View source for Detailed response to CES Letter, Science

{{FairMormon}}
{{H1
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Science Concerns & Questions
|H=Response to "Letter to a CES Director: Science Concerns & Questions"
|S=
|L1=
|T=[[../|Letter to a CES Director]]
|A=Jeremy Runnells
|<=[[../Temples & Freemasonry Concerns & Questions|Temples & Freemasonry Concerns & Questions]]
|>=[[../Scriptures Concerns & Questions|Scriptures Concerns & Questions]]
}}
[[File:Chart CES Letter science.png|center|frame]]
<onlyinclude>
{{H2
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Science Concerns & Questions
|H=Response to section "Science Concerns & Questions"
|S=The author concludes that "The problem Mormonism encounters is that so many of its claims are well within the realm of scientific study, and as such, can be proven or disproven.  To cling to faith in these areas, where the overwhelming evidence is against it, is willful ignorance, not spiritual dedication." 
|L1=Response to claim: "To cling to faith in these areas, where the overwhelming evidence is against it, is willful ignorance, not spiritual dedication"
|D1=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
|L2=Response to claim: "no death of any kind (humans, all animals, birds, fish, dinosaurs, etc.) on this earth until the 'Fall of Adam'"
|D2=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
|L3=Response to claim: "If Adam and Eve are the first humans, how do we explain the 14 other Hominin species who lived and died 35,000 – 250,000 years before Adam?"
|D3=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
|L4=Response to claim: "Science has proven that there was no worldwide flood 4,500 years ago"
|D4=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
|L5=Response to claim: "This doesn’t stop FAIR from acknowledging and admitting to the impossibility of Noah’s Ark and the global flood"
|D5=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
|L6=Response to claim: "Other events/claims that science has discredited"
|D6=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
|L7=Response to claim: "the sun getting its light from Kolob"
|D7=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
|L8=Response to claim: "They carried honey bees across the ocean? Swarms of them?"
|D8=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
|L9=Response to claim: "Does the lack of an explicit statement that they took their prized bees onboard their submarines to the Promised Land necessarily mean they didn't?"
|D9=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
|L10=Response to claim: "Apparently Joseph forgot that he claimed Adam saw God face to face (God of the OT being Jesus). It’s also implied that Seth, Cain, and Enoch did as well. All of this contradicts the claim that the Brother of Jared is the first person to see the spirit body of Christ."
|D10= Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
|L11=Response to claim: "A beheaded man doing a pushup and trying to breathe? Not likely"
|D11=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
}}
</onlyinclude>
==Response to claim: "To cling to faith in these areas, where the overwhelming evidence is against it, is willful ignorance, not spiritual dedication"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision)
|claim=The problem Mormonism encounters is that so many of its claims are well within the realm of scientific study, and as such, can be proven or disproven.  To cling to faith in these areas, where the overwhelming evidence is against it, is willful ignorance, not spiritual dedication.
}}
{{propaganda|This is pure arrogance on the part of the author: he ''knows'' that anybody who has faith is not doing so out of "spiritual dedication," but rather "willful ignorance." There is no acknowledgement that a believer might have a strong and unshakable faith, and the author therefore portrays believers as merely "clinging" to their faith in the face of what he considers to be overwhelming evidence.

Merriam-Webster's definition of the word "arrogance":
<blockquote>
ar·ro·gance noun \ˈer-ə-gən(t)s, ˈa-rə-\
: an insulting way of thinking or behaving that comes from believing that you are better, smarter, or more important than other people
</blockquote>
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Science Concerns & Questions
}}
{{inconsistency|
*The author states earlier in his Letter, "it would likewise be arrogant of a Latter-day Saint to deny their spiritual experiences and testimonies of the truthfulness of their own religion." 
*However, with regard to Latter-day Saints who believe in their ''own'' spiritual experiences, the author arrogantly states that they are "clinging to faith" because of "willful ignorance" rather than spiritual dedication}}

