View source for Criticism of Mormonism/Books/Mormonism 101/Chapter 2

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|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Books/Mormonism 101/Chapter 2
|H=Response to claims made in "Chapter 2: Jesus"
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|T=[[../../|Mormonism 101]]
|A=Bill McKeever and Eric Johnson
|<=[[../Chapter 1|Chapter 1: God the Father]]
|>=[[../Chapter 3|Chapter 3: The Trinity]]
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{{H2
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Books/Mormonism 101/Chapter 2
|H=Response to claims made in Mormonism 101, "Chapter 2: Jesus"
|S=
|L1=Response to claim: 40 - The authors repeat the common claim that, because Latter-day Saints differ in understanding the traits of the Lord Jesus Christ, they worship "a different Jesus"
|L2=Response to claim: 41 - "We cannot imagine, for instance, a Baptist telling a Lutheran, 'Our Jesus is basically the one Lutherans worship.' A Presbyterian would not tell a Methodist that he does not believe in the traditional Christ"
|L3=Response to claim: 41 - "Proper belief in the person of Jesus Christ has always been considered essential to Christian fellowship"
|L4=Response to claim: 42 - "the Mormon Jesus, by becoming a god without having to live a human life on a previous planet, did something that his own 'father' could not accomplish"
|L5=Response to claim: 42 - "How could Jesus obtain godhood in the preexistence when the whole purpose of the mortal probation is supposedly to test the individual's worthiness to become a god?"
|L6=Response to claim: 43-45 - The authors claim that it is official LDS doctrine that Jesus was born because God had sexual intercourse with Mary
|L7=Response to claim: 45 - The assertion that Jesus Christ is God because of His "continued obedience to gospel laws" is in fact, a "diminishing of Jesus"
|L8=Response to claim: 46-48 - The authors claim that the LDS believe Jesus Christ and Lucifer are brothers in the sense that both are in evil cahoots with each other
|L9=Response to claim: 48 - The authors claim that the "Jesus of Mormonism is but one of many saviors"
|L10=Response to claim: 48-49 - The authors take issue with the belief that some Latter-day Saints have that Jesus Christ was married
}}
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==Response to claim: 40 - The authors repeat the common claim that, because Latter-day Saints differ in understanding the traits of the Lord Jesus Christ, they worship "a different Jesus"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Mormonism 101
|claim=
*The authors repeat the common claim that, because Latter-day Saints differ in understanding the traits of the Lord Jesus Christ, they worship "a different Jesus." The authors quote Elder Bruce R. McConkie to lend an authoritative air to their interpretation of what the LDS position is on the matter:
<blockquote>
And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ.
</blockquote>
|authorsources=<br>
#Bruce R. McConkie, '' Mormon Doctrine'', 269.
}}
{{propaganda|Simply put, just because one group has differing opinions about the traits of a Person than another group, it does not follow that those groups are describing different people. Leaving aside the fact that it is not the anti-Mormons who determine what official LDS theology is, several problems remain with this appeal to authority:
#The President of the Church, not any one Apostle, determines official LDS theology.
#Newly formed official LDS doctrine is put forth by the President of the Church in an official statement countersigned either by his counselors or all members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, or both. No one man posits new doctrine alone.
#Although Elder McConkie is much respected as an Apostle of the Lord by the Latter-day Saints, he did not become an Apostle until 1972,<ref>''Church History in the Fulness of Times'' (Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1989), 623.</ref> fourteen years after the first edition of his book, Mormon Doctrine was published.
#Elder McConkie made it clear that he was not speaking ex officio.<ref name="md">{{MD}}</ref>{{Rp|5}}
}}
*{{Detail|Church doctrine/Statements by Church leaders}}

==Response to claim: 41 - "We cannot imagine, for instance, a Baptist telling a Lutheran, 'Our Jesus is basically the one Lutherans worship.' A Presbyterian would not tell a Methodist that he does not believe in the traditional Christ"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Mormonism 101
|claim=
The authors' rationale for declaring that Latter-day Saints follow another Christ is bizarre:
<blockquote>
"We cannot imagine, for instance, a Baptist telling a Lutheran, 'Our Jesus is basically the one Lutherans worship.' A Presbyterian would not tell a Methodist that he does not believe in the traditional Christ. Nor can we imagine a member from the Assemblies of God telling a Wesleyan that the Christ of the Wesleyan Church is mythical."
</blockquote>
}}
{{propaganda|Yet Evangelical anti-Mormons apparently have no problems telling Latter-day Saints that since they do not believe in Christ as defined in the Nicene and other creeds, they are not Christian.
}}
{{:Question: Do Mormons worship a "different Jesus"?}}

==Response to claim: 41 - "Proper belief in the person of Jesus Christ has always been considered essential to Christian fellowship"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Mormonism 101
|claim=
*The authors correctly state that "[p]roper belief in the person of Jesus Christ has always been considered essential to Christian fellowship." 
}}
{{information|Unfortunately, the authors leave unsaid who is the one to determine what is "proper," and how much deviation is permissible. After all, Latter-day Saints fully believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and God in the flesh, just as much as Evangelical Christians do.<ref>Compare {{s|2|Nephi|25|19}} and the [https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/bofm-title?lang=eng title page] of the Book of Mormon with {{b||Hebrews|4|14}} and {{B||John|1|1,3}}.</ref> One must question, though, what the authors think about all the Christians who lived prior to the Council of Nicea. Are the authors willing to dismiss them as non-Christian? Or are they somehow "excused" under an ex post facto rule? They do not say.

