clear that without the atonement of Christ, Adam's act would have been eternal and irrevocable in its consequences&mdash;hardly an attempt to minimize its seriousness:
<blockquote>
And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord. And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience.... ({{s||Alma|42|11-12}}).
</blockquote>

The article cited by Elder Oaks makes it clear that he is not minimizing the seriousness of disobedience, but insisting that Eve's action does not condemn her and all women afterward:
<blockquote>
For reasons that have not been revealed, this transition, or “fall,” could not happen without a transgression—an exercise of moral agency amounting to a willful breaking of a law (see {{s||Moses|6|59}}). This would be a planned offense, a formality to serve an eternal purpose. The Prophet Lehi explained that “if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen” ({{s|2|Nephi|2|22}}), but would have remained in the same state in which he was created....
:Some Christians condemn Eve for her act, ''concluding that she and her daughters are somehow flawed by it''. Not the Latter-day Saints! Informed by revelation, we celebrate Eve’s act and honor her wisdom and courage in the great episode called the Fall....{{ia}}
</blockquote>
}}

==Response to claim: 76-77 -Joseph Smith equated "sin" and "transgression"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Mormonism 101
|claim=
The authors claim that Joseph Smith equated "sin" and "transgression," and that Paul stated that death was the result of Adam's ''sin'', not ''transgression.''
|authorsources=<br>
#{{s||D&C|132|26}}
*{{s||Romans|5|12}}
*{{s||Romans|5|15}}
}}
{{misinformation|As the article by Dallin H. Oaks cited by the authors above indicates, there is not always a distinction between "sin" and "transgression," and that the author's intent is important for deciding if such a distinction is meaningful:
<blockquote>
This suggested contrast between a ''sin'' and a ''transgression'' reminds us of the careful wording in the second article of faith: “We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression” (emphasis added). It also echoes a familiar distinction in the law. Some acts, like murder, are crimes because they are inherently wrong. Other acts, like operating without a license, are crimes only because they are legally prohibited. Under these distinctions, the act that produced the Fall was not a sin—inherently wrong—but a transgression—wrong because it was formally prohibited. These words are not always used to denote something different, but this distinction seems meaningful in the circumstances of the Fall {{io}}.
</blockquote>
Thus, Paul is not making the distinction which Joseph was making.
* The authors omit a verse in Romans 5 between the verses (12 and 15) which they cite, which discusses transgression:
: 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come ({{b||Romans|5|14}}.
<!--* The authors' interpretation of these verses is also flawed:
: 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law ({{b||Romans|5|12-13))}.
* Paul is not saying specifically that Adam's act was a sin (as distinct from a transgression), but rather that by Adam's act, the possibility of sin and the corruption of sin entered because of the Fall.  - I'm not sure if this logic holds? GLS -->
* The KJV of the Bible uses both terms on occasion:
** "Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin...." ({{b||Exodus|34|7}}).
**"How many are mine iniquities and sins?  make me to know my transgression and my sin" ({{b||Job|13|23}}).
**"If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom...." ({{b||Job|31|33}}).
** "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." ({{b|1|Timothy|2|14}}).
}}

==Response to claim: 77 - The authors claim that Mormons believe that "Satan told the truth in the Garden of Eden," as opposed to Christianity, which believes that "Satan deceived Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Mormonism 101
|claim=
The authors claim that Mormons believe that "Satan told the truth in the Garden of Eden," as opposed to Christianity, which believes that "Satan deceived Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden."
}}
{{misinformation|The reality is that Latter-day Saints believe that Satan mixed truth with lie in order to entice Eve to partake of the forbidden fruit. Therefore, claiming the Mormons believe that "Satan told the truth" is an omission of information on the part of the authors and an attempt to skew LDS belief.

The truth Satan told was that eating of the fruit would make them "as gods, knowing good and evil" ({{b||Genesis|3|5}}).  The Bible makes it clear that this ''was'' the truth, since God said so: "the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" ({{b||Genesis|3|22}}).  If the authors wish to claim that Satan lied in this case, they must also accept that ''God'' then lied.
}}

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