==Response to claim: "no death of any kind (humans, all animals, birds, fish, dinosaurs, etc.) on this earth until the 'Fall of Adam'"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision)
|claim=2 Nephi 2:22 and Alma 12:23-24 state there was no death of any kind (humans, all animals, birds, fish, dinosaurs, etc.) on this earth until the “Fall of Adam”, which according to D&C 77:6-7 occurred 7,000 years ago.  It is scientifically established there has been life and death on this planet for billions of years.  How does the Church reconcile this?
}}
{{misinformation|The Church leaves the interpretation of whether or not there was "no death of any kind" on the entire earth up to the member.
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Science Concerns & Questions
|L1=Question: What does the Church teach on the subject of death before the Fall of Adam?
|L2=Question: Was there no death on the entire earth before the Fall?
|L3=Question: What was the state of things on the Earth prior to the placement of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden?
|L4=Question: What changes have been made to the Gospel Principles manual regarding the question of death on the earth before the Fall of Adam?
|L5=Question: Is the concept of no death before the fall on the ''entire earth'' Church doctrine?
}}
{{:Question: What does the Church teach on the subject of death before the Fall of Adam?}}
{{:Question: Was there no death on the entire earth before the Fall?}}
{{:Question: What was the state of things on the Earth prior to the placement of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden?}}
{{:Question: What changes have been made to the ''Gospel Principles'' manual?}}
{{:Question: Is the concept of no death before the fall on the ''entire earth'' Church doctrine?}}

==Response to claim: "If Adam and Eve are the first humans, how do we explain the 14 other Hominin species who lived and died 35,000 – 250,000 years before Adam?"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision)
|claim=If Adam and Eve are the first humans, how do we explain the 14 other Hominin species who lived and died 35,000 – 250,000 years before Adam?  When did those guys stop being human?
}}
{{misinformation|Even Brigham Young acknowledged that this will "remain a matter of speculation."
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Science Concerns & Questions
|L1=Question: What is the Church's position on Adam and Eve?
|L2=Brigham Young (1871): "whether the Lord...made it in six days or in as many millions of years, is and will remain a matter of speculation in the minds of men unless he give revelation on the subject"
}}
{{:Question: What is the Church's position on Adam and Eve?}}
{{:Brigham Young (1871): "whether the Lord...made it in six days or in as many millions of years, is and will remain a matter of speculation in the minds of men unless he give revelation on the subject"}}

==Response to claim: "Science has proven that there was no worldwide flood 4,500 years ago"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision)
|claim=Science has proven that there was no worldwide flood 4,500 years ago....There are a bunch of other problems with the global flood and Noah’s ark story but I find it incredible that this is supposed to be taken literally considering the abundance of evidence against it.<br><br>Other events/claims that science has discredited: Humans and animals having their origins from Noah’s family and the animals contained in the ark 4,500 years ago.
}}
{{misinformation|The Church does not require a belief in a global flood, despite BYU professor Donald W. Parry's article in the ''Ensign''. What the Church teaches is that Noah was a real prophet, and that he was commanded to save his family along with a number of animals in an ark from a flood which covered his world.
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Science Concerns & Questions
|L1=Question: How do Latter-day Saints reconcile scriptural accounts of the Flood of Noah with scientific evidence of continuous human habitation on the earth?
|L2=John A. Widtsoe (1943): "The Old Testament records a flood that was just over fifteen cubits (sometimes assumed to be about twenty-six feet) deep and covered the entire landscape"
|L3=Question: Why does the Church teach that the flood was a global event?
|L4=Question: How could the Garden of Eden have been in Missouri if the Flood was local?
|L5=Question: Doesn't the Bible say that the continents were divided immediately after the Flood?
}}
{{:Question: How do Latter-day Saints reconcile scriptural accounts of the Flood of Noah with scientific evidence of continuous human habitation on the earth?}}
{{:John A. Widtsoe (1943): "The Old Testament records a flood that was just over fifteen cubits (sometimes assumed to be about twenty-six feet) deep and covered the entire landscape"}}
{{:Question: Why does the Church teach that the flood was a global event?}}
{{:Question: How could the Garden of Eden have been in Missouri if the Flood was local?}}
{{:Question: Doesn't the Bible say that the continents were divided immediately after the Flood?}}