If pre-Nicene Christians are somehow "excused," these question remains unanswered: "By what authority do the members of the Council of Nicea impose their "private interpretation" (See {{s||Peter|1|20}}) as official Christian doctrine? And by what authority do they excuse pre-Nicene Christians?
}}

==Response to claim: 42 - "the Mormon Jesus, by becoming a god without having to live a human life on a previous planet, did something that his own 'father' could not accomplish"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Mormonism 101
|claim=
The authors endeavor to interpret what Latter-day Saints say to other Latter-day Saints, quoting Bruce R. McConkie, then telling us what he "really" means:
<blockquote>
He [Jesus] is the Firstborn of the Father. By obedience and devotion to the truth he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while yet in his pre-existent state… Inasmuch, however, as Christ attained Godhood while yet in pre-existence, he too stood as a God to the Other Spirits.
<br><br>
In essence, the Mormon Jesus, by becoming a god without having to live a human life on a previous planet, did something that his own "father" could not accomplish.
</blockquote>
}}
{{misinformation|The authors superimpose their assumptions onto LDS doctrine and commentary. There is no statement by any LDS authority stating that God the Father could not have been God without having lived in mortality. Ignoring the fact that their "interpretation" of Elder McConkie's "essence" has nothing to do with what Elder McConkie actually said, by so inferring that Latter-day Saints are too stupid to know what they believe (or what other Latter-day Saints are saying), the authors grossly insult the intelligence of Latter-day Saints. Further, they, like other critics, claim that only ''they'' can properly interpret and explain what Latter-day Saints believe.
}}
{{:Question: How did Christ achieve deification before mortality?}}

==Response to claim: 42 - "How could Jesus obtain godhood in the preexistence when the whole purpose of the mortal probation is supposedly to test the individual's worthiness to become a god?"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Mormonism 101
|claim=
The authors continue their false "interpretation" of LDS beliefs by asking: 
<blockquote>
"How could Jesus obtain godhood in the preexistence when the whole purpose of the mortal probation is supposedly to test the individual's worthiness to become a god?"
</blockquote>
}}
{{misinformation|The authors get the purpose of mortality wrong (the purpose of mortality is to test whether we would obey God. See {{s||Abraham|3|25}}), so their question is moot. Jesus is God and Satan is His adversary precisely because Jesus passed the obedience test from before His mortality, (See {{s||Hebrews|5|8}} and {{s||Moses|4|2}}) while Satan rebelled. (See {{s||Moses|4|3}})

It is noteworthy that the authors prove the LDS point:
<blockquote>
Paul certainly admonished the Corinthians for accepting a false version of Christ when he said in 2 Corinthians 11:4, "For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." He added:
<br><br>
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.15
</blockquote>

The authors ignore the fact that most of Christianity accepts the extra-biblical Nicene and other creeds to describe Jesus Christ. This substitution of "tradition" for Biblical revelation has been the criticism made by LDS leaders since the days of the Prophet Joseph Smith.<ref name="tpjs">{{TPJS}}</ref>{{Rp|327}} Yet, Joseph Smith and other Prophets accept the Christianity of other denominations:
<blockquote>
Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc., any truth? Yes. They all have a little truth mixed with error. We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true "Mormons."<ref name="tpjs"></ref>{{Rp|316}} 
</blockquote>
*From Brigham Young:
<blockquote>
It is our duty and calling, as ministers of the same salvation and Gospel, to gather every item of truth and reject every error. Whether a truth be found with professed infidels, or with the Universalists, or the Church of Rome, or the Methodists, the Church of England, the Presbyterians, the Baptists, the Quakers, the Shakers, or any other of the various and numerous different sects and parties, all of whom have more or less truth, it is the business of the Elders of this Church (Jesus, their Elder Brother, being at their head) to gather up all the truths in the world pertaining to life and salvation, to the Gospel we preach, to mechanism of every kind, to the sciences, and to philosophy, wherever it may be found in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people and bring it to Zion.<ref>{{JDfairwiki|author=Brigham Young|title=Intelligence, Etc.|date=9 October 1859|vol=7|disc=45|start=283}}.</ref>
</blockquote>
}}
{{:Question: How did Christ achieve deification before mortality?}}