==Response to claim: "This doesn’t stop FAIR from acknowledging and admitting to the impossibility of Noah’s Ark and the global flood"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title={{DebunkingFM}} (20 July 2014 revision)
|claim=This doesn’t stop FAIR from acknowledging and admitting to the impossibility of Noah’s Ark and the global flood. 
}}
{{disinformation|This is a misrepresentation. FairMormon has never claimed "the impossibility of Noah's ark." We believe that the prophet Noah existed, that he was commanded to build an ark, that he was commended to gather animals, and that he and his family were saved from a flood which covered his world. It is only the scope of that flood that produces differences of opinion.
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Science Concerns & Questions
|L1=Question: Are Church members required to believe in a global flood?
}}
{{strawman}}
{{:Question: Are Church members required to believe in a global flood?}}

==Response to claim: "Other events/claims that science has discredited"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision)
|claim=other events/claims that science has discredited.
}}
{{propaganda|Latter-day Saints welcome and integrate new scientific discoveries into their world view. They view God as the greatest "scientist" of all. We do not claim to know how everything was accomplished in the creation of this world.
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Science Concerns & Questions
|L1=Question: Do Mormons believe that faith and science are mutually exclusive?
|L2=Henry Eyring: "Is there any conflict between science and religion? There is no conflict in the mind of God, but often there is conflict in the minds of men"
|L3=Question: Do Mormons believe that if there is a conflict between science and religion, that the science is incorrect?
|L4=Brigham Young (1871): "whether the Lord...made it in six days or in as many millions of years, is and will remain a matter of speculation in the minds of men"
|L5=Oaks: "We are supposed to learn by both reason and revelation, and that does not happen when we compartmentalize science and religion"
}}
{{:Question: Do Mormons believe that faith and science are mutually exclusive?}}
{{:Henry Eyring: "Is there any conflict between science and religion? There is no conflict in the mind of God, but often there is conflict in the minds of men"}}
{{:Question: Do Mormons believe that if there is a conflict between science and religion, that the science is incorrect?}}
{{:Brigham Young (1871): "whether the Lord...made it in six days or in as many millions of years, is and will remain a matter of speculation in the minds of men"}}
{{:Oaks: "We are supposed to learn by both reason and revelation, and that does not happen when we compartmentalize science and religion"}}

==Response to claim: "the sun getting its light from Kolob"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision)
|claim=
the sun <span style="color:blue">getting</span> its light from Kolob (April 2013)<br>
the sun <span style="color:blue">receives</span> its 'light <span style="color:blue">from the revolutions of</span> Kolob' (October 2014)
}}
{{misinformation|This refers to an explanation given for an item in Book of Abraham Facsimile 2. The description is symbolic, and is not referring to "photons."
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Science Concerns & Questions
|L1=Question: What is the light which comes from the presence of God?
|L2=Question: Does the Book of Abraham state that the sun gets its photons from Kolob?
}}
{{argument from ignorance}}
{{:Question: What is the light which comes from the presence of God?}}
{{:Question: Does the Book of Abraham state that the sun gets its photons from Kolob?}}

==Response to claim: "They carried honey bees across the ocean?  Swarms of them?"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision)
|claim=They carried honey bees across the ocean?  Swarms of them?
|followup=Response to claim: "Does the lack of an explicit statement that they took their prized bees onboard their submarines to the Promised Land necessarily mean they didn't?"
|followupdoc="Debunking FAIR’s Debunking" (20 July 2014 revision)
|followuplink=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Science Concerns & Questions
}}
{{misinformation|The Book of Mormon does not state that the Jaredites brought honeybees across the ocean. It says that they brought them to the coast of the Old World.
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Science Concerns & Questions
|L1=Question:Did the Jaredites bring swarms of bees across the ocean in their barges
|L2=Padilla et al.: "The maya codex Tro-Cortesianus shows drawings of bees and parts of honey combs"
|L3=Head: "The indigenous American bee is the melipona (a stingless bee). It produces only about one kilogram of honey per year"
}}
{{:Question:Did the Jaredites bring swarms of bees across the ocean in their barges}}
{{:Padilla et al.: "The maya codex Tro-Cortesianus shows drawings of bees and parts of honey combs"}}
{{:Head: "The indigenous American bee is the melipona (a stingless bee). It produces only about one kilogram of honey per year"}}

==Response to claim: "Does the lack of an explicit statement that they took their prized bees onboard their submarines to the Promised Land necessarily mean they didn't?"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title={{DebunkingFM}} (20 July 2014 revision)
|claim=However, the Jaredites regarded their bees very highly, giving them a special name (Deseret), which Moroni considered important and relevant enough to include in his very short history. Does the lack of an explicit statement that they took their prized bees onboard their submarines to the Promised Land necessarily mean they didn't? I'm of the interpretation that they took their prized bees with them. They had already carried their bees for many years in their travels in the wilderness. They carried their swarms of bees to the seashore. When they arrived at the seashore, they were there with their prized bees for four additional years.
Why would the Jaredites jettison their cherished bees, which were obviously very special and important to them, when they left to the Promised land?
}}
{{propaganda|The author is now setting up a strawman so that he can knock it down. He attempts to salvage his previous conclusion that the Book of Mormon ''asserts'' that the Jaredites took their bees with them on the barges, even though it doesn't, so that he can knock the idea down by asserting that it is an impossibility. The possibility that the Book of Mormon does not assert that they took bees on the barges destroys the critic's argument. In order to preserve his argument, the author must assert that they aren't simply honey bees: he must now assert that they are regarded "very highly" as "prized bees" (mentioned three times), "cherished bees" and "special and important" bees. His evidence of this? The fact that Moroni said they were called "deseret." He infers all of this from a single Book of Mormon verse:
<blockquote>
Ether 2:3: And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee; and thus they did carry with them swarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, seeds of every kind.
</blockquote>
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Science Concerns & Questions
}}
{{argument from silence|The scripture simply says that they carried honey bees with them to the coast, and that they were called "deseret." It says nothing about the Jaredites regarding their bees "very highly" or being "prized," "cherished" or "special." It says nothing about them carrying bees in the Jaredite barges. The author simply infers all of these conclusions.
}}
==Response to claim: "Apparently Joseph forgot that he claimed Adam saw God face to face (God of the OT being Jesus). It’s also implied that Seth, Cain, and Enoch did as well. All of this contradicts the claim that the Brother of Jared is the first person to see the spirit body of Christ.'"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title= Debunking FAIR's Debunking (Debunking FairMormon) (20 July 2014 revision)
|claim="Apparently Joseph forgot that he claimed Adam saw God face to face (God of the OT being Jesus). It’s also implied that Seth, Cain, and Enoch did as well. All of this contradicts the claim that the Brother of Jared is the first person to see the spirit body of Christ.'"
}}
{{misinformation| This passage has been addressed by Jeffrey R. Holland and there are a number of ways to look at it faithfully. 
|L1=Question: Why did Jesus say “Never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created” to the Brother of Jared, when Enoch and others had already seen Jehovah face to face?
}}
{{special pleading| The author uses a list from the ex-mormon subreddit that only considers one reading of this passage and then subsequently uses it to claim that Joseph was inconsistent in his theology. 
}}

{{:Question: Why did Jesus say “Never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created” to the Brother of Jared, when Enoch and others had already seen Jehovah face to face?}}

==Response to claim: "A beheaded man doing a pushup and trying to breathe? Not likely"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title={{DebunkingFM}} (20 July 2014 revision)
|claim=A beheaded man doing a pushup and trying to breathe? Not likely.
}}
{{misinformation|Actually, it is not only possible, but an accurate description.
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Science Concerns & Questions
|L1=Question: How is it possible for Shiz, after he had been beheaded, to raise up on his hands and struggle for breath?
}}
{{argument from ignorance}}
{{:Question: How is it possible for Shiz, after he had been beheaded, to raise up on his hands and struggle for breath?}}

{{endnotes sources}}

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[[Category:Letter to a CES Director]]

[[es:La crítica del mormonismo/Documentos en línea/Carta a un Director del SEI/Inquietudes y Preguntas de la Ciencia]]
[[pt:A crítica do mormonismo/Documentos online/Carta a um Diretor SEI/Preocupações e questões científicas]]