==Response to claim: 43-45 - The authors claim that it is official LDS doctrine that Jesus was born because God had sexual intercourse with Mary==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Mormonism 101
|claim=
The authors claim that it is official LDS doctrine that Jesus was born because God had sexual intercourse with Mary.
|authorsources=<br>
#<br>
*Ezra Taft Benson, ''Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson'', 7, quoted in ''Ensign'' (April 1997), 15.
*''Gospel Principles'', 64.
*{{JDfairwiki|author=Brigham Young|vol=8|disc=27|start=115}}
*{{JDfairwiki|author=Heber C. Kimball|vol=8|disc=54|start=211}}
*Joseph F. Smith, ''Family Home Evening Manual'' (1972), 125-126.
*Bruce R. McConkie, ''Mormon Doctrine'', 547, 742.
*McConkie, ''The Promised Messiah'', 468.
*Talmage, ''The Articles of Faith'', 466-467.
*Talmage, ''Jesus the Christ'', 81.
*''Messages for Exaltation: Eternal Insights from the Book of Mormon'' (1967), 378-379.
*Stephen E. Robinson, ''The Mormon Puzzle'' (video, 1997)
*McConkie, ''The Promised Messiah'', 466.
}}
{{disinformation|It is significant that while the authors quote several LDS Apostles and Prophets to the extent that Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus Christ is literally the Son of God (and Latter-day Saints do believe this), not once do they cite an official source that proclaims that Jesus was not virgin-born. Elder McConkie's assertion that disbelief in Christ's virgin birth is apostate<ref name="md"></ref>{{Rp|822}} is strangely missing, even though McConkie's statement that Jesus is literally God's Son is quoted. Also missing are Book of Mormon statements to that effect.<ref>For example, see {{s|1|Nephi|11|13-24}} and {{s||Alma|7|10}}. It is curious that the authors do not bring up the latter reference, which states that Jesus would be born "at Jerusalem … the land of our fathers." This claim, however, is quite answerable. Anybody who has lived in the Chicago area or who regularly watches WGN-TV would be quite familiar with the term, "Chicagoland," which is used to describe metropolitan Chicago.</ref>
}}
{{:Question: Do Mormons believe that Mary was still a virgin when Jesus was born?}}

==Response to claim: 45 - The assertion that Jesus Christ is God because of His "continued obedience to gospel laws" is in fact, a "diminishing of Jesus"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Mormonism 101
|claim=
The authors further insult the intelligence of Latter-day Saints by claiming that Elder Milton Hunter's biblical assertion ({{s||Hebrews|5|8}}) that Jesus Christ is God because of His "continued obedience to gospel laws" is in fact, a "diminishing of Jesus."
|authorsources=<br>
#Milton R. Hunter, ''The Gospel Through the Ages'', 51, 200.
}}
{{misinformation|The Book of Mormon quite clearly asserts that Jesus Christ is the Eternal God. (See Book of Mormon, [https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/bofm-title?lang=eng Title Page])
}}

==Response to claim: 46-48 - The authors claim that the LDS believe Jesus Christ and Lucifer are brothers in the sense that both are in evil cahoots with each other==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Mormonism 101
|claim=
*The authors claim that the LDS believe Jesus Christ and Lucifer are brothers in the sense that both are in evil cahoots with each other.
|authorsources=<br>
#Kimball, ''Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball'', 32-33.
*Hunter ''The Gospel Through the Ages'', 15.
*Jess L. Christensen, ''A Sure Foundation: Answers to Difficult Gospel Questions'', 223-224.
}}
{{misinformation|This ignores the LDS belief that all beings of spirit (not just Jesus and Lucifer) are children of God, Who is the "Father of Spirits." ({{s||Hebrews|12|9}})

It is  to understand just how the LDS view can be "unchristian" when early Christian saints such as Lactantius held similar views?<ref>Lactantius, On the Workmanship of God. [ http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0704.htm Chapter 19].</ref>

The authors ignore the citation of Hebrews 12:9, which is given by Elder James Talmage and others?<ref>{{Book:Talmage:Articles of Faith|pages=401}}</ref> <ref name="md"></ref>{{Rp|323}}
}}

==Response to claim: 48 - The authors claim that the "Jesus of Mormonism is but one of many saviors"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Mormonism 101
|claim=
*The authors claim that the "Jesus of Mormonism is but one of many saviors."
|authorsources=<br>
#{{JDfairwiki|author=Brigham Young|vol=14|disc=10|start=71|end=72}}
*{{JDfairwiki|author=Brigham Young|vol=7|disc=52|start=333}}
}}
{{disinformation}}
*{{Detail|Jesus Christ/One of many saviors}}

==Response to claim: 48-49 - The authors take issue with the belief that some Latter-day Saints have that Jesus Christ was married===
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Mormonism 101
|claim=
The authors take issue with the belief that some Latter-day Saints have that Jesus Christ was married.
36-40
|authorsources=<br>
#<br>
*{{JDfairwiki|author=Brigham Young|vol=13|disc=35|start=309}}
*Orson Pratt, ''The Seer'', 172.
*{{JDfairwiki|author=Orson Hyde|vol=4|disc=49|start=259}}
*{{JDfairwiki|author=Orson Hyde|vol=2|disc=18|start=81|end=82}}
*{{JDfairwiki|author=Orson Hyde|vol=2|disc=34|start=210}}
}}
{{propaganda}}
{{:Question: Do Mormons believe Jesus Christ was married?}}

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